The Cloud of Unknowing

[Rick Henry]

Dear All,

I picked up a copy of The Cloud of Unknowing (Bernard Bangley) last night, and I've started reading through it. And, I am wondering if any here [like Celinda or Herman] may be able to give me a heads up on this one. I appreciate the balanced/even handed reports from some in the past [like Celinda's and Hermans's]; however, I am wondering if any can help me get a sense on how this book is received within Orthodoxy.

I did a search and found a thread on this book in relation to centering prayer, but I am starting this thread in the hopes of avoiding the topic of centering prayer. Hopefully, we will not get tangled up in that anyway.

I found two comments in the other short lived thread that apply here:




It's also recommended by Mother Gavrilia in the biography of the same name.







It has been a long time since I read Cloud but the important thing to look for in any "esoteric" text: is it just esoterica, or is it grounded in obedience to the commandments and the practical pursuit of virtue?



and, I appreciate Owen' comment about esoterica for esoterica sake, but I wonder if any have any help for the likes of me with this one [like say . . . Celinda or Herman]?

Thank you.

In Christ,
Rick

[Herman Blaydoe]

Herman can only plead that he is currently engulfed in his own cloud of unknowing about The Cloud of Unknowing, but it sounds like a western endorsement of apophatic theology and perhaps hesychastic prayer?

[Mary]

Herman can only plead that he is currently engulfed in his own cloud of unknowing about The Cloud of Unknowing, but it sounds like a western endorsement of apophatic theology and perhaps hesychastic prayer?


LOL =)

I was thinking something similar, when I saw the title of the thread... "This perfectly describes how I feel all the time..."

Rick, when I saw that it was you who started the thread, I thought maybe you were surrendering, and giving up the endless discussions and admitting that all the conversations have only just muddled you up! =)

(That should remind me not to make so many assumptions without hearing the whole story!)

Mary

[John Charmley]

Dear Rick,

I suspect that one of the things this all shows is how little parts of the Christian tradition know about other parts; much of what is written here (and elsewhere) about the 'west' and scholasticism is, at best, only partly so; there are other parts of Catholic tradition which are profoundly mystical, and I can see how your interest in St. John of the Cross might have brought you to this beautiful 14th century treatise written by a monk whose name has not been carried down the years, but whose work provides a living link between Dionysius the Areopagite and St. John of the Cross.

As you will know, the work was one of a number of mystical treatises, including the first English translation of the work of Dionysius - indeed it is usually said that the writer of the Cloud of Unknowing was the same person who translated the work of Dionysius. By tradition, he was a Carthusian (the austerities of that order were marked by others, even at that time of spiritual revival). Those here who have wondered about how to contemplate the Lord whilst surrounded by those engaged in chatter, will find some humours - and instructive comments here, not least about self-will and selflessness.

You ask how he is regarded within Orthodoxy; I fear I have no idea. His writings and those of the Hesychasts have much in common, and, along with the writings of St. John of the Cross and other Catholic mystics, should have given those Orthodox aware of them pause for thought before describing 'western' Christianity as scholastic, as though that it is the only strand to be discerned in a rich tradition of spirituality.

I find a strange and beautiful encouragement in the fact that in fourteenth century England the following should have been written:


Our intense need to understand will always be a powerful stumbling block to our attempts to reach God in simple love [...] and must always be overcome. For if you do not overcome this need to understand, it will undermine your quest. It will replace the darkness which you have pierced to reach God with clear images of something which, however good, however beautiful, however Godlike, is not God.

It was true when 'Dionysius' wrote like this, true when the anonymous Carthusian wrote these lines - and it remains so. I hope the reading brings you the peace of spirit it has brought to so many over the centuries.

In Christ,

John

[Rick Henry]

Perfect Peace/Harmony

Dear Herman, Dear John,

Herman, thanks for weighing in on this, your comments are appreciated. And, John, after reading your post, all I can say is thank you brother. Your post is so good that now I almost don't even care about the book--as you have quoted 'Dionysius:'




Our intense need to understand will always be a powerful stumbling block to our attempts to reach God in simple love [...] and must always be overcome. For if you do not overcome this need to understand, it will undermine your quest. It will replace the darkness which you have pierced to reach God with clear images of something which, however good, however beautiful, however Godlike, is not God.



I am very grateful for this gift. Yes, reading this does bring peace of spirit and balance, centering. It seems like the older I get the more I appreciate and need such grounding.

As I consider your suspicion that there is ignorance to be found within the separate parts of the Christian tradition (viz. ignorant of each other), I agree completely, this is very obvious. But, this is not a good type of unknowing or a darkness from which comes light; this is a kind of ignorance from which comes only separation and dysfunction. So as it relates to this way of knowing, this chatter, I have no questions. It does not take much examination (dokimaso) to clearly understand this fog or this esoteric purple haze.

And, we are commanded in the Scriptures to prove, to try, to examine what is of God and what is not of God. But, there is a balance here for us all even though we do not all have the same calling. An extreme or profound ignorance that results in separation and dysfunction hinders union/communion, just as the opposite of this, an intense need to understand, does in the above quote.

So possibly, the message here is when we realize that we have become unbalanced and are in need of a centering/grounding, we can again just stop, and move back to the middle ground. For some this may require a positive disengagement, for others a positive engagement. Ultimately, within this middle ground we see Johns and Pauls, and Marys and Marthas . . . we see the Cappadocian theologians and others with a vow of silence, we see varied forms of activity and passivity. Just as our Lord Jesus Christ was at times active and at other times passive, as He was at times very direct and at other times indirect, it is clear that there is not one way for all as it relates to a philosophy of Christian living. Anyone who thinks that there is has never read the Scriptures.

And, as we consider 'the need to understand' or the need to 'stand under' right belief we move at light speed to our old friends "Faith" and "Understanding."

As it relates to both 'knowing' and 'unknowing,' and as it relates to being, what do "clear images" have to do with faith? What does the seen have to do with the unseen in this way? That's right, nothing. Just as the one who stands with her fingers in her ears singing "God Bless America" and opting for the purple haze that obscures any and all "clear images" is out of balance, so is the man who only strives for union with God by means of clear images or systematic ways, steps, etc.

So possibly once again we have pointed to a middle way here in which neither thinking nor contemplation is rejected, and whereby there is examination, proving, and trying involved in the contemplative life. Lest we fall into a full blown agnosticism none are excluded by the one who follows the commands of our Lord and our Lord Himself.

Thank you for this balanced view John, thank you for this shalom-shalom. This is IT. Even here our ontology models a transcending of divisions which are in fact artifical separations. There is no primacy of faith or understanding, there is no primacy of knowing or unknowing, there is no primacy of East or West. These divisions are what is "muddled up" Mary.

IT is not either/or IT is both/and; however, IT is a Common Ground that one recognizes and finds tenable or one does not.

Your brother in Christ,
Rick

[Richard Long]

Greeting Rick,

I quickly read this topic. Many good ideas have been mentioned. I think that whatever you read.. be it this book ( The Cloud of Unknowing ) or any other.. if you know what prayer is and what it isn,t then you will be more able to appreciate what you are reading.

Unfortunately there are many books that contain some erroneous notions along with the good and useful and interesting.

Prayer is so fundamental that we are called to <<always pray>>.

Christ taught us to pray.

His Mother was the greatest of pray-ers.

We are taught to use few words…to be human …to pray as human beings.. children of God..the first word Christ pronounces when he teaches us to pray is… << Abba >>… Father..

We are encouraged to persevere in prayer…to trust our Heavenly Father.

Prayer doesn,t require clever use of the imagination or intellect…nor physical strength or health…Its simply opening your heart to your <<Abba>>.

Rick, I think that this reality.. that we are all children of our Eternal Father.. is perhaps the common ground that you are referring to ?

JMJ,

Richard

[Rick Henry]

Dear Richard,

Thanks very much for the contribution here. I still hope to hear about how this text is received within Orthodoxy; however, it is an honor to have you here posting.

And, before I go any further, I have to attempt to remedy a situation here. I thought a discussion of this book and centering prayer should be kept separate (primarily because of a negative reaction to centering prayer by some here--I thought it would just get in the way). But, I am only up to page 18 in my copy, and I can see very quickly that this may not be possible, in fact I am embarrassed now for suggesting that we should keep the two apart, based on my early reading. So the moderators may see fit to move these posts to the original thread or vice versa.

But, this aside, yes Richard . . . I agree and appreciate what you say about knowing what prayer is and what prayer is not ('be it this book or any other!') And, when you say:





Rick, I think that this reality.. that we are all children of our Eternal Father.. is perhaps the common ground that you are referring to?



I think yes, not only a common ground of prayer of contemplation/contemplative living, a true Catholicity, but a common destiny, as another who appreciated the fact that No Man Is An Island wrote in his prologue:




First of all, although men have a common destiny, each individual also has to work out his own personal salvation for himself in fear and trembling. We can help one another to find out the meaning of life, no doubt. But in the last analysis the individual person is responsible for living his own life and for "finding himself." . . . Others can give you a name or a number, but they can never tell you who you really are. That is something you yourself can only discover from within.



And, I appreciate his use of the word 'discover' in this last sentence. But, as we consider such discovery and working out for ourselves as is mentioned here, there is a degree of freedom that is neccessitated I think.

And, knowing that 'anxiety is the mark of spiritual insecurity' (which we all deal with from time to time) I wonder if you may help us to move beyond a theology of anxiety, as we may consider what prayer is and what it is not. And, as it comes to such a question as this, again as has been said:




There is the laziness that pretends to dignify itself by the name of despair, and that teaches us to ignore both the question and the answer.



But, I wonder if we may possibly begin exploring the prayer that is presented here in this book, in the Cloud? To be honest with you, I am seeing some teachings here, especially as it may relate to an intergral method that parallel conclusions that I have come to in just the past week or so, as well as a path in this book that seems familiar to me.

But, yes Richard, what prayer is and what prayer is not.

Thanks again.

In Christ,
Rick

[Tim Grass]

Dear Richard,

Thanks very much for the contribution here. I still hope to hear about how this text is received within Orthodoxy; however, it is an honor to have you here posting.



What are you talking about? Some people have read it. It hasn't been "received" in Orthodoxy. It's read pretty much like every other piece of Catholic mystical writing....... some good stuff, some bad. But it's never held a status of being "received" in any special way.

A silly quest.

--tim

[Rick Henry]

Dear Tim,

When someone asks how something is received, usually, as I was asking, the question is, is it regarded favorably or with disapproval (viz. 'Her new collection of poems was not well received'). So there is no implication of special/official status in a question like this.


Thanks for your input though, I think I see where you are coming from.

In Christ,
Rick

[Richard Long]

I think yes, not only a common ground of prayer of contemplation/contemplative living, a true Catholicity, but a common destiny, as another who appreciated the fact that No Man Is An Island wrote in his prologue:
Quotation:

First of all, although men have a common destiny, each individual also has to work out his own personal salvation for himself in fear and trembling. We can help one another to find out the meaning of life, no doubt. But in the last analysis the individual person is responsible for living his own life and for "finding himself." . . . Others can give you a name or a number, but they can never tell you who you really are. That is something you yourself can only discover from within.


Discovering our True selves is witnessing the work of God within us. It does take time and perseverance. Grace teaches us to differentiate our True selves with our superficial selves and to appreciate the joy of discovering our True identity.



But, as we consider such discovery and working out for ourselves as is mentioned here, there is a degree of freedom that is neccessitated I think.


So true ! Thomas Merton, a christian mystic who wrote prolifically, spoke many times of the use of our God-given freedom...

As for a Common Ground Rick...
Its normal that Christians have a desire to foster unity between followers of Christ. I somehow think that we are moving in that direction ..let us pray and do what we can to promote understanding and unity. Its a fine work to offer to God: unity and peacemaking.

The << Cloud >> is from a monastic tradition of lectio divina, meditation and, of course, contemplative prayer. Its no wonder that Centering Prayer found in the <<Cloud>> its genesis: the religious who brought us Centering Prayer have a deep understanding of the roots and origines of this type of prayer. Its my opinion that Centering Prayer is a work in progress and you will note how, in time, the wisdom of the fathers of the desert and other elements will become more integrated with Centering Prayer. Centering Prayer came to life while parallels between East and West were being explored by Christian contemplatives. In other words in a time of openess and understanding.. one of the fruits was Centering Prayer. Its been very useful to many who wish to foster a deeper relationship with their God.
As for the <<Cloud>> .. in its pages there is a sound basis for the practice of prayer and this for both monastic or secular individuals. However, I believe that Centering Prayer is more evolved and willl continue to evolve towards a total prayer life which integrates elements condusive to both contemplation and living the Message of Christ.


JMJ,

Richard

PS: My English is on the weak side since I normally speak another language. Thank you for your understanding.

[Richard Long]

Greetings Rick,

Also relative to the value of the << Cloud >> is the fact that the author is a seasoned contemplative who is an experienced teacher of spiritual ways. This is evident in some of the many subtle yet useful recommendations he provides. For instance, he cautions against strain. This is common among beginning practicioners of less discursive forms of prayer.

I agree with what you mentioned in previous posts.. that time in the <<unknowing>> or <<centering>> should be balanced according to each individual within the context of a Christian life.

As regards the definition of prayer, whether its one form or another (lectio, liturgy, psalms, centering etc. ) perhaps you might want to consider the word(s) you use as wrapping and what is in your heart as what you offer to God.

JMJ,

Richard

PS. Again, thank you for your kind words and welcome.

[Rick Henry]

Dear Richard,

Thank you very much for this beautiful post above. This is one for me to sit with this morning, and hopefully respond to later. Actually, I think I am providing more of a pointer than anything else now, as your posts are delayed for a bit until you move to community member status. However, I do think it is possible that I have just recently become a 'learner' of Grace in the way you have indicated, and am just now really learning to appreciate the "joy" of discovering my True identity. As our Lord Jesus Christ has shared with us:




"These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

John 15:11




Thank you for the words that you have spoken Richard. May we know the joy of Christ, that our joy may be full.

In Christ,
Rick

[Father David Moser]

Rick,

You have asked a number of times about the Orthodox response or "reception" of the book "The Cloud of Unknowing". It's been a loooong time since I have read this (about 30 years ago) so the details are foggy, however, as I recall this book is pretty much a standard expression of the Roman Catholic visualization centered type of "meditation" which has no place in Orthodoxy. The author is NOT Orthodox and he writes only within the medieval Roman context of this kind of spiritual exercise. This type of exercise incorporates a number of elements (particularly in my recollection that of the techniques of "visualization") which are not a part of Orthodox spirituality and in fact which we as Orthodox are specifically instructed to avoid.

I know that you may well write my response off as just another one of my intolerant opinions, but you did in fact ask - not once but repeatedly. I still don't understand why it is that you find it so necessary to leave behind the vast wealth of solidly Orthodox fathers in search of the scraps of truth that might be found mixed with error outside the Church (when you can find the whole and pure thing in the Church). But then I'm just a bit of a reactionary, having been too many place and done too many things which I now regret.

Fr David Moser

[Rick Henry]

I know that you may well write my response off as just another one of my intolerant opinions, but you did in fact ask - not once but repeatedly.



Dear Father David,

Thank you very much for this reply. I appreciate your clear and direct answer--this is the kind of answer am looking for. Actually, I wonder if you could hear me laughing over there in Utah when I read the above quote! :) I just had lunch, so maybe my blood sugar is up a bit, but this struck me as funny, and if you were here I would have tried to give you a quick and very manly hug and tell you that I don't think this is an intolerant opinion, but I respect this as being your sincere thought on the matter. And, I do appreciate you sharing this with me. I think I am learning that you may just be a very straight shooter, a straight talker, possibly a former resident of NYC? ;) I actually lived in the Queens when I was 4 years old.

And, when you say:




I still don't understand why it is that you find it so necessary to leave behind the vast wealth of solidly Orthodox fathers in search of the scraps of truth that might be found mixed with error outside the Church (when you can find the whole and pure thing in the Church). But then I'm just a bit of a reactionary, having been too many place and done too many things which I now regret.



I am not sure why you as others assume that I have left the Orthodox fathers behind! :) This is somewhat comical to me as well to be honest with you (at least for as long as my blood sugar is up). I have more Orthodox books around me now, as in the recent past, and around my bed than any other type of book. If my room wasn't so messy right now with books and papers etc., I'd snap a photo of where I am sitting and you would recognize by the covers, I think, the Orthodox books (Orthodox as defined by this site) that I am reading. I read more than the average bear, and more than one book at a time, but I read Orthodox writers as well as non-Orthodox writers. If this were a Roman Catholic site, I'd probably try to find out what they think of the our 'little Philokalia set' :) and Zizioulas.

And, I don't want to go into this anymore here lest this thread go the way of the St. John of the Cross thread. But, your question is very fair and I would like to move forward with this possibly in a different thread when I have more time to devote to this worthy question/exploration.

I know what you mean about been there and done that and present regrets; but, I think there are way too many assumptions by some of the folks here. In fact, I would ask at this point, why are some so suspicious and quick to jump to conclusions with no basis in reality?

There is a defensiveness to the point of being overly defensive by more than a few here for example. It's not a healthy thing. We are commanded to be sober and alert and vigilant because our enemy is on the prowl, but there is a dynamic here that goes beyond this.

Otherwise, possibly I am not getting much response here on my question about the "Cloud" because no one else has read it and is in a position to offer an answer?

But, ultimately, please know that I am not writing you off here, but I am saying thank you. I haven't read anything of visualization yet, but thanks to you I will be looking for this in case you are not "foggy" on the 'Cloud' with this comment.

When I finish the book then if there is writing about the visualization that we are to avoid, then I will know that there is. But, if there is no writing about visualization then I will know that as well . . . but, it occurs to me now to ask the question:

As it relates to centering prayer, when it comes right down to it what is the difference between centering prayer as written of by the Christian mystics in the Roman Catholic Church and the prayer of the heart as written of by the Christian mystics in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

If we bullet point these differences, what would be on this list, and how long would this list be?

Or, if we bullet point the similarities, what would be on this list, and how long would this list be?

In Christ,
Rick

[Richard Long]

Greetings Father Moser,

My posts take so long to show up that by the time they arrive they seem like they are sent to the wrong thread.


You said << It's been a loooong time since I have read this (about 30 years ago) so the details are foggy....>>.. With all due respect.. I don,t think you will find visualisation(s) in the <<Cloud>>.

<<Never strain your mind or imagination.. Leave these faculties at peace>> Chapter 4 ..The Cloud of Unknowing.

I wish you lots of sunshine Father..no cloudy or foggy...unless of course its the good type of cloud..and I hope we all participate in the joy Rick mentioned in his post.

All of the Best,

JMJ,

Richard

[Michael Stickles]

Father David,


This type of exercise incorporates a number of elements (particularly in my recollection that of the techniques of "visualization") which are not a part of Orthodox spirituality and in fact which we as Orthodox are specifically instructed to avoid.

That kind of specific instruction would be very interesting to me -- do you have any reading suggestions? I'd like to evaluate some of my own spiritual practices, but since they're informed by so many different traditions at this point that I don't always remember what came from where, I might miss some if I tried asking about them one-by-one. It might be better to have some specific teaching that could "jar my memory".

Rick,


Otherwise, possibly I am not getting much response here on my question about the "Cloud" because no one else has read it and is in a position to offer an answer?

Probably true. I know I haven't read it, which is why I haven't jumped in before.


As it relates to centering prayer, when it comes right down to it what is the difference between centering prayer as written of by the Christian mystics in the Roman Catholic Church and the prayer of the heart as written of by the Christian mystics in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Celinda had touched on this back in the Heart of Salvation thread:


I read Keating's book and started doing Centering Prayer. ... It helped me quiet my mind, but I wanted more then that. I was looking for God in my prayers. Centering prayer helped me to detach from sensible realities, but not to attach to God.

... When I went to talk to Fr. John ... he suggested I try the Jesus prayer. ... The effort of concentrating my desire for God on the words as a way to touch the reality behind them solved the disunion I had been experiencing and I can tell that the regular practice of this is going to be much better then centering prayer.

... We use the sensible to reach the non-sensible. It seems to me that the rejection of the sensible as a way of attempting to reach the non-sensible is always going to bog down in quietism somewhere. ...This lack of object is why centering prayer is popular among the new agey types and why they are able to use it.

I might quibble a bit, as I found it more helpful than she did and was able to "attach to God" (or, as I would put it, "turn my attention to God") through the practice. But on the whole it's a good description. However, it is in terms of personal experience rather than doctrine or practice; I imagine you were thinking along all three lines?

In Christ,
Mike

[Rick Henry]

Dear Mike,

My experience has been as yours. And, yes all three. Thank you sir.

In Christ,
Rick

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I would like to express my agreement with Fr David about centring prayer.

Orthodox prayer is of many different types. No psychological 'calming' types of prayer though are practiced by us even though we have been aware of this type of prayer for so very long now.

Why is this? Others I am sure can offer a more full answer but somehow it may have to do with the fact that the psychological man tends towards self-satisfaction. He does not perceive that behind the self-created goal he has set himself through this form of prayer (peace, calmness, being well adjusted, etc) lies at the end of the day- still only himself. The danger is that precisely in such a psychologically motivated state the role of self-satisfaction is even less perceived than before.

The types of prayer we practice always consciously stand away from centring on this psychological aspect of ourselves. It is true prayer that prayer touches the psychological part of what we are- since prayer affects the whole person.

But still the purpose of our prayer is to awaken the noetic sense within us. And it does this by having us always stand mentally before real persons- the Holy Trinity, Christ, the Theotokos or the saints.

For us prayer must not be in order to satisfy or center on what are purely human aspects of ourselves- as real as these aspects are. The danger here is one of selfishness through satisfying oneself as the goal.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Richard Long]

Greetings Father Raphael,

Here are some quotes from the 1980 book << Centering Prayer...Renewing an Ancient Christian Prayer Form >>.. It defines the prayer.. I hope this helps you to understand it.

<< Our heart is set upon the Lord. We are in deep prayer, in heart-to-heart communion with our Lord. We may not have the same sense of satisfaction we might have if we could sense a peace and an integralness. But we do not seek our own satisfaction. We pray in response to God,s love, to give our hearts to Him. The rest is inconsequential. >>

<< This is what Centering Prayer aims at: being who we really are,... in virtue of what happened at Baptism: the Son to the Father in the Holy Spirit, which is perfect love, which is perfect prayer. >>

I enjoyed reading your post Father. May God bless you.

JMJ,

Richard

[Mary]

I am not sure why you as others assume that I have left the Orthodox fathers behind! :)

You don't really have to be so unsure. If you truly want to know, I'd be glad to tell you why I feel you're not interested in the teachings of the Orthodox Fathers. All you need to do is ask. =) No one is sqeamish about expressing their opinions here.



Otherwise, possibly I am not getting much response here on my question about the "Cloud" because no one else has read it and is in a position to offer an answer?


I haven't read the book. I didn't think it necessary to use up space just to say I haven't read it.

Mary.

[Rick Henry]

Dear Richard,

My day is drawing to a close quickly here, and it appears that I will not be able to respond to your posts as I had hoped. However, as you suggested:




Its normal that Christians have a desire to foster unity between followers of Christ.



I couldn't possibly agree more. Thanks again for these words along with what you wrote about the joy that is ours as we discover our True identity. I have a feeling that I am not the only one who has benefited from what has been shared from your pen today.

Possibly, we can pick up again tomorrow with our consideration of the 'Cloud'
and what prayer is and what it is not.

In Christ,
Rick

[Michael Stickles]

As it relates to centering prayer, when it comes right down to it what is the difference between centering prayer as written of by the Christian mystics in the Roman Catholic Church and the prayer of the heart as written of by the Christian mystics in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

I wanted to come back to this (no attempt at bullet points, though, and I'll be jumbling experience, doctrine and practice).

While I found the practice of centering prayer useful, I think it's because I went a bit beyond how it is normally taught -- and I suspect, Rick, that you probably did as well. Let me use as a starting point an excerpt from the article "The Danger of Centering Prayer" at catholic.com (bold emphasis is mine):


The book often claimed as a precedent for centering prayer is The Cloud of Unknowing, by an unknown fourteenth-century English author. But the claim is in vain, for The Cloud of Unknowing clearly repudiates the emphasis given in centering prayer to techniques: "I am trying to make clear with words what experience teaches more convincingly, that techniques and methods are ultimately useless for awakening contemplative love." The Cloud must be seen in its historic context. Though its emphasis is on the "negative way," we must remember that it presupposes its reader is well grounded in the "positive way" to God by means of the word of God, creation, and sacramental means. When this prerequisite is met, a book like this can help prayer to go beyond creatures to the Uncreated God. But to see The Cloud as pointing us to technique (as centering prayer does) is profoundly to misread the text.

Ignoring the bits about technique, I suspect that those of us for whom centering prayer has proved beneficial have had that grounding in the "positive way" in some manner, so that what we practice is closer to the medieval mystics than to Keating's modern technique (technically, we might not even be doing true "centering prayer"). Without that grounding, all you have is a variant of any of a number of New Age meditative practices. Certainly it is "unknowing" in a sense, but without any grounding, how do you know who or what it really is that you know in unknowing?

Centering prayer is really pretty doctrine-less; it claims nothing about who or what God is (except in vague terms), or how we stand in relationship to Him. Prayer of the heart, however, is very much the opposite. The traditional form is "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." This simple prayer asserts Christ's lordship, His relationship to the Father, our state as sinners, our need for His mercy, and our submission to Him -- in a mere 12 words.

I think that it is probably far, far easier to go astray through centering prayer than prayer of the heart. I know from the fruit that centering prayer was beneficial for me -- especially the times when the felt presence of God drove me to repentance for sins I'd forgotten about until then. But among the 20+ other people I've done centering prayer with, none shared about experiencing any similar fruit. Most instead seemed to exemplify Father Raphaels warnings about "self-satisfaction" and being "psychologically motivated" (I can't judge their hearts, but that's the story their own words told me).

It's late and my brain is shutting down, so if I think of anything else it'll have to wait until tomorrow (actually, later today).

In Christ,
Mike

[Richard Long]

Greetings Rick,

Thank you for the kind words.

I suspect that the centering prayer teachings of Father Keating may be different than those of M Basil Pennington. I have looked into the definition of the prayer since reading here about some who have had less than desirable results.

Here are some quotes from the 1980 book << Centering Prayer...Renewing an Ancient Christian Prayer Form >>.. It defines the prayer..

<< Our heart is set upon the Lord. We are in deep prayer, in heart-to-heart communion (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Communion) with our Lord. We may not have the same sense of satisfaction we might have if we could sense a peace and an integralness. But we do not seek our own satisfaction. We pray in response to God,s love, to give our hearts to Him. The rest is inconsequential. >>

<< This is what Centering Prayer aims at: being who we really are .in virtue of what happened at Baptism (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Baptism): the Son to the Father in the Holy Spirit, which is perfect love, which is perfect prayer. >>

This is Basil Pennington,s take. Can Fr. Keating,s be that different ?

Relative to promoting Christian unity.. the teachings of Christ and the fruits of the HolySpirit guide us in that direction. We co-create peace and unity with the Spirit. It is at once a priveledge and a responsability.

It would be interesting to do a separate thread on finding our True Selves and how this changes our perspectives as Christians.

JMJ,

Richard

[Rick Henry]

Dear Mike, Dear Richard,

Mike, thanks for your late night post. I know what you mean when you speak of your brain shutting down, mine seems to go all at once at night at times. Mike, when you said:




While I found the practice of centering prayer useful, I think it's because I went a bit beyond how it is normally taught -- and I suspect, Rick, that you probably did as well.




I thought to myself, this Mike guy has such a high rate of accuracy here that this is starting to get a little spooky! But, then it occurred to me that I don't think we have established what is normally taught here.

Regarding the "Cloud" we had one 'foggy' report from Fr. David that we are dealing with visualizations, but based on my reading and a report from Richard, this information seems to be incorrect.

Fr. Raphael weighed in next concurring with Fr. David and then went on to speak of self-satisfaction in centering prayer. But, based on my reading/research this is not an accurate portrayal either.

So possibly, we may try to get a start here by understanding what centering prayer is (viz. how it is normally taught).

And, to this end, Richard has contributed:




Greetings Father Raphael,

Here are some quotes from the 1980 book << Centering Prayer...Renewing an Ancient Christian Prayer Form >>.. It defines the prayer.. I hope this helps you to understand it.

<< Our heart is set upon the Lord. We are in deep prayer, in heart-to-heart communion with our Lord. We may not have the same sense of satisfaction we might have if we could sense a peace and an integralness. But we do not seek our own satisfaction. We pray in response to God,s love, to give our hearts to Him. The rest is inconsequential. >>

<< This is what Centering Prayer aims at: being who we really are,... in virtue of what happened at Baptism: the Son to the Father in the Holy Spirit, which is perfect love, which is perfect prayer. >>


JMJ,

Richard

When I read of the heart-to-heart communion with our Lord, this brings to mind the Psalm (42:7) that speaks of deep calling unto deep.

But, I wonder if we can use Richard's contributions as a basis to grasp what is commonly taught. I dont' feel comfortable taking the lead here, so I won't (for now anyway ;) . . . but, I am under the impression that there is a contemporary school of teachers from Merton to Pennington, Keating, Main, and Freeman that have given us what is commonly called centering prayer or Christian meditation. I've got Pennington and Keating on the shelves (as well as a helpful book by Fr. John Ryan Prayer of Heart and Body: Meditation and Yoga as Christian Spiritual Practice which traces the history of our subject); however, I am coming away with the impression that modern day centering prayer is a very specific way or technique that is a means to an End, just as Hesychasm is.

Possibly, Richard, when you use the term centering prayer, you have in mind what is presented directly in the "Cloud" or the "Dark Night" of St. John of the Cross? Possibly, Mike, when you use the term you have in mind taking a very specific technique?

I'm sorry that I have not been able to keep up with this thread on a timely basis, I seem to have fallen behind in some ways here at Fort Apache (my house) . . . but thanks to all, and yes Richard, hopefully very soon a new thread just as you have suggested!

On to centering prayer and the prayer of the heart . . .

In Christ,
Rick

[Kieran P.]

Hi friends,

I've been following this excellent thread with great interest and not a little trepidation since everyone seems to inspire me more and more to want to read The Cloud of Unknowing - which I have had on my shelf at home for years!

An interesting cross reference book (if I may call it that) is written by the Trappist monk, Thomas Merton, called The Ascent to Truth.

http://www.amazon.com/Ascent-Truth-Thomas-Merton/dp/0156027720/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-8971705-8287642?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187123936&sr=1-1

Merton discusses the mystical traditions in Catholicism, most especially among St John of the Cross and St Thomas Aquinas, but really quite technically.

He describes what he feels is "false mysticism":


not every vision is from Heaven. The important thing to remember is that even if they are supernatural, these experiences are not the essence of true mysticism. They are only accidental to it...it follows that all visions and locutions are in a certain sense opposed to true contemplation.


It is not false mysticism to have visions, but it is false to make mysticism essentially consist of visions. It is also false mysticism to attribute greater importance to visions, locutions and private revelations than to the truths revealed by God to the Church...

His book is firmly in the apathetic tradition of mysticism and contemplation, with strong warnings against fantasy or lazy mysticism which is self serving. I think that Fr Raphael wrote most wisely about that.

By the way, often we must approach Thomas Merton's books with a degree of caution, given that we must know a bit of his motives before we attribute to him things which aren't there, but this book is an excellent one for anyone looking to discover how to distinguish the cloud from the fog.

God bless and keep well...

[Michael Stickles]

Possibly, Mike, when you use the term you have in mind taking a very specific technique?

Yep. The method I learned is essentially the same as what is described at http://www.centeringprayer.com/methodcp.htm. A condensed description is:



1. Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within (instead of a sacred word a simple inward glance toward the Divine Presence or noticing one’s breath may be more suitable for some persons).

2. Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.

3. When engaged with your thoughts (i.e., sense perceptions, feelings, images, memories, plans, reflections, concepts, commentaries, and spiritual experiences), return ever-so-gently to the sacred word.

4. At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes.


They say it's not a technique, but elsewhere say it is a method; I'm not sure what the difference is, but oh well. The description of "what it is" (aside from methodology) given on the website is:



In the Christian tradition Contemplative Prayer is considered to be the pure gift of God. It is the opening of mind and heart - our whole being - to God, the Ultimate Mystery, beyond thoughts, words, and emotions. Through grace we open our awareness to God whom we know by faith is within us, closer than breathing, closer than thinking, closer than choosing - closer than consciousness itself.

Centering Prayer is a method designed to facilitate the development of Contemplative Prayer by preparing our faculties to receive this gift. It is an attempt to present the teaching of earlier times in an updated form. Centering Prayer is not meant to replace other kinds of prayer: rather it casts a new light and depth of meaning on them. It is at the same time a relationship with God and a discipline to foster that relationship. This method of prayer is a movement beyond conversation with Christ to communion with Him.

The source of Centering Prayer, as in all methods leading to Contemplative Prayer, is the indwelling Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The focus of Centering Prayer is the deepening of our relationship with the living Christ. It tends to build communities of faith and bond the members together in mutual friendship and love. “Be still and know that I am God.” Psalm 46:10

Listening to the word of God in Scripture (Lectio Divina) is a traditional way of cultivating friendship with Christ. It is a way of listening to the texts of Scripture as if we were in conversation with Christ and He were suggesting the topics of conversation. The daily encounter with Christ and reflection on His word leads beyond mere acquaintanceship to an attitude of friendship, trust, and love. Conversation simplifies and gives way to communing. Gregory the Great (6th century) in summarizing the Christian contemplative tradition expressed it as “resting in God.” This was the classical meaning of Contemplative Prayer in the Christian tradition for the first sixteen centuries.


The primary modifications I made to this in my personal practice (without really thinking about it at the time):

(1) What I wanted was not a state of rest without thoughts, but a state of constant, waiting attention on God. The "sacred word" was to bring my attention back to this attentive state (usually instead of a word, I used the mental intentional equivalent of lifting my hands in supplication -- not sure how else to describe it).
(2) When disengaging with thoughts, I took a brief moment for discernment, to make sure I wasn't ignoring anything that might be having a negative influence (whether from within or without).
(3) I did not think of God as being located within me, but as being kind of beyond location; it was more that He was meeting me in that "place" of prayer.

I'm sure there are other differences, but those are what stand out to me at the moment.

In Christ,
Mike

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Fr. R. weighed in next concurring with Fr. D. and then went on to speak of self-satisfaction in centering prayer. But, based on my reading/research this is not an accurate portrayal either.

Quote on centring prayer in post above:


<< Our heart is set upon the Lord. We are in deep prayer, in heart-to-heart communion with our Lord. We may not have the same sense of satisfaction we might have if we could sense a peace and an integralness. But we do not seek our own satisfaction. We pray in response to God,s love, to give our hearts to Him. The rest is inconsequential. >>

<< This is what Centering Prayer aims at: being who we really are .in virtue of what happened at Baptism: the Son to the Father in the Holy Spirit, which is perfect love, which is perfect prayer. >>

This above does not correspond to what prayer should mean for us. The aim and methods are both very different.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

As Fr Raphael suggested, it is important here to realize what prayer actually is. I would like to refer again to the sermons of St Theophan the Recluse on prayer (http://www.monachos.net/library/Theophan_the_Recluse%2C_Four_Homilies_on_Prayer) which are in the patristics library on Monachos. Here he gives us basic (that is for us beginners) instruction in both the technique and the goals of Orthodox prayer. Again, perhaps rather than searching for the grain of truth mixed with confusion, it is best to go to a pure source.

Fr David Moser

[Richard Long]

Greetings Mike, Rick and Father Raphael,

Mike...What an interesting post !

Very interesting are the subtle and occasionally not so subtle differences in definition and process that the above author has with M. Basil Pennington,s views and descriptions.

Common to both Pennington and the above text is the importance of Lectio.. the << daily encounter with Christ and reflection on His Word >>. The life of the Trinity in each of us grows and flourishes through our sincere efforts to know and please God through our prayers.

Mike, I particularly appreciate you sharing with us how you personalized the prayer. This is one of the reasons I have come to this forum.. to learn of how others live their prayer lives.. their relationships with God. Once again, thank you.

Rick, its a pleasure to read your posts: your elucidations are interesting, articulate and, at times, thought provoking.
I must admit I have not followed the origins or development of centering prayer except through the writing of M Basil Pennington. I have seen an interesting evolution: as a good spiritual father, he wants readers to learn to incorporate regular contact with the Word of God into their prayer lives. He emphasizes this even more in later works. My suspicion is that he will next be elaborating much more about readings of the desert fathers. He has written over 50 books and I particularly like his down to earth style.

Father Raphael,

Thank you for responding to my post.
You said..
<< This above does not correspond to what prayer should mean for us. The aim and methods are both very different.

In Christ- Fr Raphael >>
Could you please elaborate Father ? I look forward to reading your view.


May God bless you,

JMJ,

Richard

[Richard Long]

As Fr Raphael suggested, it is important here to realize what prayer actually is. I would like to refer again to the sermons of St Theophan the Recluse on prayer (http://www.monachos.net/library/Theophan_the_Recluse%2C_Four_Homilies_on_Prayer) which are in the patristics library on Monachos. Here he gives us basic (that is for us beginners) instruction in both the technique and the goals of Orthodox prayer. Again, perhaps rather than searching for the grain of truth mixed with confusion, it is best to go to a pure source.

Fr David Moser
Greetings Father Moser,

I have reread the words of Father Basil (above ) and they are acceptable as far as I can determine. May I ask what notion(s) in his works does not suit you ?

May God bless you,

JMJ,

Richard

[Rick Henry]

Dear Kieran,

Thanks for the referral and quotes, these are helpful to my research/seeking. I appreciate what is said here of a false mysticism in relation to what Fr. R. has said elsewhere about created light and uncreated light, as well as what he has said about the path of Christ and other paths. As has been said there is good outside of the Church, but I will take fresh corn on the cob to canned corn everytime!


Dear Mike,

Thank you very much[!] for bringing such a high degree of clarity to this conversation. The condensed version that you have shared is exactly what I have learned as well. In addition to what you have shared, the Cloud says in chapter 34 of the initial stages of prayer:




Be passive as contemplation becomes active, an observer rather than a participant. You can do nothing to help, and your interference will spoil everything.



I have found in the beginning stages of prayer that a non-contrived beginning is best for me. Or, possibly the better term here is spontaneous. While a sitting position seems to be the rule, I do not predetermine the use of a word, or 'glance,' or awareness of breath, as the author of the 'Cloud' says in the same chapter:




Experience will demonstrate that in contemplation we have no need of special techniques. Orderly procedures are worthless. The best methods depend upon God's activity, but God's activity depends on nothing.



Possibly, this speaks to what you have said above when you say, ". . . I'm not sure what the difference is . . ." As the Apostle Paul said to the Ephesians, "Be being filled with the Spirit," he was speaking of a yielded state, a surrendered state on our part whereby we become passive and we are passively filled to overflowing with the Spirit of God. And, this is spoken in the imperative, so we are commanded to be being filled with the Spirit in just this way. We are commanded to be controlled by the Spirit, to be consummed by the Spirit, and Paul says just before this, in the imperative as well, we are not to be foolish, but we are to *understand* this, just as Christ gave Himself up for us in love, as an offering, as a sacrifice, as a fragrant aroma, we are to have this as our (contemplative) lifestyle. We are to walk in Light and in Love, we to walk as wise men and women whereby we do not give ourselves over to darkness and participating in the unfruitful deeds of darkness but we are dokimaso! --we are proving, trying to learn, finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. As Paul also says:




Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,

Eph 5:17-18



We are not to be consumed with wine and controlled by wine, but we are to consume the Spirit and be controlled by the Spirit--we are to consume the Consumer and be consumed by the Consumer. And, this is done on our part by striking a passive pose. So while we may use varying methods to attempt to strike this passive pose for ourselves, we do see varying methods employed at times in the initial stages to help calm our monkey minds, in the End, there is no need of special techniques or orderly procedures, in fact an overemphasis on what we are doing can just spoil everything. Ultimately though, I think we see that the best methods depend 'absolutely' on God's activity.

In fact, I challenge anyone to provide one verse of Scripture that speaks of our "being" renewed in the spirit of our minds in any way other than in the passive voice--passively. We can see passages in the Scriptures whereby the steps leading up to this transformation this renewal are spoken of in the middle voice, the reciprocal, what I do for myself, what my part is; but, the writing of the Apostles and Saints in the Scriptures of our being filled and our being renewed in our minds always as a passive process. Think about this! How could it be any other way if it is a Work of the Holy Spirit? We do not renew ourselves. We are commanded to strike a passive pose, to yield, to submit as a prelude to a filling of the Spirit or a renewal of our minds, and this is something that we do for ourselves, to position ourselves to be a recipient of God's Grace, that we may be being filled (yes ontology modeling epistemology!), that we may truly know God; however, all of this only supports everything that is being said here recently from Beginning to End. This is God's design, this is the Divine Design, this is the way He has engineered IT to "be!"

And, now I realize that I am just preaching away . . . so I will stop and try again later to address this "topic."

But, who can see this? As it relates to this topic, or any other topic here in monachosland, how can any claim to be pursuing the Pursuer or attempting to prove, to try, to learn what God's will is if this one basic principle of the Scriptures is not clearly understood?

No matter what we say, we are conformed to this world if we are not transformed. This process has God as the Divine process engineer. This isn't the Cloud's teaching. This isn't the teaching of the Roman Catholic mystics, or the Eastern Orthodoxy mystics, or the Protestant Holiness teachings, this is not the teaching of any one "particular" group! This doctrine is not unique to any one Faith Tradition or denomination. There is no exclusive claim to this teaching to this way of living, to this philosophy of Christian living. This is the Word of God.

When we present all of our mental and physical faculties as a living sacrifice, when we place our entire being on the alter, this is our part, this is our spiritual service to God, and this is when we are positioned to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, so that we may dokimaso what the will of God *is.* So that we may know what is good and what is perfect and what is acceptable.


Aim and methods?


The aim, the target, the objective, is clear. As for methods and techniques how could the Apostle Paul possibly be more clear!

Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

In Christ,
Rick

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Father Raphael,

Thank you for responding to my post.
You said..
<< This above does not correspond to what prayer should mean for us. The aim and methods are both very different.

In Christ- Fr Raphael >>
Could you please elaborate Father ? I look forward to reading your view.

The first thing we must do when we wish to know about prayer is to have the attitude of the disciple who asked Christ, "Lord, teach us to pray." (Luke 11: 1)

In this question is summed up the first and necessary step in order to learn how to pray.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rick Henry]

Or, the way of the cross?





The first thing we must do when we wish to know about prayer is to have the attitude of the disciple who asked Christ, "Lord, teach us to pray." (Luke 11: 1)




And, after Christ taught them to pray, the Good Doctor Luke reports Christ said (beginning in Luke 11:9):





9"And I say to you, ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. 10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it shall be opened. 11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"


Yes, the attitude of the one who asked for instruction is most significant; however, divorced from knowledge or not in accordance with knowledge, attitude of this sort seeks to establish one's own righteousness and in fact does not want to subject itself to anything whereby ignorance is bliss, but this is not the type of fog, or unknowing that is desirable (viz. a very sophisticated system of non-surrender under the guise of submission).

As the Apostle Paul offers the ultimate summation to the legalists of his day:




Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.

For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Romans 10:1-4




Again we consider aim and arrows, and come to the same conclusion.


In Christ,
Rick

[Richard Long]

Greetings Father Raphael,


The first thing we must do when we
wish to know about prayer is to have the attitude of the disciple who
asked Christ, "Lord, teach us to pray." (Luke 11: 1)

In this question is summed up the first and necessary step in order to
learn how to pray.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

Yes, I agree Father.

I think its clear that although there are many types of prayer (
Jesus prayer, contemplation, discursive, intercessory and so on ) ..
prayer has some common characteristics that are timeless and integral.

Do you remember your first prayers Father ? I would very much
like to hear about your first prayers. Anyone want to add here ?

For me, as far as I can remember.. my first year in school..our
teacher was a consecrated woman (nun).. and she told us that we should
consider leaving some room on our chairs for our guardian angel. And so
we sat to one side and welcomed and prayed to our guardian angel to
protect us from harm.

We thanked God for our food at mealtime and asked him to bless
our food.

Before sleep we knelt at our bedside asking Jesus to keep us safe
through the night and to take our souls if we should perish before we
woke.

When we were told about how Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilote
it made us sad.

Having worked in a ward for children who are terminally ill, I
can suspect that sometimes God is more moved by the simple trusting
prayers of children than by those of many adults. Its very possible
Father, for you, for me , for others reading this post.. that our best
prayers were said when we were youths. Why is that ? Why would it be
possible that our prayers be more pleasing to God then than now ? There
are many reasons why... I think its preferable to allow each of us to
answer that for him (her) self.
One reason could be...
"And I say to you, ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and
you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. 10 "For everyone
who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it
shall be opened. 11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son
for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12
"Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will
he? 13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your
children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit
to those who ask Him?"

As we mature we sometimes lose our child-like trust.. we ask for
spiritual or temporal help..but often instead of having faith... we
contrive a Plan B..
Its a fact.. our lack of trust is painful to God..we should
encourage one another to have faith..to trust in God..If we as
Christians do not spread Hope and Joy... then who will ?

As children our prayers are simple,direct, human, from the heart.
Later in life as we continue to follow Christ.. we should remember His
words << unless you become as little children, you cannot enter the
Kingdom of God... >> and our prayers and lives should reflect His
wishes.
God Bless you Father,

JMJ,
Richard

[Rick Henry]

Dear Richard, Father David, Father Raphael, and All,

Richard--thank you for your contributions to this thread, they are much appreciated. I still hope to pick up with some things that you have introduced here as they relate to both theory and practice (as well as build on the foundation Mike has laid so well), but I am hoping that we can do a little housekeeping first, and attempt to level off somewhat now that we have reached a certain altitude.

I don't think I have ever quoted Mr. Grass before, but I guess there is a first time for everything:




What are you talking about?



as he says this, I am wondering the same thing today. Initially, we had the suggestion that visualizations and self-satisfaction on a psychological level were promoted in the Cloud; but, after some investigation we found this to be incorrect.

After this discovery, as we made a move to gain a toehold on our topic, the following was presented:





Again, perhaps rather than searching for the grain of truth mixed with confusion, it is best to go to a pure source.

Fr David Moser







This above does not correspond to what prayer should mean for us. The aim and methods are both very different.

In Christ- Fr Raphael



And, these are some pretty dogmatic statements to which there have been two requests so far for clarification or support of what is being said.

1.) As it relates to The Cloud of Unknowing, can we provide one example of confusion in this book?

2.) When we say 'the aim and methods are both very different,' can we provide one example of how these are very different?


I understand that there are different schools of thought to be found within both the East and the West, but as it relates specifically to the Cloud and our discussion of prayer, can we support our assertions?

In Christ,
Rick

[Father David Moser]

1.) As it relates to The Cloud of Unknowing, can we provide one example of confusion in this book?

2.) When we say 'the aim and methods are both very different,' can we provide one example of how these are very different?


As I said, its been 30+ years since I read the book and I have no intention of reading it again for the sake of this argument. I'm pretty sure that I tossed my copy of the book in one of my many library "purges" of unimportant and unuseful books made whenever I run out of shelf space. I have little enough time to read the things that are really useful than to waste my time repeating a mistake.

Fr David Moser

[Rick Henry]

Dear Richard, Mike, Kieran, and ALL,

As we pick up with our consideration of contemplative prayer through this vehicle, and now that I have given The Cloud one run through, I am struck by two things the author of The Cloud stresses at the very beginning and the very end of his book.

He really stresses the point here that he did not intend this book for everyone. And, he wants the reader to read all of it or none of it.

Out of all the books that I have had in my hands over the years, I don't think I have ever seen this before. In the very beginning of his book the author writes:




In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Here is a message for the unidentified person who is holding this book. Whether you own it or have borrowed it, whether you are taking it to someone else or intend to read it yourself, please respect the special nature of its contents. This book is for devout followers of Christ . . . If such a person does read this book, or hear it read aloud, it may not make any sense. Therefore when you read it, be sure to read the entire book. AS the text develops, you will find an answer on a later page. To read only a section means that you will be taking a passage out of context, and this could be misleading.

I do not intend this book for everyone. I do not want clever clerics and self-appointed critics discussing it. I would prefer they never see it. I did not want them involved with it. I prepared this book for souls inclined to contemplative prayer. Perhaps by God's grace, this book may be a helpful source of guidance.



Then in the second to last and the last chapter of this book he writes:




I mentioned this at the beginning. If you pass this along to someone else, give him or her the time to digest it. No one should flip through its pages, reading a little here and a little there. Let your friend read from cover to cover. Perhaps a question occurs at the beginning or at the middle that is not fully explained right then, but will be later on. Whoever reads one section and not the others could easily fall into error. I plead with you do as I say.

As for the chatterboxes, the rumormongers, the gossips, the tattletales, and the faultfinders of every kind, I do not want them to see this book. I never intended to write on this subject for them, and I do not want them tampering with it. This also applies to the clever clerics and the lay people. Regardless of their good involvement in the active life, what I have to say here is not for them.



And, then the author of The Cloud goes on to speak of those who "feel a resonant response." And, I think it was here that it occurred to me that this is where we may find a real boundary line, so to say. As it relates to contemplation, what sounds right to you? Barring the fact that God has given to some in the past a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not (Rom 11:8), as David has said (Rom 11:9) for some their table has become a snare and a trap, and a stumbling block to them whereby the 'eye' is darkened and sees not . . . with our subject at hand either there is a 'resonance' and a resonant response or there is not.

This is not an intellectual thing. The recognition of what is being presented is recognized with a mystical heart. It echoes and rings true or not, and in this sense it really is God's gift for which we should respond in humility and love, and gratitude And, as the author develops the point that indiscretion can produce discretion, the point is also made that dangers can lurk in the shadows of ignorance, so we should at the same time be alert, sober, and vigilant.

We should examine everything carefully and hold fast to that which is good. (Thes 5:21)

In Christ,
Rick

[Richard Long]

Greetings Rick,



He really stresses the point here that he did not intend this book for everyone. And, he wants the reader to read all of it or none of it.

Out of all the books that I have had in my hands over the years, I don't think I have ever seen this before. In the very beginning of his book the author writes:....

And, then the author of The Cloud goes on to speak of those who "feel a resonant response." And, I think it was here that it occurred to me that this is where we may find a real boundary line, so to say.

We should examine everything carefully and hold fast to that which is good. (Thes 5:21)


You are right, the intro of the << Cloud >> is very unique indeed...while certain christian mystics caution readers.. the author of the << Cloud >> goes much further. I believe the <<resonant response>> may be assisted by grace in some cases.. if its God,s will that some write about their experiences.. and here we can go back to St Paul.. one of the first Christian mystics ....then no doubt He uses these writings to speak to our hearts...Many christian writers have left us with a record of their pursuit of the Kingdom of God. Gregory of Nyssa ,Clement of Alexandria , Meister Eckhart , Jan van Ruysbroeck ,Catherine of Sienna , Jacob Boehme, John of the Cross and others.

We should indeed appreciate the good where we find it.

JMJ,

Richard

[Richard Long]

To continue our definition of prayer.....

The first word of the first prayer....

Abba...


Jesus does not teach us the words that the Hebrews used...Not the God of Abraham.. not the God of Issac nor the God of Jacob, not God Almighty...Instead He wants us to say..<<Abba>>...

Abba is an affectionate diminutive that implies warmth and close family.. its how He addresses His Father.

WE are children of a Loving, Merciful and Almighty Father who wishes our good, our joy.. and that it may be full. Christ teaches us that this is so.

JMJ,

Richard

[Father David Moser]

I would like to remind everyone participating in this discussion that the Monachos discussion groups are for the express purpose of discussion of Eastern Orthodoxy through its Patristic, Monastic and Liturgical heritage (see the first paragraph of the TOU (http://www.monachos.net/forum/faq.php?faq=mb_tos)) Given that statement, I would like to request that all participants in discussing this Roman Catholic spiritual book limit themselves to this arena by consistently referring to how it conforms to or differs from the patristic witness or monastic practice of the Orthodox Church. It is not an appropriate use of this discussion forum to discuss this book on its own merits.

Fr David Moser

[Richard Long]

Greetings Rick,

Thank you for the quotes from the <<Cloud>>

<< I do not want clever clerics (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Clergy) and self-appointed critics discussing it. I would prefer they never see it. I did not want them involved with it. >>

Its not surprising that the author dislikes << clever clerics >>. Since<<Abba>>, who resides in him, also disliked <<clever clerics>>.

Jesus preferred the company of nobodies. His words to the Pharisees are devoid of the warmth, compassion and mercy he has for everyday people. He healed the downtrodden and consoled the beat-up and rejected. His father was a carpenter who could do no better than a manger in a barn when Mary was to give birth. When the women told Him that his friend Lazarus was dead… He wept.

On the other hand….He cannot stomach the <<clever clerics>> : They use their perverted legalism to cripple and control the spirit of the trusting faithful. With systemic nit-picking they hide the face of a Compassionate God who loves us beyond reason. Jesus responded accordingly…Mathew 13.

JMJ,

Richard

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

Whilst there is some useful material in the previous posts, this thread is clearly not on focus as one in which the text is being studied in the context of comparative relation to Orthodox ascesis, theology, patrimony, etc.; and as such is not serving the purpose of the forum. Without bias, then, I think we can close it and move on to threads more relevant to our focus.

INXC, Matthew