Aliens and beings from other planets [Archive] - Monachos.net Discussion Community

Karen Hammer

29-08-2007, 02:00 AM

I noticed the History Channel has given UFOs a lot of coverage, in addition to giving too much coverage to the da Vinci code stuff and other pop culture phenomenon of little worth. Did they run out of bona fide historical subjects to feature that they have to run this stuff? But they're only pandering to an audience that genuinely craves the pseudo-scientific.

It's like some people want to meet alien creatures. Maybe it's the only out-of-this-world experience they can imagine and they're hoping it'll be benevolent, not the War of the Worlds. Did sci-fi movies/TV shows set people up to expect a relationship with aliens? I think so, because now it's not a fantastic idea but a rather common one, an expectation of sorts that almost parallels our belief in the 2nd Coming. I think Star Trek, "2001, a Space Odessey" and "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" set the stage for the New Age hopes for friendly and/or metaphysical meetings with out-of-this-world beings, currently called "alien".

As for as these sightings occuring around secret military sites, it's more likely that the UFO sightings are a cover for experimental aircraft and the like. Better to look at what trends the TV and the cinema are trying to peddle to know what coming down the pike. Some manipulation going on by someone, I think.

Stay tuned.

Herman Blaydoe

29-08-2007, 02:25 AM

I'll withhold judgement on aliens until I meet one. Ask me then.

Herman

Andrew

29-08-2007, 03:11 AM

As for as these sightings occuring around secret military sites, it's more likely that the UFO sightings are a cover for experimental aircraft and the like. Better to look at what trends the TV and the cinema are trying to peddle to know what coming down the pike. Some manipulation going on by someone, I think.

Stay tuned.

The sightings aren't just at secret military sites... I was trying to point out that these nuclear weapons are demonic, and I find it interesting that in several reported sightings of UFO's they "watched" what was going on with the day to day affairs of the nuclear sites. I think they exerted a negative influence on the whole thing... the same can be said for images of Hiroshima. You look at what the US Government enacted, and you see anti-Christ.

Karen Hammer

29-08-2007, 05:30 AM

Please, let's not go down the "Amerika, the Great Satan" road. Who else has the Bomb in this world? Plenty of countries shamelessly raced to get it and stockpiled them. Who really started the work towards inventing it?? Wasn't the US.

But now that Pandora's box was opened, there's no way that it'll ever be closed again.

For that matter, one can wonder if there were "alien" (a.k.a demons) seen above concentration camps during WWII. Never heard of any sightings there.

But back to naming the "alien" issue, maybe they're demons, maybe they're delusions or illusions. Whatever the case, the important thing is not to get abducted by one or possessed as the case may be.

If that happens, there's help. Alien abduction support groups are available (they started up about 10 years ago, as I recall). Now there's a sign of the times. Wonder what folks a hundred years from now will think of us.

Paul Cowan

29-08-2007, 05:44 AM

I've been to Roswell, New Mexico. Except for alot of sheep, and tourist traps, there ain't much there. You blink, you miss it. Two stop lights, a big flag pole, and a run down gas station.

PC

I suppose the flag pole could be an underground satellite station antenna. And all the sheep were mooo'ing. So maybe there is something going on there after all.

Anthony

29-08-2007, 01:22 PM

When I went to Greece I got a document entitling "the alien, Anthony *****" to residence for a year.

Does that count?

Michael Stickles

29-08-2007, 02:51 PM

I haven't time to check out the links which Mike provides above. But in its day Fr Seraphim Rose's Orthodoxy & the Religion of the Future was the book that dealt with this.

Basically Fr Seraphim felt that beside some of the hoaxes were real experiences but which came not from alien but from demonic encounters.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

All three articles I linked had that same viewpoint. One of them (I think the third) included a lengthy excerpt from Fr. Seraphim's book.

In Christ,
Mike

Andreas Moran

29-08-2007, 03:02 PM

I don't see how there can be aliens at all. If there were, they'd be in a fallen state and need redemption but Christ was crucified and arose from the dead once only, on earth.

Fr Raphael Vereshack

29-08-2007, 04:16 PM

I don't see how there can be aliens at all. If there were, they'd be in a fallen state and need redemption but Christ was crucified and arose from the dead once only, on earth.

Yes, I agree that credibility ( or rather incredibility) is more the issue here. ie how can anyone speak as if such things were reality even on a scientific or secular basis?

Such incredibility though is one of the issues Fr Seraphim most based his ideas about these 'beings' on. He felt that the peculiar gullibility of our age was due to an undiscerning openness and craving for spiritual 'experiences' etc. This combined with the 'rational' spirit of the age ( the 'beings' all come as representatives of a highly advanced technological and hyper-gnostic culture) make us particularly vulnerable to such 'extraordinary' experiences.

Even then I myself didn't think any of this was serious until I saw a number of programs about people who had undergone such experiences. What was striking was how uniform the descriptions were of how especially nasty and cruel such 'beings' were.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Owen Jones

29-08-2007, 05:17 PM

The first book claiming that aliens from other planets had "seeded" the earth was written in the 16th century, which is when the idea of atheism first began to find cultural acceptance. The point is that we have to come from somewhere, and if you eliminate God from the picture, you have to create aliens from outer space to explain why we are here. Of course, that begs the question of where they come from?????

The widespread acceptance of intelligent alien life forms is right up there with the broad acceptance of astrology. We live in a very superstitious age.

Robert Hegwood

29-08-2007, 05:57 PM

This is an area of no little interest to me. In my life I've seen 11 UFO's two of which I observed being chased by jets out of Patrick Air Force Base. But that was all long ago. And though I've been in the Orthodox Church many years now I've yet to encounter what strikes me as a good answer.

When it comes to abduction experiences I'm inclined to agree with Fr. Seraphim. I recall once trying to get abducted as a teenager. The UFO that I was trying to wave down one night over the open pasture where I was camping turned out to be a brightly lit low flying cargo plane whose engines I couldn't hear right away because of wind direction. Needless to say I was disappointed....a couple of years latter I became a Charismatic...which given Fr. Seraphim's insights is not such a far fetched connection. Hopefully I've learned better since then.

Still when I consider the emensity of the universe and its billions of galaxies...that's a whole lot of empty real estate for there just to be us in all of it. Now I could believe that we are the only sentient material beings out there, but that life of some lesser sort exists in the great out black. And perhaps it is the native hue of my 20th century American upbringing and its ideation of manifest destiny that inclines me to think that at some point we should be out there visiting, colonizing, being fruitful and multipling anywhere it makes sense to do so. But that said I'm in no hurry to witness the ecclesial mahem that will undoubtedly ensue with regard to the establishment of a canonical liturgical calendar for Mars. It will either have to be expanded to fill the natural cycle of the native year or two traditional cycles will have to be cojoined in some inelegant overlay of the natural year. Either way doubtless one faction will declare the other to be without grace and vis versa.

On a more serious note (just barely) I do seem to recall reading how one more recent saint said that there was indeed other life out there, just that it was not of a sort we would easily recognize as life. I can buy that too....though I still want us to go visit it, live with it and maybe bring some home as pets...or open a diplomatic mission...whichever is more appropriate.

The big question is not are UFO's alien visitors, but is there other life like what know as life out in the universe, sentient or not. There is something in us that recoils from the idea that in all that vastness we are the only mote of biological life that exists. And thus we want very badly for it to be filled if not in fact then at least in our imaginations. Maybe before the fall we were meant to seed the life here out there. Maybe after the Judgement and the restoration of all things that opportunity will arise again. But right now, we just don't know definatively one way or the other and it is an itch that we are unable to scratch.

The question gets more complicated if we ask about the existance of other sentient life for we have to ask what their sentience means in relation to our own, as well as how our fall affected them theologically. Are they necessarily holy and unfallen, or fallen also in some way because of us. And if they are sentient and fallen then how does the soteriology of the Church apply to them? If they are sentient, are fallen, and can be saved, can be joined to the Church then at some juncture we will have to send missionaries...someone tell Vladimir P. we need that skete set up on Mars pronto. Of course if they are not fallen then C. S. Lewis's specualtion seems more apt...that earth is quarrantined for the duration of the fall.

In truth I don't know what to think. I just know I would like for there to be life out there, even sentient life advanced technologically or not. And short of that...or in conjunction with that I want us to go out there and stake out some new dirt, spread earth's life there in places where there is none. But that is just what I would like to think or would like to see happen. The bottom line is though we don't know and God doesn't seem to be overly concerned in giving us quick definative answers on that point. Perhaps the best answer to the question of life out there is just "maybe" and should it please God one day He will let us know one way or the other if it is good for the salvation of our souls.

Andreas Moran

29-08-2007, 07:50 PM

Father Serafim

29-08-2007, 09:14 PM

St Nicodemos tells us that Man is a macro-cosmos compared to the universe. We are greater than the stars, nebulae etc. As for aliens - are these not a part of the great deception? And there shall be signs and wonders to delude the non-believers.

I agree with Fr Seraphim Rose that aliens are demons.

Kornelius

29-08-2007, 09:32 PM

I wonder whats the view of the Church about aliens. I would ask someone to tell me about this. Thanks.

Taking the information from both Fr. Raphael Vereshack and Mike Stickles is a good place to start. At least two of the articles, as Mike correctly points out, are partially or wholly based from the book of Fr. Seraphim Rose, Orthodoxy and the Reilgion of the Future, a book worth reading for other New Age related themes.

Fr. Seraphim, gives a patristic understanding of these demonic entities, whose appearances are not limited to our modern era. They are fallen beings and as such - despite the fact that they are spiritual beings - they have a constant proclivity toward materiality. They can take any deceiving shape or form, even the ones of angels, saints, Panagia and Christ. It is done through the deception and manipulation of our senses, to doom us spiritually.

Geronda Paisios who was often visited by St. Ephimia, before even addressing her, he would take her in front of the icon of the Holy Trinity and tell her to prostrate herself. Since Satan would never do such a thing, he was sure, after the prostrations that she was indeed St. Ephimia.

Another fact regarding UFO's (Unidentified Flying Objects), not alien beings, stems not from the spiritual milieu, but rather from the technological and scientific realm. It is documented that such technology was created by Nicola Tesla, the forgotten genius, at the beginning of the 20th century. A flying entity that had solved the gravitational issue; hence, the erratic movement of the flying saucer.

Also at MIT, a group of scientist are currently contemplating the possibility of creating a pushing force rather than pulling force between molecules and atoms, hoping to use such technology for hovering automobiles.

Remember, however, that whether flying saucers are derivative of human technology or not, that does not mean that seeing one implies that they are made on earth per se. Satan may create, as I mentioned previously, any illusion he wants, including flying saucers.

Nina

30-08-2007, 04:49 AM

I know nothing about this issue, but when aliens are on TV, or movies they appear so loathsome, nauseating and repulsive, that I detest those images. We know to whom such epithets are ascribed in the lives/works of the Fathers. Extraterrestrials - as we know them from the media - can not be the work of our God. Our Christ is beauty, harmony, symmetry etc.

Effie Ganatsios

30-08-2007, 06:40 PM

There is a basic fallacy in the notion that because the universe is so big, there must be life out there somewhere. The fallacy is to confuse scale and complexity. In scale, earth is tiny. But life on earth is incredibly more complex than any amount of gas, ice and rock, etc. The life on earth is unique and the centre of God's creation because of its complexity, and the universe needs to be the size it is to sustain the earth, the solar system, etc.

Andrew, I don't know whether "aliens" or alien forms of life have visited or are visiting our earth but logically, there has to be life on other planets. Maybe not the life we know, but life. There are millions of millions of planets out there, it is impossibile to believe and against all odds that no forms of life exist on any of them.

Effie

Herman Blaydoe

30-08-2007, 07:01 PM

There are millions of millions of planets out there, it is impossibile to believe and against all odds that no forms of life exist on any of them.

Nothing is impossible, don't you know? Certainly it is possible. Sorry, but this line of reasoning belongs to what I call the religion of the 10 monkeys. That is, the "theory" that if you put ten monkeys in a room with ten typewriters, eventually they would, by random chance, recreate every novel ever written. After all there are only so many different ways you can combine the finite letters of the aiphabet, so, given enough years, centuries, millenia, wouldn't it be IMPOSSIBLE NOT to?

This is the religion of scientism. Just make the number big enough. If millions of years or planets doesn't do it, make it billions, or trillions. At some point the number will be big enough to be impressive.

If God has created life in other places, what is it to us? And if He hasn't, who are we to say that such a thing is impossible?

Hey, maybe, just maybe WE are the "first" race intended to populate the universe, to be who other races will eventually wonder about when they finally think about "how did we get here"?

Or how about the possibility, due to those REALLY BIG NUMBERS that we are throwing around here, that the chance that we and any other sentient race that might exist might actually bump into each other is really pretty small to the point it makes winning a lottery you didn't even enter likely?

So, I don't think it is impossible at all. God knows.

Reminds me of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy which states that in an "infinite" Universe, we know that the number of planets that might actually be inhabited will be a finite number. And if you divide infinity by any finite number, no matter how big, the probability that you would actually meet is so incredibly small that you might as well assumme that anyone you actually DO meet is simply a figment of your imagination....

Father David Moser

30-08-2007, 07:53 PM

I do not doubt that "life" exists throughout the created universe. Biological life is an integral part of creation, inherent in the very structure of the original creation. This life, however, is plant life, that is life without a soul (in patristic taxonomy which is not necessarily consistent with the evolutionary based taxonomy developed by Linneaus in the 19th Century). Animal life, that is life with a mortal soul, is a second special creation and Human life, that is life with an immortal soul, is a third special creation. I find it highly likely that there will be "plant" life throughout the universe, however, I would find the presence of "animal" life or "human" life to highly unlikely (although animal life could be possible...)

Modern scientific and philosophic thought takes the position that the presence of any life implies the possibility of "human" or what is usually referred to as "intelligent" life. Orthodoxy, of course, does not accept this premise. Those enemies of mankind (the demonic forces), however, can use the popular perceptions of "life" to create a deception leading us away from God. These deceptions (such as the existence of extra-terrestrial "intelligent" life) distort the divine reality, distort our understanding of God, of our place in creation, of the means and need for our salvation, and our place in eternity thus leading us astray from the path of salvation. This then leads us directly back to Fr Seraphim's position that such manifestations (UFOs, alien life, etc) are demonic in nature, meant to deceive and to distract us from the path of salvation.

Fr David Moser

Fr David MOser

Andreas Moran

30-08-2007, 09:33 PM

Of course, we cannot know, but I believe (on the basis of nothing at all) that there is no other life in the universe. I think that the earth is the centre of creation, not in its location obviously as used to be believed but in terms of God's love. When I consider the universe, I think, 'and God did all this for us, out of love'.

Effie Ganatsios

31-08-2007, 10:44 AM

Father David wrote : "This then leads us directly back to Fr Seraphim's position that such manifestations (UFOs, alien life, etc) are demonic in nature, meant to deceive and to distract us from the path of salvation."

Father David, these manifestations are something I know nothing about and I agree that satan is the master of deception and that he is capable of manifesting whatever he wants to.

What I am saying is that it is logical to suppose that out of the countless millions of planets some would have the right conditions to support various types of life.

Effie

Herman Blaydoe

31-08-2007, 11:59 AM

What I am saying is that it is logical to suppose that out of the countless millions of planets some would have the right conditions to support various types of life.

Think about it. What you are REALLY saying is that "life" happens accidentally, and that "life" happens "behind God's back", so to speak. IF life exists anywhere, it is because God wills it so, not because "conditions" happened to be "right". Random chance substitutes for God, that is what the atheists wanted all along. God is bigger than our "logic".

Effie Ganatsios

31-08-2007, 04:08 PM

Think about it. What you are REALLY saying is that "life" happens accidentally, and that "life" happens "behind God's back", so to speak. IF life exists anywhere, it is because God wills it so, not because "conditions" happened to be "right". Random chance substitutes for God, that is what the atheists wanted all along. God is bigger than our "logic".

I am sorry Herman, but that is not what I am saying. You are limiting God, by assuming that our one tiny planet is his only creation.

"Now let us look into the deep, dark night, from earth up to heaven. How many stars we see scattered there. There is an infinite number of them! Many of the stars are just like our star, the sun. There are some that are many times larger than ours, but they are so far away from the earth that they seem to us to be tiny, twinkling pinpoints of light. They are all in motion in an orderly and harmonious manner, according to definite paths and laws. Our earth amid the heavenly vastness seems like a tiny speck of light.

The world of God is vast, uncontainable! We can neither account for nor measure it all, for only ‘God, Who created everything, knows the measure and weight and number of all things."

Effie

Father David Moser

31-08-2007, 04:12 PM

What I am saying is that it is logical to suppose that out of the countless millions of planets some would have the right conditions to support various types of life.

Yes, bodily life (that is plant life) can arise in any place where conditions are "right" to support it. However, according to the scripture, animal life (that is a body with a mortal soul) requires not only the "right conditions" but also a creative act by God. And human life "intelligent life" (that is a body with an immortal soul, a spiritual component) requires a further creative act by God. My point is that these creative acts are "discontinuous" points within any kind of "evolutionary" or "developmental" process that science can describe. Science (as of now anyway) can't even begin to define the soul or locate it, let alone adequately study it and explain its origins.

Thus we will find bodily life throughout the created universe (I do not doubt that at all) and the scriptural/patristic witness leaves room to argue that the creative act giving rise to the animals could also have been "universal" (St Basil says something like that the animals are the natural "fruit" of the earth, or water, or air from which they arose - but again I think it might be stretching it just a bit to make this universally applicable) however I find no such room for making the assumption that what we call in this context "intelligent life" could be a universal action as it is intensely personal between God and Adam.

In any case the assumption that even animal life would naturally arise where ever conditions were right neglects the necessity for a unique creative act by God for animals to even exist. So if we leave God out of the picture, then the demonic deception - whether an "alien encounter" or a "scientific approach" - is successful for we have "forgotten" God or at best we impose our "truth" upon God who is Truth and demand that He follow our scientific rules. (this also philosophically goes to the political idea of the "rule of law" - which is one of the fundamental principles of modern democracy. The law is supreme and all living beings are subject to it. The problem, of course is that if there was a law to which God was subject, then there is something greater than God. But that's a different discussion which is only tangentially connected to this)

Fr David Moser

Fr Raphael Vereshack

31-08-2007, 04:23 PM

The only reason we understand anything within creation is because it has purpose within a certain Divine context. This insight of what ties creation & the whole universe together is fundamental to the Patristic insight. In other words commonality of nature is the only reason we understand anything about nature. It is the only reason we are aware of its existence and anything about its existence.

The existence of 'other beings' however is predicated on the idea of an infinite universe offering infinite possibilities, which is a physical let alone theological impossibility. Such a universe does not exist- it is only the attempt of modern man to drag divine attributes down to the material or desacralized level.

The inner contradiction of the idea of 'other creatures' then is that if they existed we would be as completely unaware of their existence as they would be of ours.

The only interesting thing about 'aliens' then is how they come more or less in our shape and with our sense of what consciousness means. Whether invented by us or actually existing this surely states something as to what their actual purpose is.

In Christ- Fr Raphael
PS; right after I posted this I noticed Fr David's post above which appeared in the meantime. We both seem to be saying the same thing in different ways.

Effie Ganatsios

31-08-2007, 04:39 PM

Praise ye Him, O sun and moon, praise Him,
all ye stars and light. Praise Him ye heavens
of heavens: and let the waters that are above
the heavens praise the name of the Lord, for
He spoke, and they were made; He commanded,
and they were created.

Psalm 148, 3 - 5

O joyful light of the holy glory of the Father
Immortal, the heavenly, holy, blessed One,
O Jesus Christ, Now that we have reached the
setting of the sun, and see the evening light,
we sing to God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
It is fitting at all times to raise a song of praise
in measured melody to You, O Son of God,
the giver of life. Behold the universe sings Your
glory.

Vespers hymn following the Little Entrance

God is the Creator of all the Universe, not just the earth.

Effie Ganatsios

31-08-2007, 04:56 PM

There seems to be a difference of opinion of what the word "life" means.

I was not referring to "aliens" or whatever.

"Microorganisms live almost everywhere on earth where there is liquid water, including hot springs on the ocean floor and deep inside rocks within the earth's crust."

We know that life = microorganisms can exist in impossibly high and low temperatures. They do not need much else besides water as far as I know. Is it impossible to imagine that there are planets other than the earth with life on them?

Herman Blaydoe

31-08-2007, 05:30 PM

Is it impossible to imagine that there are planets other than the earth with life on them?

No, but does there HAVE to be? The priests here are saying that IF there is "life" elsewhere, God had to put it there, but God doesn't "have" to do anything, so it is just as possible to believe that there is no life elsewhere.

Are you familiar with the SETI project? We have been scanning the skies for decades, harnessing the collective power of thousands of computers to analyze the eletromagnetic spectra to find even the smallest indication that intelligent life might exist somewhere. Despite intense efforts and interest, and several proven hoaxes, there are NO verifiable evidence of even the possibility of "life" however you define it beyond a vague "hope" and some blind faith in random chance.

Is there NO possibility of extraterrestrial life? I, personally, am not ready to go that far, although some reasonable justification for such a belief has been put forward. At any rate, the existance or nonexistance of extraterrestrial life has no bearing that I can see on my ultimate salvation which I am still trying to work out in fear and trembling. These things are "fun" to speculate on, but saying there MUST be something out there just because the universe is BIG is a canard, the logic is flawed, and plays right into the hands of the atheists IMO.

Effie Ganatsios

31-08-2007, 05:44 PM

No, but does there HAVE to be? The priests here are saying that IF there is "life" elsewhere, God had to put it there, but God doesn't "have" to do anything, so it is just as possible to believe that there is no life elsewhere.

Are you familiar with the SETI project? We have been scanning the skies for decades, harnessing the collective power of thousands of computers to analyze the eletromatic spectra to find even the smallest indication that intelligent life might exist somewhere. Despite intense efforts and interest, and several proven hoaxes, there are NO verifiable evidence of even the possibility of "life" however you define it beyond a vague "hope" and some blind faith in random chance.

Is there NO possibility of extraterrestrial life? I, personally, am not ready to go that far, although some reasonable justification for such a belief has been put forward. At any rate, the existance or nonexistance of extraterrestrial life has no bearing that I can see on my ultimate salvation which I am still trying to work out in fear and trembling. These things are "fun" to speculate on, but saying there MUST be something out there just because the universe is BIG is a canard, the logic is flawed, and plays right into the hands of the atheists IMO.

Herman, I see we basically don't disagree. The SETI programme is the one that scans the heavens for radio signals or something, isn't it? Again, I just want to emphasize that I was not referring to aliens etc. We have no knowledge of what is or isn't in the heavens. There are a lot of theories, but most of our "knowledge" is really only theory. In some things what scientiest believed 50 years ago is not what they believe today. The only thing that I am certain of is that God created not just this earth of ours but all of Creation.

I guess I better stop here because while researching for this subject, trying to find what the Greek Orthodox Church has written about this subject I found this :

18th Century Russia.

" Let it be known that nobody under any circumstances may dare write or print anything about the multiplicity of worlds any more than about anything else that is opposed to the holy faith and is not in agreement with honest morals; and let this be on pain of the severest punishment for such a crime."

These are the terms of an ukase that the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church requested the Empress Elizabeth Petrovna to issue in a petition of the 21st December 1756."

Things were pretty strict then, weren't they?

Effie

Father David Moser

31-08-2007, 06:20 PM

We know that life = microorganisms can exist in impossibly high and low temperatures. They do not need much else besides water as far as I know. Is it impossible to imagine that there are planets other than the earth with life on them?

Exactly as I said - bodily (plant) life should be abundant throughout the created universe as it appears to be integral to the nature of created energy/matter. It is when we get to the animal (ensouled) and human (spirit endowed) life that there are "disconnects" that require specific divine intervention.

So I guess we agree!

Fr David Moser

Andreas Moran

31-08-2007, 06:49 PM

I assume God does nothing without purpose. I'm sure everything organic and inorganic on earth has some role in the earth's existence as the centre of His love and attention. Why would He create even very simple organic life anywhere else? As a bit of whimsy? He has no need for anything He creates. I'm sure He loves all He has created throughout the universe but simply because of the role it plays in maintaining earth's existence.

Paul Cowan

01-09-2007, 03:01 AM

We haven't even fully explored our own planet and people want to jump off and go trapsing around looking for other life. Let's first master our own little universe and then worry IF somebody "out there" shows up. I am sure we will have quite a wait.

We destroy this planet faster every year. Yet there are untold mysteries just below the surface of our oceans. If people want to see untold "aliens" look at what they are finding under the waters.

Paul

John King

01-09-2007, 03:07 PM

Exactly as I said - bodily (plant) life should be abundant throughout the created universe as it appears to be integral to the nature of created energy/matter. It is when we get to the animal (ensouled) and human (spirit endowed) life that there are "disconnects" that require specific divine intervention.

So I guess we agree!

Fr David Moser

Father David is absolutely correct.

In the 1950s an American scientist, a Dr. Miller, recreated what he believed to have been the atmosphere on earth millions of years ago (methane, ammonia and carbon dioxide) and passed electrical discharges through it to simulate lightning.

After a few days he analysed the contents of the large glass globe wherein the experiment had been conducted, and found organic chemicals, including amino acids, the 'building blocks' of all plant and animal tissues. To this day, however, scientists claim to be frustrated because they cannot find an explanation for what gave these chemical the 'spark of life' and produced the first creatures, except for the scientists who believe in God that is.

Anthony

01-09-2007, 05:35 PM

18th Century Russia.

" Let it be known that nobody under any circumstances may dare write or print anything about the multiplicity of worlds any more than about anything else that is opposed to the holy faith and is not in agreement with honest morals; and let this be on pain of the severest punishment for such a crime."

These are the terms of an ukase that the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church requested the Empress Elizabeth Petrovna to issue in a petition of the 21st December 1756."

I am only guessing here, but I am wondering if that could refer to the idea of "possible worlds" (i.e. universes) developed by some philosophers, rather than to the question of extraterrestrial life.

As regards the latter I am completely agnostic, though I have found the discussion interesting.

Robert Hegwood

07-09-2007, 07:21 AM

Olga

07-09-2007, 08:00 AM

Are you familiar with the SETI project? We have been scanning the skies for decades, harnessing the collective power of thousands of computers to analyze the eletromatic spectra to find even the smallest indication that intelligent life might exist somewhere. Despite intense efforts and interest, and several proven hoaxes, there are NO verifiable evidence of even the possibility of "life" however you define it beyond a vague "hope" and some blind faith in random chance.

If I may make a comment on the SETI project: One of the elements of the project was to send into space two items: a plaque with various objects and signs inscribed on it, including the figures of a smiling man and woman with one hand raised in friendly greeting, and a diagram of the Earth relative to the Sun and the other planets of our solar system; and a device similar to a simple record player, with "instructions" in pictorial form as to how the gold-plated record could be played. The tracks on the record were an assortment of "sounds of the Earth", ranging from birdsong, waterfalls, animal calls, spoken word, and a broad range of music samples, ranging from indigenous/tribal, folk, jazz, classical and rock (the opening riff of Chuck Berry's Johnny B Goode - well, what else should it have been? ;))

I was a teenager when this assembly was sent into space with great hope and fanfare. Even then, and more so now, after a tertiary qualification in a scientific discipline, I thought this aspect of SETI was rather ridiculous. If an alien life form were to intercept these objects, the chances that their interpretation of either the plaque bearing "Greetings from Earth" or the successful playing of the record are negligible. Typical groovy '70s optimism? Probably.

The current efforts by astronomers in analysing the chemical compositions of the atmospheres and structure of outer planets and asteroids at least has a better chance of discovering the possibility of life (of whatever form, intelligent or otherwise) on other "worlds".

Fr Raphael Vereshack

07-09-2007, 04:02 PM

Perhaps it is useful to note that in Genesis God did not directly create either animals or plants, rather He spoke to the water and to the land and told them to bring forth various kinds of life. Perhaps God made the foundational componants of creation fecund and life generating. That could mean perhaps that plant and a certian level of animal life might be possible on other suitably hospitable planets. Perhaps life is made to be an emmergent property of matter given the right conditions? Just a thought.

I'm not sure this is right Seraphim. Usually wherever in Genesis 1 it says: "And God said", the Fathers interpret this as creation from nothing (ex nihilo) not a derivative creation. The creation of both plants ( Gen 1: 11- 12) and animals (Gen 1: 20-25) is referred to as a result of "And God said."

A second reason the Fathers would have greatly hesitated about a derivative creation is that in their historical context this would have meant creation from matter existing co-eternally with God which was the idea common for the philosophy of the time. This is different than the derivative creation expressed in more modern ideas about creation but it is doubtful the Fathers would have heard of this idea in the society they lived in.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

James Aubuchon

07-09-2007, 04:38 PM

It is interesting to note that occultists have claimed that by following certain rituals, they can contact aliens. Much of this seems to be connected to Aliester Crowley in some way. This includes the "dog people" of Sirius (as if an alien race would actually be sentient dogs). You begin to get the picture that actually these alien encounters are spiritual things in some way. When they do communicate, they always seem to have the same sappy new age message for everybody.

Now this does not imply that there are not actually alien races out there. There may be. But it does imply that the so-called interactions with so-called aliens are not what they seem to be.

It's interesting that even the occultists who contact the aliens question the validity of their experiences. They doubt that they have actually contacted aliens, but rather have tapped into the collective psyche or something.

So there seems to be two possibilities. Either the aliens are demons, or they are some sort of manifestation of dissociated thoughts by the person experiencing them (like in the case of schizophrenia).

So I must remain strongly skeptical here.

Jim

Jorgo Ristevski

07-09-2007, 04:38 PM

James Aubuchon

07-09-2007, 04:51 PM

Then if the aliens are demons, what for are all the other planets and moons in the universe? All for us, when the Earth will be over populated so we can continue to live on other planets? And as far as I know (but there is a big chance for me to be wrong) the Bible doesn't say that there are or aren't other planets populated by any beings (sentient or not). Correct me if I'm wrong and forgive me if I said something I shouldn't.

Note what I said in my post:

Now this does not imply that there are not actually alien races out there. There may be. But it does imply that the so-called interactions with so-called aliens are not what they seem to be.

Father David Moser

07-09-2007, 07:18 PM

I'm not sure this is right Seraphim. Usually wherever in Genesis 1 it says: "And God said", the Fathers interpret this as creation from nothing (ex nihilo) not a derivative creation. The creation of both plants ( Gen 1: 11- 12) and animals (Gen 1: 20-25) is referred to as a result of "And God said."

Fr Seraphim Slobodskoy in his text "The Law of God" does in fact differentiate between two different divine actions that characterize the events of creation. One is the action of "creation ex-nihilo" whereas the other is creation by shaping that which already exists. Both of these actions by God are found within the first chapter of Genesis under the beginning "And God said..."

I think also that St Basil the Great does talk about this kind of "derivative creation"

First here (http://www.monachos.net/library/Basil_the_Great_of_Caesarea%2C_Homily_5:_%27The_Ge rmination_of_the_Earth%27):

1. "And God said Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself." It was deep wisdom that commanded the earth, when it rested after discharging the weight of the waters, first to bring forth grass, then wood as we see it doing still at this time. For the voice that was then heard and this command were as a natural and permanent law for it; it gave fertility and the power to produce fruit for all ages to come;

and later (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf208.viii.viii.html)

1. “And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life” after their kind, “and fowl that may fly above the earth” after their kind. Gen. i. 20. ... It still remained for the waters to receive their adornment. The command was given, and immediately the rivers and lakes becoming fruitful brought forth their natural broods; the sea travailed with all kinds of swimming creatures; not even in mud and marshes did the water remain idle; it took its part in creation. Everywhere from its ebullition frogs, gnats and flies came forth. For that which we see to-day is the sign of the past. Thus everywhere the water hastened to obey the Creator’s command.

See here how St Basil instructs us that God instructed the earth to bring forth plants or the water and land to bring forth animal life and in giving that command, gave the earth, water and land the capacity to do so. This I think is a kind of "derivative creation" which is within Orthodox teaching.

A second reason the Fathers would have greatly hesitated about a derivative creation is that in their historical context this would have meant creation from matter existing co-eternally with God which was the idea common for the philosophy of the time. This is different than the derivative creation expressed in more modern ideas about creation but it is doubtful the Fathers would have heard of this idea in the society they lived in.

Here again (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf208.viii.ix.html), I think that St Basil can shed some light:

Yesterday it was said, “Let the waters produce moving things,” and to-day “let the earth bring forth the living creature.” Is the earth then alive? And are the mad-minded Manichæans right in giving it a soul? At these words “Let the earth bring forth,” it did not produce a germ contained in it, but He who gave the order at the same time gifted it with the grace and power to bring forth. When the earth had heard this command “Let the earth bring forth grass and the tree yielding fruit,” it was not grass that it had hidden in it that it caused to spring forth, it did not bring to the surface a palm tree, an oak, a cypress, hitherto kept back in its depths. It is the word of God which forms the nature of things created. “Let the earth bring forth;” that is to say not that she may bring forth that which she has but that she may acquire that which she lacks, when God gives her the power. Even so now, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature,” not the living creature that is contained in herself, but that which the command of God gives her.

Going back to my prior comments, we have to distinguish between the Orthodox idea of God shaping that which has already created out of nothing into a new form - a concept very clear in the first chapter of Genesis - and the heretical idea of there being some pre-existing matter which was not part of God's creative act which somehow was used in creation. A corollary to that heretical idea that St Basil also seems to address is the equally heretical idea that the created earth acted on its own without God's express command in bringing forth life.

Fr David Moser

Andreas Moran

07-09-2007, 07:23 PM

Would derivative creation explain the limited Orthodox acceptance of evolution?

Father David Moser

07-09-2007, 10:24 PM

Would derivative creation explain the limited Orthodox acceptance of evolution?

There are other problems with the popularly accepted idea of evolution that would suggest that for the Orthodox Christian, we emphasize limited acceptance of a limited understanding of evolution.

One patristic example would be to go back to St Basil the Great who makes the point that the variety of animals on the earth arose fully differentiated and all at once. Now that doesn't preclude intraspecies development (a fully documented occurance) but it does kind of throw a monkey wrench (bad pun, I know) into the concept of simple to complex life over millions and billions of years.

Fr David Moser

Jorgo Ristevski

18-09-2007, 10:51 PM

This magazine views aliens and other mysteries and paranormal stuff on Biblical perspective. I don't say that I agree or dissagree with it but f someone can tell me what is the view of the Orthodox Church on this? Thanks.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XU5FSC5K

Hope the link works.

If this file and post is bad forgive me please and delete it.

Nina

18-09-2007, 11:07 PM

When I went to Greece I got a document entitling "the alien, Anthony *****" to residence for a year.

Does that count?

There is a show coming up called 'Aliens in America'.

If you google it you can see some previews.

Jorgo Ristevski

27-01-2008, 07:17 PM

How should an Orhtodox Christian act IF (!) alien existance (sentient aliens) is confirmed?

Father David Moser

27-01-2008, 09:02 PM

How should an Orhtodox Christian act IF (!) alien existance (sentient aliens) is confirmed?

He should attend to his own salvation.

Fr David Moser

Andreas Moran

27-01-2008, 09:15 PM

And if an Orthodox Christian finds fairies at the bottom of his garden? If you encounter an alien, it's likely to be a demon. Tell it to say, 'Jesus Christ is Lord!'

Nina

27-01-2008, 09:20 PM

Tell it to say, 'Jesus Christ is Lord!'

And to make three prostrations in front of the icon of the Holy Trinity. If it is an evil spirit it will not. But thank God I never see good, or evil spirits. Since a Father said:

"Even if an angel was to appear to you do not accept him, but say: "I am not worthy to see such things!'"

Fr Raphael Vereshack

27-01-2008, 10:12 PM

How should an Orhtodox Christian act IF (!) alien existance (sentient aliens) is confirmed?

Reduce alcohol intake as soon as possible.

Paul Cowan

27-01-2008, 11:13 PM

How should an Orhtodox Christian act IF (!) alien existance (sentient aliens) is confirmed?

Jorgo,

Is there something you guys in Macedonia are not telling the rest of us?

It's hard to get along with a Klingon even on a good day, but once you get to know them they are devout in their religious beliefs. Remember it is God who will judge those outside the Church.

Keep in mind that prejudices will always get you into trouble. What may look like a cold and uncaring Vulcan exterior, is only home for a deep feeling kind hearted and hurting person. Although most of us could do with a lot more logic in our lives.

Here is one verse many star-gazing folk turn to to prove the existence of extraterrestrials.
John 15:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Paul

However,

Effie Ganatsios

28-01-2008, 08:59 AM

Paul, what does this verse actually mean? Is it referring to humans in other countries or can it possibly mean other worlds?

Isn't it completely egotistical to believe that of all the billions of planets, our earth is the only one that is inhabited. The odds are against this. The human race will know whether there are aliens or not someday. There is no truth that will not be revealed at some point. No need to worry about this now.

The Fathers tell us not to believe apparent appearances of those we worship or revere. They are not important. They can be real, they can be figments of our imaginations, or, much worse, they can be evil.

The devil is the great liar. Lies are his business.

Some people, believing they have been blessed, become completely neurotic. Humility is the door to God's grace. Without humility we love to believe that God has blessed us and made us somehow more than other insignificant people who have not had our experiences. The devil even tempted Christ, knowing who He was. Do you seriously believe he won't use our egotism to tempt us into making fools of ourselves by believing that we are more than our fellowmen?

Effie

Kosta

28-01-2008, 11:15 AM

Whatever life forms may exist outside our planet whether it be microscopic bacteria to advanced species, know that God created everything thru the Logos, who in the fullness of time was incarnate by the Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit and became human.

As Hebrews 1.2 instructs us, "Has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (plural)".

And as our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ taught us, "In My Father's house there are many mansons...."(Jn 14.2)

Whatever may or may not exist in the beyond, should not scare us nor make us doubt. For our God is the Creator of all things visible and invisible.

Effie Ganatsios

28-01-2008, 11:39 AM

Andreas Moran

28-01-2008, 11:57 AM

I repeat what I said earlier in this thread. Christ came once into His Creation, and, for us men and for our salvation, took human form once, was crucified once, was buried once, rose from the dead once, ascended into heaven once. All on earth. If there were beings elsewhere in need of salvation, He would have to go wherever they were and do it all again. But He did all this for us; once; on earth. To say there are other beings 'out there' is nonsense and tears holes in the Creed. And I prefer to be guided by the Creed rather than shifting scientific speculations. IMHO.

Michael Stickles

28-01-2008, 01:03 PM

Isn't it completely egotistical to believe that of all the billions of planets, our earth is the only one that is inhabited. The odds are against this.

Not necessarily. I remember seeing an equation once for calculating the odds of life elsewhere in the universe, and depending on your assumptions, you can come up with a result anywhere from near-certainty to near-impossibility.

Of course, the real question is "did God create life anywhere else?" He hasn't told us (as far as I know), so I tend to go with Effie on this:

There is no truth that will not be revealed at some point. No need to worry about this now.

I'm afraid I can't quite agree with Andreas:

I repeat what I said earlier in this thread. Christ came once into His Creation, and, for us men and for our salvation, took human form once, was crucified once, was buried once, rose from the dead once, ascended into heaven once. All on earth. If there were beings elsewhere in need of salvation, He would have to go wherever they were and do it all again. But He did all this for us; once; on earth. To say there are other beings 'out there' is nonsense and tears holes in the Creed. And I prefer to be guided by the Creed rather than shifting scientific speculations. IMHO.

If there are beings elsewhere, must they be in need of salvation? Perhaps they never strayed, and their little part of the cosmos is an island of anti-entropy amidst the rest of the groaning creation. Or, if they strayed and also share our human nature, Christ's sacrifice on Earth would apply to them too. If they don't share our nature, perhaps the appropriate means of redemption for them is something completely different.

I do agree with his last sentence, I just don't think it rules out sentient life elsewhere in the cosmos. I don't think there is any such life out there, but that's because of my view of creation, and I would be equally unsurprised to be proven right or proven wrong.

Mike

Andreas Moran

28-01-2008, 02:30 PM

If there are beings elsewhere, must they be in need of salvation?

Yes - the entire universe was involved in the Fall.

Perhaps they never strayed, and their little part of the cosmos is an island of anti-entropy amidst the rest of the groaning creation.

A still-existing Garden of Eden among the stars? I don't think so.

Or, if they strayed and also share our human nature, Christ's sacrifice on Earth would apply to them too.

No, it could not apply to them. They wouldn't know about it and would not have heard Christ's preaching and would not have the Gospels. They would not be in the Church. There are no sacraments 'out there' and so no salvation.

If they don't share our nature, perhaps the appropriate means of redemption for them is something completely different.

Our nature is based on being made in God's image and in His likeness and so the pinnacle of His creation as the Fathers say. Christ as Second Person of the Holy Trinity united His Divine Nature with our created nature to give us salvation. Such is the divinely ordained way of redemption. It is unspeakable to think that He might save beings of another nature by uniting that nature with His Divine Nature. Without the Divine Christ assuming the nature of His creature, there is no redemption.

I don't think there is any such life out there, but that's because of my view of creation

Your view and mine are based on what the Church teaches.

Everything happened once in one place ergo no aliens.

Fr Raphael Vereshack

28-01-2008, 03:14 PM

The point of 'other beings' is to try to show that man's value is only relative within the larger cosmos. But notice that every effort to describe such beings ends up portraying only a version of man, of what we believe man is.

The Patristic perspective is that man is the 'center of the universe' in the sense that he is created as microcosm. That is: he serves a specific salvific purpose within the economy of the entire universe.

Personally, I think that only a belief in extreme evolutionism (ie everything left to itself develops in a 'higher way') can allow us to consider other beings.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Michael Stickles

28-01-2008, 04:26 PM

No, it could not apply to them. They wouldn't know about it and would not have heard Christ's preaching and would not have the Gospels. They would not be in the Church. There are no sacraments 'out there' and so no salvation.

Non sequitur. Assuming God created beings elsewhere in the universe, and that they share our humanity and fallen state, then Christ could easily have appeared to them after His resurrection (as some of the "other sheep not of this flock"), taught them, and directly called apostles (as He did with Paul); a priesthood and sacraments are not excluded here (yes, I know it's kinda Mormon-sounding). And why should congregations of the Church need physical proximity to have unity? (not that having proximity has always worked out smoothly...)

As I see it, the reason to believe God did not create any such beings is not due to any inherent logical contradiction in the concept but more along the lines Fr Raphael gave.

I hope I don't come across as combative here. It's just part of my mindset as a long-time science fiction reader - I see what appears on first glance to be impossible, and I automatically try to figure out how it could be possible (by the way, nice airtight rebuttal to the "different means of salvation" idea). Without that way of thinking, I doubt I'd have been able to make the mental switch from Protestantism to Orthodoxy. Anyway, if alien sentients were discovered, it wouldn't be a shock to my faith -- though, if it did happen, my first assumption would be demonic activity, not a true alien race.

Mike

Fr Raphael Vereshack

28-01-2008, 04:55 PM

Mike Stickles wrote:
It's just part of my mindset as a long-time science fiction reader - I see what appears on first glance to be impossible, and I automatically try to figure out how it could be possible.

Taking the scientific argument in itself it is more likely that 'other beings' would appear in a form we could not recognize. That is because recognition is connected to being. The whole point of evolution after all is the relativity of being.

Again it's interesting that in science fiction these other beings always appear as aspects of what humans actually are. In science fiction this is obviously an artistic tool & a very creative one also.

In any case the point is that really science fiction is one of those artistic vehicles for referring to what we believe we are. Note the science fiction which expresses concern about the effects of technology and peace. Now it seems to project a global image of man. It rarely even attempts to really be about other beings.

Although even if it did I suspect it would have to portray something like two ships passing each other unknowingly in the night. In which case the other beings would be irrelevant anyway.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Andreas Moran

28-01-2008, 05:15 PM

I hope I don't come across as combative here. Of course not - good debate!

Christ could easily have appeared to them after His resurrection (as some of the "other sheep not of this flock"), taught them, and directly called apostles (as He did with Paul)

Then why did not Christ just come down from heaven to start with? What is our faith without the experience the disciples had of Christ's humanity, suffering and death? How could these 'others' know that Christ had conquered death if no one there had seen Him die on the Cross?

Our nature is based on being made in God's image and in His likeness and so the pinnacle of His creation as the Fathers say.

The Patristic perspective is that man is the 'center of the universe' in the sense that he is created as microcosm. That is: he serves a specific salvific purpose within the economy of the entire universe.

Herman Blaydoe

28-01-2008, 06:29 PM

...next (first?) time I meet an extraterrestrial and can determine there is no demonic deception, I'll ask he/she/it and get back to you all...

Andreas Moran

28-01-2008, 06:33 PM

Not to me , Herman - I know they don't exist!

Michael Stickles

28-01-2008, 07:36 PM

Then why did not Christ just come down from heaven to start with?

Actually, I've wondered that same thing before, and without considering sentient aliens. Haven't taken time to look for any Patristic writings on that question (come to think of it, did any of them write on that question?).

What is our faith without the experience the disciples had of Christ's humanity, suffering and death? How could these 'others' know that Christ had conquered death if no one there had seen Him die on the Cross?

Instead of testimony of the disciples' experience, they'd get first-hand testimony of His experience, as well as direct experience of Him (post-resurrection, granted). And has anyone here seen Him die on the cross? I'm relying on first- and second-hand testimony of that; so would they, along with the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

It's possible to conceive of ways of communicating - say, clairvoyant telempathy - which would make a firsthand account practically the same as being there. That's one I've experienced, so it's not totally out in la-la land. Sigh - it's almost too bad there aren't any real non-demonic clairvoyantly telempathic aliens so we could watch it at work (Hmmm, what would we see, though? Ah, skip it - one question at a time.).

Heh - this is starting to remind me of some of the philosophical arguments we used to have back in college, debating the possibility or plausibility of what were almost certainly non-existent scenarios (if I had a couple of pizza boxes, a bag of chips and a couple two-liter bottles of soda [all empty] on my desk, the similarity would be almost complete...). Stretched the mind, though -- or, at least, I hope it did, otherwise it was all likely a gigantic waste of time.

Mike

Robert Hegwood

28-01-2008, 09:20 PM

Strangely enough, this sort of thing is something I've pondered over extensively for many years. Within the past year I have read within the writings of some saint or blessed elder the affirmation that there is indeed life out there though it is not of a sort we are apt to quickly recognize as life. He didn't say whether or not it was sentient life.

It is the question of sentient life I think that gives us the greatest pause. Now we do believe in other created intelligences than our own, namely the various and myriad kinds of angels both holy and fallen...whatever the natures particular to them might be. And from what I can tell we do regard holy angels as being part of the Church in some way...just not quite the way we are. Consider the passage...I believe in Hebrews...about us coming to the Heavenly City, Mt. Zion and the assembly of all the saints and angels etc.

Our problem is with the possibility of material sentiences like ourselves and the theological questions it raises. If we were to discover firm evidence of organic life on other planets...say if the Lord tarries long enough for us to actually get out there and investigate a few, and that life ranged anywhere from bacteria to algae to flora and fauna as complex and varied as what we find here on earth...not including man or any analog for him, then our theological vision might be stretched a little but it would not present any major challenges...indeed if it could be shown that for all the life or whatever sort that was discovered out there there was nothing remotely like what man is, or theologically speaking, may be, then the uniqueness of man gets underscored.

But other material sentiences raise a host of issues: Are they saved or do they need to be? What is their relationship to Christ and Church or what should it be? What theological provision/preparation has been given to them already by God? If they can be in the Church what offices/roles are open to them...can they have their own bishops, priests, and deacons...or must all but minor clergy be human? What if the material conditions of their existence are far different from our own thus creating a natural barrier to key aspects of traditional liturgical life...say what if they are "water" creatures swimming in methane oceans and streams on a world that to us is super cold...growing wheat much less baking prosphora is going to present a challenge.

Personally I've grown less inclined to believe in the possibility of other material sentient life out there, though not utterly closed to the possibility, however the possibility of nonsentient life does not seem to me to be an unreasonable speculation at all....though it and a "just earth" point of view opens another very interesting can of speculation.

If biological life or at the very least sentient biological life is limited just to earth and by extension those parts of the solar system within our current technological reach, then God made a whole great lot of empty real estate that has to be for something more that just for us to look at and study from afar. If life is just here then is it because this this the spot of creation that God spoke to as the sperma for all the rest. Is life here meant at some point to seed the rest of habitable creation? Perhaps the fall put a damper on that purpose until things were fixed...but afterwards...spaceward ho for ferns, daylillies, St. Augustine grasss, tree frogs, squirrels, hamsters, deer, and marmosets et al. Or need we wait till then?

Of course that brings up all kinds of other potential problems...which calendar will we use on Mars? It has a natural year almost twice as long as earth...will we stitch two earth liturgical cycles together or stretch the one out with new months and feast and fast days? Or would we just map the liturgical cycle to earth without reference to the natural year of Mars? And once well away from earth...what then, all the natural temporal clues that our liturgical cycles grew up around would be beyond natural reference. Pascha here is set in accord with a particular lunar cycle...far outside the solar system as years pass who would be able to tell for sure exactly when everyone else on earth was keeping Lent or keeping the great Feast? Perhaps the "when in Rome" rule would develop some extraterrestrial legs.

And speaking of legs and sentience...would our science ever permit us to tinker up some other earth creature into sentience as well and spread them to worlds that would be their own? Would God permit it..if He did what would it mean theologically (almost the same problems with aliens...but not quite, and not all).

In the end though...absent the actual occurence of such things I think our questions about them are but surrogate ways...crypto-apophatic way perhaps of wrestling with another and more fundamental question, namely, "What is man that Thou art mindful of him?" If we can ever pin down all that we are not or which cannot be us, we might stand closer to understanding what we are and what we may yet be.

Father Serafim

28-01-2008, 10:02 PM

In comparison with the universe at large, man is a puny organizm. However man should not be considered in terms of his physical makeup but rather his spiritual. According to St Gregory the Theologian, man is a macrocosmos within a microcosmos. In other words we are bigger than the universe. All these speculations about aliens belongs to the realm of fallen knowledge. None of the Fathers bothered to debate such nonsense. The enormity of the universe is beyond our intellect but not beyond the spiritual mind of the the saints. I notice with UFOs, for example, that the technology reflects the current situation. Earlier sightings look like what we believed centuries ago. The demon are diligent to update their false visions.
In the last days there will signs and wonders in the heavens and this will most likely include messags from spaces and then the Antichrist will appear and explain to us that we are not macrocosmoi but just part of a bigger, better divine plan. Scientologists and Mormons already believe this. I hope we as Orthodox Christians, do not.

Owen Jones

28-01-2008, 10:14 PM

The SETI project has been shut down for lack of funding, due to lack of results, but not for lack of trying. Billions were spent. All because of a new form of spiritual alienation. The world is experienced as being too small. As something that we must try to escape; get beyond.

One cannot really properly address the UFO phenomenon other than satirically, which Men In Black does quite nicely.

Andreas Moran

29-01-2008, 12:33 AM

Antonios

29-01-2008, 05:58 AM

One cannot really properly address the UFO phenomenon other than satirically, which Men In Black does quite nicely.

Dear Owen,

I found this simply stated and hilarious!

In Christ,
Antonios

Michael Stickles

29-01-2008, 12:26 PM

As I think I have mentioned before, it is wrong to confuse scale and complexity. The universe seems on a vast scale to us, but we are by far the most complex 'things' in it.

The other (equally wrong) error I've seen is to confuse scale and importance -- which is the basis of the ridiculous argument "the universe is so much bigger than us, therefore we are insignificant and inconsequential, therefore we can't be some kind of special creation and so there is no God" (three non sequiturs for the price of one).

Mike

Andreas Moran

29-01-2008, 01:01 PM

The other (equally wrong) error I've seen is to confuse scale and importance -- which is the basis of the ridiculous argument "the universe is so much bigger than us, therefore we are insignificant and inconsequential, therefore we can't be some kind of special creation and so there is no God" (three non sequiturs for the price of one).

Mike

Exactly so!

Seda S.

30-01-2008, 12:56 PM

An answer to such kind of questions is to be found, IMHO, in Gen. 2:1-
'Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them'. The word 'host' ('tseba' in Hebrew) was translated into Greek, Latin, Armenian and perhaps into other ancient languages as 'ornament' (kosmos, ornatus, zard), and the Fathers of the Church understood all the stars of heaven, planets etc as being just 'ornaments' for this world. If so, they cannot have life as it is on this earth. One of the Armenian Fathers, St Grigor of Tathev (XV c.), says that there is only one world (not counting the 'world to come' or the 'world of the angels'), because if there were another world just like this one, it would be superfluous, while in God's creation there is nothing superfluous. If that another world were not like this one, but different, this would not be possible either; because our world is perfect and lacks nothing. So there is no need for another world.

Once a scientist from USA, Knel Turian (he lives in Armenia now) spoke by the radio about this topic. He was one of those scientists who once gathered all information about those UFOs and examined this phenomenon. If I'm not mistaken, he said, the book where all those things are gathered is called 'Blue book'. So this scientist said that that examination had shown that all those UFOs and aliens, though being physical or material (since they sometimes leave material marks after themselves, like burnt areas etc), were all the same from some spiritual space (he explained how it could happen and that the spiritual can take material forms). So he was sure that they were really the work of demons, especially because those phenomena usually bring the feeling of terror and fear to people.

Seda S.

30-01-2008, 03:55 PM

No need of this post any more.
Forgive me, Fr Raphael.

Fr Raphael Vereshack

30-01-2008, 04:31 PM

Dear Fr Raphael
If you didn't like the first part of my post which you have cut off, you could post an answer to that my post, rejecting what I had written there. But what has been done now is not honest at all.

Forgive me.

Dear Seda,

No it's alright. I was only adding to what you wrote by quoting the appropriate section. Not disagreeing with it.

Sorry if there's any misunderstanding. :)

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Seda S.

30-01-2008, 04:39 PM

No need of this post any more.
Forgive me, Fr Raphael.

Anthony

30-01-2008, 05:43 PM

Edited because now redundant

Nina

30-01-2008, 06:11 PM

There seems to be some mistake here (?). A post which the computer says is from Seda, signed by Fr Raphael. Gremlins?

No, there is no mistake.

Marie-Duquette

30-01-2008, 06:11 PM

There seems to be some mistake here (?). A post which the computer says is from Seda, signed by Fr Raphael. Gremlins?

Anthony,

Who are the gremlins?

As I read this thread, I noticed that Seda's post#75 was edited by Father Raphael. So, did he sign it by mistake, or intentionally? Since there was no signature on the original?

Who knows?

marie+duquette

p.s.

Let us be attentive!

Double negatives make a positive, don't they?

Anthony

30-01-2008, 06:37 PM

Edited because now redundant

Fr Raphael Vereshack

30-01-2008, 06:38 PM

Once a scientist from USA, Knel Turian (he lives in Armenia now) spoke by the radio about this topic. He was one of those scientists who once gathered all information about those UFOs and examined this phenomenon. If I'm not mistaken, he said, the book where all those things are gathered is called 'Blue book'. So this scientist said that that examination had shown that all those UFOs and aliens, though being physical or material (since they sometimes leave material marks after themselves, like burnt areas etc), were all the same from some spiritual space (he explained how it could happen and that the spiritual can take material forms). So he was sure that they were really the work of demons, especially because those phenomena usually bring the feeling of terror and fear to people.

From what I know Fr Seraphim Rose was the first Orthodox writer in English to come to the same conclusion about aliens. What he felt was that a fair amount of them were delusional or the result of misinterpreting the evidence. He also though felt that some experiences were genuine but originated from demonic spiritual sources. His basic idea was that through our lack of discernment & idle craving for supernatural experiences (something which he always related to passionate craving) we open ourselves to such false encounters. In his mind this was similar to the falls into spiritual delusion experienced in the past by those who had actively sought spiritual experiences.

The subject of UFOs & aliens isn't one which personally interests me very much. Anyway such things go in cycles and usually reflect a fad- so such 'sightings' were much more prevalent 20 years ago or so. Once though I saw a TV program on people who had experienced such encounters. This basically pointed to the correctness of Fr Seraphim's views. Some people seemed genuinely to have experienced something authentic. What was striking though was that these experiences were uniformly described as being malevolent. Absolutely none were of the ET or Close Encounters type of benign encounters.

In Christ- Fr Raphael
PS: From what I was just told in a PM in my last post I hit the Edit instead of the Reply button. Thus the confusion. Sorry- this had never happened before. I'll have to pay more attention next time.

Father David Moser

30-01-2008, 07:11 PM

PS: From what I was just told in a PM in my last post I hit the Edit instead of the Reply button. Thus the confusion. Sorry- this had never happened before. I'll have to pay more attention next time.

Please also note that Seda's original post has been restored in full so some of you who did not see it in its entirety may wish to go back and re-read it (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=57878&postcount=75).

Fr David Moser

Herman Blaydoe

30-01-2008, 08:07 PM

Such strange goings-on, must be the aliens! Or demons? How about leprecauns?

Andreas Moran

30-01-2008, 08:16 PM

How about leprecauns?

Now don't be mocking the little folk!

K. Sean Proudler

30-01-2008, 11:22 PM

I wonder whats the view of the Church about aliens. I would ask someone to tell me about this. Thanks.
Satan is always at work doing his best the bury truths such that he may continue to deceive. Thus he pushes a portion of people into having interests in such things as little green Aliens, and does so with deliberate reason.

These people are open minded, which can be a good thing. There are also people who are open minded but are specifically in search of truths, and so much so that the function of how to find truths becomes priority number one. Unfortunately, thanks to Satan being at work, those who are in search of truths become instantly thrown into the same category as those whom are interested in Aliens.

All this occurs because truth seekers are open minded, even though they chose to be this way simply to allow truth to enter the mind. Thus if the minds of those who are in search of truths do discover any new truths, their words are then assumed to come from La La land, and that's that, end of story.

Satan wins again. Truths are buried. From this I assume that the church does not favor any concern about aliens. But then again, I could be wrong, since Satan has not been defeated yet.

Herman Blaydoe

31-01-2008, 12:28 AM

From this I assume that the church does not favor any concern about aliens. But then again, I could be wrong, since Satan has not been defeated yet.

Actually, he has been defeated. Christ did that, didn't you get the memo? It is all in that book we have been going on about, some people refer to it as "The Bible".

Effie Ganatsios

31-01-2008, 10:45 AM

Leprechauns, elves, gnomes, goblins .... why is it that every country has it's own version of these mischievous little folk?

Could they have originated as little devils and then been changed through the years according to the different countries that have myths about them.

These little folk are called Kalikantzari in Greece.

"On Christmas Eve the "Kalikantzari" arrive. These are small and large gnome-like creatures who are said to come to earth for twelve nights and roam about doing all sorts of mischief... it is said that they are ugly and mischievous because the devil or evil spirit was not exorcised from them. These little fellows rove over the waters and settle in the glens near the rivers, roaming around the villages after midnight, teasing weary travellers and scaring the womenfolk, stealing food, and playing all sorts of harmless jokes. They also dirty the water supply and babies' clothes, which must not hang on the line after sun-down. Therefore, before they arrive the women go and cut olive branches from church property and with these, dipped in holy water, they sprinkle their homes and doors and then cover their water supply and jugs with them as a protection against the pranks of the "Kalikantzari". Should you meet one, you can scare it off by making the sign of the Cross three times, by showing it a red thread.

The "Kalikantzari" stay until the Eve of Epiphany Day..... all the houses are sprinkled from room to room with holy water by the priests, to clean them of any evil spirits....
....and so they leave this earth until the coming year"

Reading the above it is amazing that some practices here are still common. e.g. I was told never to leave laundry on the line during the night, and threads of red and white are entwined by mothers and worn by little children on their wrists every spring. Could these two practices be because of the above?

Effie Ganatsios

31-01-2008, 10:47 AM

Another version of the above :

"Kalikántzari Superstition
An old folk belief in Greece holds that mischievous goblins called kalikántzari appear during Dodecameron. The kalikantzari live beneath the surface of the earth and chop away at a large tree trunk, the foundation of the earth. With their chopping they attempt to destroy God's work. They almost succeed when they hear the noise created by the birth of Christ. They come to earth on December 25 to disrupt people's lives with pranks and tricks such as spilled milk, disappearing keys, and broken glass. It is common to blame mishaps this time of the year on the kalikántzari.

Fire, light, and holy water protect people from the kalikantzari.
On Christmas Eve some people in rural Greece light a fire to prevent them from coming down the chimney. This Christ log (skarkántzalos) burns until Epiphany. Sometimes large bonfires are built in the villages of Greece, and people carry a candle with them at night for protection. The little imps roam the earth until Epiphany when holy water cleans them away."

Seda S.

31-01-2008, 11:36 AM

FORGIVE ME,

FR RAPHAEL.

I have cleared away what I had written in the previous two posts. Forgive me again.

Seda S.

31-01-2008, 11:44 AM

(Deleted.
It was nonsense.)

K. Sean Proudler

01-02-2008, 12:17 AM

Actually, he has been defeated. Christ did that, didn't you get the memo? It is all in that book we have been going on about, some people refer to it as "The Bible".

I just got kicked in the butt for responding to this quote, which brings about a question.

How is " Aliens and beings from other planets (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=57960#post57960) " orientated around discussion of patristic / monastic teaching ?

I desperately need to know.

Robert Hegwood

01-02-2008, 11:26 PM

A "bulk" reply comment or two.

First, I must risk seeming being taken as a little to the odd side. This is because in my life I've seen 11 UFOs. In retrospect it is possible that at least a couple of them may have been mistaking other conventional aircraft. One might be a weird but very suspiciously timed rare atmospheric event...a couple I've forgotten the particulars and have only the memory of counting how many I've seen back when I did remember, but at least 4 are in the "hmmmmm...makes you think" category. The first two I saw was when was 7 or 8 years old at my babysitter's. They pointed out to me something happening in the sky...two objects high overhead (tracking roughly due n) being chased by two fighter jets from Patrick Air Force Base. The jets never had a chance. The UFOs toyed with them a little one heading ne and the other sw (more or less). First the one heading sw bolted away leaving its pursueor to trudge along behind it. And the other played a little more with its jet before dashing off in the other direction the same way. We could still clearly see both jets trying to give chase but the UFO's had each disappeared over their respective horizons. It all took less than a couple of minutes.

What they were or were not I'm in no position to say, I can only tell what I saw and that it seemed our guys were not happy to see them in our skies.

With regard to the little guys chopping at the roots of a giant tree trunk...that sounds very much like a variation on the Norse story of the World-Tree whose whose roots are gnawed by the evil dragon-being the Niddhog.

With regard to elves and the wee folk in general I once came across an old (I think german) story of a priest's son (so it must be old) who in his daily wanderings saw an elf sitting on the waters of a stream singing some little ditty. The priest's son reduced the poor elf to tears by telling him he was not and could not be baptized and go to heaven. When he told his father the priest was upset with his son and scolded him about judging God's creatures and destroying their hope for his own amusement...or something like that.

Effie Ganatsios

04-02-2008, 09:36 AM

" Of course, if you read Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, you will know about all the deceptions which the demons perpetrate: the demons "pray" for you, the demons make miracles, they produce the most wonderful phenomena, they bring people to church, they do anything you want, as long as they keep you in this deception. And when the time comes, they will suddenly pull their tricks on you. So these people, who have been converted to some kind of Christianity by these so-called outer-space beings, are waiting for the next time they will come; and the next time their message may have to do with Christ coming to earth again soon, or something of the sort. It's obvious that this is all the work of demons. That is, where it's real. Sometimes it's just imagination, but when it's real this kind of thing obviously comes form demons.

This is very elementary. If you read any text of the early Fathers, any of the early Lives of Saints or the Lausiac History, you find many cases where beings suddenly appear. Nowadays they appear in spaceships because that's how the demons have adapted themselves to the people of the times; but if you understand how spiritual deception works and what kind of wiles the devil has, then you have no problems in understanding what's going on with these flying saucers. And yet this person who writes the UFO column is an absolutely strict Fundamentalist Christian. He is looking, actually for new revelations to come from beings from outer space. "

From http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/orthodox/orthodox_advices_ufo.htm

Andreas Moran

04-02-2008, 01:49 PM

There are no aliens.

Michael Stickles

04-02-2008, 08:42 PM

How is " Aliens and beings from other planets (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=57960#post57960) " orientated around discussion of patristic / monastic teaching ?

I desperately need to know.

Remember that the Terms of Use (http://www.monachos.net/forum/faq.php?faq=mb_tos#faq_tos_part1) do not limit us to only discussing patristic / monastic teachings. Rather:

Issues addressed in the Community should be focused on examining a given theme from the broad realm of patristic, monastic, ecclesiastic and liturgical perspectives, and not simply on expressing one’s own opinions or commenting on another’s.

Some of the ways in which this has been done in this thread are:

(1) Discussing Fr Seraphim Rose's equating of aliens to demons, and how that relates to other views (patristic or otherwise) and to people's experiences;
(2) Considering the compatibility (or lack thereof) of Orthodox theology and belief in aliens;
(3) Pondering a proper Orthodox response were one to be confronted with an apparently alien being.

That's just off the top of my head; there may have been others. Yes, at times this focus seems to get lost, but someone eventually drags the discussion back to a proper focus (example: Effie's recent post).

In Christ,
Mike

Nicolaj

04-02-2008, 11:00 PM

I have seen a lot of weird things in my life, but no such thing called alien.

But I like the things Father Seraphim wrote on the topic.

In Christ, Nicolaj

Andreas Moran

05-02-2008, 12:21 AM

There are no aliens.

Herman Blaydoe

05-02-2008, 02:49 PM

There are no aliens.

yes, you have made this quite clear, repeatedly. I am glad this is settled for you. It is not so for everyone and I don't see how this dogmatic repetition contributes anything meaningful at this point.

Andreas Moran

06-02-2008, 09:33 AM

C'mon, Herman - it's just a bit humorous! Besides, there are no aliens for all the reasons I and others have stated. I really do not see how even the possibility of aliens can be accommodated in all that has been revealed to us by God and so in our faith which is founded on God's revelation to us.

Paul Cowan

07-02-2008, 04:33 AM

As I clicked on the little green arrow, I was musing to myself that if Andreas said it again, i would also pick up the mantra. :)

Q: What do little green men, men in black and orange bananas have in common.

A: None of them exist.

Robert Hegwood

07-02-2008, 06:40 AM

Red bananas exist...why not orange ones?

Andreas Moran

07-02-2008, 09:34 AM

As I clicked on the little green arrow

Little green arrow? What little green arrow? I didn't know little green arrows existed!!!

Herman Blaydoe

07-02-2008, 01:46 PM

Little green arrow? What little green arrow? I didn't know little green arrows existed!!!

Then, for you at least, it doesn't.

Michael Stickles

07-02-2008, 03:21 PM

Besides, there are no aliens for all the reasons I and others have stated.

Just don't try to convince folks in the American Southwest of that. They're always complaining about aliens, primarily the "undocumented" ones.

Andreas Moran

07-02-2008, 03:21 PM

Herman Blaydoe Quotation:
Originally Posted by Andreas Moran
Little green arrow? What little green arrow? I didn't know little green arrows existed!!!

Then, for you at least, it doesn't.

Ah, but this is different. First, it is reasonable to accept the word of someone in relation to something of no consequence. Secondly, this is capable of verification. Thirdly, it doesn't conflict with the Orthodox faith.

Andreas Moran

07-02-2008, 03:27 PM

Just don't try to convince folks in the American Southwest of that. They're always complaining about aliens, primarily the "undocumented" ones.

Years ago, a friend of mine took a Greyhound bus tour of the United States. At some state border in the West, a police officer (helmet, sunglasses, gun and many other accoutrements) swaggered up to my friend and drawled, 'Are you an alien?' My friend replied, 'certainly not - I'm British!'

RichardWorthington

08-02-2008, 10:39 PM

Nina

08-02-2008, 10:48 PM

In the Jordanville prayer book there is a prayer somewhere where we ask to be delivered from 'invasion of aliens' ...

... therefore aliens must exist!

"The prayer book says it, I believe it, that settles it!"

Richard :)

Richard, you must look at this too:

"I exhort you therefore - no, not I , but the love of Jesus Christ: partake of Christian food exclusively; abstain from plant of alien growth, that is, heresy. Heretics weave Jesus Christ into their web - to win our confidence, just like persons who administer a deadly drug mixed with honeyed wine, which the unsuspecting gladly take - and with baneful relish they swallow death!"

St. Ignatius of Antioch

Andreas Moran

08-02-2008, 11:20 PM

Olga

09-02-2008, 03:32 AM

Effie Ganatsios

09-02-2008, 09:45 AM

To this day, Greeks, especially from northern provinces, refer to people who have settled into these regions (even as youths) as fertoi (m. sing. fertos, f. sing. ferti), meaning "brought in" or "fetched".

Olga, I don't understand your meaning. Are you referring to the refugees who came to Greece in 1924 during the population exchange with the Ottoman Empire?

Effie

Effie Ganatsios

09-02-2008, 10:05 AM

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/alien_abduct.aspx
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/occult_abc_koch.htm#_Toc78601753
The above are worth reading.

The following is from http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/angels_e2.htm

"To put into practice these words of Christ and St. Paul in discriminating between real angels and demons masquerading as angels is difficult in the face of human frailty, our sinfulness, our self-willed delusion, and the thousands of years of experience of the enemy of man and God. Remember that the deluded monks described above had dedicated their very lives to Christ. The Holy Fathers of the Church, in their great love for us, tell us to pray, to seek humility, and to seek the guidance of a spiritual Father. They clearly tell us not to seek visions of angels and to be very questioning and skeptical when we do receive such visions. They tell us that if we have the slightest doubt about a vision, to say, in fact, "I do not know," and to put it aside or simply to reject it. They tell us that God will overcome our actions if God is the source and that the angels will rejoice at our humility and sobriety. (See the indices of The Philokalia, vols. I, III, and IV of the English edition, for some pertinent references.) What the Holy Fathers of the Church tell us is very different from what has been written by the authors of today's popular books.

The devil is a liar and a sower of confusion, and to accomplish his ends, he and his demons will lie to us not only by their words but also by masquerading as something they are not. Any otherwordly phenomena that are sources of confusion and distraction (so-called alien abductions being a modern example) might be such a masquerade."

Olga

09-02-2008, 10:12 AM

Olga, I don't understand your meaning. Are you referring to the refugees who came to Greece in 1924 during the population exchange with the Ottoman Empire?

Effie

Fertos applies to anyone who was not born in that town or village, but who settles there for whatever reason, be it for work, or marriage (the usual custom was that the bride would move from her place of birth and settle in her husband's town or village, rarely the other way around), or whatever other reason. Refugees, particularly those from Asia Minor, were generally called prosphyghes rather than fertoi.

Effie Ganatsios

09-02-2008, 12:00 PM

Thanks Olga. I know the word prosphiges - pros figi - on the run, is the correct word for refugees. I hadn't heard the other word and wondered if it had something to do with aliens.

The original inhabitants of our city are now only about 10% because of the huge influx of people from the surrounding countryside. I have never heard this word though.

The old families (mine included) have created a new tradition - we get together once a year, arrange a special liturgy at the church of our choice, and then have a get together with food and wine. In this way, our younger people get to know their relatives - nowadays, even some second cousins don't know each other.

Thanks for explaining.

Effie

Nina

09-02-2008, 08:06 PM

The old families (mine included) have created a new tradition - we get together once a year, arrange a special liturgy at the church of our choice, and then have a get together with food and wine. In this way, our younger people get to know their relatives - nowadays, even some second cousins don't know each other.

Effie

:D You reminded me of the cousins of my mom who always said, 'we must get together so our children know that they are cousins'.

Fertos applies to anyone who was not born in that town or village, but who settles there for whatever reason, be it for work, or marriage (the usual custom was that the bride would move from her place of birth and settle in her husband's town or village, rarely the other way around),

:D Actually when that rarely happened, they made fun of the husband since he as the man of the house could not go and follow the bride as a leader.

But I have no idea what these things have to do with aliens.

Effie Ganatsios

11-02-2008, 11:32 AM

:D You reminded me of the cousins of my mom who always said, 'we must get together so our children know that they are cousins'.

:D Actually when that rarely happened, they made fun of the husband since he as the man of the house could not go and follow the bride as a leader.

But I have no idea what these things have to do with aliens.

Well, from outer space aliens we are now speaking of aliens from other countries or other districts. I have read of some islands in America on the north east coast where people who have lived there for 40-50 years are still considered strangers. Same here. A man who has come from another region and lives in his wife's family house is called a speitogambros - a house groom (from bride and groom nothing to do with the grooms who look after horses).

The refugees from Pontos are still considered strangers (after approx. 80 years) although our children are now intermarrying which is a good thing.

We are strange creatures. We cannot even accept our own kind but we can accept the idea that alien creatures are flying over the earth and gathering information about us or whatever else they are doing.

M.C. Steenberg

11-02-2008, 11:34 AM

Dear friends,

Let us not let the topic of this thread wander into what is, despite the common term, an entirely different discussion (i.e. of foreign aliens). The topic of this thread is quite directly 'Aliens and beings from other planets'.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Nina

12-02-2008, 01:50 AM

We are strange creatures. We cannot even accept our own kind but we can accept the idea that alien creatures are flying over the earth and gathering information about us.

If aliens and beings from other planets do exist and are gathering info about us than that must place them in the same rank with anti-Christ. Since that one will do the same.

Antonios

12-02-2008, 10:34 AM

Nina

13-02-2008, 01:19 AM

Victor Mihailoff

26-02-2008, 07:23 AM

I wonder whats the view of the Church about aliens. I would ask someone to tell me about this. Thanks.
In Fr. Seraphim Rose's book: "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" there is a whole chapter, VI, devoted to UFOs, space ship and alien sightings. It is extremely interesting and informative but briefly, Fr. Seraphim shows that they are modern demonic apparitions, replacing the ghosts and goblins of yesteryear.

Alec Lowly

27-02-2008, 03:10 AM

In Fr. Seraphim Rose's book: "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" there is a whole chapter, VI, devoted to UFOs, space ship and alien sightings. It is extremely interesting and informative but briefly, Fr. Seraphim shows that they are modern demonic apparitions, replacing the ghosts and goblins of yesteryear.

Yes, that is Father Seraphim's ~opinion~ of the phenomena ...

D. Haydock

02-03-2008, 05:24 PM

Could this be about aliens?

"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."

Owen Jones

02-03-2008, 06:50 PM

How is the earth exploited? I'm afraid I don't get that one.

Andreas Moran

02-03-2008, 07:30 PM

Owen Jones How is the earth exploited? I'm afraid I don't get that one.

I take it to mean that rather than being good stewards of the earth's resources, the 'developed' world plunders them for greed.

Could this be about aliens?

"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."

No, it couldn't. This passage is from John 10:16. As Orthodox, we do not take scraps of scripture in isolation but see them in context. The Jews believed they were the chosen people but even in the OT, it was occasionally said that God is for all. Do we not sing at vespers the song of Simeon which includes the words, 'a light to lighten the Gentiles and the glory of Thy people Israel'? In so saying, Simeon must have been referring to Isaiah 42:6 and Isaiah 49;6. Christ says His first mission is to the Jews: 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel' (Matthew 10:5,6 and c.f. 15:24). But Christ widened His call: He preached in Samaria, lauded the Roman centurion, and declared that He was 'the light of the world' (John 8:12). Thus, the 'other sheep' are the Gentiles who accept Christ because they hear His voice.

Alec Lowly

02-03-2008, 10:21 PM

Could this be about aliens?

"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."

Possibly. And the Mormons say it's about the Jews whom their scriptures claim to have settled in the Western hemisphere, where the risen Christ came to evangelize them.

The safest bet, I think, is that the Lord was referring to you and me. In other words, to all believers in the future of the Church ...

Owen Jones

03-03-2008, 02:19 AM

By extracting resources from the earth in order for people to live in something better than subsistence conditions is simply exploiting the resources that are there for man's betterment, as God intended and as He commanded that we should do. It's the good kind of exploitation. The planet doesn't "suffer" due to this. People suffer terribly when the earth's resources are not sufficiently exploited, and it is inhumane and anti-theological to say that producing wealth is bad or evil, when at least 1/3 of the earth's population is still living at barely a subsistence level, and the only way for them to progress materially is for those people with the capital and the knowhow are permitted to succeed in their economic endeavors. It benefits everyone.

The idea that developed nations are plundering the world's resources for greed -- well, sure, greed is one motivation for producing things, but it is by no means the only motivation. Many people want to be successful so that they can provide an education and opportunities for their children, and many people are philanthropic with their resources. The idea that greed is the only motivation behind making money is much too simplistic. And this view of economics is based on the Marxist canard that it is always a zero sum game, and that the only way that some people can get wealth is by exploiting people who have none, or have no political power. The truth is that wealth begets wealth, when people are allowed the freedom to keep the wealth they create, and save it and invest it, and not have it stolen by greedy governments. China was an incredibly poor country 20 years ago until they recognized their economic failures and now it is producing wealth at an unprecedented level, and the fact that there are still hundreds of millions of poor peasants is the result of totalitarian political policies rather than the fault of the people who are becoming successful. India has done the same thing and in both countries you see a huge increase in middle class prosperity, which is a good thing. Wealth generation does not imply plundering. This is what tyrants like Hitler and Stalin and Saddam Hussein did. They plundered existing wealth, and in so doing they eliminated wealth creation and turned everyone into poverty stricken slaves of the state.

Sorry, I realize this is not the topic of this thread.

Andreas Moran

03-03-2008, 02:55 AM

A very American view, if I may say so. American laissez faire capitalism produces poverty also. My brother, on visits to his son who lives in Atlanta, has been shocked by what he has seen of poverty in America.

This is what tyrants like Hitler and Stalin and Saddam Hussein did. They plundered existing wealth, and in so doing they eliminated wealth creation and turned everyone into poverty stricken slaves of the state.

This is too simplistic and also inaccurate. I would not for one moment seek to suggest that the regimes of Hitler and Stalin were other than demonic, and communism certainly did try to create a class of citizens with a slavish mentality. But many Soviet citizens were not poverty stricken. My wife's parents, uncles and aunts and grandparents lived in very comfortable circumstances (except during the war). Equally, Germans in the 1930's were not poverty stricken.

Yes, we are way off topic!

Owen Jones

03-03-2008, 03:56 AM

Well, then perhaps there ought to be a topic on Christian economics.

I always love to hear stories about Europeans who come to the U.S. and are shocked to find poverty, ignoring it in their own back yards. Look at the Turkish ghettos in Germany some day. The idea that America has a laissez faire economy is, of course, quite off the mark. Welfare dependency in America is the leading cause of poverty. American governments spend about $2 trillion per year in so-called anti-poverty programs. That's TRILLION. Hardly laissez faire capitalism. We could probably do with a dose of laissez faire capitalism since multi-generational welfare dependency in the U.S. is a disaster.

By the way, the top 5% of the income earners in the U.S. pay 70% of the personal income taxes, hardly a laissez faire taxation system. Our corporate taxes are the highest in the world, higher than in Europe. We give free schooling and medical care to tens of millions of illegal immigrants. Hardly a heartless, brutal, laissez faire, survival of the fittest attitude.

The only truly Christian economic system is a free one. What people do with their freedom, as we all know, is often to abuse it. But to rob people of their freedom, and command them at gunpoint to be virtuous, is immoral, and in violation of the commandments of God. It is a violation of the commandment against covetousness, when an envious political majority uses the power of compulsion through government to rob and steal from those who are more productive. And I find it astounding that, in the year of our Lord 2008, some people can still be so ignorant about Marxist economics, because some people managed to live comfortably (except that everyone lived in fear of a late night knock on the door). I would rather be dirt poor that fear a knock on the door at night from the secret police. That people were better off in Germany in the 1930's than in the 1920's convinced many people throughout the world that Fascism was the wave of the future, and that freedom had seen its end. Of course, while Hitler was managing the industrial economy (largely by militarization and huge make work projects), he was also robbing Jews of their wealth and sending them to concentration camps. Whenever we wring our hands about the disparities of wealth in the world, and become filled with righteousness indignation about it, only death, misery and destruction can follow. Best thing to do about poverty is to invest what we earn in productive enterprises with a very long term strategy to build wealth, and to tithe to Church charities that help the poorest of the poor in dire circumstances, without binding them to a life of dependency. Probably the greatest cause of poverty in America is the cultural disaster known as our public education system, which produces a 50% dropout rate in many school districts, produces spiritually alienated kids by the age of ten who turn to sex and drugs, and is arrogant and totalitarian in nature, which denies that parents should have any control over the education of their children.

If every high school dropout in America would get a job, and take everything they would otherwise spend on booze, drugs and cigarettes, and invest in on a weekly basis in the stock market, they would retire at 65 as millionaires.

Owen Jones

03-03-2008, 04:22 AM

A working couple in the U.S., who starts investing in the stock market at age 18 an amount of $10/day -- a couple of packs of cigarettes and a couple of beers -- would retire at age 63 with $2 million. Obviously poverty in Bangladesh is a different problem entirely. But why is America rich and Bangladesh poor? It is for historical/cultural/religious reasons and doesn't have anything to do with Bangladesh's resources being plundered by "capitalists." It's a problem with a lack of "human capital."

Antonios

03-03-2008, 04:45 AM

The idea that America has a laissez faire economy is, of course, quite off the mark.

I would second that. America is now under a corporate controlled government where the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and the middle class is disappearing. Laissez faire style politics, where free markets were allowed to work, brought more economic prosperity to the most amount of people this world has ever known.

And there are no such things as aliens. (Just trying to keep on topic!)

Nina

03-03-2008, 05:08 AM

Look at the Turkish ghettos in Germany some day.

By the way I have a problem with this comment because is wrong. I have been to Germany a lot and I have not seen Turkish ghettos. I have seen neighborhoods where Turkish people live. And I do not even want to start comparing.

Effie Ganatsios

03-03-2008, 09:07 AM

I have no real opinion if there is alien life forms. If there aren't, then glory to God! If there are, then God the Highest!

Sadly, we exploit the world and our fellow man and we have become aliens to ourselves, to our true nature. If ever life is found outside of earth, I'm sad to think we would probably exploit it as well.

I agree Antonios. The earth's resources are being exploited , the earth has been polluted. There are countries in which the people think they are entitled to waste material goods because they think they are smarter, richer, and more powerful. These countries are also very sly in that they prefer to lay waste to other "inferior" countries where their actions will not be so apparent. Of course corrupt politicians in these poor countries help them by being bribed. Claiming that this is not so and that the poor countries are basically to blame for their situation is just pulling the wool over our eyes.We are like cannibals. Consuming human lives so that we can live "the way God meant us to live". Hypocrisy is alive and well, unfortunately.

The fact that this method of looting the natural resources of other countries not as " technically advanced" as our own has been in existence for centuries does not make it right. Empires rise and fall, corruption and arrogance are always the cause of their fall.

What can we as Christians do? We can do whatever we can on a personal level not to waste the earth's resources. Stewardship of the earth's resources is one of our duties.

" Speaking for Greek Orthodoxy internationally, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I declared, "For humans to cause species to become extinct... to degrade the integrity of Earth by causing changes in its climate, by stripping the Earth of its natural forests...to contaminate the Earth's waters, land, air and life with poisonous substances - these are sins."

Andreas Moran

03-03-2008, 10:42 AM

According to my nephew (who is a factory manager), people in the US live in fear not of the knock on the door in the night but of arriving at work one morning to be told, 'clear your desk and go - you're finished'. (He being British and his wife Irish, they have wisely taken out British and Irish citizenship for their children so they can get out of the US if my nephew loses his job.)

A thread on Christian economics would certainly be lively!

There are no aliens.

Owen Jones

03-03-2008, 02:45 PM

Living in fear of being fired is a good incentive to show up to work on time and sober, and working hard. When you remove any fear of being fired, you destroy a person's soul at a certain level. He becomes a parasite.

As for the Patriarch, here is one area where, quite frankly, he does not know what he is talking about. Especially when it comes to climate change. And it is just bad theology.

Of course the "earth's" resources are being exploited. That's a good thing. It puts food on the table, allows for people to live with a roof over their heads. In any case, it doesn't belong to the earth. The earth doesn't own its resources. The earth is an inanimate object. Unless you believe in animism, and the earth as a divine entity.

As for pollution, it has good and bad aspects. Very wealthy nations have the ability to spend hundreds of billions on pollution controls. But poor nations do not have that luxury, and to require them to do so is to consign their people to extreme poverty. There are worse things than pollution. To make war on pollution is also to make war on the poor -- to simply kill them in large numbers. Hardly a Christian attitude. Which is why China and India will never go along with the Kyoto Treaty. They view this as Western arrogance.

As for plundering, the most obvious case study is petroleum. Without the technical expertise of advanced western societies, the countries that contain petroleum deposits would never have derived any revenue from the oil in the first place. Then they pursue short sighted policies by stealing the assets of the oil companies that developed the resource, and then they squander their wealth, which is hardly the fault of western societies. Yes, there have been nations that have plundered other societies through imperialism, but they always pay a price. Spain suffered serious inflation and a currency collapse as a result of plundering Inca gold. Britain basically went bankrupt supporting its empire. Soviet Russia is the classic case of an empire that went bankrupt, supporting its client states in Eastern Europe and Cuba.

Most countries that were socialist 20 years ago have abandoned it and are in the process of dismantling it, for good reason. Socialism is morally wrong because it is based on compulsion, and it doesn't work. Socialist countries all have a problem even keeping people fed. I don't know exactly what a Christian economics is or should be, but a primary concern ought to be freedom, as opposed to economic slavery. BTW, slavery in America was a horribly uneconomic system, and a few slaveholders who paid wages with the idea of the slave being able to buy his freedom over time, were far more productive.

To be sure, Christianity has an ambivalence towards wealth and wealth creation. There is nothing evil about it per se. But the LOVE of money distracts people from the one thing needful, which is why VOLUNTARY poverty is one of traditional Christianity's supreme virtues. It is quite another thing to impose poverty on people by the state, through confiscatory taxation, and to steal from some in order to give to others who are deemed more needy.

As for poverty in America, there is hardly any such thing as poverty anymore, in the traditional sense. There are sufficient benefit programs, including free health care, that no one in America is really and truly poor anymore, unless they are mentally ill, which is often the result of drug abuse. What a casual observer sees in America is not catastrophic poverty of the type we had in many states and regions 50 years ago. What is more evident is spiritual poverty, in many cases caused by government intrusion in families, which subsidizes broken families, and encourages women to have babies out of wedlock, and a catastrophic education system that fails to inspire kids and teach them something they can believe in, along with a complete failure to teach work ethics, fails to teach students about the basic economic and financial strategies that allow people to become self-reliant economically. This is due to the fact the people who devise our education strategies are alienated people who despise their own country.

Unfortunately, the very existence of poor people in America is supposed to mean that instead of spending $2 trillion per year on fighting poverty, we ought to spend 10% or 20% or 30% MORE every yet, despite the evidence that there are many negative effects.

A big debate in America today is globalism and competitiveness and the loss of high-paying manufacturing jobs. What we are going to be forced to do is cut back on the welfare state, cut taxes dramatically, privatize social security and medicare, in order to stay competitive economically. It will be painful but the alternative is for America to become poorer and poorer in the aggregate.

By the way, illiterate immigrants come to America every year illegally in order to find work and improve themselves and their families. Because of the welfare state, it is extremely difficult to find domestic laborers to do a lot of jobs, even high paying ones in things like home construction. I suppose everyone has his price, if you tell a person that he is going to be taken care of by the state, at some price level he is going to take you up on your offer.

Andreas Moran

04-03-2008, 01:12 AM

I will exercise restraint, Owen, and just say that I think many here will not agree with your views. But I cannot let your opening shot go without comment.

Living in fear of being fired is a good incentive to show up to work on time and sober, and working hard. When you remove any fear of being fired, you destroy a person's soul at a certain level. He becomes a parasite.

This is profoundly insulting to the employee who always showed up on time, was always sober, worked hard - and still got sacked just because his name was on a list. In 1991, I was made redundant. My firm took away my livelihood and destroyed my career, and it was through no fault of mine. I was told, 'it's nothing you've done wrong - it's nothing personal. We just need to downsize a bit'. After a year of trying to find another job, I was told that, being aged 45, I was on the scrap heap, and I would never work in my profession again. That, Owen, is what could be soul-destroying. At no stage in all this and after did I become or feel like a parasite. For ten years, the only work I could get was part-time teaching at the university where I lived, earning a small fraction of the salary I had before. The breadwinner was my first wife. When she died, I had to move because I couldn't afford to stay in my home where we had lived for fifteen years. By God's grace and the help of St Nicholas, I got my present post.

There are no aliens.

Herman Blaydoe

04-03-2008, 02:12 AM

There are no aliens

Well, actually there is, but I'm only visiting.

Kypreos

04-03-2008, 03:27 AM

By the way, the top 5% of the income earners in the U.S. pay 70% of the personal income taxes

That may be true but only because the richest 1% hold one third of the total wealth in the economy. The wealthy are not taxed enough in this nation. We have a regressive tax system. Which translates into the those with a smaller income end up paying a larger percentage of their income to taxes.

Probably the greatest cause of poverty in America is the cultural disaster known as our public education system, which produces a 50% dropout rate in many school districts, produces spiritually alienated kids by the age of ten who turn to sex and drugs, and is arrogant and totalitarian in nature, which denies that parents should have any control over the education of their children.

Our schools systems are funded through property taxes. Wealthier neighborhoods pay more in property taxes, therefore their students get a better education...get into better colleges...get better jobs...etc. Segregation has many faces in this nation.

If every high school dropout in America would get a job, and take everything they would otherwise spend on booze, drugs and cigarettes, and invest in on a weekly basis in the stock market, they would retire at 65 as millionaires.

Welfare dependency in America is the leading cause of poverty.

Then lets get rid of welfare so we can all become millionaires, that should work - right?

Owen Jones

04-03-2008, 04:14 AM

To lose one's job because of layoffs can and should be soul edifying for the Christian, not soul destroying. Yes, it tends to undermine one's confidence and one's manhood, but we should never have any expectations about tomorrow. We should have no trust in men or horses but trust God only. Just when we get a little too comfortable, too complacent, is exactly when we are shocked by some unforseen event. What are we to do? Wring our hands? Blame God? Blame evil employers? It doesn't matter what the issue is. It doesn't have to be anything related to economics. I have known mothers who have lost children to illness, or had children murdered. We don't wake up in the morning thinking these things are going to happen. But we have to be spiritually prepared at all times and not live in the expectation that life should be painless.

Freedom is difficult for most people to bear. Freedom is painful. Most people do not want freedom. We want God to just tell us what to do without being so indirect about it. We want the state to be a God substitute and save us. We want to be taken care of. Too many of us see freedom as a burden and curse, not a blessing. This is a spiritual handicap, not a virtue.

But just to set the record straight on one economic, social matter, the highest per capita expenditure on public schools in America is in the District of Columbia, over $10,000 per year per student. It's a disaster. Many, many private religious schools do a much better job of educating kids for much, much less, and these are not priveleged children by any means; not to mention the millions of kids now being home schooled. Our education problems have virtually nothing whatsoever to do with how much money is spent per pupil. It has everything to do with the nihilism that permeates education theory. If you intentionally train 5 year olds to be nihilists, that is exactly what you will get, and that is exactly what we are getting.

It is also simply untrue that those with smaller income end up paying a larger percentage of their income in taxes, depending on what cut off you are using. The middle class is in a tax squeeze. But approx. 50 million Amercans pay no income taxes, only an 8% payroll tax. Most people in the 10% bracket get everything back in their refund check. The highest bracket is just under 40%.

But the underlying problem is that it is not the duty or right of the state to equalize incomes through coercion. And it is wrong for Christians to wring their hands and bemoan economic inequality and demand that the state intervene in this matter. It is quite irresponsible and immoral. There is no virtue whatsoever in pointing a gun at someone and telling him to fork over his wealth because there are people who are needy that we are going to hand it over to. And the practical problem is that when you do that, people take their wealth and shelter it, or they move offshore to someplace where the government won't steal it. So the higher you raise the taxes on the wealthy, the poorer the nation becomes. Back when taxes in the U.S. were 90% on upper incomes, do you think that the wealthy actually invested it productively, in new business, to hire new workers? The bottom line is that we should not resent people who have more than we have, and we should not covet their wealth and property, and we should not deify the state in order to make us feel better.

Paul Cowan

04-03-2008, 05:21 AM

This story (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/802372/posts) has been around the block a few times, but has hints of truth.

Dinner & Taxes
humourous email | unknown

Posted on 12/06/2002 9:07:35 PM PST by BOBWADE

I was having lunch with one of my favorite clients last week and the conversation turned to the government's recent round of tax cuts.

'"I'm opposed to those tax cuts," the retired college instructor declared, "because they benefit the rich. The rich get much more money back than ordinary taxpayers like you and me and that's not fair.'"

"But the rich pay more in the first place," I argued, "so it stands to reason that they'd get more money back."

I could tell that my friend was unimpressed by this meager argument. So I said to him, "let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand."

"Suppose that every day 10 men go to a restaurant for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If it was paid the way we pay our taxes, the first four men would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1; the sixth would pay $3; the seventh $7; the eighth $12; the ninth $18. The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59."

The 10 men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." Now dinner for the 10 only costs $80. The first four are unaffected. They still eat for free. Can you figure out how to divvy up the $20 savings among the remaining six so that everyone gets his fair share? The men realize that $20 divided by 6 is $3.33, but if they subtract that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being paid to eat their meal.

The restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same percentage, being sure to give each a break, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so now the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of $59.

Outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," complained the sixth man, pointing to the tenth, "and he got $7!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!"

"That's true," shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor."

Then, the nine men surrounded the tenth man (the richest one, paying the most) and beat him up. The next night the richest man didn't show up for dinner, so now the nine men sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They were $52 short!

"And that, boys, girls and college instructors, is how America's tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table any more. There are lots of good restaurants in Switzerland and the Caribbean."

So when are we starting that christian economics thread? Maybe there are aliens messing with our economy?

Andreas Moran

04-03-2008, 11:16 AM

I never imagined that I would see such hardness of heart expressed by any Christian as has been expressed here very recently.

Herman Blaydoe

04-03-2008, 01:35 PM

I never imagined that I would see such hardness of heart expressed by any Christian as has been expressed here very recently.

What is harder? To say help the poor or to say tax the rich?

I was forced out of my job a couple of times as well, denied a career. It is difficult but you make the best of it and move on. Hard times are often blessings in disquise, that which makes us struggle makes us stronger. All things work for good for those who follow the Lord. And each of us is expected to do what we can to help others, which should be more than simply saying "tax that guy over there, he makes more than I do." If that is a hard heart, then I guess I have one. Lord have mercy.

O Bother!
Herman the Pooh

Andreas Moran

04-03-2008, 02:27 PM

What you say, Herman, is right. We are to (try) to have the correct spiritual attitude to sufferings. That is one thing. I would hope, though, that Christians would display charity, sensitivity and fellow feeling towards those who suffer. That is another thing. The rich man would have had no better fate for offering Lazarus a diatribe on right-wing economics. I see nothing wrong in a state based historically upon Christianity reflecting Christian virtues at the level of the state rather than letting the law of the jungle hold sway. As for the businessmen of the world, they should read the epistle of James, chapter five, and the Book of Revelation, chapter eighteen.

Nina

04-03-2008, 03:24 PM

Well... some precious words in this very forum of the late Father Averky come to mind. There is much insensitiveness in the hearts of people and I do not know how will we dare ask for mercy from God! Remember, Andreas' wife was the breadwinner and suffered from cancer at the same time when Andreas could not find a job as he says. I have met atheists who were much more sensitive if told this story.

Andreas Moran

04-03-2008, 03:36 PM

Thank you, Nina. It is not that one who suffers is seeking the consolation of people but rather one hopes that, for the benefit of their souls as you suggest, Christians show to people who suffer those qualities which they should exhibit.

Owen Jones

04-03-2008, 04:36 PM

I appreciate the dinner party story, but if someone who is wedded to a particular ideology reads it, he is not likely to be swayed by the moral logic of it. And this is the crux of the problem. Ideology is supplanting a true vision of Christian charity.

I think it would be good if every parish had a contingency fund to help parishioners who are in dire need, through no fault of their own. It is one thing to go broke because you have made bad investment choices, but what about financial loss due to illness? Or bad economic times? The fact is that our Orthodox parishes are shameful in this matter, and for us to advocate that the tax payers should come up with the cash to pay us when we are in need is just as shameful. We should be prepared to take care of our own, but imagine if I went to my parish council and advocated this. This is not to say that stuff like that never gets done in the parish anonymously. But in response to people who argue that the state should take over the job of charity I would ask, where are we? We have not earned the right to moralize and lecture others on the subject, as far as I can tell. When we turn over the responsibility of charity to the state, what else are we turning over to the state? We are essentially admitting that God is some kind of bush league pinch hitter who is pretty much useless when it comes to helping people in dire need, and therefore we need to deify the state. This is in violation of the first commandment. It is a violation of the commandment against covetousness. And the arguments used to enhance the power of the state usually involves a whole lot of bearing of false witness. The whole Christian socialist movement it seems to me is the death knell for Christianity. It is an admission that the world matters more than heaven, that the Church cannot be trusted to help the poor and needy, that material things matter more than spiritual things, that corrupting people and turning them into slaves of the state is permitted because it is more important to have "free" health care.
All of this is to satisfy an ideological impulse which says that inequalities must be eradicated, and that the only power or force that can do that is the state. It is an ideology of resentment against the reality of injustice. It is an ideology of power in that we mistakenly believe that injustice can and should be eliminated, by giving more power to the state. The advocates of enhanced state power completely avoid all of the deleterious effects of granting the state more power, because it serves an ideology and only the ideology matters.

At root, the ideologue suffers an internal spiritual problem. He is angry and resentful over the omnipresent fact of injustice in the world. And so he surrenders to the devil's temptation to acquire holy power to rule the world and make it a better place, through his proxies in government. Instead of actually helping people face to face, he wants to force others to do it for him, so that he can take personal pride in being more moral and more caring than others. He lives in an abstract, theoretical world, while chastising others for being uncaring.

The great challenge of our time is to recognize the problems associated with the deification of the state, with the Church relegated to minor, trivial details.

Andreas Moran

04-03-2008, 05:10 PM

I grieve for you, Owen, I really do.

Ideology is supplanting a true vision of Christian charity.

This is true. Your American business ideology blinds you to a true vision of Christian charity.
May God forgive you.

M.C. Steenberg

04-03-2008, 05:18 PM

Dear all,

Could I please ask everyone to be attentive to the recent call for focus across the forum. This is a thread on the topic of 'Aliens and beings from other planets'. Discussion of other topics -- such as recent posts, which have absolutely nothing to do with this subject -- are not germane to the thread.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Owen Jones

04-03-2008, 05:28 PM

How does one start a new thread?

Fr Raphael Vereshack

04-03-2008, 05:39 PM

Owen Jones

04-03-2008, 05:40 PM

It always strikes me as odd to say that there are winners and losers spiritually, i.e., some will go to heaven and some will go to hell, and that we are the winners because we possess the true faith, with little care and concern evidenced for the losers in this struggle, but we recoil at the notion that there are winners and losers in matters material, and will go to any lengths to eliminate any evidence that there are winners and losers in the world, and we heap scorn on anyone who suggests otherwise, so we want the state to reward the losers and punish the winners. That is to say, we want the state to do what the Church teaches that God does already. As if we don't really believe in our heart of hearts that it is true.

What Christianity does that is so radically new and different is that it says that the losers in a worldly sense can become and indeed are in God's eyes the true winners. This is not to advocate or romanticize poverty, heaven forbid. But it is at the core of our faith. And until we each individually experience that difference, we reduce our faith to a kind of moralistic self-righteousness.

It really has to do with control and power. Which is why the Church warns the wealthy man that it is difficult for him to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. It is because he has the illusion, because of his material wealth, that he is in control of his own destiny and has power over the world that he really does not have. But to forcibly take that power away from the wealthy man and give that power to the state is to play God.

Paul Cowan

05-03-2008, 06:26 AM

How does one start a new thread?

At the bottom of the page is a "community quick links" drop down.
Click on any of the topics. It will pull up threads related to that topic. At the top left corner of the page will be a "new thread" tab. Click it and start typing. Don't forget to put in a relevent title.

Paul

How bout that? Me, teaching someone how to get around on the forum. Wonders never cease.

Effie Ganatsios

05-03-2008, 08:13 AM

In one of my posts I said that we have enough trouble taking care of those on earth without having to bother about aliens - something like that anyway.

So, in answer to something I read and as a follow up of my comment - feeble link to alien question - I would like to tell you of the following.

Myy husband's auntie was widowed at about the age of 65 and she was left with a starvation pension from her husband. She was a role model for me with her joy in life, her humour, her courage.

She had had cancer - her husband died of it - and she was left with almost nothing. She was of the "old school" which meant that besides being quite elderly, she would have felt that people were criticizing her if she sold off a couple of blocks of land outside the city limits left to her by her husband (i.e. his family) so she sat down and started to think of what she could do. She rented a room in her tiny home to a female university student and she turned a hobby into something that generated income. She crocheted lace on commission. She was too proud to ask help from any of us, and we, knowing that she was relattively land rich, never thought that she was suffering economically. One day, not long before she died, I went for a visit and as we were having our coffee, in confidence she told me how she had coped the last 10 years. She did the things I have already told you about but she also received help from the church and from a very close friend who owned a small grocery shop and allowed her to pay whenever she could.
I am glad to be able to say that our Church helped her.

She was a very religious woman and also a very proud one. Her husband had worked hard all his life - surely people in need can expect to get a pension they can live on. Pensions are not free, pension dues are obligatory. The money any government receives from it's citizens should be managed wisely and those in real need should be looked after. This is not charity, it is justice. After all, people give money to the government for over 40 years and logically most of them will only receive a pension for a few years.

The subject of misuse of government money is a huge one and not relevant to this discussion and thread. But I believe that most hardship in well organized countries starts with this problem. Good stewardship of all resources including money is vital, both by us but also by our governments.

Andreas Moran

05-03-2008, 08:38 AM

Dear Owen and everyone,

I apologise for my last post here; everyone is entitled to his views. I ask forgiveness of you all.

In Christ,

Andreas.

Michael Stickles

05-03-2008, 03:56 PM

I was trying to figure out how to segue smoothly from the current rabbit trail back into talking about aliens, but, since I have no idea what the economic conditions on Arcturus are, or what percentage of Alpha Centaurians are on welfare, that's just not going to work. Abrupt topic shift follows.

From what I know Fr Seraphim Rose was the first Orthodox writer in English to come to the same conclusion about aliens. What he felt was that a fair amount of them were delusional or the result of misinterpreting the evidence. He also though felt that some experiences were genuine but originated from demonic spiritual sources. His basic idea was that through our lack of discernment & idle craving for supernatural experiences (something which he always related to passionate craving) we open ourselves to such false encounters. In his mind this was similar to the falls into spiritual delusion experienced in the past by those who had actively sought spiritual experiences.

The subject of UFOs & aliens isn't one which personally interests me very much. Anyway such things go in cycles and usually reflect a fad- so such 'sightings' were much more prevalent 20 years ago or so. Once though I saw a TV program on people who had experienced such encounters. This basically pointed to the correctness of Fr Seraphim's views. Some people seemed genuinely to have experienced something authentic. What was striking though was that these experiences were uniformly described as being malevolent. Absolutely none were of the ET or Close Encounters type of benign encounters. (Emphasis added)

Actually, while the malevolent encounters are far better known, there are numerous reports of encounters with benevolent "aliens". In fact, back when I was doing online research into nearby star systems (for an ill-fated attempt to write both a science fiction story and a guide for sci-fi writers), I kept running across sites by people who really believed that there was essentially an interstellar war going on "out there" between multiple alien races, and had produced a sort of "pocket guide to alien races", describing them and rating them as to friendliness or malevolence.

Among the "bad guys", there were the stereotypical big-eyed short-bodied ones called "Greys" (with multiple sub-races; these are the ones usually described by abductees), taller semi-reptilian types called "Nagarians" or "Saurians", pterodactyl-like hominids called "Dracons", and numerous others. The "good guys" included multiple races of human appearance (Lyrans, Taygeteans, Telosians, etc.), another of human appearance but extremely tall (10+') called "Nakim", and a few others. Overall I think there were around 40-50 types/races detailed (it varied, as they were pulling their information from various reports, tales and stories, and some stories were treated with more or less skepticism depending on which site you looked at). Also, many of the people running these sites claimed to have personally encountered various "alien" entities of both types.

That doesn't at all negate Fr Seraphim's analysis though - in fact, if he is correct, it should be expected. Since the devil "masquerades as an angel of light" and "his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness", we should not expect all of their appearances to be, well, "demonic" in overt appearance. They'll appear in whatever guise seems best suited to produce the deceptive effects they desire.

Mike

Effie Ganatsios

05-03-2008, 04:43 PM

The above post is totally off topic so I shall stop it here I think. (the one that has been shifted, not Mike's of course).

Back to "aliens". A lot of our saints have had experiences that, viewed objectively by a non-christian might seem to indicate that there are aliens and that they visit the earth. Our religion tells us that these are manifestations of evil and they can even make themselves look like Christ, the Theotokos or an angel. That is why we are constantly told not to trust such apparitions.

Wondering whether aliens exist or not is an exercise in futility. So can we know? Only if one lands at our feet in his little spaceship, and if this ever happens no one would ever believe us anyway. We would be considered delusional and insane.

Owen Jones

05-03-2008, 04:49 PM

I did start a new thread, for anyone who's not exhausted on the subject of "Is there a Christian economics?"

Father David Moser

05-03-2008, 04:52 PM

I have moved the last couple of posts about Economics (pension funds and such) to the new thread that Owen created to continue this discussion - please go here (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4681) to find the new thread.

Fr David Moser

Anna

05-03-2008, 06:56 PM

Okay, folks. I've read this thread through (all eight pages) and aside from the obvious rabbit trails, you've done a great job at discussing Orthodox thought on aliens and life on other planets.

So what else is there? How does one explain strange lights and airborne phenomena? Demonic activity? Yep. I would not doubt that a bit. Overactive imaginations and too much recreational pharmacuticals? Probably.

However, some of it has a much simpler explanation.

My father, who reposed twelve years ago, worked in experimental aircraft with the military after the war. There were hovercraft that ran rather quietly, and many other experiments that would have rivaled science fiction.

Fast forward to 1973, nearing the end of Vietnam, the military was known to conduct tests of experimental projects in areas that were not unlike the terrain of conflict. SE Missouri was a prime candidate in that regard. For a period of time, extending over three or four months, there were many, many sightings of unexplained lights moving across the countryside, viewed by dozens of people, often gathered in groups. There were disturbances of electromagnetic fields associated with some of these sightings, some made noise, others didn't.

The area became a hot spot in the UFO world for a while. UFOlogists of the time went in and conducted interviews, wrote articles, and then went on their way. In their wake were men who'd "visited the center of the earth" and talked with the "wee people" who lived there; prophets of doom; and enough tin foil to do Thanksgiving turkeys for 10,000.

Dr. J Alan Hynek, formerly of Project Bluebook, also arrived, bringing with him tales of swamp gas and atmospheric disturbances resulting in twinkling stars and planets. But there was one sighting he had trouble with. A man, his wife, and daughter saw a large light rise out of a field about 200 yards away or so, rise 50 feet in the air, then two side lights came on. Silently, the light left at a high rate of speed, disappearing from sight after flying quite near the trio. Next morning, the father and daughter examined the field and found no markings, nothing to indicate footsteps, landing gear, or the like. It was one of the closest "encounters" recorded at the time. He was left without words for a few moments.

Then, when Dr. Hynek tried to dismiss the sighting, he ran into a stumbling block. The man mentioned that while he understood Dr. Hynek worked for Project Bluebook, he himself had worked in experimental aircraft...can you guess the "rest of the story"?

I was thirteen at the time. My father was confident that what we saw could have easily been explained by advance technology--having hands on experience with what had been in place just 25 years earlier. We spent some time over the next few weeks uncovering hoaxes perpetrated on an unsuspecting public by those eager to continue raking in the profit from tourism. When it was over, we went on our way. My father founded a food pantry to help the underprivileged, and eventually entered the ministry. I went on to college, seminary, and wound up Orthodox. My mom went on supporting us in whatever we were up to at the time.

Sometimes it's neither aliens, drugs, nor demons. Sometimes it's just a little field testing for the US government...or whatever government.

Anna

Effie Ganatsios

06-03-2008, 08:46 AM

Anna, every so often there will be a TV programme about this subject. One thing I never fail to notice is that pictures of "alien spaceships" or strange lights or whatever are usually very fuzzy. Given that any photos I take are not that clear I understand that in the excitement of the moment some people might not think to adjust their cameras or videos, but I don't think I have seen even one really clear picture or video. I think this says a lot.

Effie

Jorgo Ristevski

14-05-2008, 06:46 PM

what do you think about this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080513/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_aliens

Herman Blaydoe

15-05-2008, 01:53 AM

what do you think about this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080513/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_aliens

Perhaps the Pope is a fan of C. S. Lewis and his Space Trilogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_Trilogy)?

Michael Stickles

16-05-2008, 04:56 PM

what do you think about this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080513/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_aliens

Plenty of people, from both the Christian and non-Christian camps, have claimed that the existence of intelligent extraterrestrials would be completely incompatible with Christianity. If aliens are indeed "conclusively found" (whether real, very clever fakes, demonic deceptions, or what have you), the rush to judgement against Christianity will be rapid, and the challenge to the faith of many will be immense. I think this may be just a "speed bump" placed in the way of such judgements and challenges (though that may not at all be Rev. Funes conscious intent in making his remarks).

In Christ,
Mike

Andreas Moran

16-05-2008, 05:22 PM

108

Hi, there!

Technologically challenged - it's supposed to move and our friend wave!

Michael Stickles

16-05-2008, 05:36 PM

Technologically challenged - it's supposed to move and our friend wave!

It works when I click on it and bring up the full-sized version - must be something in the way that pictures are "thumbnailed".

Fr Raphael Vereshack

16-05-2008, 08:43 PM

108

Hi, there!

Technologically challenged - it's supposed to move and our friend wave!

Undoubtedly this is what we mean in the litya prayers when we pray for deliverance from invasion by aliens.

Jonathan Companik

16-05-2008, 08:46 PM

Hello everyone! I am new to the board and quite intrigued by the topic here. Not because I necessarily want or need extraterrestrial intelligent life to occupy the outlying boundaries of the universe, but it is intriguing from a theological perspective.

Modern UFO phenomena a la abductions, experimental testing, various sightings of one form or another, and the religious zeal and ideology abounding from them tend to overwhelmingly support theories proffered by the likes of Fr. Seraphim of Platina and others. Good trees and bad trees will produce food commensurate with their nature, and we are seeing a lot of bad fruit produced today, whether the subject be attributed to recreational drugs, demonomic deception, advanced technology or all of the above. People crave deception, and get what they ask for - whether all of the "sightings" discussed thus far have been in fact objectively demonic or not. In many cases, it could simply be a testament to the sinfulness of man himself more than direct encounters with evil, bodiless powers (not to diminish the reality of demons).

Whatever the case, however, it is the question (in the abstract) of the theological possibility or impossibility of the existence of intelligent life elsewhere, far removed from the issue of late 19th and 20th century popular phenomena, that has merited my attention.

Let me throw out some questions. Underlying the possibility/impossibility speculation is the doctrine of theosis and how that is understood in terms of Incarnation. For example, was the Incarnation a necessary result of the creation of the earth and mankind or not, purely apart from a fall? If there are other races, would one Incarnation somewhere in the universe suffice to "redeem" all other intelligent (spirit endowed) races? If not, what of the possibility of multiple incarnations to other planets?

If God (through Christ) can adopt another nature in addition to His Divine Nature without diminishing or multiplying Personhood (i.e., the Second Member of the Trinity), then could he not became many natures without diminishing His divine nature or adding to the singularity of His unique hypostasis?

Or perhaps Christ's Incarnation to Earth accomplished the conditions for theosis for all other races in addition to ours (whether these 'other' races are fallen or not). This appears to the subject matter for one of C.S. Lewis's plots in the second volume of his renowned Space Trilogy.

It is true that Scripture teaches the human race was effected by Adam's sin because we share the same human nature. So the fall would not necessarily effect other races/natures. But if the Incarnation transcends the mere existence of sin to encompass created reality in itself, the Incarnation could be for other races whether or not they had fallen. (This is the view I hold, and so the Incarnation would have been a prerequisite for Adam's deification even if he hadn't sinned. The alternative would be legalistic and more compatible with Western theology.)

Now, when I say created reality, I am assuming that the existence of other races affected by an Incarnation would necessitate the possession of material bodies and natures characterized by continuity of sexual reproduction. This is why (IMO) demons cannot be redeemed: because they do not fall as material but as non-material natures. E.g., the Cherubim were all created according to the same pattern, but any Cherubim that fell would not have fallen as a nature in the sense that human nature fell, since sin cannot be "passed on" sexually among the angelic species. Thus, the aerial hosts that fell did so as individual hypostases, constituting them as unable to be changed subsequently by an Incarnation, since that would require the possession of a nature comparable to ours (i.e., consisting of both material and invisible elements).

I would like to speculate further, but I am cut short here as I am needed. Perhaps I will add to this later. In the mean time, theologize away!

Andreas Moran

16-05-2008, 09:25 PM

In a survey here in England of religious affiliation in 2005, 7% of those polled described themselves as 'Jedi Knights'. SUPPOSE THEY WEREN'T JOKING! I shan't sleep tonight!

Andreas Moran

16-05-2008, 09:41 PM

If not, what of the possibility of multiple incarnations to other planets?

If God (through Christ) can adopt another nature in addition to His Divine Nature without diminishing or multiplying Personhood (i.e., the Second Member of the Trinity), then could he not became many natures without diminishing His divine nature or adding to the singularity of His unique hypostasis?

A fascinating hypothesis. I can see in my mind's eye an icon of a Klingon Christ with an inscription in tlhlngan Hol.

Olga

17-05-2008, 12:30 AM

Undoubtedly this is what we mean in the litya prayers when we pray for deliverance from invasion by aliens.

Very good, Fr Raphael, very good. :D No surprise the phrase we use in our church at the Litia is "foreign invasion", it's hard to snicker at it.

Mike O'Grady

17-05-2008, 03:28 PM

Aliens are still God's creation - if one thinks otherwise they are implying each planet has its own god and therefore knowingly or unknowingly, they're Mormons!

Jonathan Companik

17-05-2008, 05:46 PM

A fascinating hypothesis. I can see in my mind's eye an icon of a Klingon Christ with an inscription in tlhlngan Hol.

Yes, it is quite fascinating. But it may not be a fool proof hypothesis. It is true that the Second Person of the Trinity can possess multiple natures without multiplying personhood (that would be Nestorian)...BUT, is it theologically possible for God to contain within himself multiple CREATED natures? Or would that be inherently heretical?

Still thinking on it...

Jonathan Companik

20-05-2008, 05:28 PM

Michael Stickles

21-05-2008, 12:44 AM

Were you all aware that, just days ago, the Vatican came out and stated that belief in alien races is compatible with Roman Catholic theology? Not that it means anything to us Orthodox directly, but what do you make of this?

Also, did you know that just days after this announcement, the U.K. government released some top secret documents on U.F.O.s?

Jorgo mentioned the Vatican statement up in post #163 of this thread (not many direct replies so far to that item), but I hadn't heard about the U.K. document release. Do you know if there was anything of great and lasting interest (or even light and temporary interest) in them?

In Christ,
Mike

Jonathan Companik

21-05-2008, 11:06 PM

I hadn't heard about the U.K. document release. Do you know if there was anything of great and lasting interest (or even light and temporary interest) in them?

In Christ,
Mike

Mike,

It was reported one evening on Larry King Live, who had a panel of four people discussing the matter. I had a crying baby in my arms and had to leave, unable to hear most of the analysis on the documents themselves, but I did catch one item from the docs: information was released that the government had tracked a U.F.O., and measured it as traveling ten nautical miles in 12 secs. That's about all I was able to glean from the segment.

Owen Jones

22-05-2008, 02:48 PM

The first book positing the existence of alien intelligent life from other planets was written in the 16th century. It was a natural, quite expected result of the new science of naturalism of the Italian "Renaissance." If you no longer need a God to explain natural processes, you still have the problem of where all this stuff comes from. The answer, of course, is aliens from outer space.

John M.

22-05-2008, 03:25 PM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'John M.' is identical to members 'Rick James York' and 'Rostislav'. The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

The first book positing the existence of alien intelligent life from other planets was written in the 16th century. It was a natural, quite expected result of the new science of naturalism of the Italian "Renaissance." If you no longer need a God to explain natural processes, you still have the problem of where all this stuff comes from. The answer, of course, is aliens from outer space.Yes. I once heard that humans have a place within themselves in which God should dwell. When a person is an atheist he has a gap that must be filled with a substitute that takes the place of God.

That's why idolatry came about and that's why modern man has so many things to obsess over. And then there is that old familiar observation, "If God did not exist, man would need to invent Him." Please correct me someone, if my memory of that quote is inaccurate.

John

James Blackstock

27-05-2008, 05:43 PM

OK! Not to be left out of this exciting subject! I offer a discription of Flying Saucers from the Bible

Zech 5 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll. And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits. Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it. I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof. Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth. And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth. And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

Just kidding! I think!

Seraphim

George Phon.

28-05-2008, 04:44 PM

Paul Cowan

29-05-2008, 01:38 AM

Didn't you see Star Trek IV? That was a flying tube that talked to whales. Maybe there is truth in the evolution thread. Maybe we came from whales.

Olga

29-05-2008, 08:34 AM

Not quite, Paul, go back and read The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. You'll find all the answers there. :D

Deanna Leonti

29-05-2008, 12:16 PM

what do you think about this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080513/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_aliens

I tried to go to this page and page was not found?.

Did anyone copy it?
if so may I read it?

Could it be possible that those who painted those "UFO" images on the ancient walls
somewhere ?were under the influence of something and caused a hallucination?.
look at the images that they thought their Gods looked like for an example?

well anyway
Thank You,

Deanna

Michael Stickles

29-05-2008, 09:47 PM

I tried to go to this page and page was not found?.

Did anyone copy it?
if so may I read it?

It's still out there, just not on Yahoo! anymore. Try one of these links:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-05-14-vatican-aliens_N.htm
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-et18-2008may18,0,5552312.story?track=rss
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-vatican-aliens,0,3969415.story?track=rss

The articles should be identical; I just wanted to increase the chance that at least one would still be online when you tried to access them.

In Christ,
Mike

Father David Moser

29-05-2008, 11:32 PM

Not quite, Paul, go back and read The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. You'll find all the answers there. :D

The answer, of course, is 42. But the real wisdom comes in knowing the question!

Fr David Moser

Paul Cowan

01-06-2008, 09:17 PM

The answer, of course, is 42. But the real wisdom comes in knowing the question!

Fr David Moser

Oh nooo; not you too Father. Your image is so tainted now in my mind. :P

Have you read the 4th book in the trilogy?

timoleon

02-06-2008, 10:29 PM

In one of the two books on Father Paisios by hieromonk Christodoulos of Agion Oros there is a section on Father Porfyrios. It said about a man who was doing katechitikon (don't know the english word on this sorry) in children. Once the children asked him about ufos. He didn't know what to say and he knew Father Porfyrios, he intented to ask him on a visit. He visited Father Porfyrios soon for a personal matter of his. Father Porfyrios advised him on it. Relieved he turned to leave and then father Porfyrios asked him "what do you think of these?" and made with his palm a move like a flying object. About the ufos that people say, said Father Porfyrios. The man marveled because he had forgotten to ask Father Porfyrios about ufos. Then Father Porfyrios told him that there isn't life anywhere else only on Earth and that these things -ufos- are of devils and demonic.

Also in a Greek book called "Martyries gia ton geronta Paisio apo proskinites" which tells personal stories from people knowing Father Paisios there is a text about a monk in Athos who asked father Paisios on aliens, if they exist in other worlds. And Father Paisios told him something like, as I remember it, that they went to Athos to save their souls and not to ask irrelevant questions.

I believe you know Alister Crowley. Once he summoned a demon and a form appeared to him in the shape the supposed alien greys have. If you google this you can find a sketch that he made. I don't doubt that they are demons and that life doesn't exist elsewhere but on Earth. The known astronomer J. Vallee said that the ufo phenomenon is real and that there is a conciousness behind it trying to alter the human culture and ideas in an unknown way. Then if you check the "disclosure project" check it in video.google.com or youtube you'll see that many credible people from US military, secret services, and companies (researchers and engineers) many of them high ranked and with their names want to testify in Congress that they were involved in many ways in the retrieval of vehicles and bodies of entities not from this world. That thay have copied , back engineered this technology and even that they cooperate with them on undergound bases.

IF THERE IS AN ORTHODOX PRIEST HERE I WANT HIS ADVICE on this question: If these witnesses say the truth can we say that in our years the demons have appeared in physical forms as supposed aliens?Can this happening? And maybe they want to drive us technologically in certain places or that in this way they want to appear as saviours and messiahs so that they can trick us? Many scientific works say that if an advanced civilization came in contact with Earth our civilization and society would collapse and we would follow their way. Could this be what demons want and they dare to appear in physical forms and cooperate with various people?

If an orthodox father can in this forum please answer me. Thank you and Christos Anesti, Christ is Risen!!!

Fr Raphael Vereshack

03-06-2008, 02:21 PM

If these witnesses say the truth can we say that in our years the demons have appeared in physical forms as supposed aliens?Can this happening? And maybe they want to drive us technologically in certain places or that in this way they want to appear as saviours and messiahs so that they can trick us? Many scientific works say that if an advanced civilization came in contact with Earth our civilization and society would collapse and we would follow their way. Could this be what demons want and they dare to appear in physical forms and cooperate with various people?

Quite a few years ago this is exactly what Fr Seraphim Rose said and wrote. I still trust that this is so.

In the risen Christ- Fr Raphael

Robert Hegwood

06-06-2008, 07:23 PM

If indeed our little earth is the only place that has life in all the universe then that raises for me an interesting related question to that of aliens. If we are "alone" then that leaves a literally astronomical amount of empty real estate out there. One has wonder does God intend that at some juncture life here will be given to take root and flourish out there? Is earth the "germ" of biological life meant to be spread across the heavens...or do we remain this little garden?

Frankly, I would not be adverse to learning in some not too distant future of the establishment of an Orthodox monastery in some cratered nook on Mars...a new "high Thebaid" of sorts.

Michael Stickles

06-06-2008, 08:45 PM

If we are "alone" then that leaves a literally astronomical amount of empty real estate out there. One has wonder does God intend that at some juncture life here will be given to take root and flourish out there? Is earth the "germ" of biological life meant to be spread across the heavens...or do we remain this little garden?

No need for life to spread "out there" to give the "out there" a purpose. I like to think of the universe as a massive cathedral. Its immense size stretching out beyond us is like the high vaulted ceilings of the medieval cathedrals towering above the worshippers; the stars, galaxies and constellations "declare the glory of God" as do the murals and stained glass art of the cathedrals. Perhaps the function of all that empty real estate is the same as the function of the vaulted "empty" space of a cathedral; by its sheer size and beauty to inspire awe in the viewer.

In Christ,
Mike

Paul Cowan

07-06-2008, 04:57 AM

Perhaps the function of all that empty real estate is the same as the function of the vaulted "empty" space of a cathedral; by its sheer size and beauty to inspire awe in the viewer.

In Christ,
Mike

Why does God make flowers? For the enjoyment of mankind.

We should learn more about our universe under the sea before we go trapsing off and destroying another ecology. I am all for space exploration, but we are still discovering "new" life forms under our deep oceans. Let's perfect this world, before we screw up another one. Or are we to the point now of disposable planets?

Paul

Jonathan Companik

07-06-2008, 07:33 AM

I prefer to be open-minded about these things. I think the abductions are clearly demonic. Are UFOs as such always demonic? That, IMO, is another question altogether. Even if contemporary sightings are (i.e. spiritual exploitation due to the profound naivete and ignorance of modern man), does it necessarily follow that alien races do not exist anywhere? Logically speaking, I can't see why this would have to be.

So, do they exist? Who knows. Do we "need" them to exist? No. Are we better off focusing on the salvation of our souls? Of course. But the logic which assumes that there must be something inherently demonic behind the mere notion that intelligent existence may reside elsewhere in the universe is, in my mind, as big a stretch conjecturally as the assumption that they do exist. I think God is a bit too big for us to decide what He can or can't do.

If an intelligent race existed elsewhere, would this destroy the Faith? Why? I guess I've never seen a very persuasive answer to that question.

Kosmas Damianides

13-06-2008, 03:21 PM

Hi Guys

If Aliens do in fact exist, and this is a big IF....do they have any chance of affecting us or contacting us? No, because if they are truly advanced life forms, (at least enough to make a radio or use electricity) they would have found a way to contact us by now.

Can we maybe find a way to contact them? No, because they probably think that we are just demons in disguise or believe that Aliens don't exist or find this topic a waste of their time.

Does God want us to bother with this topic? No, because there are much more important things to do, think or talk about.

Does God want them to contact us? No, they probably would be better off not knowing us. Furthermore, he probably feels that they should not waste their time and resources to do something so un-important.

What should we do then? Pray to God for our salvation and do what God wants us to do, help those in need, use our time most effectively and dilligently.

In Christ

Fr Kosmas

Ilias Ioa

07-09-2008, 08:12 PM

Hi,I spent many hours on the subject of ufos etc. I know the potential of it being demonic in nature, I have read father Seraphim Rose's books as well.I made this thread with the intention to ask the Orthodox Fathers in here their opinion on the matter.Many astronomers and astrobiologists after the latest discoveries say that it could be very possible for intelligent life to exist in the universe besides Earth.It would be really great if this was true.
As an orthodox christian I'm really interested on what can our Patristic Tradition and the orthodox dogma say on this.So my question is to to Fathers and Orthodox Priests here:Fathers does our Church has a position on the existence of intelligent life besides earth?Has any orthodox father or saint said something?
I respect the other users of the forum, but I don't need the opinions of other doctrines or religions on this matter, Orthodoxy is The Only Way for me.Thank you for your time,I await for your answers.

Joe Smith

08-01-2009, 12:50 AM

Vladimir Moss has an article on Genetics, UFOs, and the birth of the Antichrist, on his website.

They are clearly demonic. There are 10,000 documented cases in America of people who ,while being abducted by aliens, when they called on Christ, the aliens vanished. This should tell us something about there nature.

The whole Extra-Terrestrial movement is headed in the direction that they are our creators. This will be a massive deception in the last times.

Vasiliki D.

10-01-2009, 06:16 AM

Perhaps it is useful to note that in Genesis God did not directly create either animals or plants, rather He spoke to the water and to the land and told them to bring forth various kinds of life. Perhaps God made the foundational componants of creation fecund and life generating. That could mean perhaps that plant and a certian level of animal life might be possible on other suitably hospitable planets. Perhaps life is made to be an emmergent property of matter given the right conditions? Just a thought.

This brings up an interesting point raised on another thread - the correct translation of the word "epoisen" ... on the other thread the general consensus, according to the academics, is that this is accepted to be translated as "created" - However, there are a small few who prefer to use the word "authored" as a translation in lieu of created because Created versus authored imply two different ways of "creating", if you like. The word create gives an image of using ones hands to build to author implies you use your speech or your Word and it shapes ...

I personally preference the word "author" because I have heard of a scientific theory that describes creation having been influenced by light and sound waves ... such a theory (not fact of course) has merit if you thinkg of Word in its literal since ... the Word was God and the Word was made flesh and the Word is alive ... WORD ... SOUND WAVES - if God authored could it be that our world (scientifically speaking if the theory is correct) was shaped by sound and light waves rather than a theory of evolution ... or perhaps both but with God as the premise?

If I ever come across the technical name for this theory I will be sure to cite.

Olga

10-01-2009, 06:19 AM

I remember learning this theory in high school (about light and sound) ... if I ever come across its technical name and an article I will be sure to cite.

Vasiliki, it's called "quantum mechanics" or "quantum physics".

Vasiliki D.

10-01-2009, 06:33 AM

I would like to see some Orthodox writings dating further back than Father Seraphim Rose. He is a wonderful theologian but he is easy to disregard since he is from our day and age ...

If we could further substantiate the churches stance from writings dating to the early church fathers it would be nice, such as Saint Basil the Great ...

I have heard that Saint Basil wrote a wonderful book called the Hexaimeron ... surely, in this literary masterpiece (which I have not been fortunate enough to read) he must clear up the confusion of intelligent life existing anywhere but here ...

Can anyone who has read his work add to this discussion based on the words of the saint? My approach would be to ask the question:

Was all of Creation (including the universe) created for MAN? Does the Saint write about this?

If he writes that Creation WAS for man then:
a) the existance of micro-organisms on other planets fit into this premise of creation being made for man (as Father David has pointed out so many times) but
b) it would not support the existance of Alien life forms on other planets since HOW do they fit into serving a purpose for mankind?

ALL OF CREATION was created for MAN - for his survival and then for his salvation.

How would an alien help man in his survival and in his salvation?

Paul Cowan

10-01-2009, 06:45 AM

How would an alien help man in his survival and in his salvation?

Oh, that's easy. As soon as we screw up this world enough, they will come and take us to theirs so we can screw it up too. So, giving us more time to repent of our sins.

Vasiliki D.

10-01-2009, 06:50 AM

Oh, that's easy. As soon as we screw up this world enough, they will come and take us to theirs so we can screw it up too. So, giving us more time to repent of our sins.

I was being serious :-) Every single person on this thread can prove (using Patristics) that Creation was made for the survival and the salvation of MAN (not aliens). The logical progression from that is to quite easily prove that an alien can not assist in the survival and salvation of man ... and therefore can not exist ... and therefore what we see can only be attribnuted to visions of demons manifesting into a myth that they have created to deceive mankind ... using the art of philosophical if ... or ... and ...

Random Creation (and therefore) the possibility of intelligent lifeform elsewhere can not coexist with Genesis where God made Adam and Eve ... if he also made Aliens they would have participated in the story of Creation and they too should have had choice to taste from the tree.

Either God is wrong in Genesis (Creation was not made for man since it is random) or science is wrong (Creation was random and therefore man is not the centre of its purpose and the bible should be disgarded)

Paul Cowan

10-01-2009, 06:59 AM

I wasn't. I don't believe in aliens.

But then we do say in the Creed I believe in all things seen and unseen. Yes, I know it does not apply to what does not exist. In your theorum, I do not follow A to B.

The logical progression from that is to quite easily prove that an alien can not assist in the survival and salvation of man ... and just on that proof can never therefore actually exist

How do you (plural) know that if aliens existed they could not help man in his salvation? Since it cannot be proven until we interact with them, then the proof can never be proven.

Vasiliki D.

10-01-2009, 07:17 AM

I wasn't. I don't believe in aliens.

But then we do say in the Creed I believe in all things seen and unseen. Yes, I know it does not apply to what does not exist. In your theorum, I do not follow A to B.
Unseen references the angels who serve God and serve man, we have been told about them through the Scripture and the Tradition of the church ...

How do you (plural) know that if aliens existed they could not help man in his salvation? Since it cannot be proven until we interact with them, then the proof can never be proven.

Heheh ... they could not exist for our salvation merely because they would have been defined in the Bible ... Creation was made for man thefore everything WE need for salvation is defined in the Bible ... I wish I had a patristic quote that would back this up :-) The fact that the bible does not mention "aliens" in the understanding we have of what they are ... should be enough :-)

Paul Cowan

10-01-2009, 07:36 AM

The fact that the bible does not mention "aliens" in the understanding we have of what they are ... should be enough :-)

Careful there. That's a double edged sword. We fuss at the PC for saying the reverse.

Since aliens from other planets do not exist and we all know that, this thread is moot. But on the topic you just touched on we might expand it a bit? Because the Bible does or does not say something on a given topic, modern man seems at leisure to speculate. How many times have we heard someone say, "well, if it's not in the Bible..." or "the Bible does not say anything about (X)" . Computers are also not in the Bible, but look at us now.

I don't think the Fathers talk about aliens or mention anything about their existence or lack thereof. Demons, yes. Some have said if there is no life out there, it's alot of wasted space. Is it? Maybe it is God's way of showing us how small we are and the magnitude of His authorship abilities (to use your favorite word).

What did He say to Abraham and not being able to count the stars?

I was going somewhere with this thought, now I can't seem to remember where.

Vasiliki D.

10-01-2009, 08:02 AM

Careful there. That's a double edged sword. We fuss at the PC for saying the reverse.

Since aliens from other planets do not exist and we all know that, this thread is moot. But on the topic you just touched on we might expand it a bit? Because the Bible does or does not say something on a given topic, modern man seems at leisure to speculate. How many times have we heard someone say, "well, if it's not in the Bible..." or "the Bible does not say anything about (X)" . Computers are also not in the Bible, but look at us now.

I don't think the Fathers talk about aliens or mention anything about their existence or lack thereof. Demons, yes. Some have said if there is no life out there, it's alot of wasted space. Is it? Maybe it is God's way of showing us how small we are and the magnitude of His authorship abilities (to use your favorite word).

What did He say to Abraham and not being able to count the stars?

I was going somewhere with this thought, now I can't seem to remember where.

Yes, a very good point made Paul and fortunately we are on the same page with it and I agree it is a moot subject but there are even some who are Orthodox and speculate it as a possibility rather than trusting in the church on this matter ... and they have every right to ask questions .. there is nothing wrong with that provided we also trust the church in our search for the truth ...

I am not a Sola Scriptura individual ... for the reasons you mention. I DO believe everything we need for our salvation and for our survival IS in the bible ... those matters that are left out ... are left out intentionally by God because they are not necessary for us! This belief is quite different to the point u made :-)

Anything that was made for man is in the Bible is what I am saying. The computer is not made by God it is made by man (hence not in the bible) and so on. An 'alien' (by logic is not made by man and therefore, if made by God, would be mentioned by God ... the point that not everything is in the Bible doesnt hold with aliens because it is TOO important an issue to leave out ... hence, the fact its not there is because it doesnt exist ...

The existance of aliens (not as demons but as actual creatures with intelligence) would prove God to be a liar ... I really do think it is not one of those situations that it was left out because it ISNT :-) I hope you understand :-)

Oh, PS, perhaps Patristics dont touch aliens because they had IDOLS they dealt with instead ... in there era, they didnt have aliens ... they had statues that could do mystical things ...oracles who acted like demi-gods and so on ... there was enough demonic activity to fool people in this form for the demons requiring to look at alternative means to trick humans ...

Alexander Zhdanov

10-01-2009, 09:52 AM

Vasiliki D.

10-01-2009, 11:30 AM

I have understood the basic direction of the discussion and I basically agree with it. Certainly, those visions of aliens to which some people are subjected have demonic character. But it is also interesting that some Fathers did not reject existence of life on other planets . I did not read, but my brother told me that he read it in a book by St John of Kronshtad .As far as I remember the name of this book was "The beginning and the end of our mundane world". As far as I remeber I read similar opinion in a book by archbishop Luka ( Vojno-Jasenetsky) "Spirit, soul and body". Anyway he considered that planets and stars are really populated with reasonable beings-angels.
Alexander:)

See, this is a good reply because it gives us a direction towards patristical thinking on the matter ... if you can find the exact quotes that challenge the traditional thinking on the matter could you please post them. I wont be able to afford any new books in the short term so this new information would be invaluable. Luka Vojno-Jasenetsky is Saint Luke the Doctor, right? I think if he considers the universe to be populated with angels, this is a standard point of view for some theologians in the Orthodox church but it doesnt consider the concept of the viability of aliens :)

Father David Moser

10-01-2009, 06:48 PM

I would like to see some Orthodox writings dating further back than Father Seraphim Rose. He is a wonderful theologian but he is easy to disregard since he is from our day and age ...

The issue of "aliens from another planet" is an idea of quite recent origin, thus the early fathers would never have addressed it (why would they, it was a question that not only was not asked but wasn't even conceivable given the scientific knowledge of the time).

I have heard that Saint Basil wrote a wonderful book called the Hexaimeron ... surely, in this literary masterpiece (which I have not been fortunate enough to read)

You should take the time to read these sermons of St Basil the Great. The whole Hexameron can be found here (http://www.monachos.net/content/patristics/patristictexts/316-basil-collection-link). Two smaller files with just one each of the nine sermons can be found here (Homily 1) (http://www.monachos.net/content/patristics/patristictexts/115-basil-the-great-homily-1-in-the-beginning-god-made-heaven-and-earth) and here (Homily 5) (http://www.monachos.net/content/patristics/patristictexts/116-basil-the-great-homily-5-the-germination-of-the-earth) I think that if you read St Basil you will find some of the answers that you want. Another source that I often refer to is St John of Damascus, De Fide Orthodox (the Orthodox Faith) (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.iii.iv.html) (use the navigation bar on the left side to pull up each book and chapter.)

Was all of Creation (including the universe) created for MAN? Does the Saint write about this?

This was the prevailing view up until quite recently historically - probably beginning in about the 17th century, with the industrial revolution and the flowering of "modern science" this attitude met with the competing idea that man was just an animal, and then with Darwin's Origin of Species the idea was accellerated (no C. Darwin did not come up with that - in fact his grand father E. Darwin also championed the idea, but neither was it original to him I think.) Thus the idea of "aliens" or "life on other planets" would not have even been a conceivable question to the Church Fathers.

Fr David Moser

Father David Moser

10-01-2009, 07:31 PM

Some have said if there is no life out there, it's alot of wasted space. Is it? Maybe it is God's way of showing us how small we are and the magnitude of His authorship abilities (to use your favorite word).

Even though the universe is huge (by our standards not God's), I do not believe that it is "wasted space" but rather that such an enormous creation is necessary for the proper functioning of this world for us. In a clock there are many hidden gears and mechanisms and so on, but although none of it is seen and none of it would be recognizeable as a "clock" out of context, even the tiniest screw is necessary for the hands of the clock to consistently point to the correct time. So with the universe, even the smallest particle of matter or energy plays a part in the working of this world upon which God placed us. It is not "wasted space" but rather through the laws of physics and mathematics, each part (visible or invisible) plays its role in the visible working of the world making it the perfect place for us to work out our salvation. This vast and complex Universe is the sign of God's love and care for us.

Fr David Moser

Andreas Moran

11-01-2009, 02:44 AM

To follow on from Fr David's post, I heard some years ago a radio programme about the universe and views of it, and one scientist said that in terms of physics, the universe had to be as it is to sustain this planet Earth.

Olga

11-01-2009, 02:46 AM

Luka Vojno-Jasenetsky is Saint Luke the Doctor, right?

St Luke of Simferopol and Crimea's birth name, which he continued to use, even after his tonsure as a monk, in his secular profession as a doctor and later as professor of surgery was Valentin Voino-Yassenetsky. Quite an inspiring saint.

Theophrastus

11-01-2009, 02:53 AM

ALL OF CREATION was created for MAN - for his survival and then for his salvation.

How would an alien help man in his survival and in his salvation?

Man needs food to live. Food is gotten, ultimately, from plants. Plants are able to grow because of carbon. Carbon is created inside stars, like the sun. In order for there to be a sun, there has to be other stars. These other stars might have planets, which might have alien life.

Thus, the existence of alien life is made possible by the existence of stars, which themselves make possible Man's existence and salvation.

Vasiliki D.

11-01-2009, 03:05 AM

Man needs food to live. Food is gotten, ultimately, from plants. Plants are able to grow because of carbon. Carbon is created inside stars, like the sun. In order for there to be a sun, there has to be other stars. These other stars might have planets, which might have alien life.

Thus, the existence of alien life is made possible by the existence of stars, which themselves make possible Man's existence and salvation.

For me, just because other planets exist does not give enough merit to the argument aliens exists ... this is human reasoning.

Theophrastus

11-01-2009, 07:33 AM

For me, just because other planets exist does not give enough merit to the argument aliens exists ....

True, but don't be surprised if they do exist. :-)

Vasiliki D.

11-01-2009, 11:11 AM

True, but don't be surprised if they do exist. :-)

I can never be suprised by this ... they dont. Even if I see one in my face, I will always know and never doubt that they are demonic manifestations designed to alter my spiritual path.

Peter S.

17-01-2009, 10:59 PM

True, but don't be surprised if they do exist. :-)

We do not know about aliens, and humans have never been in contact with them so why not just forget them? But humans that have been in contact with God do not easily forget him.

Peter

Michael Stickles

18-01-2009, 02:24 AM

Even if I see one in my face, I will always know and never doubt that they are demonic manifestations designed to alter my spiritual path.

Unless they're actors setting you up for the next episode of "Candid Camera". :-)

Jonathan Companik

18-01-2009, 05:37 AM

The issue of "aliens from another planet" is an idea of quite recent origin, thus the early fathers would never have addressed it (why would they, it was a question that not only was not asked but wasn't even conceivable given the scientific knowledge of the time).

For those interested in the topic, there is an interesting study on this question I would encourage Orthodox everywhere to read. It is by Orthodox patristics scholar, Joseph P. Farrell entitled, "The Cosmic War: Interplanetary Warfare, Modern Physics, and Ancient Texts." The author also has over 30 years experience in physics research, and has studied the ancient texts in question.

Dr. Farrell, incidentally, has also written a number of wonderful theological books, including, "Free Choice in St. Maximus the Confessor", "The Disputation with Pyrrhus of Our Father Among the Saints, Maximus the Confessor", and "God, History, and Dialectic: The Theological Foundations of the Two Europes".

Andreas Moran

18-01-2009, 09:36 AM

There are no aliens and Orthodox Christians shouldn't be wasting their time pondering whether there are!

M.C. Steenberg

18-01-2009, 08:48 PM

Dear friends,

Do let's try to keep discussion constructive and useful. Well worn statements of what one believes about the existence of various ideas of life (i.e. such as 'aliens' exist) have likely already been said by participants, and don't need excessive repeating. Let's focus on some of the actual themes of address in this topic; or move on to other topics that interest one more.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Sunny

15-02-2009, 10:11 AM

Hi to all,
I finally finished reading through this entire thread. I used to live in Phoenix and was one of the hundreds if not thousands of people who saw the V-shaped lights above the city a few years back. They were endlessly videotaped and no rational explanation was ever found. I saw them from my backyard and also while driving downtown as they stayed immovable for a long time-and they were HUGE. Saying they don't exist because some spiritual person says they don't is illogical. If the airforce base was the cause why would they park them right over the city? It was bizarre. It is also disorienting and frightening to me and doesn't help me personally to be told to forget them and focus on my salvation. I wish we had a government that didn't keep secrets but I guess this is part of the time we live in.
Sunny

Theophrastus

15-02-2009, 04:35 PM

Vasiliki D.

15-02-2009, 09:48 PM

My SF says, if you see an alien and even better, if one wants to talk to you ... just tell them that you love God and ask them to pray with you ... something like the Supplicatory Canon to the Virgin should do the trick ...

;-)

Olga

15-02-2009, 11:12 PM

... something like the Supplicatory Canon to the Virgin should do the trick ...

That might take too long, Vasiliki, and one's service book might not be handy when face to face with an alien or its manifestation. Might be more useful to say the "Holy God, Holy Mighty" prayer, or the Jesus prayer while crossing oneself. ;)

Vasiliki D.

15-02-2009, 11:25 PM

That might take too long, Vasiliki, and one's service book might not be handy when face to face with an alien or its manifestation. Might be more useful to say the "Holy God, Holy Mighty" prayer, or the Jesus prayer while crossing oneself. ;)

Haha! Well, I hear that aliens LOVE the Virgin mary ... since they are from outerspace (the heavens) they really really know how beautiful her presence is in our lives and they absolutely love to hear the: Axion Estin prayer ...

I mean, we being gravious hosts, if we were to see an alien ...I think it is only polite of us to sing in joy with the aliens a lovely prayer of worship to our Holy Mother!!

ROFL.

Sunny

16-02-2009, 05:42 AM

Vasiliki D.

16-02-2009, 05:50 AM

Sunny,

You should be more concerned that the devil makes a mockery of people.

Our posts were not jokes - they are not intended at teasing people ... they were posts by two Orthodox who recognise the power of prayer and the the affects of those prayers have on revealing the truth.

If you would like, we were making a mockery of the devil who is making a mockery of so many poor and innocent people with his deceptions.

Alice

16-02-2009, 02:56 PM

I never heard the flare explanation and find it very hard to believe. The lights were bright white, round, and could be seen for miles. They also did not move or bounce around like they were tied to a balloon. At that altitude you've got wind to deal with. They did not appear to be moving to me. You had to be there I guess, but I have to say making jokes about this is in poor taste, especially to the thousands who have seen unusual events in the sky and are troubled by them.
Sunny

Dear sister in Christ, Sunny,

For what it is worth, I believe you. I cannot explain these phenomena. Sometimes I think that some accounts I have read do sound like demonic attacks (a Mexican policeman who was assaulted by some alien type of beings for instance) and other times, like in what you saw, I do not know for sure.

The only thing I can say, (and I can sense that it left an indelible mark upon your memory), is to try not to think or contmeplate about it too much, because *that* in itself can be a trick of the evil one to make you question our faith in our Lord.

When we think too much about mysteries of the universe it can threaten the very foundation of faith in God. Our intellect can sometimes be our worst enemy...that is why faith is of the heart.

When we die and hopefully find ourselves close to the Lord, I am sure that all the mysteries which exist in the world but which we cannot explain will be revealed. In the meantime, be in peace and try to think and concentrate more on your spiritual path in this world and the hope of the world to come with all assuredness in that which *we do know for sure*, our revealed annointed one (Christ), Jesus, the Lord God, became man for us and for our salvation. :-)

In His love and peace,
Alice :-)

Herman Blaydoe

16-02-2009, 03:50 PM

I never heard the flare explanation and find it very hard to believe. The lights were bright white, round, and could be seen for miles. They also did not move or bounce around like they were tied to a balloon. At that altitude you've got wind to deal with. They did not appear to be moving to me. You had to be there I guess, but I have to say making jokes about this is in poor taste, especially to the thousands who have seen unusual events in the sky and are troubled by them.
Sunny

I have worked with weather (high altitude) balloons, just this past summer. They don't behave like party balloons, they don't bounce around. At altitude things moving at a very high speed do not appear to be moving much at all, and a flare in the sky would indeed be a bright white and round light. Sorry but based on my own experience, this seems like a very plausible explanation, much more so than aliens.

Let's look at this logically, shall we? We can't even find one old Moslem on dialysis, nor prevent his cohorts from causing trouble. Do you honestly believe that a civilization with technology capable of intergalactic travel can be prevented from making its presence known to us? And if they don't want to be "known", why are they so bad at keeping themselves "secret" if all these reports are to be believed?

I have seen a strange thing or too in my day however, this is not the time or place to go into that. I do think it is worthwhile to note that ordinary things can seem very extraordinary from a strange perspective and can be very difficult to recognize for what they are. And the persistence of insistence is amazing. There are people that still believe that a little girl actually took picture of fairies (http://www.cottingleyconnect.org.uk/fairs.htm). Then again, if you want to believe in aliens, who are we to say otherwise. But do not be troubled, keep your eyes on Christ and that which is needful and don't get to worked up over the other stuff, real or imagined.

Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

John 14:27

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

Ben Johnson

11-08-2009, 07:41 AM

Our galaxy, not to mention millions of other galaxies, is certainly big enough for life to exist outside of earth. All I can say is, if the LORD wants life to exist outside of earth, it does. If the LORD does not want life to exist outside of earth, it does not.

J. K. Amra

24-09-2009, 10:45 AM

Some Fathers of the Church, including Seraphim Rose, have written that the UFO's are actually demons, and I completely agree with this, all evidence points to them being spiritual beings that physically manifest themselves in this dimention.

If you want any further proof, then google "Aliester Crowley LAM", LAM is a demon that Satanist Aliester Crowley contacted in the 1920's, and that picture (drawn by Crowley) is dated the same time, see and similarities between LAM and the present image of what we now know as aliens? They are indeed nephilim, the watchers from the sky that the Bible mentions, Lucifer's fallen angels.

If you want more on this, you can check out these videos, I have found them be of great help to anyone who watches them, Orthodox and non.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7tLlXF_upk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tEH2KeaUzs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar0zFEkKClo&feature=related

Don't fall victim to the lies of the New Age and what the government wants you to believe, I know we should all focus our eyes on the Lord at all times, but it doesn't do us harm to know our enemy and the tricks he has in store for us in order to usher in his New World Order.

God Bless.