Christianity and creativity

[Alexei B.]

It seems that many Orthodox Christians (at least here) believe that everything outside the Church belongs to evil, and everything within the Church belongs to God. (Please correct me if I'm wrong -- I only just joined!)

Does this apply to human creative works?

Clearly, many creative works are far from Christian in their content, and are probably as far-removed from God as the rest of our secular pleasures. What about fairly neutral disciplines, such as classical music? My music teacher (an Orthodox Christian) believes that by creating us in His image, God gave us the ability to create, and that when we are exercising our creative talents, we are giving praise to Him. Is this a controversial notion, or can it mesh with official Church doctrine?

In other words - and I admit this is a rather silly phrasing - would God "approve" of creativity that does not directly reference Him?

[Olympiada]

Well I draw rusalkas, fairies, for a living, which are a part of Russian folklore, and I work with a priest. So I would say that we must not be narrow minded nor judgmental.

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Alexei,

I would say if you had a choice, you might consider focusing on Him. See King David. He sang AND danced in the streets praising God. I don't think there is anything wrong with secular talents as all are given to us by God for His glory. Just remember when you are praised for your talent that it is not you but He that works in you.

Give credit to the One that deserves it. And an aside, dont' use your "God given talents" for evil. That goes without saying. We will all be held accountable for the "talents/ minas" we were given and will have to give an account of our actions with them.

I think God has a sence of humor. He gave us one. Why then would He not want us to use it properly? ie. not for evil, but for the benefit of others.

Paul

[Antonios]

And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Genesis 2:18-24



A few remarkable things to note in this early history of mankind.
-God saw that it was not good for man to be alone.
-Adam was given the charge of creating the name for each animal, and this is an awesome responsibility when you consider the importance a name carries in the Holy Scriptures.
-Eve is created from Adam.
-Together, they join together and become one flesh, a new creation which is one of convergence and completion.

Much to ponder about...

[Herman Blaydoe]

It seems that many Orthodox Christians (at least here) believe that everything outside the Church belongs to evil, and everything within the Church belongs to God. (Please correct me if I'm wrong -- I only just joined!)

Well, let's just say this seems a rather broad overstatement. Everything belongs to God. We are engaged in the process of bringing creation back to the Creator. This is why we bless things, or rather why we ask God's blessing upon things. As the Apostle Paul teaches, all things are lawful, but not all things edify. Most everything can be good or bad depending on how we choose to use it, to give glory to God or for selfish reasons. We know that the time-tested wisdom of the Church guides us to that which can edify, but we can twist even that to bad purpose if we wish. Our task is to take Christ out to the world, and to bring the world in to Christ.

Are you familiar with the Akathist Glory to God for all things" (http://www.saintjonah.org/services/thanksgiving.htm)"? I think it may help answer your question.

Herman

[Rick H.]

It seems that many Orthodox Christians (at least here) believe that everything outside the Church belongs to evil, and everything within the Church belongs to God. (Please correct me if I'm wrong -- I only just joined!)



Dear Alexei,

I suspect you are not alone in this observation; however, I appreciate what Herman has said above:




Most everything can be good or bad depending on how we choose to use it, to give glory to God or for selfish reasons.



and, actually the more I think about it, the more I think Herman is right on when he speaks of redemptive living and 'Christ in Culture!'

There needs to be a balance here in this way of thinking. And, as it relates to what sounds right, I have had a verse on my mind for the past few days that I would like to share now:




My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:27



So I am not sure that there is correction needed here; but, I appreciate Herman's points very much as well.

But, most of all I appreciate the words of our Lord Jesus Christ when he teaches that His sheep hear Him and they follow Him.

May we never hear those words "I never knew you."

May we know a personal relationship with Jesus Christ for ourselves.

May we hear and follow the one through whom all things were created in the Beginning.


Yes, the True Light!

In Christ,
Rick

John 1

[Michael Stickles]

It seems that many Orthodox Christians (at least here) believe that everything outside the Church belongs to evil, and everything within the Church belongs to God. (Please correct me if I'm wrong -- I only just joined!)

What I've seen, as far as attitudes towards things "outside the Church", is that it depends on context.

If dealing with specifically "religious" matters -- as in doctrine, practice, or experience -- the prevailing attitude tends to be that, whatever good may be found outside the Church, can be found in its fullness inside the Church. So when you see a dismissal of something "outside", it might only mean the person sees that thing as inferior, rather than evil. Sort of how I'd look at store-brand canned corn if I had fresh-picked corn-on-the-cob in the kitchen.

Outside of that, the opinions tend to range farther and wider depending on the specific subject. I can't speak authoritatively to an "Orthodox position" on creative arts (not being Orthodox), but your music teacher's position sounds totally non-controversial to me. Here is a perspective from Dr. Constantine Scouteris, Professor of History of Doctrine and Symbolic Theology at the University of Athens (he is speaking of medical bioethics specifically, but I think it has wider application):


The human person as a "living soul" is a creative spirit, that is to say we have something of divine creativity within our nature. This is truly a blessing, the importance of which is, of course, recognized by theology. Nevertheless, the human being, as a free person, is obliged to function with discernment. If one’s creativity remains unchecked and without being examined, then one ceases to be authentic and whole. It is necessary for "discernment of the spirits" (1 Cor 12:10) to accompany creativity. Within the Orthodox tradition creativity finds its perfect consummation in preserving its divine origin. The human person is not an automaton, an autonomous and free-moving machine, but we can create precisely because we are a living image of God. In essence the ability of the human person to enquire and to discover has a divine origin, as we have already noted. This means that our natural calling to create, to enquire, to discover, does not lose, under any circumstances whatsoever, its divine derivation and worth. The Fathers of the Church used the concept of "synergy" to demonstrate that the human person, as a creative being, can be a fellow labourer with God.

[Rick H.]

Dear Mike,

Now we are talking! From dokimaso to synergia by way of discovery!!!

As shared by Scouteris:

--discernment/examination

--enquiry/discovery

--synergia!

I am involved in a discussion on another Orthodox website where I have posed a question about what our part of living the Christian life is. Knowing some who read and contribute here on this site, also read and contribute there, you have taken the wind from my sails somewhat . . . but that's OKAY very good.

If there is a threefold path, this is IT.

Thanks again sir.

We must hear more from this Greek Good Doctor!

In Christ,
Rick

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

It seems that many Orthodox Christians (at least here) believe that everything outside the Church belongs to evil, and everything within the Church belongs to God. (Please correct me if I'm wrong -- I only just joined!)

This description of the Church vs the world is basically the heresy of Marcion from what I can see. I do not believe that anyone here holds to that. I don't believe I've heard of this elsewhere within the Church during my time at least.


Does this apply to human creative works?

Clearly, many creative works are far from Christian in their content, and are probably as far-removed from God as the rest of our secular pleasures. What about fairly neutral disciplines, such as classical music? My music teacher (an Orthodox Christian) believes that by creating us in His image, God gave us the ability to create, and that when we are exercising our creative talents, we are giving praise to Him. Is this a controversial notion, or can it mesh with official Church doctrine?

In other words - and I admit this is a rather silly phrasing - would God "approve" of creativity that does not directly reference Him?

But here's where the question is most important. We all live within this world in some way. Also we each share aspects and faculties of humanity at large. We think and we speak, we desire and we act.

I am not sure there should be a clear answer to the question of things directly 'referenced to God' or things done in themselves, like music. I would suspect there are extremes to avoid from either side. The Church is not a cult but the world left entirely to itself soon drifts off into abysmal ugliness.

How about then that rather than trying to reference creativity only to God (something which soon becomes abstract & another product of the human imagination) we speak of referencing everything in the light of the Church.

This indeed gives us a living reference point which allows those things not yet within the Church to find some positive value in comparison to it.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Herman Blaydoe]

Just to add to the comments of Fr Raphael (who posted while I was still composing my response), Mike and Rick, I find it helpful, whenever I am about to undertake a task, to cross myself and say: "In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". If saying this seems inappropriate for the task at hand, you might want to think again about doing that particular thing.

In a very limited sense, it is sort of like the example we get at work when we have to go through the required prevention of sexual harrassment training--If you are going to say something to someone, would you still say it if your mother or your spouse was in the room with you?

In like manner, would you still do this if Christ was in the room? And remember--He is!

[Rick H.]

On Creativity and Abstraction

This seems to be a reocurring theme here as we consider a point of reference, a true north, by means of what is abstract and what is a non abstraction.

And, when we speak of the light of the Church or the Church Herself, are we speaking of something here that can be pointed to, or are we speaking of something that takes shape in our understanding by means of 'extracting common features from specific examples?' If I would ask you to point to the Church, what would you do? You may think of a clever answer to point out the absurdity of the question itself, but other than that what would you do?

One definition of "abstraction" is a general concept formed by extracting common features from specific examples.

And, knowing we do not determine the light of the Church or the Church (God forbid!) but we discover the True Light, at the End of the day, what are we really saying about the value of abstractions as they relate to providing defintion and a reference point.

As we consider creativty and abstraction, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, who can point to the Church? Who can point to the True Light of the Kingdom of God? When is the metaphysical a place of joy unspeakable and full of Glory, and when is IT not? Who determines Truth?

In Christ,
Rick

[Kusanagi]

Since God created man in his image and likeness and God created everything i don't think man's creavity is evil as like God he is making use of this skill.

Don't forget St Luke using his artistic creativty to create the first icon.

[Father David Moser]

Who determines Truth?

Wrong question. Truth is not something to be determined, Truth is a person. So the question then becomes, "Is this Christ?"

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

Wrong question.

Truth is not something to be determined, Truth is a person. So the question then becomes, "Is this Christ?"

Fr David Moser


Wrong question huh? :) Okay, either way. Although it makes it easier for the "Who's on First" routine to get warmed up. We can do it this way too.


Who determines what is Christ?


Ironically, now it occurs to me, may it never be said that he loved the Church only in the abstract--not in Person.


In Christ,
Rick

[Michael Stickles]

Who determines Truth?
Wrong question. Truth is not something to be determined, Truth is a person. So the question then becomes, "Is this Christ?"

I have often heard that asking the right question is more important than finding the right answer. While the right answer to the wrong question leaves you confident in your error, the wrong answer to the right question at least leaves you in a correctable state. And having no answer to the right question at least keeps you searching in the right direction.

As a humorous aside, this reminds me of a passage from one of my favorite children's books, Norton Juster's The Phantom Tollbooth:



"I'm not very good at problems," admitted Milo.

"What a shame," sighed the Dodecahedron. "They're so very useful. Why, did you know that if a beaver two feet long with a tail a foot and a half long can build a dam twelve feet high and six feet wide in two days, all you would need to build Boulder Dam is a beaver sixty-eight feet long with a fifty-one foot tail?"

"Where would you find a beaver that big?" grumbled the Humbug as his pencil point snapped.

"I'm sure I don't know," he replied, "but if you did, you'd certainly know what to do with him."

"That's absurd," said Milo, whose head was spinning from all the numbers and questions.

"That may be true," he acknowledged, "but it's completely accurate, and as long as the answer is right, who cares if the question is wrong? If you want sense, you'll have to make it yourself."


In Christ,
Mike

[Effie Ganatsios]

Alexei wrote : "It seems that many Orthodox Christians (at least here) believe that everything outside the Church belongs to evil, and everything within the Church belongs to God. (Please correct me if I'm wrong -- I only just joined!)

Does this apply to human creative works?

Clearly, many creative works are far from Christian in their content, and are probably as far-removed from God as the rest of our secular pleasures. What about fairly neutral disciplines, such as classical music? My music teacher (an Orthodox Christian) believes that by creating us in His image, God gave us the ability to create, and that when we are exercising our creative talents, we are giving praise to Him. Is this a controversial notion, or can it mesh with official Church doctrine?

In other words - and I admit this is a rather silly phrasing - would God "approve" of creativity that does not directly reference Him?"

Alexei, would you like being part of a church that considered everything outside it evil? I know I wouldn't. That's not the church I know, that's not the Christ I know. We might as well shut ourselves in a locked building and pray together for our church, our beliefs, our everything - do you see Christ in any of this? Would He have acted like this?

Concerning creativity : look at nature, look at God's creativity, look at God's diversity. Today I was watching a documentary about coral reefs and the various fish that live in them, and the numberless ways these fish change shape and colour to hide themselves in the reef. I was in awe of the wonderful things on earth and inside myself I thought how great God was and how great his creation. I didn't see anything resembling what we think God looks like or any religious symbols. God is the greatest creator, the beauty of one sunset is priceless and unique, and any person who can create a thing of beauty is only following in God's footsteps.

Who can ever have told you, or more precisely, who can ever have given you the impression that the Orthodox Church is so narrow and that creativity needs to be controlled. As someone has already said on this thread, silently bless whatever you are doing, whether painting, composing or playing music, etc. dedicate it to God. You say many creative works, including classical music, is far from God. How can this be? Some of the world's best classical music is dedicated to God, just listening to it brings tears to our eyes and a remembrance of the glory of God.

Whatever is beautiful is from God, we are merely his instruments.

Alexei, our religion is about joy, it is about beauty, it is about creativity and it is about using the gifts God has given us.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Mike Stickles wrote : "What I've seen, as far as attitudes towards things "outside the Church", is that it depends on context.

If dealing with specifically "religious" matters -- as in doctrine, practice, or experience -- the prevailing attitude tends to be that, whatever good may be found outside the Church, can be found in its fullness inside the Church. So when you see a dismissal of something "outside", it might only mean the person sees that thing as inferior, rather than evil. Sort of how I'd look at store-brand canned corn if I had fresh-picked corn-on-the-cob in the kitchen."

Yes, exactly.

[Nina]

Why? Haven't you seen threads such as these?

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3626&highlight=literary+works

[Alexei B.]

Thank you all for your answers! Let me modify my question somewhat: are creative works at all significant outside the secular world? Will they have a place in eternity?


Well, let's just say this seems a rather broad overstatement. Everything belongs to God. We are engaged in the process of bringing creation back to the Creator.

If dealing with specifically "religious" matters -- as in doctrine, practice, or experience -- the prevailing attitude tends to be that, whatever good may be found outside the Church, can be found in its fullness inside the Church. So when you see a dismissal of something "outside", it might only mean the person sees that thing as inferior, rather than evil.

This description of the Church vs the world is basically the heresy of Marcion from what I can see. I do not believe that anyone here holds to that. I don't believe I've heard of this elsewhere within the Church during my time at least.
It seems I was incorrect in my assumption. Thank you for correcting me.


Just to add to the comments of Fr Raphael (who posted while I was still composing my response), Mike and Rick, I find it helpful, whenever I am about to undertake a task, to cross myself and say: "In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". If saying this seems inappropriate for the task at hand, you might want to think again about doing that particular thing.
This is good advice. Thank you.


God is the greatest creator, the beauty of one sunset is priceless and unique, and any person who can create a thing of beauty is only following in God's footsteps.
This is very reassuring -- thank you!


You say many creative works, including classical music, is far from God. How can this be? Some of the world's best classical music is dedicated to God, just listening to it brings tears to our eyes and a remembrance of the glory of God.You misunderstood me: I said that "many creative works are far from Christian in their content", but didn't know whether "fairly neutral disciplines, such as classical music" could be considered more than simply secular. :)

[Effie Ganatsios]

What does "far from christian" mean? Are you saying that we need to separate creative works into those that have a christian theme or symbol and those that don't? Beauty is beauty. Paintings can be about anything - do they have to have a christian theme to be timeless? Consider the great paintings that we still admire hundreds of years after they were created -

I'm afraid I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying that we, as Orthodox Christians shouldn't admire something that has no apparent christian theme? Please help me here. First you said that it seems that Orthodox christians, on this forum, consider things outside the Church as belonging to evil, and then you continued with the subject of creativity and what we are able to appreciate. Are you asking if we are unable to appreciate great painters if their work is not about religious subjects?

Alexei, you're right when you say I didn't understand you, because the truth is I don't. Is creativity only appreciated when it is confined to christian themes? Is a painting of the Theotokos better than a painting of a nature scene? We reverence our icons, not for their artistic value but for what they represent. The same is valid for our Byzantine music in the church.

Perhaps it's too early in the morning for me, but I really need help with what you want to say.

Effie

[Antonios]

This link (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/BryantArt.php) is of an article just released titled "The Christian Artist in the World" and is quite applicable to this thread.

[Kusanagi]

Each person has a gift from God given during baptism.

how else to develope the gift if just hide it underneath the ground?

[Effie Ganatsios]

Each person has a gift from God given during baptism.

how else to develope the gift if just hide it underneath the ground?

I agree completely, Sigfrid. We need to develop the gifts we have been given by God and use them to His glory.

Effie