Do Coptic Christians pray for those in hell?

[Tom Cook]

I was reading an article recently by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev called "Orthodox Worship as a School of Theology", and I was surprised to come across the following quote:-



Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell. I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail.


Is this correct? If it is, can anyone cite any patristic evidence to reveal the "mind of the Church" one way or the other?

Here is the original article ...

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

In the third set of kneeling prayers at the Vespers on the Sunday of Pentecost it is written:


...Who on this all-perfect and saving Feast hast vouchsafed to accept the supplicatory prayers of forgiveness for them that are held in Hades; Who grantest us great hope that unto the departed held in the bondage of grief, there be sent from Thee rest and refreshment...

In monastic and oral tradition one can hear many accounts of those who prayed for those in hell and provided them with relief. Some even have been delivered from hades as a result of these prayers. Many of these accounts are written down.

As for Copts not praying for those in hell: knowing the state of our own people and the fact that Copts do pray for us it seems quite clear that Copts do pray for those in hell.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mourad Mankarios]

In the third set of kneeling prayers at the Vespers on the Sunday of Pentecost it is written:


These are the exact same prayers, which were also said at the Vespers on the Sunday of Pentecot in the Coptic Church, which have now unfortunately been scrapped from all service books...

[John Charmley]

The traditional Litany for the Departed contradicts more modern Coptic teaching, since this last seems to reflect a more Protestant view (which is where the influence may have come from) that the fate of the soul is determined at its death.

The traditional Litany of the Departed begins thus:

Deacon: Pray for our fathers and brothers who slept and reposed in the faith of Christ since the beginning. Our saintly fathers the archbishops, and our fathers the bishops, our fathers the Archpriests, our fathers the priests and our brothers the deacons, our fathers the Monks, and our fathers the laymen, and for the full repose of all the Christians, that Christ our God will repose all their souls in the Paradise of Delight. As for us, may He be merciful to us and forgive us our sins.

After the Kyrie, the traditional service goes on:

Priest: Graciously, O Lord, repose all their souls in the bosom of our fathers the saints Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Sustain them in green pastures by still waters in the Paradise of Delight, the place from which sorrow, distress and sighing have fled, in the light of Your saints. Raise their bodies on the day You have appointed according to Your faithful and true promises. Grant them the blessing of Your promises what eye has not seen, nor ear has heard, neither has entered into in the heart of Man,
that which You, O Lord, have prepared for those who love Your Holy Name. For there is no death for Your servants, but merely a departure. Any negligence or carelessness that has overtaken them as human beings living in this world of flesh, then You, as the Good God and Lover of Mankind, graciously forgive them.
Your servants, O Lord, Your Christian Orthodox servants who are in the world from east to west, every one by his own name and every one by her own name: graciously, O Lord, repose them all. For no-one is undefiled even if he lives a single day on earth. As for those, O Lord, whose souls You have taken, repose them and grant them that they will deserve the Kingdom of Heaven. As for us, grant us all, O Lord, Christian perfection which pleases You.

Mourad is quite correct in stating that the Coptic Vespers at Pentecost contained the same prayer as the Russian service, and that the Synod in Alexandria has subsequently removed them.

In Christ,

John

[M. Markewich]

Interesting but sort of disturbing. I was told, too, by a Coptic leader that they don't pray for those in Hell. The example of one man who died while committing a mortal sin was given. My friend, another Copt, asked him, "Well, how does the Church know he's in Hell?" The response was that, since the man died in a state of sin and no time to repent, he cannot be saved. How anyone can really know who repents and who doesn't is beyond me.

[John Charmley]

Interesting but sort of disturbing. I was told, too, by a Coptic leader that they don't pray for those in Hell. The example of one man who died while committing a mortal sin was given. My friend, another Copt, asked him, "Well, how does the Church know he's in Hell?" The response was that, since the man died in a state of sin and no time to repent, he cannot be saved. How anyone can really know who repents and who doesn't is beyond me.

Dear Matt,

Me too. Better to leave it to the only Just Judge - as He does it any way.

INXC,

John

[Mourad Mankarios]

Interesting but sort of disturbing. I was told, too, by a Coptic leader that they don't pray for those in Hell. The example of one man who died while committing a mortal sin was given. My friend, another Copt, asked him, "Well, how does the Church know he's in Hell?" The response was that, since the man died in a state of sin and no time to repent, he cannot be saved. How anyone can really know who repents and who doesn't is beyond me.

I think this is more with regards to the funeral prayers. The Coptic church justifies not praying on a person who is in a state of sin or who died while committing a sin making the same correlation with suicide and why the church doesn't pray on a person who has taken their own life.

[Tom Cook]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. I think it is a great shame that such liturgical revision has been allowed to happen in the Coptic Church, and agree entirely with what Bishop Hilarion says in his excellent article (see my first post).

As he argues, liturgical texts are "a school of theology" ...



Orthodox divine services are a priceless treasure that we must carefully guard. Similar services were once celebrated in other Christian communities, but over the centuries they were lost as a result of both liturgical and theological reforms.



In my view, liturgical texts are for Orthodox Christians an incontestable doctrinal authority, whose theological irreproachability is second only to Scripture. Liturgical texts are not simply the works of outstanding theologians and poets, but also the fruits of the prayerful experience of those who have attained sanctity and theosis. The theological authority of liturgical texts is, in my opinion, even higher than that of the works of the Fathers of the Church, for not everything in the works of the latter is of equal theological value and not everything has been accepted by the fullness of the Church. Liturgical texts, on the other hand, have been accepted by the whole Church as a “rule of faith” (kanon pisteos), for they have been read and sung everywhere in Orthodox churches over many centuries. Throughout this time, any erroneous ideas foreign to Orthodoxy that might have crept in either through misunderstanding or oversight were eliminated by Church Tradition itself, leaving only pure and authoritative doctrine clothed by the poetic forms of the Church’s hymns.



During this conversation with the Metropolitan I expressed my thoughts on how one could go very far and even lose important doctrinal teachings in the pursuit of correcting liturgical texts. Orthodox liturgical texts are important because of their ability to give exact criteria of theological truth, and one must always confirm theology using liturgical texts as a guideline, and not the other way round. The lex credendi grows out of the lex orandi, and dogmas are considered divinely revealed because they are born in the life of prayer and revealed to the Church through its divine services. Thus, if there are differences in the understanding of a dogma between a certain theological authority and liturgical texts, I would be inclined to give preference to the latter. And if a textbook of dogmatic theology contains views different from those found in liturgical texts, it is the textbook, not the liturgical texts, that need correction.


(Emphasis mine)

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Dear John,


The traditional Litany for the Departed contradicts more modern Coptic teaching, since this last seems to reflect a more Protestant view (which is where the influence may have come from) that the fate of the soul is determined at its death.

I believe that conclusion to be a little hastily drawn John. Though I personally disagree with the Holy Synod's decision and patiently await the Holy Spirit to move the Coptic Church to re-align herself with her traditional position on the matter (something which will hopefully take place through dialogue with other Churches as this matter receives a more ecumenical awareness), there does seem to be a Scriptural and Patristic basis upon which the sentiment that those in hell cannot be helped is based. As far as I recall, the Gospel anecdote concerning Lazarus and the rich man, and St John Chrysostom's eschatological teaching (that those in hades have lost their chance to repent) seem to have been invoked as relevant to the decisions in question. Nevertheless, I agree wholeheartedly with Bishop Alfeyev's reaction to the situation; I just don't think blaming this on "Protestant influence" has any sound basis whatsoever.

Just to be clear, our sister Churches have not followed suit with this, nor with a number of other, in my opinion, rather un-called for and at times absurd decisions by the Holy Synod in the recent decade, and, as I said, I do await for our sister Churches, particularly the Syrians and the Armenians--who prove to be much more theologically capable than the Coptic heirarchs of these last few decades--to put us back in check with the faith our Coptic Church has held consistently for the last two millenium. Local synods have erred in history a number of times, and the Holy Spirit has never failed to ultimately overcome and rectify such human error.

In IC XC
Athanasius

[John Charmley]

Dear Athanasius,

I am indebted to you for your correction, and certainly see where the Synod's decision might be coming from. I guess that the Syrian influences on the BOC might mean we are closer to their view, which is certainly one more in line with what the Church taught for many years. I wonder if there is an element of warning against any Roman Catholic notion of Purgatory in the Synod's decision?

As you rightly say, the Spirit leads the Church right.

In Christ,

John

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Dear John,

It is good to see that the changes in question have not been adopted by the BOC, though I wonder how this could be so given that the BOC is under the authority of the Coptic Patriarchate.

I mentioned in my previous post my hope that issues like this be raised to the awareness of the Syrians and the Armenians in particular, who I trust would put the current leaders of the Coptic Church in check on this issue, but now that you mention the BOC I would hope that H.E. Metropolitan Seraphim raise a voice of concern over the matter also, especially given his close connection with the Synod.

In any event, as you note, the Coptic Liturgy still contains many prayers for the departed which are part of the "annual" Liturgical texts which I don't think the Synod would dare to revise. The very rationale underlying the very existence of these prayers seems to contradict the Synod's decision regarding the Pentecost kneeling prayers, even if they are not as explicitly directed to those in hades; for why would we bother praying for the departed in the first place if their condition and destination are sealed without any potential for change? Such would ofcourse be superfluous. Here is another prayer on behalf of the departed, in addition to the ones you've brought forth, which remains in the Coptic Liturgy of St Basil:


PRIEST: Those, O Lord, whose souls you have taken, repose them in the paradise of joy, in the region of the living forever, in the heavenly Jerusalem, in that place, and we too, who are sojourners in this place, keep us in your faith, and grant us your peace unto the end.
Source: http://www.coptic.net/prayers/StBasilLiturgy.html

If those whose souls the Good Lord has taken are destined to either paradise or hades at the point of death, then why would we bother pleading to God every Sunday that He repose the souls He has taken to the paradise of joy to begin with?

In IC XC
Athanasius

[John Charmley]

Dear Athanasius,

Interesting points, with which I am in entire agreement.

I shall ask Metropolitan Seraphim for his view.

I suspect there is something here to do with fears about the Roman doctrine of Purgatory, but perhaps we should continue this one elsewhere, as it mayhap lies outside local TOU?

INXC

John

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Dear John,

Indeed, I will leave it that and you and I can discuss this issue further elsewhere. But the question was raised, so it had to be answered, and that answer, to sum it up, is: yes, Copts do pray for those in hades, it is implicit in the many prayers for the departed which remain in our ancient Liturgical texts in spite of the recent removal of those more explicit clauses from the Pentecost kneeling prayers--an unprecedented innovation which many of us Copts do hope to see rectified soon.

In IC XC
Athanasius

[Tom Cook]

I suspect there is something here to do with fears about the Roman doctrine of Purgatory



John,

I found the following podcasts very useful in clarifying my understanding of the Orthodox understanding of Hell, and would recommend them highly. They show, I think, how a conflation of two very distinct concepts (Hades and Gehenna) necessitated the invention of the concept of Purgatory in the West.

Hell: A Modest Proposal
Purgatory
He Shall Come Again In Glory
Memory Eternal: Praying for the Dead

http://www.ancientfaithradio.com/podcasts/carlton/P5/

In the first of these podcasts, Clark Carlton distinguishes between Hades/Sheol/Infernos and Gehenna. The first of these, Hades, refers to the abode of the dead or to the state of sorrowful anticipation of those who were not united with Christ in this life (Hades is the "place" to which Christ descended after His Crucifixion); the second, Gehenna, refers to the state of final damnation of the wicked after the Second Coming and the Last Judgment. Unfortunately, both of these terms are routinely translated with the same word - Hell.

Although this earthly life is the arena within which we seal our eternal fate, prayer for those in Hades can be justified in the same way that we can justify praying for those who are still alive. We need to remember, though, that any release from Hades must be rooted in what we did during our earthly lives. Carlton uses the following extract from "The Brothers Karamazov" to elucidate this point ...


Once upon a time there was a peasant woman and a very wicked woman she was. And she died and did not leave a single good deed behind. The devils caught her and plunged her into the lake of fire. So her guardian angel stood and wondered what good deed of hers he could remember to tell to God; 'She once pulled up an onion in her garden,' said he, 'and gave it to a beggar woman.' And God answered: 'You take that onion then, hold it out to her in the lake, and let her take hold and be pulled out. And if you can pull her out of the lake, let her come to Paradise, but if the onion breaks, then the woman must stay where she is.' The angel ran to the woman and held out the onion to her. 'Come,' said he, 'catch hold and I'll pull you out.' he began cautiously pulling her out. He had just pulled her right out, when the other sinners in the lake, seeing how she was being drawn out, began catching hold of her so as to be pulled out with her. But she was a very wicked woman and she began kicking them. 'I'm to be pulled out, not you. It's my onion, not yours.' As soon as she said that, the onion broke. And the woman fell into the lake and she is burning there to this day. So the angel wept and went away.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/dostoevsky/karamozov/files/book07/chapter03.html

[Mourad Mankarios]

Just to be clear, our sister Churches have not followed suit with this, nor with a number of other, in my opinion, rather un-called for and at times absurd decisions by the Holy Synod...

Dear Miaphysite,

As someone who tends to follow closely the movements and decisions of the Coptic Holy Synod I was wondering what other decisions you are referring to above.

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Dear Mourad,

Given that the focus of the initial inquiry lies outside the repeatedly defined and clarified scope of this forum, I was expecting this thread to either be deleted or locked. I responded so that in the event of the latter course of action being pursued, there can at least stand a Coptic perspective for anyone reading the thread to consider. I do think I would be pushing it, however, if I were to follow the tangent you are directing me towards, but I would be more than happy to discuss any of the issues in question further via PM.

In IC XC
Athanasius

[Mourad Mankarios]

Dear Mourad,

Given that the focus of the initial inquiry lies outside the repeatedly defined and clarified scope of this forum, I was expecting this thread to either be deleted or locked. I responded so that in the event of the latter course of action being pursued, there can at least stand a Coptic perspective for anyone reading the thread to consider. I do think I would be pushing it, however, if I were to follow the tangent you are directing me towards, but I would be more than happy to discuss any of the issues in question further via PM.

In IC XC
Athanasius

Sure, I can understand your sentiments. If you'd like to PM me your views to the above I'd really appreciate it.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Athanasius,

Thank you for drawing everyone's attention to the fact that this topic, whilst quite interesting, does not have any bearing on the focus of this forum. As such, it will be good to close it so as to focus back on the raison d'etre of this community.

Thanks though to the participants for an interesting tangent!

INXC, Matthew