Discerning apparitions

[Kusanagi]

In response to Paul here is why I do not think that the apparitions of the Mother of God are real until they are tested in the correct way rather than jumping in and believing you were visited by the real being.

Here are some examples I can think of from the top of my head how Catholics and Orthodox conduct things.

Joan of Arc heard voices and believed the saints were really talking to her and put her trust in them.

Francis of Assisi saw God the Father and believed it was really Him, yet it didn’t occur to him why God the Son didn’t appear to him.

The Orthodox examples are:

St Anthony the Great can feel when a demon disguised comes to him he feels at peace when it is really a visitor from Heaven.

St Nicetas of the Kiev caves wanted to become a hermit before he was ready due to youth and youth has enthusiasm. He disobeyed his elder St Nikon who warned him he would be easily deceived. So he went anyway and locked himself in a cave and a demon told him invisibly that he was the Christ and that he was not worthy to behold him so he sent a demon disguised as an angel and instructed him not to pray as he would pray for him and to just read books especially the OT. He became an expert in the OT but not the NT and with the demon’s help he was seen as a prophet. When the other Holy Fathers of the Kiev caves noticed he was OT bias they knew he was being tempted by the devil. At that time out of 150 monks 30 of them were victorious against the demons and they prayed so the demon would leave him. When it did it turned out he had no clue about the OT let alone read.

Another St Isaac the Fool for Christ from the Kiev Caves monastery locked himself up as a hermit at the beginning of his monastic life. A demon disguised as Christ appeared to him and St Isaac didn’t protect himself and was deceived so badly that the demons exhausted him with dancing left him for dead. When St Anthony visited his cave he knocked but got no answer and thought he was dead. When the cave was open they realised he was barely alive and immediately knew this was because of demonic temptation. It was so bad that St Isaac couldn’t speak for 2 years and couldn’t feed himself for one and had to be dragged to church.
When he recovered he became a fool for Christ and succeeded to defeat the devil.

St Theodore of the Kiev caves found a horde of money in his cave he was doing his ascetic practices and he asked his spiritual father St Basil what to do and he instructed him to get rid of it and to never think of it again. His elder left to do some business and doing this period a demon disguised as his elder visited him and instructed him to take the money buy some land, build a house and retire. He hesitated and the demon kept coming and told him to hurry up and do what he was told to do. So thinking he was doing an obedience he decided to leave but without him realising it his REAL elder came and thought to drop by and see him and notice he was about to leave and questioned him about where he was going and St Theodore told him HE told him to leave with the money but the Elder said he just came back from his errands and couldn’t have told him and believed it was a demonic temptation but his pupil was distressed and complained HE instructed him and now he is instructing the opposite and in the end the Elder brought with him respectable monks that could testify on his behalf that he just got back to his monastery. St Theodore was convinced and was instructed by the Elder to never let anyone come into his cave unless they say the Jesus prayer.

A desert father instructed his pupil once after he was tempted by the demon in a similar way that unless the person wanting to come in say ‘Glory to the Father and the Son and to the Holy Spirit both now and forever unto the ages of ages’, they are forbidden to come in. A disguised demon did visit him and when he was told to repeat ‘Glory to the Father and the Son and to the Holy Spirit both now and forever unto the ages of ages’ and wait for the Amen, all the demon could say was ‘both now and forever unto the ages of ages’. So he knew immediately it was a demon.
St Simeon the Stylite was tempted once by a fiery chariot to take him to Heaven he was about to get in but he crossed himself and the chariot disappeared.

Many desert fathers were tempted by demons disguised in various forms to make them leave their place of struggle, such as friends, soldiers, a person in dire need, angels, Christ etc etc.

For example ‘Christ’ visited one monk but the monk asked him what did he want and the ‘Christ’ said to say what a good job and was praising him and the monk replied I am not worthy of seeing you and the demon disappeared.

St Peter of Mt Athos was in a cave and a demon disguised as an angel told him to leave but he said unless the Mother of God herself tells me to leave I will not leave as She told me to come here and only She can tell me to leave, and the angel vanished.

In the life of St Cyprian and Justina, Cyprian used the demons in various guises to tempt St Justina but she prepared for it with fasting and prayer and they were all vanquished. The man who lusted after Justina saw a demon disguised as Justina and when he mentioned her name the demon vanished.

Now you give me examples of catholics and their method of discerning or fighting these sort of demonic temptations but from what I read they don’t.

[Paul Cowan]

Now you give me examples of catholics and their method of discerning or fighting these sort of demonic temptations but from what I read they don’t.


Dear friend,

I am sorry you read my posts as confrontational. I am at a loss for words to think you doubted my position on the EO church. I am sure you are familiar with this passage.


1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.



Do not the RC and PC churchs confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh? therefore, they also are of God. Orthodox does not mean exclucivism, but rather Right Belief.


Jesus Forbids Sectarianism

Mark 9:38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 For he who is not against us is on our[c] side. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.

Only God judges the heart of man. And only God will judge man. I don't think He holds too much for theology per say but rather what we do with the minas or talents He gives us. I, me and myself thinks there is a much bigger world out there than the EO church. Don't misunderstand! I am an Orthodox Christian and hold to Her tenants. However, I think we will all be surprised who we will see in Heaven. I am sure many will be surprised to see me IF I make it by God's grace.

I beleive in the lives of the saints. I also have trouble believing in the lives of the saints. It does not mean that I don't. I just have difficulty believing blindly as I did growing up in the PC church only to find out what I was taught was not necessarily Right Belief.

Again, I am not being confrontational. But I do have questions.

Just to point out one dichotomy to your post...

Joan of Arc heard voices and believed the saints were really talking to her and put her trust in them. AND
...but he said unless the Mother of God herself tells me to leave I will not leave as She told me to come here and only She can tell me to leave, ...

Do you not see the double standard here?

Paul

[Kusanagi]

read the life of St Peter of Mt Athos then you compare what you did between Joan of Arc and St Peter you just pointed out to me.

forget it i just correct it here.
Telling St Peter to leave doesn't have to be just hearing her voice it can be appearing to him. Anyway if just the voice said to him to leave he will question it as St Peter saw the Mother of God herself and instructed him to go to Athos to work on his salvation.

Give me examples of rc saints and how they deal with these encounters orthodox have often i havent seen any so far.

so to include rc and pc because they believe in God is extremely ecumenical way of thinking it's like well in the councils where they don't hold conferences to sort out theological issues but to say hey we are all bothers right? while St Ephraim the Syrian says not to mix with heretics.

St Mark of Ephesus says fine if the catholics want to join the orthodox church but they must profess the faith we do. Also you are from USA read the life of St Alexii Toth.

[Florianos]

God bless!!

Yes we have to be very carfull with visions.

I also read that a man from greece had visions of the Theotkos,he was brought to Elder Gerorgis and a demon came out of him.

But I think when the Mother of God appears outside the orthodox church we should not matter!!

What I know is that everytime she appears in catholic church she allways is sad about them and their living.

So I think when she appears?? her messages are for catholics and not orthodox.

It is said that Bernadette when she saw the Theotkos(if she ever?) saw her like appearing on orthodox icons and not like the statues catholics use!!

There is a charming story, which was told by Malaroux to Picasso. He said that when Bernadette of Lourdes entered the convent, many people sent her statues of the Virgin. But she never had them in her room, because she said that they did not look like the woman whom she had seen. The bishop sent her albums of famous pictures of the Virgin, by Raphael, Murillo and so on. She looked at Baroque virgins, of which she had seen so many, and Renaissance virgins. But none of them looked right. And then she saw the Virgin of Cambrai, a fourteenth century copy of a very old Byzantine icon, which was not like any picture of Mary that Bernadette would have seen. And she said, “That's her!”


In CHRIST

[Kieran P.]

Kusanagi, :)

You're simply very misinformed about Catholic levels of discernment. You mention St Francis of Assisi. Before we get too deeply into it, can you give references for what you've written?

Catholics are highly suspicious of any so-called apparitions and have many tales of great saints fighting demons both physically and through great prayer.

I've recently been reading St Athanasius book on St Antony of the Desert, and certain passages put me in mind of Padre Pio's physical struggles with demons. The devil has attacked the Church throughout the centuries and visited upon her many misfortunes, but the saints are graced with great discernment, scriptural knowledge and grace to withstand such assaults.

God bless and keep well

[Kusanagi]

Kusanagi, :)

You're simply very misinformed about Catholic levels of discernment. You mention St Francis of Assisi. Before we get too deeply into it, can you give references for what you've written?



St Ignatius Brianchaninov, The Arena and he said Francis of Assisi is perfect example of spritual prelest because he claimed to have seen God the Father.

[Kieran P.]

St Ignatius Brianchaninov, The Arena and he said Francis of Assisi is perfect example of spritual prelest because he claimed to have seen God the Father.

Hi Kusanagi,

Are you essentially saying that you've received your information on St Francis of Assisi from an Orthodox source?

And you expect this to be unbiased towards him?

Yikes, in fact!

[Herman Blaydoe]

And you expect this to be unbiased towards him?

You say it like it is a bad thing.

Actually, at least from an engineering view, bias is not a bad thing, as long as you are aware of it. There is almost nothing that is totally "unbiased". Believing the myth than an "unbiased" view is even possible is much more harmful than simply accepting that bias exists and accounting for it in your analysis. We all bring some sort of "bias" to whatever we are looking at.

[Kieran P.]

Hi Herman,

If it's prejudicial, it's a bad thing. If it's not, then it's not.

I think I've actually seen the article in question, a disreputable work which was posted here before and was discussed, and its main point seemed to be that St Francis of Assisi suffered from prelest simply because he was expressive like, say, an Italian, and not sombre and pragmatic of mood like, say, St seraphim.

I think that if we could all look at each others saints with an open eye, we'd enjoy the world of graces which God allows to flourish through the faithful.

For the record, I'll resist any more posts to this thread, since I've seen many similar threads closed down quite hastily when a Catholic dissents - even mildly - against how their Church is portrayed. But it should be noted that the impression on St Francis presented so far is prejudicial and also, without a reliable source.

God bless and keep well

[Mary]

Now you give me examples of catholics and their method of discerning or fighting these sort of demonic temptations but from what I read they don’t.


Forgive me Sigfrid,

but I do not understand why?

Isn't it wrong to compare, since that leads us to judge? And once we have judged, if we find ourselves doing better, does that not lead to pride? Only God knows what's in the heart and He is the judge! God is merciful. He judges us according to what we know, not according to what we don't know! I think, as orthodox, I've been given more, therefore, I'm more accountable. I can't even compare myself to my own previous protestant life; much less other protestants or catholics.

I am not saying we shouldn't judge what we hear and see. I recently got a newsletter forwarded to me, in which this lady had a 'prophetic' proclaimation soon after the bridge came tumbling down in Minnesota (I think that's where it was...). I had a choice, I could believe what she says or not. I chose not to. I judged her message, but I cannot judge her. I do not know her and I do not know why she does and says the things she does and says.

Do you suppose it could be possible that maybe, just maybe, God will be merciful enough to help her to find the Truth even in the midst of her delusions? He did that for me, so why not her? And I certainly want Him to continue being merciful to me whenever I get deluded again! Does He not love her as much as He loves me and you? Does He not want her to be saved as much as He want's me to be saved? So won't He do all that He could possibly do for her, just as He has done for me?

You and I, will die for sure if we do what they do. But for them to continue doing what they do, won't be as disastrous, because they do not have all that you & I have.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

IN Christ,

Mary.

[Father David Moser]

I would like to nudge the drift of this thread a bit by suggesting that it would be more in line with the purpose of the forum to bring out in the discussion how the saints themselves were able to make these kinds of discernments taken from their lives and what instructions are given in the patristic literature. Using this kind of a touchstone, that will help prevent us from drifting into the very shady area of personal opinion and experience.

Fr David Moser

[Herman Blaydoe]

Please forgive, I don't have the exact reference handy, others might, but I do distinctly remember one of the sayings of the Desert Fathers to the effect of--if you see your brother floating towards heaven as if borne aloft by angels, grab his foot and pull him down, the "angels" might be demons in disguise!

The Sayings of the Desert Fathers are replete with examples of monastics being deceived by "heavenly" visions, stressing the need for discernment and the danger of being totally uncritical. "Testing" things is certainly defensible, if we are to believe the Apostle Paul who tells us "Test all things, hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

From an Orthodox viewpoint, as I understand it, simply because an unexplained vision espoused some sort of theology, unless that theology is in agreement with what the Church teaches, it cannot be an authentic God-inspired event. This is one major Orthodox problem with Lourdes. "I am the Immaculate Conception" is problematic in Orthodox theology, which makes the apparition at Lourdes itself problematic at best, since it introduces a "new" doctrine. Therefore you simply will not find a lot of enthusiasm for it within Orthodox circles. As one of our "tests" in the spirit of St. Paul, it was found deficient for this (and other reasons as well) and therefore we do not "keep" it as "good".

And "bias" is not bad in and of itself, it is only when we try and pretend that it does not exist that "bad" results happen.

[Nina]

I would like to nudge the drift of this thread a bit by suggesting that it would be more in line with the purpose of the forum to bring out in the discussion how the saints themselves were able to make these kinds of discernments taken from their lives and what instructions are given in the patristic literature. Using this kind of a touchstone, that will help prevent us from drifting into the very shady area of personal opinion and experience.

Fr David Moser

Most of the Fathers of the Church intensely caution us about apparitions/visions. There is the example of a monk who thought that Christ was appearing to him, but really it was the devil; and everything happened because he did not consult his elder. That monk was filled with pride and thought that he was worthy to have Christ appear to him and receive him, after so many spiritual labors.

I really admire the example of Geronda/Elder Paisios. When St. Euphemia (he is an elder of our times and she lived around 300 AD) appeared to him, Elder Paisios asked the Saint to prostrate in front of the Holy Trinity's icon and make the sign of the Cross. Such a pillar and such humility! He did not delude himself by saying - "yes, I am so great that I am worthy of visions from above!" - when indeed he was. Geronda Paisios said that no evil spirit would pass that test - prostrating in front of the Holy Trinity and make the sign of the Cross - because as we know the Holy Cross burns them, and they can not repent, or prostrate in front of Holy Trinity.

There are many other examples.

[Michael Stickles]

I've noticed that some elders teach us to not pay any attention to such visions, even if they are of God. One example is Elder Cleopa of Romania:



If, however, by the command of God, one of the saints or angels wanted to appear to us in a material way, there is no transgression in this, for we didn’t desire this or seek after this. Yet, even in such cases, it is necessary for us to be very careful, humble, prudent and full of the fear of God, for knowing that Satan also assumes the guise of an angel, it may well be a fantasy of the Devil (2 Cor. 11:14-15). Of course, even when the vision is from God it is better for us not to receive it. For if we do this with humility God will not be sorrowful because He knows that we are taking heed not to accept within us the wolf instead of the shepherd. We don’t, indeed, have need of seeing the saints and angels, but only to pray with faith and internal vision. Saint Neilos the Ascetic says “Blessed is that intellect which arrives at the point of worshipping God without giving shape to His form within itself.”


This is not unique to an Orthodox viewpoint; St. John of the Cross says something similar:


It must be noted that all visions, revelations and feelings coming from Heaven, and any thoughts that may proceed from these, are of less worth than the least act of humility. And humility is one of the effects of charity, which esteems not its own things nor strives to attain them; nor thinks evil, save of itself; nor thinks any good thing of itself, but only of others. It is well, therefore, that these supernatural apprehensions should not attract men’s eyes, but that they should strive to forget them in order that they may be free.

Of course, we have examples of other saints and elders who have paid attention to dreams and visions, to their profit and that of others. The overall lesson seems to be that discernment and humility are needed, as the chief dangers mentioned (of paying attention to or receiving visions) are delusion and pride (especially pride).

In Christ,
Mike

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The book The Elder Cleopa also has a very strong section against accepting apparitions.

The section is called Superstitions, Dreams, Sorcery and Witchcraft (ps. 165- 179).

The book has on p. 174:


There are seven reasons that Christians are deceived into thinking that dreams and visions come from God. These are: pride; vainglory which is the first daughter of pride; a mind that is weak and dull in the faith; misplaced zeal of some Christians who purposely fast and pray specifically that they be granted visions...; then there is disobedience to the spiritual father and stubborness on the part of some of the faithful...; because of the reclusive hidden life that some people lead and the failure to thoroughly confess all thoughts to the spiritual father; and the final reason that some Christians are deceived into believing in false dreams and visions is that they do not 'know themselves' and they fail to read the holy Scriptures and the holy fathers.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Karena Hryniuk]

Genuine visions and apparitions are extremely private and rarely spoken of. The ones opening their mouths are not proclaiming Truth. If it were Truth, they would be rendered speechless on the matter.

In Christ
~Karena

[Nina]

I would like to nudge the drift of this thread a bit by suggesting that it would be more in line with the purpose of the forum to bring out in the discussion how the saints themselves were able to make these kinds of discernments taken from their lives and what instructions are given in the patristic literature. Using this kind of a touchstone, that will help prevent us from drifting into the very shady area of personal opinion and experience.

Fr David Moser


Paternal Councels (http://www.pigizois.net/agglika/pdf/PHILOTHEOS_ZERVAKOS_PATERNAL_COUNSELS.pdf) By Elder Philotheos Zervakos


THE JUDGEMENTS OF GOD ARE AN ABYSS

...Concerning the miracles which occur at the Virgin
Mary at Lourdes and Francis of Assisi, know that miracles follow faith.

The heretics whether Westerners, Protestants, or Ottomans, when they ask with faith for physical healings, receive indiscriminately, for He who receives their request said: "Ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find..."

The all Good God, who wants all to be saved and to come to the realization, grants their request, so that through this He might draw them to the correct and true faith.

If however they do not approach and die in heresy, in delusion, during the 2nd Coming He shall separate them from His kingdom. And then they shall tell Him: Lord did we not prophesy in your name, do powers, miracles! He shall tell them: Depart from me ye workers of iniquity.

With these things do not occupy yourself because they are mysteries and judgments of God which are
an abyss and incomprehensible. You should be occupied with learning in a practical manner humility and love, and when you obtain them, and do not have a spirit of laziness, authority loving and vain talking you will be saved, you will go to Paradise, to the kingdom of the heavens, which may we all achieve. Amen.

[Michael Stickles]

Such a pillar and such humility! He did not delude himself by saying - "yes, I am so great that I am worthy of visions from above!"

Reading back through, it struck me that "visions from below" could feed pride just as easily. It would be easy to think "I am so great that the enemy feels the need to act supernaturally against me." Where Elder Paisios' humility shows is not merely in accepting that a visitation might be from "below", but rather in not trusting fully in his own discernment.

Neither would it necessarily indicate pride if one accepted a vision or visitation as being from above. I remember long ago reading a fantasy novel where one of the main characters received visitations from divine beings. His thoughts when another character looked at him with awe were "As if being visited by avatars meant I was some kind of perfect being! If anything, it shows that I am slow and need the extra help!" It would not at all surprise me if the saints in their humility think similarly about any visions from above that they receive.

If one has never seen a vision, even that can be received with either humility - "I am not worthy of such a thing" - or with pride - "I am so great I have no need of visions or visitations to reassure or counsel me."

In Christ,
Mike

[Nina]

Reading back through, it struck me that "visions from below" could feed pride just as easily. It would be easy to think "I am so great that the enemy feels the need to act supernaturally against me."
In Christ,
Mike

Yes. There is a story. A monk went to his elder and started confessing: "Father when I start to pray to God I feel a terrible chill through my spine!" He was implying that the demons were interfering with his prayer. His elder replied: "My son, maybe you should check if you had left the door opened and there was a draft hitting you on your spine."
Actually Fathers warn in both cases, because it is obvious that it has to do with pride. Such fantasies and imagination if nurtured continually may lead to serious psychological problems.

[Antonios]

Let me give an example. How does an Orthodox Christian discern that they have been given the gift of tears, and it is in fact not something inspired by demons?

James, it is not spiritually benefitial to try to discern whether someone has been given the gift of tears. If for one instance, in your cries of repentance, such a thought comes up, be sure it is from the evil one.

[Nina]

Let me give an example. How does an Orthodox Christian discern that they have been given the gift of tears, and it is in fact not something inspired by demons?

In Christ,

Jim

By confessing and discussing it with his/her spiritual father.

[Nina]

Fathers of the Church always caution us:


Addressing some people who lived in the world, Fr. Paisios said: You don't know much about mental prayer, except for that which you have read. Women should be attentive because they have sensitivity and love, whereas men love Christ with the reason. Women love with the heart and have demonstrated it when they crucified the Lord. Men apply the reason, noting how many Jews, Scribes and Pharisees, were at the crucifixion, how many soldiers, etc. and therefore locked themselves in the house, set the bolt firmly and waited to see what would happen. The women have the sensitivity and it's easy for their tears to come in the time when they pray and to think that they have arrived at the state which the fathers describe. It requires attention and caution.

Elder Paisios

Link to sayings. (http://www.balamandmonastery.org.lb/fathers/fatherspaisios1.htm)