The vision of God

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear all,

The following quotation is from todays "Dynamis" text, an Orthodox daily readings service:
Let us then direct our attention to the real problem we face in having
God manifest Himself to us - our sin. Thus, Augustine appeals to us,
"Because it is so lovely [the face of God], my brothers and sisters, so
beautiful, that once you have seen it, nothing else can give you
pleasure. It will give insatiable satisfaction of which we will never
tire. We will always be hungry and always have our fill." But the
filling is in the age and life to come. In this present life, sin is
rife in us and everywhere around us. Evil distorts the perception of
the heart, blinds the eyes of the soul, and withholds us from the
manifestation of God. Brethren, let us be about ridding ourselves of
sin as an urgent priority. Let us truly strive against our numerous
infirmities and to seek ever to please the Lord we serve "in every deed
and word" and show that our true desire is to be "a child and heir of
[His] heavenly Kingdom," there to see God's face.
If I am correct in my limited understanding, the bliss of seeing God face-to-Face in heaven is the ultimate reward of the Christian life. All earthly pleasures pale before the satisfaction promised here, and all sinful worldly pleasures can and must be foregone by the active Christian, each to the measure of our strength, in pursuit of this one, ultimate, incomprehensible and ecstatic joy. The purer our nous is when we die, the clearer the vision of God will then be - is that correct?

This also means, I suppose, that the ordinary Christian, as he or she goes about their everyday duties in a rational world where there are solid objects, there is linear time and three-dimensional space, must nevertheless be prepared to believe that somewhere, somehow, in a form and substance we cannot hope to know or understand in mundane terms, there is another level of reality - the Kingdom of God, where the vision of God by saints and angels takes place. By all ordinary accounts and purposes, this is a crazy idea, yet some very intelligent and mature people believe it. Is it just my bizarre interpretation, or is this Orthodox teaching?

In Christ
Byron

[Maria Mahoney]

Dear Byron,

Thanks for asking...


"So long as we live on earth, the revelation of the divine Logos does not affect so much what we see (Christ instead of creatures) as how we see (creatures in their relationship to Christ), as grace enables the mind "to see with knowledge what is [already] in front of it....
The christological focus of Maximus's thinking comes to the fore in his interpretation of the transfiguration. He does not understand the disciples' experience on Tabor as the result of any objective change in Jesus' appearance. Once again, it is a question of being enabled to see what was there all along by virtue of 'a change in the powers of sense that the Spirit worked in the [disciples], lifting the veils of the passions from the intellectual
activity that was in them.'"

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m..._n9251893/pg_5

Developing an apophatic christocentrism: Lessons from maximus the confessor


This was dealt with in depth in the thread Contemplation of the Divine Logos.


Heaven isn't just to see... it is to be in loving relationship with God.

In Christ,
Maria

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Byron wrote:


This also means, I suppose, that the ordinary Christian, as he or she goes about their everyday duties in a rational world where there are solid objects, there is linear time and three-dimensional space, must nevertheless be prepared to believe that somewhere, somehow, in a form and substance we cannot hope to know or understand in mundane terms, there is another level of reality - the Kingdom of God, where the vision of God by saints and angels takes place. By all ordinary accounts and purposes, this is a crazy idea, yet some very intelligent and mature people believe it. Is it just my bizarre interpretation, or is this Orthodox teaching?

Yes I do believe so. Many saints such as St Seraphim of Sarov, the Optina Elders & of course many Greek Elders such as Joseph the Hesychast & Paisios lived in the world of the Kingdom you refer to while also living in this one.

What's striking though is that sometimes it is cultures which are also closer to this reality. Right now I am reading the book Elder Cleopa of Sihastria (Romania). Throughout the book there are many references to how frequently the people of that country and time lived in that other reality.

Perhaps you have seen this in Greece or on Mt Athos? I saw it especially on Mt Athos. Somehow this also marks a person in that other discussion we are having about the Church. To see such Elders, to feel to some small extent the grace of the world they constantly live in- from this one knows it is us who do not constantly see the reality of that other world the Church refers to who are without sight. The saints see reality.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Herman Blaydoe]

A story that I thought was useful was told by a Russian priest to a communist inquirer about why he believed in something he could not perceive with his five senses. The priest said something to the effect: "Do you not know that right now, in this room, voices are speaking, music is playing and images are present? The communist replies "I know no such thing." The priest then informs the inquirer that radio and television signals are passing through them at this very moment, isn't he aware of that, can't he "see" them? The inquirer replies that yes, of course he knows about radio and television signals and of course he cannot see them or hear them because he doesn't have an antenna to receive them at the moment. The priest replies, just so is our awareness of God. Through worship and asceticism we create an "antenna" that allows us to perceive God.

Or as Shakespeare says: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Hamlet Act 1 Scene V)

[Andrew]

Byron wrote:



Yes I do believe so. Many saints such as St Seraphim of Sarov, the Optina Elders & of course many Greek Elders such as Joseph the Hesychast & Paisios lived in the world of the Kingdom you refer to while also living in this one.

What's striking though is that sometimes it is cultures which are also closer to this reality. Right now I am reading the book Elder Cleopa of Sihastria (Romania). Throughout the book there are many references to how frequently the people of that country and time lived in that other reality.

Perhaps you have seen this in Greece or on Mt Athos? I saw it especially on Mt Athos. Somehow this also marks a person in that other discussion we are having about the Church. To see such Elders, to feel to some small extent the grace of the world they constantly live in- from this one knows it is us who do not constantly see the reality of that other world the Church refers to who are without sight. The saints see reality.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

This is exactly what I felt in the presence of a holy Athonite elder, who was a spiritual son of Elder Joseph. I saw so clearly that this man was above the shifting, fallen nature of the world... Paradise dwelt within his heart, and it radiated out of him. His eyes were like fire. I clearly saw my own frailties and sin in his presence... to see what man is meant to be, it is extraordinary. And this was just seeing him, receiving his blessing, and watching him. To think of living with such men!

[Nina]

"The uncreated light is a living of the Kingdom of God, it is the food of heaven. But in the parallel there is a foretaste of the good things to come. The Transfiguration shows what the Kingdom of God is and what the future state will be. The Godman will be in the midst of the deified, who will rejoice in the presence and the glory of God to different degrees and with varying participation in uncreated grace. "God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods" (Ps. 82, 1). Christ, and the Holy Trinity in general, will be God by nature, and the saints will be gods by participation and by grace. Therefore the coming Kingdom, just like our presence in the Church, is not a gathering of pious people, but a congregation, a church-going of gods by grace, in fact "deified by Him Who is God by nature" (St. Symeon of Thessalonica)." pp.170-171

"... the connection of the Kingdom of God with the Transfiguration of Christ indicates that the Kingdom of God is the vision of the uncreated grace and the glory of the Trinitarian God in the human nature of the Word, and is indeed the deification of man." p.152

"The Church and the divine Eucharist can be called the Kingdom of God, if those who live in it attain the vision of the uncreated glory of God, which is the real Kingdom. If we speak of the Church and the Kingdom of God and do not link them with seeing God, the vision of the uncreated light, we are making a theological error. Moreover, the sacraments of the Church manifest the Kingdom of God and guide man to it, precisely because they are closely connected with the purifying, illuminating and deifying energy of God." p.153

The Feasts of the Lord by Metropolitan of Nafpaktos, Hierotheos

[Effie Ganatsios]

A story that I thought was useful was told by a Russian priest to a communist inquirer about why he believed in something he could not perceive with his five senses. The priest said something to the effect: "Do you not know that right now, in this room, voices are speaking, music is playing and images are present? The communist replies "I know no such thing." The priest then informs the inquirer that radio and television signals are passing through them at this very moment, isn't he aware of that, can't he "see" them? The inquirer replies that yes, of course he knows about radio and television signals and of course he cannot see them or hear them because he doesn't have an antenna to receive them at the moment. The priest replies, just so is our awareness of God. Through worship and asceticism we create an "antenna" that allows us to perceive God.

Or as Shakespeare says: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Hamlet Act 1 Scene V)

This is a good analogy.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Byron wrote:



Yes I do believe so. Many saints such as St Seraphim of Sarov, the Optina Elders & of course many Greek Elders such as Joseph the Hesychast & Paisios lived in the world of the Kingdom you refer to while also living in this one.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

And also Mother Gabriela, according to those closest to her. One thing I would like to add is that both Elder Paisios and Mother Gabriela avoided talking about this aspect of their lives and both considered it to be the most important. Both were humble people and both lived in silence for a certain number of hours each day. This "living in silence" was their conduit to God. "Be still and know that I am God". Gabriela spoke of her angels, Paisios at one point said that the icon of the Theotokos at Jerusalem was the closest to what our Holy Theotokos looked like - little gems that overflowed from their secret spiritual life.

These are rare people though, people who were capable of submitting their whole lives - spiritual and physical - to God's Will.

We are now into the 7th day of the Dormition Fast and each day is precious with our prayers and remembrance of the Theotokos. After reading what Elder Paisios said about this particular Icon I bought a copy of it from a monastery and it is indeed one of the most beautiful I have seen.

Effie

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear all,

This is my second attempt to reply, as the server went down just after I submitted my previous message.

Fr Raphael writes
Perhaps you have seen this in Greece or on Mt Athos? I saw it especially on Mt Athos. I've never been on Mt Athos unfortunately. Even if I did, I doubt I would be susceptible to having an experience like Andrew describes:
I saw so clearly that this man was above the shifting, fallen nature of the world... Paradise dwelt within his heart, and it radiated out of him. His eyes were like fire. I clearly saw my own frailties and sin in his presence... to see what man is meant to be, it is extraordinary. And this was just seeing him, receiving his blessing, and watching him.

I fear that my capacity to detect holiness in others is severely limited. I am much more able to see their many faults; the way their enthusiasm subtly restricts mine, the quick flash of vanity across a face that seems otherwise kindly disposed. And I'm talking about the "good" people here! The others, the ones I encounter on a daily basis I don't even mention! Of course I realise this harsh judgement of others is not only un-christian, but also just as likely to involve the projection of my own meanness onto them, in other words to be itself false or only partially true (since projections are generally not random occurrences, but simply distortions or exaggerations of things which do exist). Either way, my trust in others is dashed to bits, severely undermined by life experiences and my nervous predisposition! I wouldn't know a saint if I were living with one!

I'm more hopeful of having such an experience through an encounter with the natural world. I do see that the cosmos, on those rare occasions when humans have not messed around with it too much, or when there has been a reasonably sensitive hand of human attention applied to a landscape, is indeed a gem. And, if there is a Being Who is both Artist and Substrate of this gem, this must be a Being worthy of worship.

All this is still very logical and philosophical though. I'm still waiting for my moment I guess. Prayers would be very helpful here perhaps.

In Christ
Byron

[Nina]

And also Mother Gabriela, according to those closest to her. One thing I would like to add is that both Elder Paisios and Mother Gabriela avoided talking about this aspect of their lives and both considered it to be the most important. Both were humble people and both lived in silence for a certain number of hours each day. This "living in silence" was their conduit to God. "Be still and know that I am God". Gabriela spoke of her angels, Paisios at one point said that the icon of the Theotokos at Jerusalem was the closest to what our Holy Theotokos looked like - little gems that overflowed from their secret spiritual life.

These are rare people though, people who were capable of submitting their whole lives - spiritual and physical - to God's Will.

We are now into the 7th day of the Dormition Fast and each day is precious with our prayers and remembrance of the Theotokos. After reading what Elder Paisios said about this particular Icon I bought a copy of it from a monastery and it is indeed one of the most beautiful I have seen.

Effie

Yes, I love that piece of information from Geronda Paisios and the icon 'Theotokos of Jerusalem' is beautiful.