Explain the faith in 4 sentences

[Karen Hammer]

Something unusual happened tonight at my favorite coffee shop. I was talking to Jay, one of the workers there about his college classes that he started this week. Jay is a foreigner and he wants my tutoring for his English composition class, which I said I would do. Standing with him was his coworker, who is also a student--and a young Muslim. This muslim is a young person about 18-20 years old who is taking a class in Christian theology at a secular university.

Upon overhearing my conversation with Jay, she asked if I would help her with her homework. Her assignment for this week was: If you were a missionary sent to Mars to convert the inhabitants, how would you present the Christian message in the simplest, most concise way (specifically in 4 sentences)?

She said that being Muslim she didn't know much about Christianity and so she asked to sit down with me to hear about it. I explained it to her in the simplest terms I could. I had about 10 minutes to do so before she had to go back to work. I could tell that while I was laying out the plan of God for the salvation of humanity that she was much intrigued and that it seemed to hit her with special force and her eyes would light up at times with delighted interest. Or so it seemed to me.

She said she's going to email me more questions and I'll probably be talking with her at the coffee shop throughout the semester. So I would appreciate your prayers. I'm a poor hand at this, but somehow this fell into my lap. We'll see where this goes.

My question to you all: if you had this situation, how would you explain the faith to a Muslim in 4 sentences?

[Paul Cowan]

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only begotten, begotten of the Father before all worlds; Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man;

And was crucified also us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

And on the third day He arose again according to the Scriptures.

And ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end;

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church;

I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins;

I look for the resurrection of the dead;

And the life of the world to come. Amen


Easy, just take out the periods, except for four of them, and add semi-colons. Anything less than this is not the Christian Faith.

Paul

[Olga]

An even shorter summary of the Faith is the hymn of Justinian the Great, sung during the Divine Liturgy: "Only-begotten Son and immortal Word of God ...."

[Paul Cowan]

An even shorter summary of the Faith is the hymn of Justinian the Great, sung during the Divine Liturgy: "Only-begotten Son and immortal Word of God ...."


But Olga,

You just put all four periods right there in the first sentence. How on earth will she manage?

(I am just kidding you guys) Lighten up!

[Mourad Mankarios]

Something unusual happened tonight at my favorite coffee shop. I was talking to Jay, one of the workers there about his college classes that he started this week. Jay is a foreigner and he wants my tutoring for his English composition class, which I said I would do. Standing with him was his coworker, who is also a student--and a young Muslim. This muslim is a young person about 18-20 years old who is taking a class in Christian theology at a secular university.

Upon overhearing my conversation with Jay, she asked if I would help her with her homework. Her assignment for this week was: If you were a missionary sent to Mars to convert the inhabitants, how would you present the Christian message in the simplest, most concise way (specifically in 4 sentences)?

She said that being Muslim she didn't know much about Christianity and so she asked to sit down with me to hear about it. I explained it to her in the simplest terms I could. I had about 10 minutes to do so before she had to go back to work. I could tell that while I was laying out the plan of God for the salvation of humanity that she was much intrigued and that it seemed to hit her with special force and her eyes would light up at times with delighted interest. Or so it seemed to me.

She said she's going to email me more questions and I'll probably be talking with her at the coffee shop throughout the semester. So I would appreciate your prayers. I'm a poor hand at this, but somehow this fell into my lap. We'll see where this goes.

My question to you all: if you had this situation, how would you explain the faith to a Muslim in 4 sentences?

In one word can the Christian message be summarised, ie LOVE. God is love, the church is the house of love and the only law governing this house is love. Creation is the song of God's love sung forth in beautiful melody and in love furnishing His creation with all its needs. When creation forgot love, in love God humbly became man taught us and showed us love and even gave His life for His creation out of love and hence calls all people to the way of LOVE.

[Nina]

But Olga,

You just put all four periods right there in the first sentence. How on earth will she manage?

(I am just kidding you guys) Lighten up!

Lots of giggles

[Antonios]

To put Mourad's statement in four sentences...


God loves us, so He created us, so that we could share in His love.

God loves us, so He revealed Himself, so that we could know the Truth.

God loves us, so He died for us, so that the Truth could be shared by all.

God loves us because God is love.

Amen.

(oops, thats five!)

[Antonios]

Actually, I just realized Mourad's post was four sentences as well. Well, mine was actually five. Does 'Amen' count as a sentence?

[Herman Blaydoe]

Lord Jesus Christ,
Son of God,
Have mercy on me,
A sinner.

These four phrases summarize the entirety of Holy Scripture. They tell us who Christ is, who we are, and why it is important.

Just a thought.

[Herman Blaydoe]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

That is only one sentence, even if it is a very good one. OK let's try it in four:
(1) Sin is a disease and we are sick unto death. (2) But Christ the Heavenly Physician gives us His spiritual hospital, the Holy Church, so that we may find the cure. (3) He gives us Divine Medicine which is His own Body and Blood and therapy in the Divine services and Sacraments. (4) Through His death and resurrection He pays our debt and reclaims His own to salvation.

[Michael Stickles]

I'll give it a try too.

"God created man in His own image and likeness. But man sinned and damaged the image of God within him. So God in love sent His Son Jesus into the world as a man, to repair this damaged image through His sinless life, His death, and His ressurection. Now Christ calls us to share in this healing through faith in Him and through participation in His Body, which is the Church."

Interestingly, I heard of a newspaper editor who once boasted that he could condense the whole New Testament into one paragraph. When someone challenged him on it, he came up with these four sentences:

"He was born. He taught. He died. He's coming back, and he's not going to be real happy."

I think we can all agree this wouldn't work - he left a lot out :-).

In Christ,
Mike

[Bratislav]

My question to you all: if you had this situation, how would you explain the faith to a Muslim in 4 sentences?

Dear in Christ Karen,

I suggest not giving her the four sentences as that would seem tantamount to doing her homework. :) Explain to her as best you can what the faith is, and let her devise these four sentences based upon what she has learned from you. Finding out what she understood as the core of the faith after your tutoring could be quite interesting.

-Bratislav

[Owen Jones]

God created in His image and likeness.

Man turned away from God, thinking he could be like God on his own.

God knew this in advance, and already had a plan in place for our return to Him -- by the deification of man through the power of the Holy Trinity becoming available to each and every human heart.

The Church is the meeting point between God and man, through the God-man Jesus Christ, and is the philanthropic principle made manifest to all who have the eyes to see and the ears to hear.

[Antonios]

This has turned out to be a most wonderful excercise!

Now, in 400 words or less, explain the Holy Trinity.

:)

[Nina]

Easy, just take out the periods, except for four of them, and add semi-colons. Anything less than this is not the Christian Faith.

Paul

I agree Paul. The Creed.

[Karen Hammer]

I left the business of coming up with the 4 sentences describing the faith up to her. But I gave her a more lengthy explanation and I tried to make it as simple as I could. I didn't quote the creed to her because it is a very flat, almost impersonal statement of doctrine. I grew up having memorized it, but the import of its teachings didn't sink in for years (not until I came to Orthodoxy)--I had wondered what's this statement got to do with me. What do I do with it? What would I gain by believing it? With this past struggle in mind, I tried to explain Christianity to her through explaining the image of God--what it has to do with us.

I explained that God our creator made us in his image. (She got wide-eyed at this) What is God's image--He is Truth, Beauty, Goodness. God is Love, its very essence. Our destiny was to be like Him.

God is a Person who created humanity to have a relationship with him. We are his children and He loves us like a father.

Though we had spoiled this image through disbelief and disobedience, God was determined to redeemed it from darkness and death by putting on man's flesh and living man's life and dying his death. I said God made himself into a man so that He could make man like Himself. So I explained the Incarnation to her (she had confused that term with reincarnation.)

I said that Mary who bore Christ in the womb is a picture of what all Christians are to be--God bearers, the temple of God in purity and holiness and willingness to bear his image.

I said that God, having put His image in us, gave us free will to decide whether or not we should walk in His path. This gift was because he didn't make us animals who have no choice but to act out of instinct, but persons only a little lower than the angels. Free will allows us to obey God freely. (She seemed intrigued by this. Islam is very deterministic by comparison.)

I repeated these themes several times because I wasn't sure how much she could understand. She understood English well enough, speaking it with an American accent, but she had no background knowledge of Christian belief. She said that from what she learned from me, she can see how different Christianity is from Islam.

That's all I could get in before she had to go back to work.

I had a prior experience of talking about Christ with an Afghan muslim immigrant, who told me what she knew about Jesus: "He lives in a bubble." I didn't know what she meant at the time. Later I figured it out. She had seen some icons of Jesus standing in a mandorla. If I had realized what she meant, then I could have used that image to talk about His divinity, how he was the Word that created the world.

[Owen Jones]

Beautiful! Excellent! I don't think the Creed was ever intended as an evangelistic statement. It is for us. For people who are illumined. This last post shows that we need to know our audience. Image and likeness seems to me to be the key...

[Andreas Moran]

A close friend of mine (Orthodox) used to work in the public sector in Rotherham (where many churches became mosques). He had a photo of Elder Sophrony in a corner of his office. One day, a Muslim came to see him. The man was shown into my friend's office, but before he even said anything, he saw the photo of Elder Sophrony, went up to it, reflected a moment, then turned to my friend, smiled, and said, 'that man has the light of God'.

[Owen Jones]

Not being satisfied with my response to this interesting challenge, let me offer this:

True Salvation is God's Beauty applied to us.

Orthodox Christianity is God's Beauty applied to us.

This distinguishes Orthodoxy from all the poor imitations.

The Beauty of Orthodoxy is that its liturgy is a work on behalf of all creation.

[Karen Hammer]

A close friend of mine (Orthodox) used to work in the public sector in Rotherham (where many churches became mosques). He had a photo of Elder Sophrony in a corner of his office. One day, a Muslim came to see him. The man was shown into my friend's office, but before he even said anything, he saw the photo of Elder Sophrony, went up to it, reflected a moment, then turned to my friend, smiled, and said, 'that man has the light of God'.

Andreas--did you get an opportunity to discuss "the light of God" with this man?

How about the rest of you--what opportunities/experiences have you all had with muslims in explaining the faith? What observations did you have about how they reacted to certain explanations?

[M.C. Steenberg]

I was grateful to read Karen and others' responses.

I would not begin with the creed. One must remember that, traditionally, the Church has not used the creed as a missionary tool in this way; and that in terms of catechesis itself, has traditionally seen the creed as something terminal - into encounter with which the catechumen is brought towards the end of the period of instruction, leading to baptism, rather than at the beginning. In the early Church, for example, it was left until the final days of catechetical instruction, not told to those about-to-be-illumined until perhaps a few days before their baptism, when they were already certain of their commitment to be received into the Church. And then it was a thing received as if a precious secret: not written down, not read, but heard and received into the heart, to be kept alive in the memory on the way to the font; a thing not to be spoken of to others. Witness of this is still seen in each celebration of the Divine Liturgy, when the deacon proclaims 'The doors, the doors!' before the recitation of the creed, indicating the time when the doors of the temple formerly were barred so that even the catechumens were not present, and words of the creed spoken and heard only by the faithful.

Patterns and practices may have changed since those early days, and we may not keep the creed as part of the disciplina arcana, 'secret things', of the Christian ecclesial life; but I would still hesitate - deeply - to make it a point of first encounter with Christianity. It's words are deep and hard. They presume a ready awareness of much of what is said.

Perhaps one could look to the writings of some of the great catechists, even of more recent times. The text we were exploring earlier, St Innocent's The Way into the Kingdom of Heaven, gives a rather different approach.

[Mary]

I hope more and more people contribute to this thread! It's so beautiful! I agree that the Creed fits best at the end. My first few months after baptism, various parts of the Creed would cause me to weep, but only because I was finally able to understand/feel/know what it all truly meant.

I've wondered often, what I'd do if I had to explain orthodoxy in five minutes or less and I haven't come up with a good answer. I haven't spoken with any Muslims. Former protestant friends and family are the only ones I've spoken to. I've never had the same conversation twice.

In my recent trip to India, I had many opportunities to talk to my brother-in-law - who just got a scholarship to do his masters in 'Christian Education'. He was telling me they had an orthodox (Ethiopian) seminary professor speak at his college, and the man said that whoever believes that Christ is the only way to God/heaven/forgiveness of sins/ etc, is a part of the church. I told him, that man isn't orthodox. Because the Orthodox believe in One True Church, which is a big stumbling block to all ecumenical protestants, but there's no compromise, however much you love your friends and relatives and want to include them.

He was listening, so I told him that in saying we're the One True Church, we do not mean that God can't or doesn't save anyone outside of the Church. God is everywhere, but not to the same degree. In the Old testament, He was more in Israel, than in Nineveh, but He still saved the Ninevites. Even in Israel, His presence wasn't equally distributed, He chose the Temple for His dwelling place, and even there, He chose the Holy of Holies where He was most present. So it is now, that the fullness of His presence is in the Orthodox church.

That was the only thing I was able to say the whole trip that he didn't have an arguement or an explaination for. I dont' know if it's because he realized that it makes sense or because he decided that I've completely lost my senses! =)

But I sure wouldn't know where to begin, to talk about orthodoxy, with someone who is totally clueless about Christianity! Thank you so much for all your wonderful ideas. More please... =)

In Christ,
Mary.

PS: Paul - sentences that are as long as paragraphs, with periods that are so far away from the beginning, are like long long spaghetti noodles that you're trying to slurp up from one end, and by the time you get to the other end, you have sauce all over your face, up your nose and in your eyes - lots of fun but a big mess... =)

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Karen,

I never met this particular Muslim. Actually, the only Muslims I meet are among my students, and I think saying anything to them about Orthodox Christianity would be inappropriate. But I'm sure they know my allegiance - the few icons in my office are not hidden, and two colleagues have been with me to the Divine Liturgy at the monastery here. Generally, it ought to be easier to explain Orthodoxy to a muslim than to an average English agnostic or atheist. I presume most people have only a sketchy idea of what Christianity itself is about, and to explain Orthodoxy to 'the man on the Clapham omnibus' would require the ablest missionary to be at his most persuasive. My late first wife's family and my family knew of our involvement in the Church and it made not a blind bit of difference to any of them. They weren't even curious about it. Again, I went to an Orthodox baptism not long ago. The parents are Orthodox (one English recent convert, one Russian) and the father's family are a mixture of RC and Protestant. There were scarcely muffled murmurs of outrage when the baby was immersed - 'awful', 'cruel', poor little mite', etc. We have to remember that we are a tiny minority, and most people haven't a clue what we are and what we do, and they couldn't care less. The most exacting challenge for mission is right in front of us, and I for one have no idea what to do about it.

[Nina]

Well I liked Paul's reply about the Creed, because if we try to talk to others about our Faith, the Creed is our beacon. I did not think that Karen would take that as a block answer. The Creed is what would direct Karen in explaining; and then the difficult part of presenting Christianity in four sentences would fall on the poor girl who was the audience - I sympathize with her, because I can not really present my faith in only four sentences. (Why not in 3, or 7, 12, 40? -this are some numbers of Christianity :) that teacher who gave the assignment, should have known.)

'Knowing the audience' is overrated. Because Christ Himself, Who knows humans better than we even know ourselves, could get His message across to some and not to others. He knew them even before they were born, He knew the depths of their hearts and some embraced His message and some turned the back to Him (like the rich man for example, who triggered the saying "it will be easier for the camel..."). If the heart of a person is hardened when he/she hears about Christ, there is no knowing of that audience which might change their hearts. This does not mean we have to give up.

Dear Karen: In regards to talking to Muslims about Christianity... Pray before to God if you know about such encounter, pray afterwards and be patient because the change does not come sometimes in a blink (if it does thank God, glory to God!!! Be prepared to cry and be moved and say 'why me?! why did I have to witness such spiritual rebirth and beauty?!' because it is really a beautiful experience and a gift from God for you as a Christian to witness it; it is also a humbling experience). Know what you are speaking to them about. Make sure to explain that Christ is not a prophet. These are some of the things that I have learned when I have talked to people who belonged to Islam. If I think about any other relevant thing, I will reply again. Thank you for your love to help them meet Christ!

[Paul Cowan]

Matthew,

When you say;

In the early Church, for example, it was left until the final days of catechetical instruction, not told to those about-to-be-illumined until perhaps a few days before their baptism, when they were already certain of their commitment to be received into the Church. And then it was a thing received as if a precious secret: not written down, not read, but heard and received into the heart, to be kept alive in the memory on the way to the font; a thing not to be spoken of to others. Witness of this is still seen in each celebration of the Divine Liturgy, when the deacon proclaims 'The doors, the doors!' before the recitation of the creed, indicating the time when the doors of the temple formerly were barred so that even the catechumens were not present, and words of the creed spoken and heard only by the faithful.


I think you are correct and my first post was one of convert zealousness. (also trying to be cute) When asked about my Faith by others, I don't necessarily recite the Creed, but do talk about it's points in a way they might understand. Lord knows I don't understand much of what I am taught and have recently been advised to believe the mysteries and stop using my "brain" so much.

Not that I am saying I should believe blindly, but 2000 years of the Fathers is more than my measly 41 years on earth and 5 as an Orthodox. Recently I was asked what the OC believe by a LDS and protestant. I recited the Creed, and they both said, "oh, that's what we believe too". I then went on to show that they really did not believe the same thing. So the Creed is a final conclusion to what catacism class is for.

Know your audience. Just because a professor says "in 4 sentences" does not mean it can be done. Just like if I asked you to explain the theory of relativity in 4 sentences. You could give the formula in a few characters, but not the theory. The Creed is our formula. The theory has taken 2000 years and continues.

Paul

[Karen Hammer]

I
...the Orthodox believe in One True Church, which is a big stumbling block to all ecumenical protestants, but there's no compromise, however much you love your friends and relatives and want to include them.

He was listening, so I told him that in saying we're the One True Church, we do not mean that God can't or doesn't save anyone outside of the Church. God is everywhere, but not to the same degree. In the Old testament, He was more in Israel, than in Nineveh, but He still saved the Ninevites. Even in Israel, His presence wasn't equally distributed, He chose the Temple for His dwelling place, and even there, He chose the Holy of Holies where He was most present. So it is now, that the fullness of His presence is in the Orthodox church.


This is a good way to describe the status of Protestants. Wished I thought of it. I've been e-dialoguing with some kind of Baptist for 2 years and we finally got around to the "one true church" issue. (As I knew it would be touchy.) To have brought up the issue at all was received as if I was speaking a totally unintelligible language to him. Protestant simply refuse to accept that the Church is a vital entity--the actual bride of Christ--and not just a "fellowship" (like the Elks club) of like-minded folks.

The Church is not necessary in the Protestant mindset, only individual belief is and it hardly matters how one comes by his belief. I kept pressing to ask himself where his church is getting their authority to determine doctrine. I asked many questions about his concept of church and all he could say is that "you and I believe the same things about Christ. We're not like those liberals who deny Christ's divinity. We use the Nicene creed, too." But I asked him why is his church separate from not only us, but from every other church, he had no answer about that. All he could say is that "we're based on the Bible". I asked--"who interpreted your Bible." "Our pastors have master's degrees." "Who ordained them and where do those people get the authority to ordain anyone?" And so on.

I think the only thing he came away with is his church is not considered by the Orthodox (nor by the Catholics) to be part of the ancient Church. This is an uncomfortable revelation to him and I strongly suspect by this Monday he will end the dialogue.

Back to the muslims, in some ways it is easier to talk to someone who hasn't a clue about Christianity. But the ones that live in our post-Christian culture are quick to see that all is not well within Christianity. The owner of the coffee shop I frequent is also muslim. A few years ago, he came to my table to say how upset he was with the ordination of the gay Episcopalian bishop. I tried to explain a little something about that the Episcopalians are so liberal, but he stopped me and said: "I don't care whether they are liberals or not. They're Christians. Christian is Christian--that's what I see. What are you all doing letting this happen? Where is the outrage? How can I raise my family uprightly in this corrupt culture?" I had no answer. We can see where the true Church is and what it stands for, but outsiders like the muslims think that the mishmash of corrupted christianities constitutes the whole Church.

The wheat and the tares grow together, but I think that in history the wheat has been mowed down along with the tares, as outsiders can't make the distinction. Nor can they be expected to. What can we do?

[Antonios]

How about the rest of you--what opportunities/experiences have you all had with muslims in explaining the faith? What observations did you have about how they reacted to certain explanations?

Dear Karen,

I had a profound encounter with one on my closest college friends who was born and raised in Egypt and who was also one of the groomsmen at my wedding. I was asking him one day about the beliefs of Islam and what the aim of the Islamic life is. He described to me certain teachings and I listened quiet and attentively. (I had already studied much about the basics of Islam, but he did bring fresh insight into the discussion).

I then asked him to describe to me how Jesus Christ is regarded in Islam, that is, "who do they say He is?". I listened to his explanation of Christ, and then asked him, "If He wasn't the Son of God, than He was a liar, and if He was a liar, than what kind of prophet was He?"

I thought I could see my reflection on his iris, his eyes were so wide open!

After a moments silence, I began to explain to him that there can only be one Truth. That we need, as descendants of Abraham, as children of the Living God, to ask ourselves one important question, a question that may very well decide our eternal destinies: "Who do we say He is?"

If you ask that to a muslim, (and I've asked a few), there's always a moment that immediately follows, a hesitation, an effort at reasoning and justifying, where the Light of Christ is ready to interject and to illumine. In fact, I would venture to say it is the Holy Spirit which enters into their heart. This may often seem fleeting, and if well rehearsed, even unnoticeable. But it leaves an eternal effect in the other's soul, and if by the will of God, in their heart.

A muslim must always, at the end, try to come to terms with the Cross. And to those whom have ears, listen!

"For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them." (Isaiah 6:9-10)

As for my friend, we spent hours of joyful talking that night about God and Truth and Life. The next day he was moving to Dubai to live with his brand new Protestant Christian wife. I guess there were things we had always wanted to share and finally did before that morning flight. We shared an emotional and tearful hug, we wished eachother all the best, and we said our goodbyes until the next time. I felt such love for him at that moment, I was completely and uterrly distressed. Somewhere deep within me, I was frightened I might never see him again.

It was the last time I ever heard from him.

[Herman Blaydoe]

They're Christians. Christian is Christian--that's what I see. What are you all doing letting this happen?

When asked a similar question, I answered by mentioning to my Moslem interluctor about Sunni, Shia, Sufi, and Baha'i divisions in Islam, as well as the Wahabi movement. Islam is Islam, right? He backed off after that. Most of his arguments became moot.

[Alex Haig]

I have read this thread with interest. On a personal level, I find it difficult to speak about the Faith because even the most eloquent will fail to express Christianity if he does not have Christ-like (i.e. humble) love.

Christianity is different from everything else; it is not a philosophy to be distilled into four sentances or five minutes but the revelation of the eternal God to man: God with us (Emmanuel).

The question remains what to do if this situation comes up. The problem here is we often feel everyone should be able to explain the Faith in detail where perhaps more appropriate would be to use the great mission phrase: come and see.

Asking your prayers

Alex

[Nina]

perhaps more appropriate would be to use the great mission phrase: come and see.


This is a great idea, unless some women from the church start saying to your friends: "You should not wear pants in the church! Do not chew gum! Do not keep your hands in the pocket!" It has happened when I brought my (secular) Muslim friends at church. After this incident they did not dare come again. I tried to excuse those women and tell my friends that there are some rules for us in church -like their shoe removal in the mosque etc.- and that the women probably assumed them to be Christian. However the damage proved to be irreparable. But who knows maybe God works through His mysterious ways and brings them to Christianity. I still hope...

[Michael Stickles]

Protestant simply refuse to accept that the Church is a vital entity--the actual bride of Christ--and not just a "fellowship" (like the Elks club) of like-minded folks.

The Church is not necessary in the Protestant mindset, only individual belief is and it hardly matters how one comes by his belief.

I would disagree, at least in terms of the Protestantism I've been part of. The capital-C Church is considered a vital entity and the bride of Christ, but it is not considered a currently incarnate entity. What would draw a blank stare (or quick denial) is the concept that the capital-C Church can be identified with any particular small-c church or denominational collection thereof.

In the circles I've been in, Protestant inclusivity (it's not really the same as what is normally meant by "ecumenism") is an attempt to come to terms with the experience of seeing God at work not just in one's own congregation or denomination, but also in others which have some differences in doctrine and practice. Tie that in with the belief that to be saved is to necessarily be part of the capital-C Church, and you can see why they cannot easily accept the idea that any one visible group is "the Church". Instead, the capital-C Church is thought of as the "invisible union of all believers," with an emphasis on all.

This is why, if a Protestant hears an Orthodox call the Orthodox Church the "One True Church" or something similar, it is usually treated as if the Orthodox had said "all non-Orthodox are going to hell". By Protestant ecclesiology, the phrases are virtually synonymous. That's why I don't use that phraseology when trying to discuss Orthodoxy with Protestant friends; it puts up an unnecessary barrier that takes a lot of time and effort to work past. Protestants and Orthodox use the same words in very different ways; explanation needs to involve translation to be effective.

Not that I've come up with a really good way yet to explain Orthodoxy that's readily understandable to Protestants; I'm not totally bilingual in Protestantism and Orthodoxy yet, so translation is difficult. But Celinda and I will be getting plenty of practice over the next couple of weeks. We've let our pastor and friends know that we're leaving our Baptist congregation and moving to the local Orthodox parish starting Sept. 16, and a number of people want to get together with us to understand why we're moving (please keep us in prayer -- we want to be sensitive yet truthful and accurate).

In Christ,
Mike

[Paul Cowan]

We've let our pastor and friends know that we're leaving our Baptist congregation and moving to the local Orthodox parish starting Sept. 16, and a number of people want to get together with us to understand why we're moving (please keep us in prayer -- we want to be sensitive yet truthful and accurate).


I know the Baptist church you are leaving will be losing 2 great luminaries. It will be very difficult for them. But as respected as you and Celinda are here your arguments which are sure to come from your current congregation may just plant the seed to bring more to the True Faith.

Those of us on this side who have read your posts over the last several months are surely wondering, "what the heck took you so long?" ;)

Are you able to tell us which Parish and jurisdiction you have chosen? You may find this blog (http://saintjameskids.blogspot.com/) of interest to you. It is the continuing story of my associate priest's conversion from Baptist missionary to Orthodoxy.

Paul

[Michael Stickles]

Those of us on this side who have read your posts over the last several months are surely wondering, "what the heck took you so long?" ;)

Are you able to tell us which Parish and jurisdiction you have chosen? You may find this blog (http://saintjameskids.blogspot.com/) of interest to you. It is the continuing story of my associate priest's conversion from Baptist missionary to Orthodoxy.

Thanks, that blog does look interesting. We'll be attending the Holy Trinity Orthodox Church (OCA) in State College, PA.

What took so long was me -- Celinda was ready to move some time ago, and I've been testing her patience :-). Actually, I just didn't want to trust my own judgement on something this big, and had been praying for guidance on whether to move or not. It just took a while before I "heard" it.

I think of explaining our move to our Baptist friends, then look at the thread title -- "Explain the faith in 4 sentences" -- and all I can do is quote Bill Cosby's Noah: "Riiiiiigght!!".

In Christ,
Mike

[Antonios]

But Celinda and I will be getting plenty of practice over the next couple of weeks. We've let our pastor and friends know that we're leaving our Baptist congregation and moving to the local Orthodox parish starting Sept. 16, and a number of people want to get together with us to understand why we're moving (please keep us in prayer -- we want to be sensitive yet truthful and accurate).


Glory to God!! This is tremendous news!! God bless the both of you!! Indeed, He already has!

[Mourad Mankarios]

Hi Karen,

From my personal experience and discussions, Muslims have extreme difficulty understanding and coming to terms with certain doctrines of the church. First and foremost and like many other people, even Orthodox Christians, this would be the concept of the Holy Trinity. Muslim people often see Christians through this as polytheists and it cuts at the heart of Islamic faith who constantly proclaim as the first article of their faith their belief in a single and monist understanding of God. Secondly, they cannot fathom the incarnation, to them it is below the dignity of God to experience all of the natural processes of a human being such as visiting the lavatory, etc. Also they cannot understand the crucifixion and why God or Jesus would have to die. Makes for some really difficult explaining to do. If you think about it Muhammad who founded the Islamic faith himself founded it during a time of many Christian heresies, schisms, conflict, confusion and debates over very complex issues. The easiest think for him to do was to get rid of the Trinity and return to a monist Jewish understanding of God and to remove the concept of the incarnation and reduce Christ to an ordinary man hence that removes any need for the first few ecumenical councils up to his tiime.

[Andreas Moran]

Yet Muslims believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus. (As a judge of the Court of Appeal commented during the blasphemy case concerning Salmon Rushdie some years ago, 'that's more than some Anglican bishops believe'.) They honour 'Mariam' more than many Christians do. The trinity made sense to me when Bishop Eirenaios explained to me that God is love and so cannot be one Person else that love would be self-regarding. God exists in a trinity of Persons so that love is dynamic and always outward going. I don't know if Muslims think God is love.

I have heard that successful mission work starts by finding out first what the 'target audience' believes and finding common ground with them. Then it builds from that foundation. I once read of a missionary in America explaining to some chief that the Great Spirit is God the Father. The chief said, 'if you call Him Father and I call Him Father, that must mean we are brothers'. 'Exactly', said the missionary. A colleague of mine is doing a PhD on the customs and beliefs of native Canadians (and those in Alaska), and tells me that's why the Russian missionaries were successful to the extent that they regard Orthodoxy as their native faith. Those members in Canada and Alaska will be able to say if this is so.

[Mourad Mankarios]

Yet Muslims believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus. (As a judge of the Court of Appeal commented during the blasphemy case concerning Salmon Rushdie some years ago, 'that's more than some Anglican bishops believe'.) They honour 'Mariam' more than many Christians do. The trinity made sense to me when Bishop Eirenaios explained to me that God is love and so cannot be one Person else that love would be self-regarding. God exists in a trinity of Persons so that love is dynamic and always outward going. I don't know if Muslims think God is love.


I think replying with such a response could leave you with a very complex metaphysical concept to delineate, ie What is a Person/Hypostasis? How are they different? How do they make one God? How can they be three and one? What is essence and energy?

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Dear Andreas,


I have heard that successful mission work starts by finding out first what the 'target audience' believes and finding common ground with them. Then it builds from that foundation.

That was certainly the approach of the early Christian evangelists and apologists.

Having had many discussions with Muslims, a couple of whom are now Christian, I would take heed to the caution that sounds through Mourad's response. You want to avoid using technical terms which they are generally not familiar with, when you can, particularly when there exist other favourable avenues to pursue.

When concerned with the inner being of God, I tend to begin discussion on the notion of Christ as God's Word which Muslims accept upon the testimony of the Qur'an. If they are Sunni Muslim, this subject will make for a most interesting discussion, especially in light of the historical theological debate over whether God's Word is created or uncreated. The Sunni's ultimately adopted the latter position, but their main focus was on the Qur'an (in contrast to Christianity, Islam has a "and the Word became text" kind of philosophy) rather than on the implications for the nature of Christ.

Another commonality I tend to pursue discussion of is the idea of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as God's revelation. Muslims generally have varied and inconsistent opinions on the extent to which the Scriptures, in the state that they existed in Muhammed's day (which are hence today's Scriptures), were divinely inspired, if at all, and the Qur'an itself appears somewhat inconsistent on the matter. The apparent inconsistency of the Qur'an on the matter is not absolutely irreconcilable, and I find it easier and more plausible to argue a reconciliation in favour of the position that the Scriptures were divinely inspired. From there I attempt to promote the idea that whether the Trinity conceptually makes sense to them or not, it something they should accept upon the authority of divine revelation. Ofcourse, when dealing with interpreting the Scriptures, one is practically forced into a Sola-Scriptura framework, but that shouldn't pose much of a problem given that the Scriptural testimony is sufficient in clearly expounding central tenets of the Christian Faith, such as the truth of Christ's Divinity. If they are genuine in their dialogue with you, they should have no problem seeing this.

In IC XC
Athanasius

[Athanasius Abdullah]

Dear Andreas,


I have heard that successful mission work starts by finding out first what the 'target audience' believes and finding common ground with them. Then it builds from that foundation.

In support of my above response to this comment of yours I offer a most pertinent excerpt from St Clement of Alexandria's Stromateis:


To those who ask for the wisdom which is in us, we must present what is familiar to them so that, as easily as possible, through their own ideas, they may reasonably arrive at belief in the truth (5.3.18).

In IC XC
Athanasius

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I have heard that successful mission work starts by finding out first what the 'target audience' believes and finding common ground with them. Then it builds from that foundation. I once read of a missionary in America explaining to some chief that the Great Spirit is God the Father. The chief said, 'if you call Him Father and I call Him Father, that must mean we are brothers'. 'Exactly', said the missionary. A colleague of mine is doing a PhD on the customs and beliefs of native Canadians (and those in Alaska), and tells me that's why the Russian missionaries were successful to the extent that they regard Orthodoxy as their native faith. Those members in Canada and Alaska will be able to say if this is so.

Some wonder if Orthodox missionaries got as far inland as what is today the Yukon territory of Canada. But there is no known trace of such work if it occurred. Thus Orthodoxy is found today in Alaska only.

From what I have read St Innocent was very concerned that missionary work be done among the native people through appealing to certain aspects of their own culture that could dove-tail with Orthodoxy.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mourad Mankarios]

With regards to the Trinity, I would probably focus more on the complex and mysterious nature of God which transcends human understanding while at the same time affirming the oneness of God.

With the whole of Christianity and Orthodoxy in general I would say don't be tempted to use your head so much but rather use your heart. Speak from your heart, reflect on the beauty of your faith and why you are moved to believe, how it has affected yourself and those around you. Share this beauty and the treasure you yourself have unlocked within scripture, within your heart, with your own personal contemplation and by the grace of God.

Perhaps those same things which have moved you will also move others. Be open, honest, genuine and sincere rather than preachy, judgmental or critical.

[Shawn Lazar]

I think this is a much more succint way of presenting the gospel in four sentences:

(1) "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

(2) "the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23)

(3) "For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

(4) "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

-Shawn

[Andreas Moran]

In relation to people generally, this assumes a person has a sense of sin. Many people do not have a sense of sin, so how do you persuade them that they need saving? Conduct that not many years ago was generally regarded as sinful (e.g. 'living in sin') is now normal and widely accepted. People regard their private lives as none of God's business. If they do no harm to others they are not sinful.

[Shawn Lazar]

Dear Andreas,

Well, it does and it doesn't assume people have a sense of sin. In one sense, I've never met anyone who would claim to be 'perfect', ie: they will admit to doing wrong. Whether a lie, or lust, or anger, it doesn't matter, and it isn't very difficult to get someone to admit to being a sinner in that sense. God seldom leaves a person without any witness.

But on the other hand, no, I don't think you need to assume whether someone has a sense of sin or not. The subjective state of the person hearing the Gospel message is practically moot, first because we must assume their hearts are hardened towards God, and because it is the Spirit's work to convict a person's heart, not ours. By bringing a sinner to the Word of God, we can rely on God's own promise that:

"my word...that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11)

The power to convict lies in God's hands, and the means to convict, says God, is his Word. Or as St. Paul wrote to the Romans:

"But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they do hear without someone preaching?... So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." (Romans 10:14, 17)

What we must all do, as living witnesses to the living God is to fearlessly share this word with those who have not heard the gospel, and trust God to water and grow the seeds that have been planted.

[Mourad Mankarios]

I think this is a much more succint way of presenting the gospel in four sentences:

(1) "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

(2) "the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23)

(3) "For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

(4) "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

-Shawn

Dear Shawn,

While your presentation here is accurate I find it somewhat problematic for a variety of reasons. First of all it starts off on a negative rather than a positive reflection of the faith, I would rather build an understanding of the faith on positive grounds rather than out of fear, guilt and shame. Secondly, it uses language which presupposes an understanding of so many complex and multidimensional concepts, these include sin, death, debt, salvation, etc. Thirdly, it ignores the mystical aspect of the faith, so integral to Orthodoxy. Fourthly, it gives no place to the church and the community of believers. Fifthly, it can so easily be identified and confused with the Protestant mindset and belief.

[Nina]

Dear Shawn,



(3) "For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)When I have been in the midst of Muslim people (even if some were secular) and when they learned that I am a Christian they would come up to me with a smile and tell me: "Are you a Christian? Why do Christians say that God has a Son? This is so sacrilegious!"

The quote above that you suggest is not digestible for them when you meet for the first time. And for some it is not digestible at all.

[Nina]

Many people do not have a sense of sin, so how do you persuade them that they need saving?

Mention what God enlightens you to mention during your discussion and most of all pray for them. This love and kind of heartfelt prayer attracts the grace of God not only for them, but also for you. Also remember that they are in the stage of being still children and a saint has said "talk more to God about children, than to children about God." When they mature a bit you can elaborate more about faith and God.

[Mary]

Dear Andreas,

Well, it does and it doesn't assume people have a sense of sin. In one sense, I've never met anyone who would claim to be 'perfect', ie: they will admit to doing wrong. Whether a lie, or lust, or anger, it doesn't matter, and it isn't very difficult to get someone to admit to being a sinner in that sense. God seldom leaves a person without any witness.

In spite of the fact that most people won't claim to be perfect, they generally see themselves as loveable. To tell them that they are deserving of death, even if it is the truth, is a good way of hardening their hearts further, and even hurting and wounding them more. And That is not the way God himself approaches us. He doesn't care how big a sinner I am, He is merciful, and He loves me, and He is the one who reaches out to me first - with love, not with judgement. (We love Him, because He loved us first...)

It isn't the Law that draws us to God it is His Love. I don't know about you, but I'm not capable of having a loving relationship with someone who's judging me. But my Father loves me (and so does His Body the Church!). He doesn't 'persecute' me and He's not intent on convicting me of my sin. I am convicted of my own sinfulness when I am aware of His love. It is His unrelenting Love that breaks through the hardness of my heart. When I am convicted of my sin, I do not feel guilt or shame, I feel His Love, touching the dead parts of me and bringing me to life. It's after He has healed me, that I realize how great my sinfulness was, because that's when I can compare it with His Love. And it feels so good to be healed, that I keep going back for more and more and more! The more He heals me, the more I see the true depth of my sin...

As a Protestant, I had a LOT of trouble putting together God's Justice and His Love. How can a God who demands payment for sin, also be so loving? Sin isn't a crime that deserves death. It's a disease that leads to death. God isn't angry that we are sick. He is sad. He wants to heal us, but He won't until we let Him. We will die, unless we let Him heal us.

The world is tired and weary. People are sad and lonely. They need a God who can give them rest. They need to be loved, not judged.

Forgive me. I'm getting off my soapbox.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Bogdan]

Dear All,

I have been looking for a place to ask this question and this thread seemed to be it. I have a friend who is asking me for an example of someone converting to Orthodoxy, but who was not a very religious person beforehand. I unfortunately only have a couple books on converts, and most of them were pastors/ministers before finding Orthodoxy.

Is there a simple book I can reccomend from a layperson's perspective?

Thanks in advance,

~Bogdan

[Michael Stickles]

We seem to have moved from the more academic exercise of explaining the faith to the more personal engagement of introducing someone to the faith (which is cool). Personally, I've found specific formulas of words to be less important in the latter case.

There is a saying I like which is usually attributed to the Roman Catholic Saint, Francis of Assisi. It goes something like: "Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words." Or, as the line from the song says, "I'd rather see a sermon than hear one anyday." The first introduction others get to our faith comes well before we open our mouths to talk about it.

In Christ,
Mike

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear All,

I have been looking for a place to ask this question and this thread seemed to be it. I have a friend who is asking me for an example of someone converting to Orthodoxy, but who was not a very religious person beforehand. I unfortunately only have a couple books on converts, and most of them were pastors/ministers before finding Orthodoxy.

Is there a simple book I can reccomend from a layperson's perspective?

Thanks in advance,

~Bogdan

Perhaps The Way of the Ascetics by Tito Coliander.

But we should also have the confidence though prayer to give to others searching for the Faith from what is in our hearts.

Remember that when someone goes along the path from A to C within the Church we often do not know where B lies. It can be in a quite different place than we think at first.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

I wasn't religious at all before I became Orthodox. I read Met. Kallistos's two books which were helpful, but mostly I learned from people (though one of those was Bishop Eirenaios) and just going to church. On actually becoming Orthodox, I was told to beware of the 'new car syndrome' - you know, at first you cherish it and look after it, clean it every day, and put it in the garage every night. As time goes by, you slacken until the car is filthy, scratched (not always your fault) and never goes in the garage . . .

[Father David Moser]

I think that it would be extraordinarily difficult - probably even impossible to "explain Christianity in 4 (generic) sentences" that apply to all people in all places since "Christianity" is Life in Christ. Because Christianity is life, it must be lived, not explained - and life is not something that can be reduced to a generic "blurb" for everyone. Life is something personal - a personal encounter with Christ and thus has an infinite array of presentations. For this reason I find that I am unable to use the same catechetical approach more than once (I have a general checklist for myself so that I make sure I "cover the bases", but no "curriculum" or "plan" or "standard outline")

OTOH, because Christianity is a relationship with Christ I can explain it in two words: "Know Christ" or to quote our Lord, "Follow me" and if you want more detail, then the words of Christ Himself also might suffice "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me." What more can be said? After this one must simply live the Life.

Fr David Moser

[Shawn Lazar]

While we're on the topic of introducing the gospel, or summarizing Christianity to someone, I have a curiosity question... has anyone here ever led someone to Christ (with God's help, of course)? I don't mean convert someone from one denomination to Orthodoxy. But lead someone from unbelief to belief in Christ?

-Shawn

[Herman Blaydoe]

That is what the Holy Spirit does, not us. But yes, I have been involved in the process for more than one person, as well as several conversions.

Do you have a specific question?

[Karen Hammer]

While we're on the topic of introducing the gospel, or summarizing Christianity to someone, I have a curiosity question... has anyone here ever led someone to Christ (with God's help, of course)? I don't mean convert someone from one denomination to Orthodoxy. But lead someone from unbelief to belief in Christ?

-Shawn

I have. A family member, who still has a long way to go, as do I.

Before you laugh at my one conversion, keep in mind that there was a now famous English missionary (William Carey) who labored all his life in India without a single convert. But he translated the Bible into Hindi, I believe, which helped other missionaries to convert many Indians.

Total conversion to Christianity is a lifelong process. You don't just "walk the aisle" and think you've figured it out and now you can add Bible verses to your repetoire of debating skills. There's a lot more to it than just assenting to a new paradigm--it has to be lived. You have to learn how to worship with both head and heart, how to weep for your sins, how to commune with God.

In the past, I have also distributed Christian materials to strangers, spoke with them, etc.--but what result those efforts had, I don't know. Those efforts seem now to have been doing things the easy way--the way that risked no real involvement with the person I "witnessed" to. There were times I had the opportunity to speak more serious with others about Christ, but though I may have sowed a seed, I have not seen the reaping. Maybe someone else did.

[Bogdan]

Thank you father for your recommendation, another book to add to my growing list...can't just be handing things to people without reading them myself...sigh... ;)

I do understand your point, and as others have pointed out recently, the best way to reach someone is personally. I think perhaps we are going on a tangent with these points though.

The original exercise, as I have read it, was to WRITE an explanation. Not use your personal voice, tone, conviction to CONVEY an explanation. These are VERY different forms of communication. While I do agree that a majority of missionary work is done in person, we should not take away the power of handing someone a book (i.e. bible). While over the years this approach has erroded connection to the church, if we as Orthodox make ourselves available and willing to help those we hand books to, I personally feel we would combine the Good of protestant approaches, with the Right of Orthodoxy.

In Christ,
~Bogdan

[Nina]

While we're on the topic of introducing the gospel, or summarizing Christianity to someone, I have a curiosity question... has anyone here ever led someone to Christ (with God's help, of course)? I don't mean convert someone from one denomination to Orthodoxy. But lead someone from unbelief to belief in Christ?
-Shawn

My God-son was born into a Muslim family.... however I have no impact on that child being baptized. His baptism is the work of the Holy Spirit, literally, because my mom told the mother of that child to pray for a so-much-anticipated-child when they kneeled during Liturgy when the priest invokes the Holy Spirit for the changing of the Holy Gifts. This encouragement from my mother with assuring words that many prayers during those moments are lifted immediately to the Throne of God, prompted the promise of the mother of my God-son that if she will have a baby, she will baptize him Christian. Both mothers were crying and praying during that moment and the mother of my God-son remained kneeled and my mom could not lift her up even when all were standing.

I remember both our mothers (whenever I was present) talking about Christ, God and religion in general. They became friends; and the mother of my God-son was extremely sad because she and her husband did not have children at all. My mother was very supportive.

The baby was born 9 months exactly after that heartfelt prayer during the invocation of the Holy Spirit. When the baby was born the parents sent money for buying candles and lighting them in their name in our church. Months passed by, but the baby was not baptized because of all the distraction that comes in such cases.

Then Panagia appeared in a dream to the mother of my God-son and admonished her when the baby was several months old, because she was not keeping the promise to baptize the baby. The dream was like this: the baby was missing and the mother started running and flying everywhere looking for him: all over the world. She could not find him. She goes to the mosque (both parents were secular Muslim), and many other places of worship and those were empty and there was no baby there.

At the end and very distressed she remembers and goes to the Orthodox church where she had prayed for the baby. When she stood in the middle of the church, Theotokos came out of the icon in the Iconostasis; and instead of holding baby Jesus, she was holding the baby of the lady.

Theotokos was dressed in black and while holding the baby and without talking went to the Holy Altar and when the mother of the baby started supplicating her to give the baby back, Theotokos said: "You promised me this child [I guess because the church where my mom used to take the mother of the baby was the church of the Holy Annunciation, thus dedicated to the Virgin Mary]. Why do not you baptize him? If you do not baptize this child, he will be taken from you!" at that moment the mother terrified started saying "Please, please I supplicate you! I will baptize him as I promised! Please do not take him from me!" So Panagia came out of the Holy Altar and handed the baby to the mother saying: "Remember this! Also look at the corner and take his shoes with you because he will need them to wear." The mother found the shoes at the corner where she was told and woke up.

This dream was Saturday night. On Sunday morning the parents and the baby went to the Orthodox church and the parents were very shaken. They talked to my mother and a priest and they could not wait to baptize the baby. Because of some conflict with planning I had the honor to be the God-mother. I felt bad that my mom could not though because she did all the work and I was just a spectator when she evangelized the mother of my God-son. Glory be to God!

Any other story, I have, pales in comparison.

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Nina,

What an extraordinary story! It's the kind of thing you read in a book and go, 'yeah'. But this is a living account known to you! I wonder why the parents did not become Orthodox?

Karen makes a point regarding conversion as a life-long process. I feel I'm always in the process of becoming a Christian. A Christian is one who, as Fr David says, follows Christ. Of course, I am a member of the Church and an ordained Reader in it. But do I follow Christ? Do I show my love for Him by following His commandments? No. The Lord is 'awaiting my conversion' as the prayer of St Basil says (the prayer before Holy Communion).

[Herman Blaydoe]

Tying this thread to another on the solitary life, I have to wonder, how many people did St. Mary of Eqypt convert? None while she was alive, and yet, the account her life--read every Great Lent--has inspired millions down through the ages. Who knows what her prayers have accomplished in the lives of those she once knew and in the lives of us today as she stands in the presence of God?

Christianity is not a Ponzi (or pyramid) scheme, we are not graded on how many people we "put in the pews". We ARE asked to give a good account of the talents we have been given. We are told to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned, help and love our neighbors. We live to become like Christ, not to recruit. Even Christ Himself was spurnned by many. The beautiful paradox is that by saving ourselves, we save others. It is not a function of who our words convince, but how our actions convict. We are not all REQUIRED to preach on street corners, but we should all be ready to defend the hope that is in us when challenged.

Walking the walk is harder and louder than talking the talk. Make sure your actions match your words, because people are more aware of the contradictions than you may realize.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

[Maria Murray]

Nina, that was a great personal story. Perhaps there should be a thread for personal stories such as that.

Shawn, it would be very exciting for one to think they 'brought' someone to Christ, but I wonder how things like that would affect our pride, well, for someone like me it probably wouldn't be good... I can't remember who it was that said that sometimes God hides our spiritual accomplishments from us to spare us from the temptation of pride. When I think about these things, I try to keep in mind what St. Seraphim of Sarov said "Aquire the Holy Spirit and thousands around you will be saved." When I first read that, I had a hard time understanding it, but it makes more and more sense as time goes by.

Maria

[Michael Stickles]

I can think of two people who remember me as instrumental in bringing them to faith in Christ, and all I remember about my part was being tongue-tied, confused, and unable to put a coherent thought together while talking to the one and praying with the other. Both times I walked away thinking "I really messed up that opportunity." Didn't find out about the effect in their lives until later.

On the other hand, the times I really felt like I had the right words for the person, that things "clicked" -- if fruit came from those times, I never saw it.

I think it's often like Maria said -- "sometimes God hides our spiritual accomplishments from us to spare us from the temptation of pride". He may set us to plant, to water, or to harvest, but wants us always to remember that He is the One who makes things grow (1 Corinthians 3:5-8).

In Christ,
Mike

[Nina]

Dear Nina,
What an extraordinary story! It's the kind of thing you read in a book and go, 'yeah'. But this is a living account known to you! I wonder why the parents did not become Orthodox?

Dear Andreas,

The mother of my God-son was very ready also to become Orthodox, and she was pulling the husband on that direction. Also she was preparing her parents and her siblings and family, sharing with all what had happened to her through Christ, Panagia and the Orthodox church. However the family of the husband (his sisters, exactly, who were also secular muslims) started a "guilt-campaign" against them as betrayers of the faith (Islam) of their forefathers.

Her sisters in law, also ridiculed the mother of my God-son (before the miracle took place) when she took an icon at her home because my mother gave her a big icon of Panagia and baby Christ. If you want another story here it goes:

Because of the ridicule, the mother (who had no child at that moment, nor pregnancy yet) gave in and took the icon from the wall and placed it on the floor behind the dresser, hiding it so her sisters in law would not see it and would stop harassing her.

The sisters in law, in addition to the pressure and ridicule, because she was attracted to Christianity, did ridicule her also about not having children. They constantly harassed her and called her names such as 'barren' etc. Exactly like in a story out of OT, and we all were so moved from that, and tried to show her much love during those very tempting times.

So, when she hid the icon she started not being able to sleep at night and in addition to a lot of angst she started hearing terrifying voices during the night, in addition to having great restlessness etc. She would wake up her husband and he would not hear, or feel anything.

After some days - and after the words of the sisters in law who told her that she felt like that and could not sleep because she brought the icon (which they called it with a sacrilegious name) in her home - she came to my parents' place and was crying and described to my mother what was happening at night.

My mother asked her immediately: "Where did you place the icon?" And the mother of my God-son explained that after the ridicule and all the pressure she hid the icon behind the dresser, on the floor area. My mother told her: "Go and take the icon out of there immediately! Place it somewhere inconspicuous, however a worthy place for the icon to stay. Pray in front of it and ask forgiveness. However, do not be afraid because you will be calm at night." And she did and all was normal like before. She found peace at night, thank God! And she continued to come and talk with my mother about Christ, Panagia etc. and eventually went to church and witnessed the miracle, the conceiving and birth of my God-son.




Karen makes a point regarding conversion as a life-long process. I feel I'm always in the process of becoming a Christian. A Christian is one who, as Fr David says, follows Christ. Of course, I am a member of the Church and an ordained Reader in it. But do I follow Christ? Do I show my love for Him by following His commandments? No. The Lord is 'awaiting my conversion' as the prayer of St Basil says (the prayer before Holy Communion).I agree with this completely. This is what the Holy Fathers tell us always. Actually I wanted to write the same in my previous post, that all I am converting time and again from unbelief, is myself. However I changed my mind at the last moment.

[Maria Murray]

Alright, Mike's post brought something to memory, so I'm going to go ahead and boast.;)
One of my friends has recently made a big impact in my spiritual life through her love, words of wisdom and encouragement and giving me many great spiritual books to read. I always look up to her because of her great love for Christ and His commandments. One day I finally asked her, tell me how did you find faith in Christ? She looked surprised that I asked her this. She said, "well don't you remember when we were 15 I heard you say the Lord's prayer? This had a great effect on me and eventually myself and my family were all baptised." I couldn't remember that because at 15 I didn't even go to church and still don't know how this could affect anyone, but I guess God works in mysterios ways.

This realization that everything we do can have many consequences not only for us but for others that we may never even know about gives me a serious feeling of responsibility for the choices I make. I think everyone here agrees that doing is more important than saying, but what DO you say when someone asks you?! I don't think I could explain the faith in 4 sentences.

[Nina]

Alright, Mike's post brought something to memory, so I'm going to go ahead and boast.;)
One of my friends has recently made a big impact in my spiritual life through her love, words of wisdom and encouragement and giving me many great spiritual books to read. I always look up to her because of her great love for Christ and His commandments. One day I finally asked her, tell me how did you find faith in Christ? She looked surprised that I asked her this. She said, "well don't you remember when we were 15 I heard you say the Lord's prayer? This had a great effect on me and eventually myself and my family were all baptised." I couldn't remember that because at 15 I didn't even go to church and still don't know how this could affect anyone, but I guess God works in mysterios ways.

This realization that everything we do can have many consequences not only for us but for others that we may never even know about gives me a serious feeling of responsibility for the choices I make. I think everyone here agrees that doing is more important than saying, but what DO you say when someone asks you?! I don't think I could explain the faith in 4 sentences.

I agree with you Maria and Herman and Mike before.

It is an immense responsibility to live in this world and be a worthy Christian. I fail in all those things. However God works in mysterious ways with all of us.

Another thing that I can not resist from sharing with Shawn is: there is someone here (a member) that I know of, who brought his mother from unbelief, to God. Because of him, his mother got baptized Orthodox. But since he does not speak in this thread (and much in general), I will not say his name. This also is a great miracle! A son, bringing his mother, from unbelief, to Christ. Glory be to God!

Miracles like this surround us everywhere. God allows them to aid us in our struggle. But as an Orthodox Saint has said: "Seek not a sign, but health of the soul."

[Andreas Moran]

Bishop Eirenaios said, 'If we do some good, let us remember that it is the Holy Spirit acting through us. We must say, I am an unworthy servant - I have only done my duty'.

[Karen Hammer]

The young muslim student told me that she got an "A" on her paper explaining Christianity. She said she used what I had told her. Her instructor marked on her paper "good job".

I then mentioned to her about the Nicene creed. Had the instructor told her about that yet? No, she said. I told her to look it up--it defines the tenets of Christian faith in a nutshell.

[Bogdan]

karen,

I do not know if you are in a position to ask this, but I, if not most, would be greatly interested to find out what she actually wrote on the paper??

If you could find this out, I would be greatful :)

[Shawn Lazar]

Hi Nina,

I enjoyed your story, but did the muslim family you mentioned convert to Christianity? Or did they just baptize their child?

-Shawn

[Mary]

Shawn, Baptism Saves. That child is a part of the church. And he'll be converting his entire life as do the rest of us. Hopefully, his mother will be encouraged to join the journey too. And of course, his father and his entire family! =)

Nina, your story reminds me of one I heard while I was in India. This was the first time I'd actually spent time with all the old folks and talked to them. My aunt Ivy - wife of my Mom's oldest brother - was telling me about the birth of her third child - Jack. (that's what we call him, he has several other proper, official names...) Anyway, Jack was supposed to be back home in the mountains, but he had an accident and was sitting there with his foot all stapled and pinned and bandaged.

When she had been pregnant with him, she said, my uncle was without a job, and they had absolutely, NO money coming into the house. My grandfather was ill, and as the oldest daughter-in-law, she was left with most of the responsibility of caring for him. Her own family wasn't near enough to be of any help to her either, and she got really scared. The baby also, was really big, and people told her she was carrying twins. Anyway, she told me: "I was really desparate and didn't know who to turn to for help. For some reason, the only one I could think of was the Mother of God! So I asked her to help me and I promised her she could have my child if she would help me deliver him(or her) safely."

Jack was the only boy born that day, so everyone in the hospital knew of his birth. He was also really, really big, and my aunt who is less than 5 feet tall, should've died giving birth to him, but she was totally fine. When she got home, she told my uncle that she really had to take some kind of an offering for the Mother of God because her prayers had been heard. My family are some kind of Indian Anglican/lutheran, whatever. There's an RC church somewhere in south India, dedicated to the Theotokos, and many pilgrims go there each year, Christians, Muslims and Hindus. So they went there.

They had no money and asked around as to what would be appropriate to take or give and they were told that people shaved off all their hair as a token of thanksgiving. So, they shaved the hair off of all three of their children. When they came home, they were verbally abused for turning heretical.... but that's another story.

Anyway - Jack had a multitude of miracles to tell of, all of which I can't recount here, it will take afew hours. But the gist of it was, God pursued him and made sure the promises were kept. He never seems to have any success in life, until he gives up searching for success and turns to God whole-heartedly, willing to serve without reward! He was also the only one who didn't think I'd gone nuts when I told him I was orthodox. I wonder what God has in store for him! =)

IN Christ,
Mary.

[Antonios]

Hi Nina,

I enjoyed your story, but did the muslim family you mentioned convert to Christianity? Or did they just baptize their child?

-Shawn


I would prostrate myselves in front of them if they did. It is true, to apostasize from Islam and convert to Christianity, is what saints do today. Just baptizing their only child in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit puts my faith to shame. They will surely enter the Kingdom of God before me.

[Shawn Lazar]

Mary and Antonios,

I was just wondering if the family baptized the child out of superstition, which seems to run rampant in Islam, especially among Persians. To baptize the child in the name of the Trinity, and then to raise it up Muslim, or to refuse to convert to Christianity themselves even after such a clear vision would be the height of impiety and rebellion against God, not obedience.

But in any case, you certainly can't believe that this child is saved simply for having been baptized, right? If that were true, the Muslim world could be saved by a legion of Orthodox priests armed with water pistols. Forgive the impious image, but that is the logic of the position, is it not?

And yet the Word says, "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom 10:9)

[Shawn Lazar]

Regarding the issue above, I just found this quote from Fr. Jordan Bajis of Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in Fort Collins, Colorado, that I found to be pertinent: "No parents should be allowed to baptize their infant if they themselves have not made an expressed commitment to serve Jesus Christ and raise their child in accordance with God's Word."

[Antonios]

But in any case, you certainly can't believe that this child is saved simply for having been baptized, right?

I can only say with certainty that it is God's Will who is saved and who isn't, and that He has not shared that list with me.

[Karen Hammer]

Infant baptism can be looked upon as similar to the Jewish circumcism. In Jewish circumcism, when an infant is circumcised he is then admitted into the community. But the circumcism carries with it the admonition to the parents to raise him as a Jew. I believe the Prophet Isaiah rebuked those Jews who did not holy lives as having not lived up to their circumcism. St. Paul spoke of the circumcism of the heart.

Infant baptism, just like adult baptism, admits the person into the Church. It will be up to that person to live out the implication of his baptism. One can aposticize, like Joseph Stalin, who was a horrible apostate. Just like when a Baptists gets dunked once (Orthodox get dunk 3 times), the baptized person is still expected to live out the implications of his baptism.

As to those muslim parents who had their child baptised in an Orthodox ceremony, it's possible they were not believers and they should be believers. But in the ceremony itself, the parents and godparents must give a profession of faith to assure the Church that the chiild would be raised Christian. Did these muslims just mumble the words without any belief? It's possible--no one can judge their hearts but God. But they gave a profession of faith--the priest did not let that part slide by.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Baptism isn't magic, but it is a conduit of Grace and Power. He, who had no "need" for baptism, submitted to it to identify with us, so we, who DO need it, are baptized to identify with Him. We do it because we are commanded to do so by Christ Himself. It is only PART of a life lived in Christ, and apart from the rest, would seem of limited value without everything else. It all fits together in the FULLNESS of the Christ-centered life of the Church. But there is SOMETHING there, otherwise why did our Lord command us to do it? It is a mystery. As St. Leo the Great says, "He who was visible has now passed into the sacraments." Baptism is one of the greatest sacraments.

[Nina]

Hi Nina,

I enjoyed your story, but did the muslim family you mentioned convert to Christianity? Or did they just baptize their child?

-Shawn

Oh, you did not read the second part of the story? The problem with the sisters in law?

In addition, my mother is not there... because of her cancer. She also had to be away for her chemotherapy etc. and passed away last year.

However, I would not worry about that family (but of course pray!): besides having a blessing at home through the baptized and Orthodox and miracle son, they have God on their side since obviously He wants their salvation. God is patient and so should be we. Although it might seem like the happening of one day, that story took years. And my mother did not pressure them into knowing Christ. She was asked about Christ and her faith. Also she was always there to share their pain they had for not having any children.

What happened with that family, I would not call it a superstition. They did not know they would get a baby by talking and knowing about Christ. They were drawn to Christ. Also responding to a dream as plain and to the point as that, which brought at least a soul in the Church (and maybe more God willing!), is not what we call 'following a superstition', but, keeping the promise they made to God. Saint Constantine the Great did not follow a superstition by obeying God (and by the way he was baptized later in life).

They are very wonderful people, thank God! It would be easy for us born in Christian families, to judge them. But the obedience I have seen at these parents, and their fervency for complying with all the Church teaches and asks in such cases, was more than I have witnessed in many Christians, starting with myself. Also they are still alive and young! God willing, He provides!

As for my God-son and the discussion on how he is saved, let's place that on the hands of God. There is obviously a plan from God there. And as long as there are Orthodox Liturgies on earth, my God-son is going to be fine. Our Mother, the Church does not forget us, Her children. Also he has my blessings and prayers, since I am his God-mother. But above all I believe that the Holy Trinity, Panagia and his patron saint have a great love for that child and for his family.

P.S Dear all, please keep my God-son and his family in your prayers. Since I shared the story, I will scan a baptism picture of him and post it. :)

[Mary]

But on the other hand, no, I don't think you need to assume whether someone has a sense of sin or not. The subjective state of the person hearing the Gospel message is practically moot, first because we must assume their hearts are hardened towards God, and because it is the Spirit's work to convict a person's heart, not ours. By bringing a sinner to the Word of God, we can rely on God's own promise that:

"my word...that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11)

The power to convict lies in God's hands, and the means to convict, says God, is his Word. Or as St. Paul wrote to the Romans:

"But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they do hear without someone preaching?... So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." (Romans 10:14, 17)

What we must all do, as living witnesses to the living God is to fearlessly share this word with those who have not heard the gospel, and trust God to water and grow the seeds that have been planted.

The same can be said of Baptism... like God's Word, it DOES something. A seed has been planted in that child, and through him, in the whole family. Whether they received it because of superstition or knowledge, doesn't matter much. It will grow. God is faithful, even if we aren't.


In Christ,

Mary.

[Adrian]

Orthodox Faith in 4 sentences:

1.Orthodox Christianity has maintained uninterrupted contact with God face to face for almost 2000 years and today there are people in Church that can speak face to face with God.
2.Orthodox Christianity is the Church established by Jesus where you can find baptism that transforms you from normal human to child of God and therefore opens the Path to Heaven.
3.Orthodox Christianity is the Church established by Jesus where you can find food for eternal life so it gives you eternal life.
4.Like other religions Orthodox Christianity teaches you to become good but while other religions stop here, Orthodox Christianity goes farther by giving you free pass to heaven through baptism and eternal life through Holy Communion.

In one sentence:

"Orthodox Church is the Church established by Jesus on year 33 on Pentecost day, that maintained for almost 2000 years face to face contact with God through its best people , that received for almost 2000 years yearly miracles from God like Holy Light, that received and continuously distributed the gifts of God , namely baptism for transforming people into children of God able to see Heaven again by overcoming the interdiction applied to children of Adam and Eve, Holy Communion for eternal life and confession for forgiveness of sins going well well well beyond the point other religions stop, namely teaching you to become good."

If you need comments look here:
Point 1: Even today there are people speaking face to face with God and here there is a movie about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7kreDRzgQ

Point 2:
Why baptism is important?
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
What baptism does?

John
1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
In Orthodox Church you become NATURAL children of God by being born of God, of Holy Spirit through Baptism .

Point 3.
Why food for eternal life is important?
John
6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For first 1500 years before first organization named Protestant organization was established by men , The church considered Holy Communion to be food for eternal life. Protestant organizations give to people a meal, symbols instead of Holy Communion for eternal life.


Point 1, about prayer of the Hearth or the way to speak face to face with God:
"When we pray with our tongue , with mouth and with lips, we are on the lowest prayer stage. We need to go with our prayer from tongue and mouth , to mind , because our soul has two leading parts, as Saint John Damascene showed us in "Dogmatica" : mind and hearth.
Mind gives us thoughts always. Brain is tool of tought, and hearth is the tool of sentiments, emotions, spiritual feelings.

Where do you feel first happiness, fear. Not in hearth? Do you see that soul feeling is in hearth?

So, I want to tell you one thing. When we pray with mouth we are at the beginning of prayer. And, if I say a prayer with mouth: "Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner", or "Our Father", or "Birthgiver of God, Virgin...!" or anyone and, if I comprehend with mind too, it is not called prayer of mouth anymore , but we are in another stage, namely the prayer of the mind.

And if this prayer that I am saying with mouth and I comprehend it with mind, I take it to my hearth feelings - it becomes then the prayer of the Hearth, a higher stage . So, hear what the Saint Paul the Apostle has to say : It is better to say five words with your mind in Church, rather than 10 000 words with tongue. Did you hear how much higher is the prayer of the mind than the prayer of the tongue because the Apostle preffers five words with mind in Church , rather than ten thousands words with tongue; because, to pray with mind, is a prayer much higher than prayer of the tongue.

But is the prayer of the mind perfect? No! Even the prayer of the mind is not perfect. The prayer of the mind is named by the Holy Fathers , half of prayer , or bird with one wing, or prayer with one foot, because even then the prayer of the mind is not perfect. Needs something else. We need to move this prayer from understanding of mind to hearth feeling.

When we say a prayer with tongue and we understand it with mind and we feel it with hearth, it becomes spherical, round, in our soul's movement. This prayer is much more perfect and is called the prayer of the hearth.

And you're going to ask me: The prayer of the hearth is the highest? Nu ! There are prayers even higher than the prayer of the hearth. But to the prayer of the hearth , says Saint Isaac the Syriac, only one in ten thousands can achieve it. And to the prayer that is higher than this, maybe one in every nation may achieve it; such higher is the prayer that is above the prayer of the hearth. And what are the stages above the prayer of the hearth?

First is the prayer named self moving prayer. Why is called this way? When the prayer in the hearth becomes powerful, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!", from a time the hearth prays without tongue to say anything. This is what the Song of Songs , in Bible: I sleep and my hearth is in vigil. Do you know how is our prayer then? It's like a clock that you turn it and then it works alone.

In this stage you go to what the Apostle Paul said:Pray unceasingly.(I Tes. 5.17). We may think that Apostle Paul says something above our powers. "How can I pray unceasingly? Because I eat. Can I pray when I eat? And I speak with people. can I pray then? You can if you want!

The man that is at self moving prayer, wherever he is, his hearth pray unceasingly. If he is in plane, if he is in train, if he is in factory,if it's in the train station, if he is on the road, if he sleeps, his hearth prays unceasingly. This prayer, when it is self moving, all his life is a prayer. Everything he works on Earth is a prayer.

The Apostles did not teach us above our power. When apostle Paul said: Pray unceasingly, the one that is at self moving prayer does his word. If he eats, his hearth prays, if he speaks with people, he has another mouth: the mouth of fire of the Holy Spirit from his hearth, and with that mouth speaks with God. It is the "mouth of Holy Spirit" as St Basil the Great said. Such a man that has gained "self moving prayer", everything he'll do his hearth is praying. This is the fourth stage of prayer.

There is another stage higher than this: the all vision prayer. What is this prayer? Did you see the Saint Anthony the Great?

From there, from his mountain, from Thebaid, where he was in Egypt, he was going with his mind to Saint Amonie other great hermit. This was just exiting life and his soul was taken by angels to the sky, and he started to prostate himself and the monks asked him:"Father, why are you prostating ?" And he responded: "Our brother Amonie, the big column of sky and Earth, goes to Heaven and I prostrated to his soul".

And it was a great distance from Saint Anthony to the Mountain of Saint Amonie, however Anthony saw Amonie's soul how it is raised by angels to the sky when it exited the body.This means clear vision or with forward seeing mind from God.

When the man becomes forward seeing from God, he has this prayer named all seing. So he raise up with mind so much, that he sees here where we are, how many demons are - because there are many - and how many angels are. He sees all of them. And he sees the one that cleansed his hearth , sees thoughts too; the thoughts of everybody. his mind becomes so clean , that he can tell what you are thinking, what the other one is thinking. He knows everybody's thoughts. Did you see the Savior: He knew the thoughts of pharisees and he said: Why do think evil in your hearths? What is easier to say? Raise up and take your bed and walk? or to say Your sins are forgiven? The Savior was seeing their thoughts.
So, to this measure climbs the man that has the self seeing prayer. He knows what everybody thinks. He sees bad spirits, he sees angels and everybody that takes care of our salvation here.

But there is even other stage of prayer even higher, the sixth's: Ecstasy prayer. From here when he prays , the mind goes to Heaven, his face becomes like fire and his hands and fingers like candles of fire and he is not on Earth with mind only into Heaven.

The last prayer stage higher than ecstasy prayer, is: The spiritual prayer. this is the seventh. The spiritual prayer is not prayer anymore. As Fathers of the Church said, it is called spiritual vision and Kingdom of Heaven. The same thing is said by Saint Ephrem the Syriac.

So spiritual prayer is higher than the borders of prayer. It is one substance with God. This is what Apostle Paul saw: I know a man, that 14 years ago, went to the third Heaven and he heard words, that is not possible to man to say them. In body or out of body, God knows.

He didn't know how it was. Because in this type of prayer the mind of man does not work thorough his power. it is taken by the power of Holy Spirit and it is taken to Heavenly celebration and it cannot think what it wants. The mind is taken to great discoveries in Hell, in Heaven, wherever Holy Spirit wants to take it. And this man is in great discoveries and when he comes back, he does not know if he was in body our out of body like Apostle Paul.

This is the highest prayer and Father Ephrem the Syriac say that one in a country may be able to do it. Maybe one in a generation.

Why did I told you about these stages of prayer? It has as a total seven stages: The prayer of mouth, mind and hearth. And the other intermediary stages are link one with the other, like nails on a stair when you climb up. A usual man goes through these stages with the gift of God. But to climb these stages is not in the power of man. From man is required the will. To pray as he can, but to get these higher gifts, it is only a Godly work, that depends on the gift of God.