Dealing with disillusionment

[Andreas Moran]

Dear All,

I wonder if anyone has any suggestions about this? A friend of mine (cradle Orthodox) talked to me a few days ago about her negative feelings about the Church. From what she said, she has encountered much in the way of unkindness and just plain rudeness from people in the Church, including monastics, and has also suffered from apparently wrong advice about her life from her spiritual father. Some people she thinks are just cuckoo. She feels that the very people to whom she ought to feel able to turn for help are actually part of the problem. I'm sure we all have some idea of what she means; there's certainly a variety of folk in the OC! But my friend sees (she says) more charity in other churches and is seriously thinking of leaving the OC. I tried to say that the Church is more than the people in it, and there always have been and always will be sinners, weak people, crafty people, and the just plain loopy in the Church from top to bottom. I think I failed to help her.

[Tom Cook]

Dear Andreas,

I remember reading a quote somewhere in which a traditionalist Anglican was asked why she remained a member of her Church even though she strongly disagreed with the way it was evolving and considered it to be ultimately doomed in any case. She replied that one should remain in a Church until it becomes sinful to carry on doing so.

Sinful ...

I kind of agree with that, at least to the extent that it highlights the seriousness, almost violence, of divorcing oneself from one Christian community for another. Also, that the criteria should not be personal or even emotional.

Easily said, I know, and I have a lot of sympathy for your friend - she sounds as if she's had a rough time. I sincerely hope that she manages to work things out.

[Kusanagi]

Dear All,

I wonder if anyone has any suggestions about this? A friend of mine (cradle Orthodox) talked to me a few days ago about her negative feelings about the Church. From what she said, she has encountered much in the way of unkindness and just plain rudeness from people in the Church, including monastics, and has also suffered from apparently wrong advice about her life from her spiritual father. Some people she thinks are just cuckoo. She feels that the very people to whom she ought to feel able to turn for help are actually part of the problem. I'm sure we all have some idea of what she means; there's certainly a variety of folk in the OC! But my friend sees (she says) more charity in other churches and is seriously thinking of leaving the OC. I tried to say that the Church is more than the people in it, and there always have been and always will be sinners, weak people, crafty people, and the just plain loopy in the Church from top to bottom. I think I failed to help her.


Tell her to come to St Andrew's in Kentish Town, everyone there from what I heard are friendly. Also I find that too many churches are nationalistic.

[Nina]

Answer from Elder Epiphanios:

"Why, in the area of the Church, are improprieties and in justices committed and why can we not find perfection even ί n the people who are most dedicated to God?

So that we do not base ourselves οn persons and things which are related to the earth, and so we can turn our thought constantly to God and toward heaven which is our permanent homeland."

[Michael Stickles]

Andreas,

Perhaps you could ask her to consider where God would have her to be? I've seen personally (both for myself and for others) that this question can re-focus a person off their own experiences and back onto the will of God, restraining them from making a poor decision. Not necessarily will, I'll admit, but can. Discerning the will of God apart from sound counsel (since it sounds like she might not trust her spiritual father here) has its dangers, of course, but is probably less dangerous than the alternative if she's on the verge of leaving anyway.

The other thing that could help would be if she could find Orthodox to associate with who would provide a portrayal of the Church that would counterbalance what she's getting where she's at. I saw that same kind of thing help a Protestant friend who had been considering abandoning his faith altogether. But I don't know if that's an available option in her situation.

Finally, since it seems like you may be uniquely placed to help her stay in the Church, perhaps you should discuss the possibilities for action on your part with your spiritual father (if you haven't already).

In Christ,
Mike

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

We must humble, deeply humble ourselves to escape from the grasp of such views. This is what we must tell ourselves and then each other in order to prevent grievous falls.

And then again what answer would someone like the Elder Sophrony give to a question such as this? We must humble ourselves and never blame others. This is categorical and from all of the Elders in fact.

We though must ask ourselves why the sin of others affects us in such ways.
When we begin to humble ourselves the answer stares us in the face.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Kusanagi]

Also I think you should tell your friend the views of others is none of her concern why trouble and go through stress because of it?

As for the spiritual father change him if she feels he is not right for her.

Tell her it is also a great temptation for her to apostasise because of the congregational problems.

[Andreas Moran]

I'm very grateful for everyone's posts - they have been very helpful. I was quite floored by what my friend said. I'm not a full bottle.

[Maria Murray]

Andreas,
Oh no. I had very similar reasons for leaving the OC a few years ago. Unfortunately, at the time I wasn't a very well-practicing Orthodox so I did eventually leave because I saw so many people in other confessions exhibiting more charity and love. This way of thinking is very dangerous. I wish I was wise enough to give some advice, but the only thing I can think of is the church is a place where we all need healing and the only place where we receive the Holy Mysteries. If I start coming to grips with just how much my own soul needs cleaning, I won't have time to think about the sins of others. When I made the mistake of leaving, I wasn't being humble, I was only thinking of what "I" wanted.
Maria

[Effie Ganatsios]

Andreas, for years I had the same problem in a way. I didn't want to go to church, not because of the unkindness of other people but because of the character of some priests. All they seemed to be interested in was money.

Slowly, slowly and gently my husband kept reminding me that I didn't go to church for the priests, that I went to commune with God. Slowly as the years went by I came to understand what he meant. Today I love going to church and the only reason is the one my husband cited - communion with God.

Actually, we are all going through a period of testing here because our new Metropolitan of one year has the so-called stone disease. He wants huge amounts of money to erect various buildings - most of them for his own comfort. I should also mention I suppose that he came to us from America, although I seriously doubt that that has anything to do with his character.

Every time he opens his mouth it is to request money for one thing or another. Even the priests that have to obey him whether they like it or not are upset and embarrassed by the whole situation, but there is really nothing they can do about it. One priest told my husband that in the past people would always make anonymous donations to the church - sometimes small amounts, sometimes larger ones. Lots of people would leave all they owned to the Church in their wills. The cash donations have now stopped because people are quite fed up and they are not fools - they know where their money is going.

People like our new Metropolitan or like the people your friend encountered are not our responsibility and we are not in a position to judge them. They will have to answer for themselves when the time comes. But, leaving the Church for another one is not the answer it seems to me. People are the same everywhere. There are some that sadden you but there are others that are an inspiration to you.

Effie

[Kusanagi]

I just been told by my friend who had a temptation in leaving the church. When she had thoughts of leaving she told me she remembered Christ's words that said those who have one hand on the plough and looks back is not worthy of me, and to endure until the end.

[Herman Blaydoe]

You might gently remind her that "the grass is always greener on the other side". If she is noticing more "charitable" people in other churches, she will certainly find people just like the Orthodox ones she doesn't like there too.

Perhaps it is part of her spiritual journey to leave the fold and return again, as a "prodigal daughter". I am aquainted with several who have walked that path. Sometimes all we can do is watch and pray and be ready to welcome her home with joy and not judgement if and when she decides to do so.

If she is not ready to listen to your words, let your actions speak about love, faith, patience and understanding. Be the person she sees in other churches so that she knows that there is at least one here too. Beyond that, it is up to the Holy Spirit to touch her heart.

Please forgive if I speak out of place.

Your servant,
Herman

[Andreas Moran]

Thanks Herman. From what all have said, this problem seems not so uncommon.

[Celinda Grace]

Thanks Herman. From what all have said, this problem seems not so uncommon.

I would in fact say that the problem is universal. I see it all the time in the PC. People leave churches because their needs are not being met or they leave because some person they have been depending on falls. God allows us these temptations to get us out of ourselves and our selfish desires, out of our dependence on the things of this world and bring us deeper into Himself.



She feels that the very people to whom she ought to feel able to turn for help are actually part of the problem.

It sounds like the problem here is that she is depending on the people rather then having faith that Christ works in and through the Church. These things come to test our faith and in holding firm our faith grows. A friend of mine at my baptist church grew up Orthodox and in talking to her she said to me, "They don't teach one how to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ." I replied that in the OC you develop a relationship with Christ in and through the Church, but she had never found Christ in the Church, she had only found the trappings.

[Mary]

I would in fact say that the problem is universal. I see it all the time in the PC. People leave churches because their needs are not being met or they leave because some person they have been depending on falls. God allows us these temptations to get us out of ourselves and our selfish desires, out of our dependence on the things of this world and bring us deeper into Himself.


And in my case He used my disillusionment to help me leave the missionfield, which led me to leave the PC and find Orthodoxy. ;)



It sounds like the problem here is that she is depending on the people rather then having faith that Christ works in and through the Church. These things come to test our faith and in holding firm our faith grows. A friend of mine at my baptist church grew up Orthodox and in talking to her she said to me, "They don't teach one how to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ." I replied that in the OC you develop a relationship with Christ in and through the Church, but she had never found Christ in the Church, she had only found the trappings.

Help me understand what you're saying here - to me, the people I go to Church with, ARE a part of the Church, and God works through them, to teach me what I need to know. But you seem to be differentiating the Church and the People...

All good things come from God. When I say God teaches me Through people, it has nothing to do with the spiritual state of that person, or their dependability (not to say that that's not important, but it isn't absolutely necessary - we are All sinners) - remember, God used Balaam's donkey to get a message across too! What kind of "personal relationship with Christ' did that Donkey have? ;) Balaam could've gotten 'trapped' over the fact that his donkey spoke to him and not have heard the message, or else he could ignore the fact that his donkey spoke and pay attention to the message. To his credit, Balaam acted as if his donkey always had heart to heart conversations with him, and he heard what God wanted him to hear.

Also - how can one have a 'personal relationship with Christ', whom we haven't seen, if one can't have personal relationships with the very ones who make up His Body, whom we do see? I have been told, to my great frustration, that the degree of love that I have for the person that I dislike the most, is how much I truly love Christ!

In Christ,

Mary.

[Michael Stickles]

Mary,


It sounds like the problem here is that she is depending on the people rather then having faith that Christ works in and through the Church.


Help me understand what you're saying here - to me, the people I go to Church with, ARE a part of the Church, and God works through them, to teach me what I need to know. But you seem to be differentiating the Church and the People...

All good things come from God. When I say God teaches me Through people, it has nothing to do with the spiritual state of that person, or their dependability (not to say that that's not important, but it isn't absolutely necessary - we are All sinners) - remember, God used Balaam's donkey to get a message across too!

If one is "depending on the people" then their spiritual state and/or dependability are vital. If one has "faith that Christ works in and through the Church," then as you said, those things are important but not necessary. That's the differentiation -- not between the people and the Church, but between faith in Christ and dependence on individuals.


Also - how can one have a 'personal relationship with Christ', whom we haven't seen, if one can't have personal relationships with the very ones who make up His Body, whom we do see?

A PC-er would probably say something to the effect of, "through reading the Bible, prayer, worship, and confession/repentance of our sins;" the more mature would add something along the lines of "loving and serving others." And that's the point. Whatever one may think of the strengths or weaknesses of that approach, our friend was taught something about having a relationship with Christ in the PC. In the Orthodox parish she grew up in, she was left clueless. As Celinda related:


... she said to me, "They don't teach one how to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ." I replied that in the OC you develop a relationship with Christ in and through the Church, but she had never found Christ in the Church ...

I read something not too long ago (forget what it was) by a priest talking about the many Orthodox he had heard of who had converted to various Protestant denominations. His attitude was, "We are failing them." He felt that they had not been properly taught the riches of their Orthodox faith, and so did not truly understand what they were giving up.

In Christ,
Mike

[Mary]

I read something not too long ago (forget what it was) by a priest talking about the many Orthodox he had heard of who had converted to various Protestant denominations. His attitude was, "We are failing them." He felt that they had not been properly taught the riches of their Orthodox faith, and so did not truly understand what they were giving up.

In Christ,
Mike

Thanks Mike.

I do agree with you that the Orthodox faith isn't properly taught - not from anything I've read, but from what I've seen in Ethiopia. For them, it was a matter of language - since all the liturgies and services are still done in an ancient form of Amharic that no one speaks or understands anymore. BUT (and that's a very BIG 'but' ) - when I speak with the older Russian and Greek women in our church and they tell me how they never understood a word of what they were singing until they started doing the services in English... it makes me wonder.

I wonder because, for them, they knew orthodoxy, inspite of the fact that they could not understand the words. They were told by their mothers and grandmothers: "This is the way it's done" and they obeyed, even though they didn't understand. I think such faith is absolutely beautiful, and God loves it and protects them from looking for something more outside the Church.

I've met a few Ethiopians too, who are like that. They can't tell you squat, but you know God is in them.

That's not to make excuses for the need to understand. In 1 Cor 14:6-19, is a lovely passage on the importance of making sure that what we speak is understood, otherwise it's of no use to the one who is listening. I think that should be a great reason to make sure that the Treasures of our Church are presented to the members in an understandable way.

But, we can't fix the whole problem in one swoop. For now, my part is to teach my children and share with them the riches that I've found. When they get older, they may still be tempted by the other churches. But God is merciful. And patient. And not willing that any should be lost. Sigh. I wish I could be more like Him!

In Christ,

Mary.

[Maria Murray]

Dear Mike, you said:

"Whatever one may think of the strengths or weaknesses of that approach, our friend was taught something about having a relationship with Christ in the PC. In the Orthodox parish she grew up in, she was left clueless."

I was in a similar situation as your friend and thought just like that. Unfortunately, looking back on it, I realize that I was blaming others for something that was my own responsibility - we did have a priest, we did have services, it was my own choice not to read up on my faith, not to submit, not to go to confession and to form my private opinion about this and that. If I had been truly seeking God, I would have no doubt found Him in the OC. My pride in thinking I knew better lead me to a whole bunch of dellusions in Protestant denominations. Besides, what I used to think was 'a personal relationship with Christ' wasn't exactly what Orthodoxy teaches about it.

I don't disagree that the faith should be taught better, I know many people who left Orthodoxy for a protestant faith because they 'didn't get it'. One of the differences also, in my view, is that Orthodoxy is understood in experience, which is often hard to describe in plain words. So you don't see many Orthodox walking around and getting in people's faces trying to tell them how to 'get saved'.

Maria

[Celinda Grace]

One of the differences also, in my view, is that Orthodoxy is understood in experience, which is often hard to describe in plain words. So you don't see many Orthodox walking around and getting in people's faces trying to tell them how to 'get saved'.

My pastor and I were talking not that long ago how society is changing. When he grew up people were looking for truth and knowledge. He came to faith because he was presented historical evidence for the veracity of the Scriptures. Today however many young people are not interested in truth. They don't trust historical evidences, but they do trust their own experience. Thus what initially draws us to God differs depending on our cultural upbrining and our own individiual inclinations. Some people need the intellectual first because meaningless experience won't penetrate. Others need experience first because they either don't trust or don't care about any kind of intellectual truth. Ultimately we are all striving for a union of the two -understood experience

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Andreas and others,

It has been interesting to come back and read this thread. Personal situations are always so very hard to address over the internet, given that they are personal, and there are so few general norms.

But we have seen people run because of genuine hurt, and it is too often like running with an open wound. The breeze of the sprint makes it feel better for a moment, but when one eventually stops running, the pain has followed, has grown worse.

INXC, Matthew

[Nina]

Dear Andreas and others,

But we have seen people run because of genuine hurt, and it is too often like running with an open wound. The breeze of the sprint makes it feel better for a moment, but when one eventually stops running, the pain has followed, has grown worse.

INXC, Matthew

There is a subtle humor and so much truth in this.

[Gary DeSha]

It seems to me that there is something that she isn't telling you, or you haven't mentioned in your post. If she is having such problems in her local parish, that cannot be resolved, then my advice would be to move to another parish and start fresh.

When people get their feelings hurt in a parish, the hurt runs deep unfortunately. Because there is such closeness in a parish, it is like a family. Families do reconcile, and as Holy Scripture tells us, if we have sinned, we should go to the one to whom we have sinned against and ask for forgiveness. If she is on the receiving end of being sinned against, and that one who hurt her won't ask for forgiveness, she should forgive that person and move on.

This is a lot of speculation, but to really render advice, I would need more information.

Blessings to you and yours!

Fr. Gregory +

[Lia Lewis]

I'm not from England but my most memorable experience in England was the time I met with Bishop Kallistos Ware. And there are others like him all over the world. What jurisdiction is your friend in? Being a Greek Orthodox sometimes is very hard. I'm a cradle GO and it's very hard. I joined a parish in 2003 and am now starting to feel a part of the parish.

Churches are a dime a dozen but God is all. He is the be all and end all. If He's in your friend's heart, then idiot people shouldn't matter. Rude people are of the world. God is not of this world and He is always with you. Knowing that, will make going to an OC easy. I don't go to church for the social life (not saying your friend does either) but I get more joy out of sitting by myself in a pew with no one around and just being with Christ than I do when I'm with family or friends.

[Andreas Moran]

Again, I am grateful for the very wise and helpful responses. The situation is not so urgent - no precipitate action is going to be taken by my friend. I appreciate Fr Gregory's kindness but to say more would be indiscreet. I shall try to distil the advice given and make use of it at the right time.

[Owen Jones]

Not too long ago I read a very moving statement about a prominent Roman Catholic who became Orthodox -- through an OCA parish in Texas. He was completely disillusioned by the sexual scandals in the Church, but even more by the deliberate cover ups, the attitude amongst the hierarchy that a lowly layman should ever question the Church. His statement of conversion however left me a bit cold, because it was all about personal attachments. IT was about how open and warm the people were in the OCA parish he had entered. Which strikes me as more of the same kind of personalism and self-centered gratification which plagues Christianity today, turning us into consumers of religion. One of the strongest messages we can glean from the writings of the Fathers is the importance of the virtue of detachment from this world. This in no way implies a coldness of heart. What it means is that the insults of this world should have little or no effect on us, as we grow in this virtue. And by encountering these insults, we are in fact blessed, by being forced to apply this virtue. Otherwise, if everything is just hunky dory all the time, and we enjoy tons of sympathy and good feeling from others all the time, our spirit becomes complacent, and we are tempted into a state of narcissistic self-fulfilment.

With that said, I do have a long list of resentments against stupid idiots I have encountered in the Church, and I assume the feeling is mutual!

[Celinda Grace]

It is no mistake that the saints are those both with the most devastating sense of their own sin and the most compassion on others sins. This is what I was reading this morning from Oswald Chambers


"To become one with Jesus Christ, a person must be willing not only to give up sin, but also to surrender his whole way of looking at things. Being born again by the Spirit of God means that we must first be willing to let go before we can grasp something else. The first thing we must surrender is all of our pretense or deceit. What our Lord wants us to present to Him is not our goodness, honesty, or our efforts to do better, but real solid sin. Actually, that is all He can take from us. And what He gives us in exchange for our sin is real solid righteousness. But we must surrender all pretense that we are anything, and give up all our claims of even being worthy of God’s consideration.

Once we have done that, the Spirit of God will show us what we need to surrender next. Along each step of this process, we will have to give up our claims to our rights to ourselves. Are we willing to surrender our grasp on all that we possess, our desires, and everything else in our lives? Are we ready to be identified with the death of Jesus Christ?

We will suffer a sharp painful disillusionment before we fully surrender. When people really see themselves as the Lord sees them, it is not the terribly offensive sins of the flesh that shock them, but the awful nature of the pride of their own hearts opposing Jesus Christ. When they see themselves in the light of the Lord, the shame, horror, and desperate conviction hit home for them.

If you are faced with the question of whether or not to surrender, make a determination to go on through the crisis, surrendering all that you have and all that you are to Him. And God will then equip you to do all that He requires of you.

[John Charmley]

if everything is just hunky dory all the time, and we enjoy tons of sympathy and good feeling from others all the time, our spirit becomes complacent, and we are tempted into a state of narcissistic self-fulfilment.


Ah well, at least that's one temptation few of us are likely to suffer!

In Christ,

John