God's will vs. fatalism

[Elzabet]

This is a kind of random spin-off from my rather icky current life and a few threads I have been reading, so please bear with me. I had a thought while praying but I don't know if it is a true thought. Help me please? Here it is:

"If it's happening then it's God's will because He is allowing it for some reason--as a consequence of some sin or because He is doing something that will lead to His glorification that I don't understand."

Is that a true statement or fatalism?

Sometimes I think I think too much. Thank you

In Him
Beth

[Mina Soliman]

I've personally had trouble with this. I think all things that happen happen at random, with perhaps the exception of a few miraculous things. But when I think of "God's will," I think of doing anything that I choose or anything that comes upon me to be done in His glorification. I understand His will that we must suffer, we must do good, we must pray, we must seek guidance from our holy fathers, we must partake of the Eucharist. But I don't see God's will as actually "allowing" what happened that it may teach you. That's almost as saying God wanted that event to happen. God allows all things, even things that displease Him. So, I would say that certainly borders on fatalism to me and can perhaps lead to Calvinistic predestinationism.

I'm sure some of the priests here can have better answers than I do, however, since they deal with people's problems everyday in their spiritual lives, especially in concern of "God's will."

God bless.

[Owen Jones]

This is my own opinion, with no Patristic source or Biblical source to back it up, but I have always been enraged by statements to the effect that whatever is is God's will, no matter how disastrous or catastrophic. There is a difference, perhaps too nuanced for most of us to get, between Divine foreknowledge, and His Will for us. I think the issue should be more the implications for our belief and understanding of God's foreknowledge, i.e., if He has foreknowledge of some evil that is going to take place, why does He not intervene to head it off? And, yes, I know the argument regarding the preservation of our free will, but important as that is, I think there is a deeper mystery there. But...When one is suffering, especially when one is suffering some extreme injustice, no one wants to get a lecture on mystery!

Bottom line, I don't think we should equate human failings with God's will. When bad things happen, it is always the case that some human mendacity is involved, and God's foreknowledge of it should not get us off the hook. Blaming God is not answer. Neither is the alternative of turning God into some kind of bush league pinch hitter.

[Elzabet]

...But I don't see God's will as actually "allowing" what happened that it may teach you. That's almost as saying God wanted that event to happen. God allows all things, even things that displease Him. So, I would say that certainly borders on fatalism to me and can perhaps lead to Calvinistic predestinationism.


...There is a difference, perhaps too nuanced for most of us to get, between Divine foreknowledge, and His Will for us. I think the issue should be more the implications for our belief and understanding of God's foreknowledge, i.e., if He has foreknowledge of some evil that is going to take place, why does He not intervene to head it off? And, yes, I know the argument regarding the preservation of our free will, but important as that is, I think there is a deeper mystery there. But...When one is suffering, especially when one is suffering some extreme injustice, no one wants to get a lecture on mystery!

Bottom line, I don't think we should equate human failings with God's will. When bad things happen, it is always the case that some human mendacity is involved, and God's foreknowledge of it should not get us off the hook. Blaming God is not answer. Neither is the alternative of turning God into some kind of bush league pinch hitter.

Thank you, both. I wasn't sure if it was a true thought or just something random. It was one of those "aha" moments that folks look for in the middle of the un-fun things of life. I'm glad I questioned it because I could have really "gone there" with that one.

[Mary]

"If it's happening then it's God's will because He is allowing it for some reason--as a consequence of some sin or because He is doing something that will lead to His glorification that I don't understand."

Is that a true statement or fatalism?

Sometimes I think I think too much. Thank you

In Him
Beth

It's God's will that we have Free will. Sometimes we use that free will to hurt each other. But He can save us from each other's and our own free will! =) Maybe not always in the way that we imagine. But always in a way that's best for ALL involved. He doesn't play favorites.

I dont' know about 'allowing' - I think He used every little thing that happened in my life, whether my own foolish choices, or someone else's, to constantly get me to the place where I'd want to seek Him more and more.

I look at the story of how He pleaded with Cain, warning him and speaking to him directly... but Cain walked away from Him. God knew he would walk away, but that didn't keep Him from giving Cain so many chances to see sense. That's how I see my life... every situation a chance to choose Him. He'll never force me to choose Him, but if I go my own way, He'll still come after me, and He'll keep seeking me, unless, like Cain, I choose to leave His presence forever.

I do not know how to explain all the evil in the world. I believe the best people to understand & explain that, are those who themselves have faced such torments and sufferings, either in the hands of other people, or against illnesses. It doesn't make sense to me when I see people with disabilities smiling. Their inner peace and joy, doesnt' fit the outside, which is very bleak. Time and time again, I've heard of those dying from cancer, even little children... who are actually able to offer comfort to their friends and family who grieve for them! This is not logical. The worse the situations seem to be, the more of God they seem to have!

How may of our saints denouced Christ under severe torture? Torture that we can't even imagine? NONE! Where did they get that strength? How would they explain the Evil done to them? I can't. But they can. And sometimes, even if they can explain how they went through it, I don't think it would make any sense to me unless I go through a similar thing myself. But I have't suffered enough, so I don't know anything.

Please forgive me, I don't even know if I'm making any sense.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Anna K.]

Dear Elzbeth and all,

I would like to share with you a prayer that I'm sure many of you already know and have a better translation of, this is my translation from Finnish, I apologise for the clumsiness:

"A Prayer of the Fathers of Optina

Lord, let me meet everything that the day brings, with a peace of mind. Let me surrender to your will unconditionally. Guide and support me in everything, every moment of the day.

Whatever news I will receive during the day, teach me to receive them calm at heart and unfalteringly certain that Your holy will happens in everything.

In everything that I say and do, guide my thoughts and feelings. At unpredictable situations help me to remember that everything is sent by you.

Teach me to be straightforward and honest towards my family members, so that I wouldn't make anyone restless or cause sorrow to anyone.

Lord, give me strength today to carry my exhaustion, give me strength to meet every event of the day.

Guide my will and teach me to pray, to have faith, to hope, to forgive and to love.
Amen"

This prayer has helped me to understand many things in my life and given me strength, I would like to hear from you all and especially our priests at Monachos, how you see this prayer answers Elzbeth's (and all of ours) question.

I tried to find as accurate words as possible, but if anyone has a proper translation of this, I would be thankful.

In Christ,
Anna

[Katerina]

Anna, thank you for the reminer of this most WONDERFUL prayer! I personally do think that this answers the question. I have this prayer in several prominent places throughout my house to remind of how to go about my day, and to remember to bear all patiently and with love and to give Glory to God in all things.

Here is the translation I have from a printout of the now defunct Orthodox America:

"Grant unto me, my Lord, that with peace of mind I may face all that this new day is to bring. Grant unto me grace to surrender myself completely to Thy Holy will. For every hour of this day instruct and prepare me in all things. Whatsoever tidings I may recieve during the day, do Thou teach me to accept tranquilly, in the firm conviction that all eventualities fulfill Thy Holy will. Govern Thou my thoughts and feelings in all I do and say. When things unforseen occur, let me not forget that all cometh down from Thee. Teach me to behave sincerely and reasonably toward everyone, that I may bring confusion and sorrow to none. Bestow upon me, my Lord, strength to endure the fatigue of the day and to bear my part in all its passing events. Guide Thou my will and teach me to pray, to believe, to hope, suffer, to forgive and to love.
Amen."


I think you did an admirable job translating!


In IC XC,
Katerina

[Elzabet]

Thank you! I had forgotten about that prayer. I used to pray it daily but have gotten out of the habit.

[Anna K.]

Thank you, Katerina for the translation, it is much more respectful... but I'm glad you could recognise the prayer from my post.

Elzabet I see I misspelled your name, I'm sorry. I would never say your thought in your original post was fatalism. In fact that is how I have thought the prayer above could be interpreted.

I hope I haven't been very astray, because to me it feels very right to believe EVERYTHING comes to us in some respect and in the end from Him. How and why, I don't know.
But in some sense the immensity and exhaustiveness of some things that happen to us reflects the seriousness of this life and at the same time the tiny proportions of our time here on earth compared to what we are created for. I don't know if this makes any sense.
But this time must be very short no matter what we experience and no matter how it seems in our little eyes and hearts, otherwise He would guide things differently.

Here is another prayer by a Valaam Schemamonk Father John (reposed in 1957):

"You, Lord, Knower of hearts, know our human weakness, sorrows and needs already before we ask.
We believe that not even a hair from our head will go lost without Your willing.
Please grant us to live according to Your will, for we sinners do not know what is beneficial for us."

Forgive me if I have spoken carelessly and too lightly of things I don't know about, and if I've hurt your feelings.

In Christ
Anna

[Andreas Moran]

I also like a companion prayer of St Philaret, Metropolitan of Moscow:

'O Lord, I know not what to ask of Thee; for Thou alone knowest my true needs. Thou lovest me more than I myself know how to love. Help me to see my real needs which are concealed from me. I dare not ask of Thee either a cross or consolation; I can only wait on Thee. My heart is open unto Thee; visit and help me, for Thy great mercy's sake. Strike me down and heal me; cast me down and raise me up. I worship in silence Thy holy will and Thine inscrutable ways. I have no desire than to fulfil Thy holy will. Teach me to pray; pray Thou Thyself in me. Amen.'