Fortune tellers - harmless nonsense?

[John King]

Has any one, especially in the UK, noticed a huge increase in the number of ads in magazines and newspapers placed by so-called 'fortune tellers' ? Not really surprising in post-Christian Britain you might think, and most intelligent people would dismiss this sort of thing as harmeless nonsense.

But I read somewhere recently that some of them can be 'uncannily accurate', and that rings alarm bells with me.

The girl who told fortunes in Acts 16:16-19 was possessed by a demon, and when St Paul cast it out she lost her ability to see into the future. So, are these 'tarot readers', 'clairvoyants' and 'mystics' all simply quacks, or do some of them pose a serious risk to the sad, the lonely and the vulnerable that they may be putting their immortal souls in the way of danger ?

Perhaps the devil is getting a bit more subtle, now that those dreadful (and dangerous) ouija boards no longer seem to be popular ?

[John Charmley]

Dear Mr. King,

Yes, I had noticed the increase in these things - nonsense, certainly - harmless, I suspect not. We know what happened to King Saul with the witch of Endor.

My own Coptic Church takes a very firm line in advising its members to keep away from such unChristian activities, and I feel sure it is the same with the the majority tradition here.

In Christ,

John

[Michael Stickles]

From my personal experiences, I would not think of any of it as harmless nonsense, even when dealing with quacks or the self-deluded (i.e., those who think they can tell the future, but are about as accurate -- and detailed -- as the old "Magic 8-Ball").

The problem I see (and have seen) is that even if someone goes to a "quack" fortune teller, and with a mindset to be entertained (not expecting true guidance), they are still reinforcing the idea within themselves that this sort of thing is acceptable. If they then run across someone who can tell accurate fortunes, they are less likely to think skeptically about it, and may end up swallowing demonic advice hook, line, and sinker.

In Christ,
Mike

[Kusanagi]

Has any one, especially in the UK, noticed a huge increase in the number of ads in magazines and newspapers placed by so-called 'fortune tellers' ? Not really surprising in post-Christian Britain you might think, and most intelligent people would dismiss this sort of thing as harmeless nonsense.

But I read somewhere recently that some of them can be 'uncannily accurate', and that rings alarm bells with me.

The girl who told fortunes in Acts 16:16-19 was possessed by a demon, and when St Paul cast it out she lost her ability to see into the future. So, are these 'tarot readers', 'clairvoyants' and 'mystics' all simply quacks, or do some of them pose a serious risk to the sad, the lonely and the vulnerable that they may be putting their immortal souls in the way of danger ?

Perhaps the devil is getting a bit more subtle, now that those dreadful (and dangerous) ouija boards no longer seem to be popular ?

To think its harmless is already towards being deceived because of the lax attitude.

i think they do possess a risk to vulnerable people as the purpose of the devil is to lead man away from God and thats by any means possible as long as it distracts you and holds your attention away from Him then he is succeeding.

[Nina]

I agree with you. Fortune tellers, sorcery and such are tricking many people and especially when presented inside "a sweet cake".

We always ought to keep in mind the teachings of the Old Testament and New Testament about it. It is not a light matter. I love to read the life of Saint Cyprian and Justina; also the miracle of Saint Basil about the man who resorted to a sorcerer to marry the woman he wanted; and of course another frightful example (of what sorcery is capable of, although often introduced as innocent fun) is that of the apostate Julian.

The life of Schemanun Macaria from Russia, describes many things about the subject and shows how the sorceress living near by her house would interfere with her prayers because of the impurity they would create in the surroundings. There were also many visits from Heavenly Dwellers to Schemanun Macaria, especially from the Theotokos, who would even visit weekly, however because of the impurity created by fortune-tellers and sorcery sometime the Heavenly Visitors would not be able to come and that grieved the Schemanun Macaria, who received a tremendous strength from those visits (she could not walk since a toddler, and suffered a lot and was verbally abused and even beaten sometime, left in the frozen winter, left hungry so she would die by most of the people around her, even from her own biological family).

Another Saint that speaks about the subject, is Saint Kosmas Aetolos, the memory of whom we celebrate in a couple of weeks. It is a very simple (he often talked to the poor for their salvation and is called the Apostle of the poor), but wise response to our urge to know the future:

"The Devil has produced many sons and daughters. Someone comes to you and says: "Give me a dollar or two and I will give you an herb which will give you a male child, and I will give you a talisman to predict the future, to bewitch you so you can see your future, your fate, your destiny, etc." Those things which the holy Fathers commanded and those of our Church are good and sacred, spiritual, and physical. All that takes place outside of the Church belongs to the devil. And often the devil performs illusionary miracles so that you are putting fire inside of you and are being burned spiritually and bodily. And if you want to see your future or your fate, get up at dawn and go to Church and look at the graves of the dead. Think and ask yourself, weren't they men too like me, and they died? I too am were destined to die tomorrow, and I shall not dare to. do these devilish things because I'm lost, and destroy myself. The law says that whoever does these things or urges others to do them shouldn't receive holy Communion for twenty years."

[Irwin Wagner]

Has any one, especially in the UK, noticed a huge increase in the number of ads in magazines and newspapers placed by so-called 'fortune tellers' ? Not really surprising in post-Christian Britain you might think, and most intelligent people would dismiss this sort of thing as harmeless nonsense.

But I read somewhere recently that some of them can be 'uncannily accurate', and that rings alarm bells with me.

The girl who told fortunes in Acts 16:16-19 was possessed by a demon, and when St Paul cast it out she lost her ability to see into the future. So, are these 'tarot readers', 'clairvoyants' and 'mystics' all simply quacks, or do some of them pose a serious risk to the sad, the lonely and the vulnerable that they may be putting their immortal souls in the way of danger ?

Perhaps the devil is getting a bit more subtle, now that those dreadful (and dangerous) ouija boards no longer seem to be popular ?
Yes, I don't think it's all harmless nonesense, and I have a question.

The girl in Acts 16 was demon possesed, but she affirmed Paul and company as "servants of the most High God, who announce to us the way of salvation."

A couple of decades latter, John said that "every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ come in the flesh is of God."

More recently, someone I know was speaking to Mormons, and had the strange experience of having a fortune teller tell her she should listen to "those young men who came to your door yesterday."

What does 1 John 4:2 mean?

Did something change between Paul's encounter with that demon possesed girl, the time of John's writting his epistle, and the time we live in today?

Did any of the Fathers of the Church comment on 1 John 4:2, or explain what it means?

Can anyone help me understand (or explain) it?

[John Konstantin]

Elder Paisios the Athonite (+ 1994) was asked:

Geronda, why is it that people often resort to deceivers to solve their problems?

Because the devil has worthless gifts to offer and people can acquire them cheaply. What is asked of them doesn't carry a cost, and they can remain comfortable in their passions. Instead of repenting for the sins they commit as human beings, and instead of going to a Spiritual Father to confess, they find some deceived individuals - that is, the devil himself - and ask him to solve their problems. But when they suffer even more, they can't understand that the devil has control over them.

Geronda, how do people come to believe the deceived?

People are confused. So many people claim to be leading the people on the right path, while in fact they are carrying a big bag on their shoulders with the devil hidden inside! But the benevolent God does not allow him to be entirely hidden. Once in a while the devil sticks out a horn or his tail, the people see it and shout in fear, "What is this? A horn? A tail?" But the deceivers answer, "No, of course not! What are you saying? It's an aubergine!" And they say such things to fool the people and to present diabolical things as good and beneficial.

Geronda, how can a person be protected from such deceivers?

This can be done by remaining within the fold of our Church. Of course, if someone should out of ignorance follow some deceiver, God will not abandon him. God will help him recognize his mistake and return to the truth.

[Irwin Wagner]

Thank you,

But what does 1 John 42 mean?

Why does it say "every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ come in the flesh is of God"?

How do I explain that to someone who's convinced they've heard from a spirit, and what they've heard goes against everything else we believe?

It seems to me that the Church Fathers must have had something to say about that, especially when Montanus came along with his "revelations.

From what I've read, neither he or his followers denied that Jesus came in the flesh.

Does anyone have access to "The Lives of The Saints," or "The Patristic Bible Commentary"?

Do they shed any light on the proper, orthodox interpretation of this verse?

[Bryan J. Maloney]

I look at fortune tellers in light of 1 Corinthians 8:4-13.

For someone to whom fortune telling is all balderdash, there is no personal risk. However, there are many brethren who still breathe superstition, and to them fortune telling has power. Thus, even though fortune telling is nothing but a collection of wordplay and parlor tricks to me, with no prophetic power at all, my brethren might actually believe that it has power and thus be led into even worse things. Thus, I avoid fortune telling and fortune tellers.

[Paul Cowan]

I believe in all things visible and invisible

balderdash or not, there are still evil spirits at work here we should all avoid even if we think we can handle the parlor tricks

Paul

[Vasiliki D.]

Thus, I avoid fortune telling and fortune tellers.

If it were only them ... they also come disguised as cute little ethnic Orthodox ladies who want to read your coffee cup or remove the evil eye from you (but first drop the oil into the water to check if it separates) ... stay away from them too. None of this practise is Orthodox and yet the purport to use Orthodox prayers and some are so bold as to have Orthodox icons in their rooms whilest doing the work of the devil.

Vasiliki the gal who has seen this ridiculous stuff with her own eyes in Greek homes.

[Christina M.]

If it were only them ... they also come disguised as cute little ethnic Orthodox ladies who want to read your coffee cup or remove the evil eye from you (but first drop the oil into the water to check if it separates) ... stay away from them too. None of this practise is Orthodox and yet the purport to use Orthodox prayers and some are so bold as to have Orthodox icons in their rooms whilest doing the work of the devil.

Vasiliki the gal who has seen this ridiculous stuff with her own eyes in Greek homes.

I've heard that this is very common in Greece, unfortunately. Sometimes they have "secret" prayers that they pray over sick people, and if you try to ask them which prayers they're saying, they respond: "I can't tell you, because if I tell you it won't work anymore."

Equally frightening, I think, are the well-known "mystic" sorcerers. It is scary how many people (even good Orthodox people!) put their faith in such "mystics".

Has anyone ever heard of a famous Greek sorcerer called "Barba Niko"? I read about him many years ago (and I've met some people who actually knew him), but now I can't find any information on him. I remember that his story was very interesting.

[Irwin Wagner]

balderdash or not, there are still evil spirits at work here we should all avoid even if we think we can handle the parlor tricks

Paul
But if you know it's not just a parlor trick, can you tell whether the spirit is from God by whether it confesses that Jesus came in the flesh?

Is that the meaning of 1 John 4:2, or does it mean something else.

I'd still like to know what the Patristic Bible Commentary has to say on this (if anyone has access to it)?

[Herman Blaydoe]

How do you KNOW it is nothing more than a parlor trick? If you get beyond that, then the Fathers have advised to demand that the spirit acknowledge Christ as LORD. If the "spirit" does so, then perhaps it is worth mentioning to one's spiritual father (or mother) for a second opinion.

The Apostle John is speaking in generalities, not abolutes. I believe the quote in question should be understood to read "IN GENERAL, any spirit... ", not "absolutely every spirit ...". There can be specific instances where this is not exactly the case without negating the statement completely except in a very literalist and overly pedantic sense.

Herman the pedantic Pooh

[Mark Harris]

Here is a solution - take the Romanian approach (where it is taken very seriously - as an issue that is) http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/08/romanian-witches-government-clampdown

[Nina]

If it were only them ... they also come disguised as cute little ethnic Orthodox ladies who want to read your coffee cup or remove the evil eye from you (but first drop the oil into the water to check if it separates) ... stay away from them too. None of this practise is Orthodox and yet the purport to use Orthodox prayers and some are so bold as to have Orthodox icons in their rooms whilest doing the work of the devil.

Vasiliki the gal who has seen this ridiculous stuff with her own eyes in Greek homes.

I think it happens all over Balkans, Eastern Europe and Russia this is a big problem (a holy Mother from Russia got many problems from them)... Much of it came from the Ottoman occupation. Elder Cleopas of Romania I think explained how these women in Romania performed magic and kept the cross(!!!) in front of the person who went there for different reasons and these women would say a prayer of the Church and then stop and skip a verse and spit on the cross!!!!!!! It is so scary. Many people get fooled because of the icons and crosses these sorcerers keep to deceive many!

And we have the psychics here with very well advertised shops and I can not beleive my eyes when I see them.

[Andra K.]

I have always been deeply frightened of fortune tellers; I have seen houses labeled as fortune tellers and even stalls on the board walk at the beach labeled as such. No matter what the venue, they are always creepy, scary and remind me of haunted houses you see in scary movies LOL.

On a more serious note, I have seen some of our patients be horribly manipulated by these scam artists who call themselves psychics and the patients end up manipulated into sending money to undo some scary curse that is pending on them. Spiritual issues aside, many of these people are criminal grifters and are very dangerous. In one case we had to get Adult Protective Services involved as the patient in question really had capacity issues that impaired judgement and needed some outside protection via APS agency.

And yes, I am aware of the concepts of 'the evil eye' and some other kinds of folklore as my grandmother spoke of such things. She never did any of that with us, but my mom told me once that my grandmother blamed the evil eye on my mom getting sick after a party when my mom was young. My mom said it was because she ate too many sweets and cakes!

Andra

[Effie Ganatsios]

If it were only them ... they also come disguised as cute little ethnic Orthodox ladies who want to read your coffee cup or remove the evil eye from you (but first drop the oil into the water to check if it separates) ... stay away from them too. None of this practise is Orthodox and yet the purport to use Orthodox prayers and some are so bold as to have Orthodox icons in their rooms whilest doing the work of the devil.

Vasiliki the gal who has seen this ridiculous stuff with her own eyes in Greek homes.

Vasiliki I think reading coffee cups is just a bit of fun. Who in the world would believe that the coffee grounds in the bottom of your cup could predict the future. In the past when people worshipped the "mother" the intestines of a sheep or other animal that had just been killed were believed to predict the future. I believe that this was pretty common in rural England.

We can pray over another person and the prayer that is usually said is the Lord's Prayer. I don't think that there is anything wrong with this. I don't believe in the "evil eye" but if you ask your priest he will probably tell you that the Orthodox Church does believe in it. This sounded strange to me when I first heard it but it's true.

I am sure that Jesus told us to have nothing to do with fortune tellers but I can't remember exactly where in the New Testament it is written. I just searched for it but without success.

Remember Jesus told us that we were not to worry about the future but to have faith in God.

Live one day at a time.

"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

I know of people who have spent a lot of money going to fortune tellers (usually muslims in north-east Greece, amims or whatever they are called). In my opinion it's all a load of rubbish.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

And yes, I am aware of the concepts of 'the evil eye' and some other kinds of folklore as my grandmother spoke of such things. She never did any of that with us, but my mom told me once that my grandmother blamed the evil eye on my mom getting sick after a party when my mom was young.

My mom said it was because she ate too many sweets and cakes!
Andra

Now this I can believe............................

Thanks Andra.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Something else to laugh about:

When I was a couple of weeks or so pregnant with my son a couple of friends and I decided that we would brew some Greek coffee to find out if I was pregnant.......................................... ................

Believe it or not but there was definitely a clear picture of a little baby sitting down. The only thing we couldn't see was whether the baby was a little boy or a little girl. We were very young and very silly and we enjoyed ourselves immensely.
Who needs ultra-sounds when you have coffee cups!!!

Effie

[Angie]

Reading the coffee cup is not harmless fun. "Confronting the devil, magic and the occult" by Arhim. Vassilios Bakoyannis is a book I would recommend to read. Believe me when I say you would not want to put it down!

[Nina]

Reading the coffee cup is not harmless fun.

I agree. Be careful.

Also the Orthodox Church does not beleive in the evil eye. But it has prayers against the evil eye (vaskania). These are negative energies that might influence some people. However frequent participation in the Holy Mysteries of the Church is protective against any form of evil.

Elder Porphyrios said something related to the "evil eye" or as it is expressed under matters of the disposition of the heart. (http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/elderporphyrios_dispositions.aspx)

However, I agree with Andra and Effie that people often over-assign the reason of one not feeling well to the influence of the evil eye. Not always there is demonic, or negative influence when we do not feel well, and this is why the prayer against evil eye is not done too often in our Church.

[Bryan J. Maloney]

However, I agree with Andra and Effie that people often over-assign the reason of one not feeling well to the influence of the evil eye.

And being so eager to believe such influence even plays into the hands of the Enemy, since it promotes the belief that he has even more power than he actually has. In short, it's just a good idea to steer clear of all of this stuff.

[Nina]

And being so eager to believe such influence even plays into the hands of the Enemy, since it promotes the belief that he has even more power than he actually has.

Actually this is the stance of Elder Porphyrios. However he also said about the evil eye as seen in the link above. It is a fine balance between the two. But he as ALL the Fathers of Orthodoxy say stay away from all these things.

[Anton S.]

The Russian Orthodox Church considers fortune-telling and using the services of fortune-tellers as incompatible with Orthodox spiritual life. Church bookshops are full of books warning against this danger. Articles on this subject are often published by the church press and priests often remind people in sermons before confession that fortune-telling is a sin (falling under the heading of 'superstition').

I used to have a mild interest in fortune-telling before being baptised, but some time after baptism - as soon as I started taking Orthodox faith seriously - I decided to have no truck with fortune-tellers, as the position of the Church on this matter seemed very clear and uncompromising.

[Alice]

No flirting with the arts of the evil one are 'harmless'...whether it is fortune telling, cup reading, tarot cards, ouija board, witchcraft, etc...

These are totally antithetical to the Christian life and invite the evil one into our lives, which is not a good thing, to say the least! Kyrie Eleison!

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/08/on-astrology-fortune-tellers-and.html

[Michael 'Anthony' Cornett]

I heard a secondhand story of Frs Eleftherios and Stefanos in Thessaloniki who had called into one of the live TV fortune teller programs. Before the call, the soothsayer was seemingly accurate, and with much ease. When the Frs called in (not sure which was on the line), and were praying through it, the fortune teller was unable to get the slightest bit of reading. I think calling these people 'fortune tellers' is more than a lie...They are simply mediums. It's my understanding that the fathers then were able to chat w/ the person and give them a good reprimand with success.

[Xenia Moos]

Astrology falls into the same category. What to say when a self-identified Christian asks you what your astrological sign is? I usually say "Ï don't believe in astrology" and try to change the subject. I am thinking next time of saying "The only sign I believe in is the Sign of the Cross!"

[Alice]

(
Astrology falls into the same category. What to say when a self-identified Christian asks you what your astrological sign is? I usually say "Ï don't believe in astrology" and try to change the subject. I am thinking next time of saying "The only sign I believe in is the Sign of the Cross!"

If one follows horoscopes it does fall into the same category. How can the stars of the skies tell us what is going to happen or what we need to watch out about?? Lord have mery!

I am not really sure if light joking (while admitting to not believing in it) about having the personality traits of a zodiac sign is really that bad? Maybe those Christian people don't really believe in it either? I find that most people I have ever met do not.

I know I have joked about my children's signs at times because they really fell into the classic traits of them! :=) LOL (a stubborn bull and a twin/double personality) LOL...

I do not believe in horoscopes or astrology anymore than I believe in Monday's child's traits, Tuesday child's traits, etc....(does being born on a certain day really determine if you are 'full of grace' or 'fair of face'?!? LOL) sometimes it is just light conversation/humor for some people, though for other people they may really take these things seriously and that is spiritually dangerous.

[Niko Barounis]

Stupid, ignorant, usless stuff!

When you open the door to peek through...to see what is on the other side
well
whats on the other side can peep through and see you also.
and
sometimes whats on the other side...makes it past the door, to your side.
what are you going to do now?
was it worth the peek/curiosity?
absolutly not!

Stay on your side--lock, bolt, barricade the door.
dont assosiate with any of these usless things.

when someone speeks of these things go away.
when some one does these things RUN away.
even something as "fun" as reading your Fligani".
When im given a cup of coffee & i think the person will try to read it, i will happily do her dishes along with my cup.
i dont even want her to look at the rim and say to me she sees, money coming, or she sees a long trip comming.
cause for a second when she is in the procces of saying it i might pause for an instant and be tempted to listen...leaving the"door open just long enough for problembs to start.

Pray, worship, go to Church, participate in the sacraments---what else do you want?

[Bryan J. Maloney]

Pray, worship, go to Church, participate in the sacraments---what else do you want?

Control. People want to feel like they control their surroundings. Dabbling in fortune telling is no different from obsession with the eschaton. Trusting God is easier said than done, so people consult soothsayers.

[Niko Barounis]

"Control">>>wasnt that what the devil wanted also?

Was it the old or new testament that i read (in a nutshell) "be like the birds...who dont worry abt the tomorow".


Never really thought of it before but "Control" is a scary word.

You dont have it and you want it~~what u gona do to get it? r u willing to...lie,cheat,steal,make a deal with u know who???

Now you have it what you gona do with it? control people, their thoughts,mind actions,money???

Take God as an example~~even he refused to "control" us.

Must be a reason for that, no?

[Anton S.]

Control. People want to feel like they control their surroundings. Dabbling in fortune telling is no different from obsession with the eschaton. Trusting God is easier said than done, so people consult soothsayers.

It is not only control, but also curiosity. It is only natural to want some contact with something mysterious and miraculous - mystical secrets are as tempting as wine or even drugs. And as dangerous, if not worse.