The need of military?

[Paul]

Not sure if this is the right section.

I'm interested on the Orthodox teachings on being in the military. Not that I'm interested in joining, just in the Orthodox teaching.

I don't think it something I could do, I think I would very much have to be a stronger person in many ways.

To beable to kill and remain pure in love.

Maybe it's that you would kill out of love, in protecting people and standing up for love, it's still something I would find difficult though.

Maybe it's in my lack of courage, for I'm not a very couirageous person. Maybe if I was and fuller in love, I could even kill for it.

In my own seeking, I was once completely anti military. I thought how could someone possibly be a man of God and partake in war and kill people. I thought how can a religion that condones this be of God.

I know because of the killing many people may say put down your arms in the name of peace. And that would be great if no one would actually take up arms and massacre people. But I see it where people do, and can't be persuaded out of love to stop, that it is then out of love for the people they hurt, that an army would go and free the opressed from other peoples wicked actions. And defeat the wicked if needs be, even if the battle has to be that of slaying the wicked and risking ones own life. I think it's about the reason, courage and love that drives that heart.

Has there ever been Military Saints, I know there was in the Old Testament, but what of after Christ?

Can anyone provide me with any writings of Saints on this topic?

Thanks.
Paul.

[Herman Blaydoe]

St. Alexander Nevsky (http://members.tripod.com/~shtyetz_john/life-of-st-alexander.html)

St. Constantine (http://www.in2greece.com/english/saints/constantine.htm)

The Orthodox practice, as I understand it, is that a soldier must go to confession for killing, and would not be able to go to communion for a time. Some things are not necessarily "good", but in a fallen world they are still necessary.

[Kusanagi]

The saints that did kill, for example of St Alexsander Nevsky, St Stephen the Great of Romania and St Tsar Lazarus was because they were defending their Orthodox believes and their Orthodox country and their Orthodox people if it is defending for a relgious matter I am given the impression it is ok. As more support of this is the 2 monks St Sergius of Radonezh sent to help the prince fight in his army as St Sergius knew his 2 disciples were ex-soldiers and would benefit the prince a lot and also the he blessed the prince for it.
Also St Stephen the Great of Romania would also go and confess to St Daniel the Hysechast before going off to fight and I presume he does confess and he also receives a blessing before going off to war.
I haven't really notice some information concerning this matter actually. But from what I understand those saints fought and defended their Orthodox countries.

I also read in the Orthodox word young boy soldiers from Serbia, one boy kept running in and out of church to pray before the icons and when it was found out he was killed he was considered a martyr.

Military saints:

St Phanourios
St Alban
St George
St Demetrios
St Theodore of Ushakov
St Peter Prince and Patriarch of Serbia
(the last 2 defeated Napolean in battle)
St Stephen the Great of Romania
St Alexander Nevsky
St Mina
St Mecury

[John Charmley]

The following from the Coptic Synaxarium suggest themselves

St. George, the Prince of Martyrs
St. Basilides (who stood up to Diocletian's persecution and was martyred)
St. James (the Mangled) who was one of the soldiers of Sakrod, the son of Shapur, King of Persia,
Sts. Sergius and Bacchus, who were martyred in the reign of the emperor Maximianus,
Most of the Forty Martyrs of Sebastia were soldiers, and were executed on the orders of Lecius, a friend of the emperor Constantine.

I don't know how many of these are in Eastern Orthodox lists of saints, but they are all remembered in the Coptic Church.

In Christ,

John

[Father David Moser]

Not sure if this is the right section.

I'm interested on the Orthodox teachings on being in the military.
...
Can anyone provide me with any writings of Saints on this topic?
Thanks.


There is a booklet in print (I have to look for it so I can't give the reference right at this moment) that states that while war/military conflict is undesirable, it is sometimes necessary to protect the Orthodox society from those who would try to disrupt or destroy it. I think the life of St Alexander Nevsky demonstrates this point. As the inspirational leader of the Russian people, he was faced with a choice of two enemies. From the east, he faced the invading Tartars and from the west the Teutonic knights. He could not repel both enemies and so had to choose which to fight. He chose to submit to the Tartars for while they were a fierce enemy, they were interested only in profit. They demanded only a yearly ransom and a loose civil authority but did not intrude into the religious/spiritual life. The Teutonic knights otoh were Roman Catholic crusaders who were demanding not only secular dominance but the forced conversion to the Roman Catholic Church. St Andrew chose to fight them for their invasion threatened not only the physical well being, but the spiritual well being of his people. He did, of course, with God's help, defeat the westerners.

Fr David Moser

[Kusanagi]

I just remember
St Longinus and 2 others with him.
St Theodore Stratelates
St Andrew Stratelates and i think 1300 soldiers with him
St Theodore of Tyro

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

There is recently in Russia a new appreciation of what the Church did in support of what is referred to as The Great Patriotic War (WWII). Basically this comes down to the fact that this was a defensive rather than an offensive war. Anyone remotely familiar with the intentions of the enemy understood that it was completely genocidal in intent. Russian people constantly saw the effects of this on the ground as their families and fellows were sadistically slaughtered. Due to this the Russian people themselves took up the cause of defense of the Motherland with a depth of self sacrifice that struck both enemy and ally alike. This element of self sacrifice and suffering can never be overlooked when trying to understand how the Church could support such an endeavour.

Lastly the attitude of those involved comes into play here. Many Russian soldiers upon arriving in Germany and Berlin were amazed at its order and prosperity. Why, they kept asking, would anyone leave such a place to try to seize the life of another people? From where they stood there was an irrational self-destructive element to the aggression they witnessed.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Michael Stickles]

Add in St. Constantine-Cyril. I saw an interesting article (http://www.theandros.com/justwar.html) in the online Orthodox journal Theandros which had this in it:



A particularly noteworthy aspect of the ensuing debate was that both sides used the other's scriptures in their polemics. For example, on the key issue of just war, the Islamic scholars cleverly manipulated the verses from Matthew 5:38-44 to charge:


"Your God is Christ. He commanded you to pray for your enemies, to do good to those who hate and persecute you, and to offer the other cheek to those who hit you. But what do you actually do? If anyone offends you, you sharpen your sword and go into battle and kill. Why do you not obey your Christ?" The Slavonic Life of St. Constantine-Cyril (The Orthodox Church and Society VIII.2) Constantine-Cyril is said to have responded: "If there are two commandments written in one law, who will be its best respecter - the one who obeys only one commandment or the one who obeys both?" The Islamic scholars answered that the one who obeyed both is the better observer of the law, whereupon Constantine-Cyril pronounced:
"Christ is our God Who ordered us to pray for our offenders and to do good to them. He also said that no one of us can show greater love in life than he who gives his life for his friends [cf. John 15:13]. That is why we generously endure offences caused us as private people. But in company we defend one another and give our lives in battle for our neighbors, so that you, having taken our companions as prisoners, could not imprison their souls together with their bodies by forcing them into renouncing their faith and into godless deeds. Our Christ-loving soldiers protect our Holy Church with arms in their hands. They safeguard the sovereign in whose sacred person they respect the image of the rule of the Heavenly King. They safeguard their land because with its fall their homeland's authority will inevitably fall too, and the Gospel Faith will be shaken. These are precious pledges for which soldiers should fight to the last. And if they give their lives in battlefield, the Church will include them in the community of the holy martyrs and call them intercessors before God." The Slavonic Life of St. Constantine-Cyril (The Orthodox Church and Society VIII.2)

This does not sum up the teaching in the article; it starts with statements by Bartholomew I:


The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople Bartholomew I (2003) proclaimed that only "in a few specific cases the Orthodox Church forgives an armed defense against oppression and violence" (emphasis added; 262). Bartholomew I instead set forth the axioms that it is better "to be treated with injustice ourselves than to do injustice to others" (263), for "war and violence are never means used by God in order to achieve a [just] result" (emphasis added; 262).

The author then brings in St. John Chrysostom to try to come to a synthesis of these two apparently opposed perspectives.

In Christ,
Mike

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The author then brings in St. John Chrysostom to try to come to a synthesis of these two apparently opposed perspectives.


This I think is where things get more dicey. As far as I know the Church does not know of theoretical justifications for war.

Rather it goes on a situation by situation, moment by moment basis being deeply aware that no matter how necessary, war is always something which causes deep brokenness to all in its effects.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

As I was reading the Prologue entry for today, this homily by ST Nickolai (Velimirovic) was presented. I think it applies to our discussion.


HOMILY

About the peace-making of Christ

"And they [the people] shall beat their swords into plowshares and
their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword
against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore" (Isaiah 2:4).

How clearly the prophet sees Christ the Peacemaker! One by one, the
prophet points out the dignity of the Savior. First of all, the
prophet pointed Him out as the Lawgiver of the new law, a law for all
the peoples on earth. After that the prophet pointed out His
exaultedness above all heights, earthly and historical. And now, the
prophet points Him out as the Peacemaker whose power and love will
forge [beat] swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks.
Has this great prophecy about peace been fulfilled? Yes it has, in
spite of the fact that wars still exist. Behold, wars among Christian
peoples are not the same as wars among pagans. Pagans fought with
pride while Christians fight with shame. Pagan faiths inhabited their
heaven only with warriors and the Christian Faith promises heaven to
the saints. As Christians, by their weakness, repeat certain other
pagan sins, so they repeat the sin of waging war. However, God
examines the heart and knows with what disposition the pagans sin and
with what disposition the Christians sin. The Pharisees denied
Christ, Peter also denied Him. But the Pharisees denied Him with
unrepentant malice and Peter denied Him in shame and again, confessed
Him with repentance.

However brethren, what can we say concerning the swords and spears of
passions by which we kill our souls and the souls of our fellow men?
O, when we would beat those swords into plowshares that deeply plow
the souls and sow the noble seed of Christ in ourselves! And when we
would beat the spears into pruning hooks to harvest the tares in our
souls and to burn them! Then the peace of Christ would take up abode
in the souls of all of us, just as it abided in the souls of the
saints. Who then would even think about war against his neighbors and
against neighboring peoples?

O how wondrous is the vision of Isaiah, the son of Amos, the prophet
of God!

O Lord, beat the weapons of war in us into instruments of peace by
the fire of Your word.

To Thee be glory and thanks always. Amen.

[Michael Stickles]

This I think is where things get more dicey. As far as I know the Church does not know of theoretical justifications for war.

The author actually doesn't give any. His "synthesis" primarily consists of resolving any thoughts of contradiction between the positions of Bartholomew I and St. Constantine-Cyril. The concluding line of his "Analysis and Synthesis" section reads:


Taken in this light, there is no conflict between the proclamation of Constantine-Cyril and that of Bartholomew I who spoke on warfare in a post-Christendom world.

As for conclusions, well, he doesn't have any grand thesis to unite the various conceptions of war and a proper Christian response. He ends by saying that our "only guidance would seem to be the curious caveat mentioned by Chrysostom: 'if thy conscience does not accuse thee.' ", which he quoted more fully earlier:


"never be afraid of the sword if thy conscience does not accuse thee: never be afraid in war if thy conscience is clear" (Second Homily on Eutropius 4).

The author calls this a "caveat" because he did show the other side of Chrysostom's teachings, such as:


For I copy the example of my Master, who said on the cross, 'Forgive them, for they know not what they do'" (Second Homily on Eutropius 5).

Finally, he interprets the "conscience caveat" in light of the Church:


Moreover, any claimed justification for choices of conscience exercised against the rightful decrees of the Patriarch become increasingly questionable as those decisions move the person away from the soteriological protection afforded by the Church. Expressed in theological language, only the Church can serve as their advocate before God, and only the Church can reconcile a person's conscience with God.

Sorry I didn't mention all that before; it might have made things clearer.

In Christ,
Mike

[Owen Jones]

Every nation, Orthodox or not, has a right and a responsibility to defend itself from attack or invasion. Just as every father has a right to defend his family in his home when invaded. So I find the Patriarch's comments a bit tendentious. What would he say if Greece were attacked by Turkey? That no Orthodox person should take up arms? This is not the same as saying that war itself is evil, sinful and inherently unjust. One might just as well argue that no Orthodox Christian should be engaged in business, since business affairs inevitably involve taking some advantage of others. It involves a kind of cold calculation that inhibits our spiritual nature. So is the Patriarch going to say that no Christian should engage in business affairs, because he would inevitably be participating in some evil?

[Nina]

When I was in Costa Rica, I learned, that it is the first country in the world that has abolished the army constitutionally.