List of names at Divine Liturgy

[Tom Cook]

Whenever I write a list of names to be taken to the altar with my prosphora before the Divine Liturgy, I am conscious of the fact that the priest will have to read each one out individually.

Can anyone give me a rule of thumb about how long these lists should be? I generally have about 25 names of the living and 15 names of the departed. Is this too many?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Whenever I write a list of names to be taken to the altar with my prosphora before the Divine Liturgy, I am conscious of the fact that the priest will have to read each one out individually.

Can anyone give me a rule of thumb about how long these lists should be? I generally have about 25 names of the living and 15 names of the departed. Is this too many?

No, probably this is not too many.

But different parishes have different practices for this.

Some use commemorative booklets with pages for the names of the living in the front section and for the departed in the back. These booklets where they are used (especially in the Russian church) often contain many names.

Another practice however is single sheets. On these also many names can be written.

Keep in mind also that the general practice is to commemorate only those who are Orthodox. This is because for the names read a portion or particles of the prosphora will be placed onto the Discos. Then after the communion of the people, the clergy wipe these particles into the Cup, which is a kind of communion.

In some parishes however the people write the names of the non-Orthodox in a separate section of the commemorative sheets usually after the Orthodox names. If so the priest would read these names without placing particles of the prosphora on the Discos for them. But you really have to ask the priest about this as the practice for this varies from parish to parish.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father Anthony]

I have to concur with Father Raphael's post. I also would like to add that as a priest many times names are submitted for commemoration and for memorial service that have names like "Bobby" and "Sally". If possible, it would be wonderful to have their Christian name they received at baptism or chrismation.

As Father Raphael noted also, names for non-Orthodox are handled in a different fashion, and when names that are not Christian names are submitted it makes it difficult for the priest to determine how to commemorate them.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

[Tom Cook]

Thank you all for your replies.

I recently bought a small booklet, called a Pomyannik, which I am using to record the names of all those I want to remember to pray for. Unfortunately, in the antitheistical society within which I live, many of the names in my booklet are not even Christian let alone Orthodox.

Perhaps I should agree a convention with my priest whereby only those names marked with a special symbol are Orthodox.

[Father Anthony]

Thank you all for your replies.

I recently bought a small booklet, called a Pomyannik, which I am using to record the names of all those I want to remember to pray for. Unfortunately, in the antitheistical society within which I live, many of the names in my booklet are not even Christian let alone Orthodox.

Perhaps I should agree a convention with my priest whereby only those names marked with a special symbol are Orthodox.

Perhaps that may work with your parish priest, but if you take that elsewhere to another parish you may visit it may cause some confusion to that parish's priest.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

[Andreas Moran]

I wonder if the fathers here can comment on this? Do those departed have to have been in some way in good order with the Church to be 'listed'? Inevitably, Lydia, my wife, had relatives who were baptised but then lived under communism all their lives and died without confession or even the presence of a priest for obvious reasons, and did not have a church funeral.

Secondly, can we only commemorate those departed we knew or to whom we are related? Could one, for example, put Dmitri Shostakovich on the list?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I wonder if the fathers here can comment on this? Do those departed have to have been in some way in good order with the Church to be 'listed'? Inevitably, Lydia, my wife, had relatives who were baptised but then lived under communism all their lives and died without confession or even the presence of a priest for obvious reasons, and did not have a church funeral.

Secondly, can we only commemorate those departed we knew or to whom we are related? Could one, for example, put Dmitri Shostakovich on the list?

As long as someone is Orthodox and did not take their own lives or apostasize or commit some other similar & serious sin without repentance they can be commemorated. All may be included not only those we know.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mary James]

There is never too many names to commemorate during proskomedia. These names are taking up by angels and set before the throne of God!

Elder Ephraim of Kantounakia said to list as many "Orthodox" people you can during this commemoration because it really helps people's soul. He also said that he put down every Orthodox person he remembered from childhood until the time he was an old monk on Athos on this list. Elder Ephraim also said, "This is how St. Nicholas Palanas opened the gates of paradise to himself, by commemorating all Orthodox people he knew."

Yes, the Priest does read each name individually. I feel sorry for my Priest, because for Proskomedia, I hand him a booklet of names, lols.

[Nina]

There is never too many names to commemorate during proskomedia. These names are taking up by angels and set before the throne of God!

Elder Ephraim of Kantounakia said to list as many "Orthodox" people you can during this commemoration because it really helps people's soul. He also said that he put down every Orthodox person he remembered from childhood until the time he was an old monk on Athos on this list. Elder Ephraim also said, "This is how St. Nicholas Palanas opened the gates of paradise to himself, by commemorating all Orthodox people he knew."

Yes, the Priest does read each name individually. I feel sorry for my Priest, because for Proskomedia, I hand him a booklet of names, lols.

This is beautiful dear Maria! Thank you for sharing it. Also I have read that when a name is commemorated by the priest an angel wipes out the sins of the person.

[Mary James]

This is beautiful dear Maria! Thank you for sharing it. Also I have read that when a name is commemorated by the priest an angel wipes out the sins of the person.

Yes, I've heard this too.

The particles represent those people who's names have been brought forward in prayer, and therefore they are not consecrated into the Body of the Lord and are not given in communion to the people. These particles are offered by the Church so that by means of them those persons for whom they were cut might receive grace, consecration, and the remission of sins through the Holy Sacrifice offered for the purification of the whole world on the Altar; for the particles lye beside the Body of Christ and are latter placed in the Chalice where all is filled with sanctification, and spiritual gifts are sent down upon those whose names were commemorated. The particle are placed in the Chalice so that they will be moistened with the Blood of Christ; thus 1) The Saints are shown as closely united with God, for the greater glory and rejoicing in heaven; 2) The living and the dead, washed in this most pure Blood of the Son of God, have received the remission of sins and inherit life eternal as shown by the words pronounced at this moment: "Wash away, O Lord, the sins of those commemorated here, in Thy precious Blood."

Taken from the book, "How our Departed ones live."

[Paul Cowan]

Also I have read that when a name is commemorated by the priest an angel wipes out the sins of the person.

Dear Nina,

Surely you don't suggest this takes the place of confession. The kids I work with mostly from Baptist families, say I don't go to church because my grandmother does. She prays for me. From what you wrote, someone can get into Heaven based on the washing away of sins by someone else praying for them. I don't think this is what you meant to say.
Paul

[Nina]

Dear Nina,

Surely you don't suggest this takes the place of confession. The kids I work with mostly from Baptist families, say I don't go to church because my grandmother does. She prays for me. From what you wrote, someone can get into Heaven based on the washing away of sins by someone else praying for them. I don't think this is what you meant to say.
Paul

Dear Paul,

Going to Church and the Mystery of the Holy Confession are completely different themes from the one of the power of the Proskomede (Proskomidi) prayer. It is one of the strongest prayers I have heard. What does going to church and Confession has to do with the prayer of the priest? Here we see the importance of the prayer of a priest because of the authority that God has given him. In the book of St. Niphon I read that at a moment in Liturgy there is a fire (column I think) coming from Heaven and enveloping the priest while he prays to God and the priest of course is not aware of it. So this has to do with the Mystery of Priesthood and the power God grants His servants through that and the power of the Holy Communion.

And now story time :)

On the Divine Liturgy and Holy Communion


In the skete of St. Anne lived a certain hiermonk Savvas, the famous "Papa-Savvas" as he was called. Fr. Joachim Spetsieris had him as his spiritual father. The Empress of Russia, Catherine, also had him as her spiritual father. He served the liturgy every day; he was a God-bearing, clairvoyant teacher of noetic prayer.
Once some people asked him, "What motivates you to commemorate so many names in the proskomidi?" He answered, "When I was younger, we called the bishop to consecrate the church above the Holy Monastery of St. Dionysios" (It was there that he first practiced hesychasm, with his elder, Papa-Hilarion, another famous spiritual father.) "After the consecration, the bishop said to my Elder, 'May I give Papa-Savvas some names to commemorate for forty days, since he serves liturgy every day?" My Elder told him, 'Give him as many as you want.' So he gave me sixty-two names. When I had completed thirty-nine Liturgies and was about to serve the fortieth, I leaned against the chanter's stand and waited for my Elder to come, so that I could say the entrance prayers to serve Liturgy. I fell asleep and saw in my sleep that I was wearing priestly vestments and was standing before the Holy Table. On the Holy Table was the holy diskos for the Liturgy, and the holy chalice full of the holy Blood of Christ. Then I saw Papa-Stephen come and take the communion spoon and the paper from the proskomidi, approach the Holy Table, and put the paper on it beside the holy diskos. Then he dipped the spoon into the holy Blood of Christ and a name was erased. He dipped it again and another one was erased, and so forth until all were done and the paper was clean. Then I awoke, and in a little while my Elder came. Immediately I told him what I saw. The Elder said to me, 'Didn't I tell you not to believe in dreams?' After the Liturgy he added, 'You are not worthy for their sins to be forgiven; through the power of the Blood of Christ their sins were forgiven.' So this is the reason why I commemorate the names of everyone.




Elder Ephraim

[Paul Cowan]

ok, Nina you have opened a can of worms here. If the priest can pray away my sins during his prayer, why do I need to go to confession? I'll just give him a list with my names on it.

I know I still have to, but from the above, it does not seem to be the case. Yes, I am being argumentative. :P

[Nina]

ok, Nina you have opened a can of worms here. If the priest can pray away my sins during his prayer, why do I need to go to confession? I'll just give him a list with my names on it.

I know I still have to, but from the above, it does not seem to be the case. Yes, I am being argumentative. :P

Who said I am trained to counsel you spiritually, or that I would like to deal with whatever you can't understand? :P

Right now I can't think so I am not writing anything about it.

P.S The author of the quote is Elder Ephraim of AZ.

[Paul Cowan]

Let me know when you can think again. I am curious now about this.

Paul

[Nina]

Let me know when you can think again. I am curious now about this.

Paul

LOL I can think. But I can't think right now for reasons pertaining this issue, since I am not in the mood to.

But maybe someone else can help you and if not I will not forget you ;).

[Nina]

Dear Paul,

Here is something:

“Concerning Frequent Communion of the Immaculate Mysteries of Christ” by our Righteous God-bearing Father Nikodemos the Hagiorite




Many say that sins are forgiven through Holy Communion. Others are opposed to this and say that they are not forgiven through Holy Communion, but only through the Mystery of Confession. The truth is that both are necessary: preparation through confession and the fulfillment of our rule, and the sacred reception of Holy Communion. For neither to the one nor to the other can we ascribe the whole. Rather, let us consider a dirty garment which, after it has been washed, also requires the warmth of the sun to dry out its moisture and dampness. For, if it remains wet, it becomes ruined, and no one can wear it.

Or just like a wound, after someone cleanses and disinfects it, killing the worms, and cuts away the dead skin, cannot be left alone without ointment; in the same way, after sin has been washed and cleansed away through confession, and its deadness cut away through one’s ascetical rule, divine Communion is also necessary, to kill it completely and to heal it like an ointment. For, without Communion, man reverts to his previous condition, and “the last state of that man becomes worse than the first” (Mt. 12:45), as the Lord says.
Therefore we see that there is synergy between the Mystery of Confession and Holy Communion about the Now how about the names? I think that the names read in Proskomide are like a forerunner to the act of Holy Communion and since Communion wipes out sins perhaps that is the the reason why names read at Proskomide is important in expiating sins.

Also what Mary James posted above is very important:


The particles represent those people who's names have been brought forward in prayer, and therefore they are not consecrated into the Body of the Lord and are not given in communion to the people. These particles are offered by the Church so that by means of them those persons for whom they were cut might receive grace, consecration, and the remission of sins through the Holy Sacrifice offered for the purification of the whole world on the Altar; for the particles lye beside the Body of Christ and are latter placed in the Chalice where all is filled with sanctification, and spiritual gifts are sent down upon those whose names were commemorated. The particle are placed in the Chalice so that they will be moistened with the Blood of Christ; thus 1) The Saints are shown as closely united with God, for the greater glory and rejoicing in heaven; 2) The living and the dead, washed in this most pure Blood of the Son of God, have received the remission of sins and inherit life eternal as shown by the words pronounced at this moment: "Wash away, O Lord, the sins of those commemorated here, in Thy precious Blood."

Taken from the book, "How our Departed ones live."I am sorry I can not explain more since I just believe that, and that is it for me. However maybe other friends here will help more.

[Nina]

Dear Paul,

Something else I remembered is that Geronda Paisios speaks about Proskomide and its immense importance in his book: 'With Pain and Love for Contemporary Man'.

When the priest was cutting the Prosphoron (offering bread) and when he said the words of the prayer: "as a Sheep... Lamb..." Geronda Paisios heard the quivering and the bleeting of a lamb. Such things are mysteries and he so worthy to see and hear such things is trying to explain to us poor, unworthy ones also part of that great Mystery.

[Antonios]

If the priest can pray away my sins during his prayer, why do I need to go to confession? I'll just give him a list with my names on it.

Dear Paul,

Who can understand God and His ministry? Perhaps this angel extinguished a less mortal sin? -at least that's how I interpret it.

In confession, however, Jesus is invisibly in front of you. Standing in heaven and in front of you! Glory to God in the Highest!

In Christ,
Antonios

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Paul Cowan wrote:


If the priest can pray away my sins during his prayer, why do I need to go to confession? I'll just give him a list with my names on it.

But then we could ask a similar question: "why not just write out my sins on a piece of paper and hand it to the priest for him to forgive me?"

Confession though takes that effort of standing before an actual person who is ordained to hear such things and saying clearly and with repentance or sorrow or a desire not to repeat such things what our sins are.

In a similar way to submit the prayer booklets, to have the priest read the names contained therein and put a piece from the prosphora onto the discos for each name he reads; then to wipe these particles into the Chalice afterwards. Ultimately the grace of this is of effect because the person themselves cares for their salvation.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Paul Cowan]

Father bless,

Yes this was the question I was asking. I do understand the Publican and the Pharisee story. I do hear what you are saying, but I can be chicken sometimes and though I can "hide" from my priest perhaps behind the Proskomedia prayers and be absolved, it does not replace me kneeling in front of him/Christ confessing.

Personally, I don't agree with the forgivenss of my sins through the prayer. I have to work on my sins and I have to ask forgiveness directly. It would be like sinning against my wife and sending her an apology note rather than facing up to her and what I did.

Although I have always been a chicken and run from my stupid mistakes and harm I have caused people. Making amends is NOT easy. Nor should it be.

Paul


Paul Cowan wrote:


But then we could ask a similar question: "why not just write out my sins on a piece of paper and hand it to the priest for him to forgive me?"

Confession though takes that effort of standing before an actual person who is ordained to hear such things and saying clearly and with repentance or sorrow or a desire not to repeat such things what our sins are.

In a similar way to submit the prayer booklets, to have the priest read the names contained therein and put a piece from the prosphora onto the discos for each name he reads; then to wipe these particles into the Chalice afterwards. Ultimately the grace of this is of effect because the person themselves cares for their salvation.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

Although I have always been a chicken and run from my stupid mistakes and harm I have caused people. Making amends is NOT easy. Nor should it be.

Paul

Giggles... Now you are being too tough. Do you know what a Father said?

"Do you think God is just? I do not think He is just because if He was just He would have payed us instantly according to our sins etc. etc. etc." (Paraphrased)

[Paul Cowan]

Yes, I also pray God is NOT a Just God. If He were, I would already be under Hell. I pray He is a Merciful God.

Paul

[Moses Ibrahim]

Paul, do not forget that the dead can no longer repent and improve their state beyond the grave. Since our time on earth was given that we may repent and perform fruits worthy of repentance; we are called to pray for the departed and to give alms on their behalf that their sins may be forgiven them. This is not magic, this has been the tradition from the early days of our True Faith. (Forgive my harsh words) However, since we are still alive, we must go to confession and truly repent and not place our false hope in complete disobedience to God and expect His mercy by the prayers at the proskomide. This is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. (Once again I know you are not blaspheming but just speaking your mind, to prove your point since you claim to be argumentative :P ) Anyway, God hears the prayers of commemoration that He might save His creation, since God does not desire the death of a sinner but rather that he come to Life. And how can those who die repentant yet not bearing any fruits worthy of repentance be saved? By the intercession of the Church. By alms giving. By offering the Holy Sacrifice for them since with God all things are possible. (Forgive me if I seem to know what i'm speaking about, but all this is paraphrased from the teaching of the Holy Fathers taken from the book "How our Departed Ones Live"... please correct any errors)

Elder Iakovos of Tsalikis used to see the people for whom he was commemorating at the proskomide. Once his reposed mother appeared to him and told him why he didn't commemorate her that day. He apologized to her and said he forgot and then he commemorated her.

Mary James quote by far illustrates the ultimate and unfathomable Grace of our Merciful God and how His mercy extends to the living as well as to those beyond the grave.

The particles represent those people who's names have been brought forward in prayer, and therefore they are not consecrated into the Body of the Lord and are not given in communion to the people. These particles are offered by the Church so that by means of them those persons for whom they were cut might receive grace, consecration, and the remission of sins through the Holy Sacrifice offered for the purification of the whole world on the Altar; for the particles lye beside the Body of Christ and are latter placed in the Chalice where all is filled with sanctification, and spiritual gifts are sent down upon those whose names were commemorated. The particle are placed in the Chalice so that they will be moistened with the Blood of Christ; thus 1) The Saints are shown as closely united with God, for the greater glory and rejoicing in heaven; 2) The living and the dead, washed in this most pure Blood of the Son of God, have received the remission of sins and inherit life eternal as shown by the words pronounced at this moment: "Wash away, O Lord, the sins of those commemorated here, in Thy precious Blood."

Taken from the book, "How our Departed ones live."

God calls His Church and His people to commemorate the living and the dead, especially in regards to the dead in order that He might extend His great Mercy to them and wash away their sins, since the dead can no longer perform works of repentance; and since we are also called to love one another (not just those alive but those who are beyond the grave since God is not a God of the dead but of the living) and to pray for one another. So I would say, make sure you commemorate every Orthodox person that comes to mind... buy as many books as it takes to list them all. Also pray for all at home; in this way one saves their soul and the souls of others, cause their reward is shared with those souls whom they save, through God's great Mercy.

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Moses,

I think we are on the same page.

I do believe in and do pray for the living and the dead daily. My point of my argument was self focused. It is not directed at others. If MY sins can be forgiven through the prayers, why do I need to go to confession? I know the answer to this but to show my point was directed at myself. Not at anyone else.

Has anyone read the life of St. Xenia lately? She took on the fool for Christ wearing her husbands military clothes doing alms in his name and taking the rebuff of most everyone. I think this is the epitimy of intercession of what we are discussing.

Paul

[Moses Ibrahim]

Dear Moses,

I think we are on the same page.

I do believe in and do pray for the living and the dead daily. My point of my argument was self focused. It is not directed at others. If MY sins can be forgiven through the prayers, why do I need to go to confession? I know the answer to this but to show my point was directed at myself. Not at anyone else.

Has anyone read the life of St. Xenia lately? She took on the fool for Christ wearing her husbands military clothes doing alms in his name and taking the rebuff of most everyone. I think this is the epitimy of intercession of what we are discussing.

Paul

Forgive me, I must have misunderstood. Now it does look like we're on the same page. Yes I do understand what you mean about the point focusing around yourself. St. Xenia truly worked out the salvation of others and in doing so by God's grace her soul was saved. You could never go wrong with asking her prayers. :)

[Nina]

If MY sins can be forgiven through the prayers, why do I need to go to confession? I know the answer to this but to show my point was directed at myself. Not at anyone else.
Paul

Paul maybe the Proskomide prayer by the grace of God helps the person to repent and confess. As you might know repentance and a complete confession are sometime difficult because of various temptations.

[Moses Ibrahim]

Paul maybe the Proskomide prayer by the grace of God helps the person to repent and confess. As you might know repentance and a complete confession are sometime difficult because of various temptations.

That is a very good point Nina, without God we can do nothing. Even in the Divine Liturgy we asked God in the petitions:

That we may complete the remaining time of our life in peace and repentance, let us as the Lord. ... Grant this O Lord.

The commemoration of names is taken up by an angel of the Lord and placed at the throne of God where Grace is bestowed on those people who were commemorated. Hence, we receive repentance and remission of sins, and strength to overcome our passions and much more which I do not even know about.

[Nina]

That is a very good point Nina, without God we can do nothing.

Yes, that is so very true that we can do nothing without God and your elaboration is very good.

I have to confess that that point is not actually "mine". A friend of mine told me those words, when I asked him about the names and Proskomide prayer. I do not really think very much about such things since I just believe them.

[Andreas Moran]

Could someone quote chapter and verse for the rule that the names of non-Orthodox are not to be commemorated by particles of prosphora being put on the diskos (and so subsequently in the chalice)?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Could someone quote chapter and verse for the rule that the names of non-Orthodox are not to be commemorated by particles of prosphora being put on the diskos (and so subsequently in the chalice)?

From a recent photo of an instruction sheet for the faithful at one of the churches at the Kievo-Pechersk Monastery:
2. For the living and and the departed only those baptised into the Orthodox Church can be commemorated.
3. It is not permitted to commemorate schismatics, those of other faiths, and suicides.

[David James]

Dear Andreas:

I imagine that only Orthodox are commemorated during the Prothesis for the same reason that only Orthodox are permitted to commune. However, commemoration books are not only for remembrance during the Prothesis, but for our own personal use during our daily prayer, especially in conjuction with "The Commemoration", a special prayer that is supposed to be said every day (either in the morning or in the evening, as time permits) by everyone. It is available in English in both the Jordanville and Old Orthodox Prayer Books. And in one's "cell" of course, one can pray for anyone, Orthodox or not.

FYI, one does not have to buy a pre-printed commemoration book, which will usually have too few pages, especially, as we get older, for the departed. Follow the link below for excellent instructions on how to make your own, which includes sections for the commemoration of non-Orthodox, living and dead.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/commemoration.aspx

David James


Could someone quote chapter and verse for the rule that the names of non-Orthodox are not to be commemorated by particles of prosphora being put on the diskos (and so subsequently in the chalice)?

[Andreas Moran]

Thank you Fr Raphael and David. What I'm after is the source of the rule - a canon, presumably. Although some clergy in some jurisdictions are known so to commemorate non-Orthodox, it is my understaning that this is wrong and is not permitted, by economy or otherwise. But I'd like to have the authority if anyone can supply it.

[Eric Peterson]

There are different ways some clergy commemorate non-Orthodox in services. Most all clergy do not commemorate the non-Orthodox in the same way as the Orthodox. For example, they will not take out particles for the names of non-Orthodox at Proskomidia. Some will not do memorial services for them or allow koliva to be offered for them, but will mention them at certain petitions. There is variety in the practice.

It might be considered wrong, but wrong in what way, to what degree? Is it wrong like communing non-Orthodox (which, alas, some Orthodox priests do), or is it wrong like kissing the chalice (which seems to have been a matter of disagreement in the Church for the past 1,000 years with some insisting for kissing and some insisting against it)?

With regard to commemoration of the non-Orthodox, the use of names, that is, public commemoration, appears to be the key issue. I think the clergy that do this do this for the sake of those who have brought the names, people they love and care about and want to pray for. Personally, the mentioning of the name is not an issue for me, but prayer is. For example, if we have a non-Orthodox loved one who is departed (even a suicide), we have a general akathist for the departed which could be prayed instead of a memorial service, and prayed in the church with the priest and congregation. But it's a little longer, it takes more time and effort--and so, sadly, I think many priests don't want to do it, or lay people don't request it, or no one knows about it at all. But it would do good for the mourners, the soul of the departed, and everyone who prayed it if it were done.

[Anthony Stokes]

FYI, one does not have to buy a pre-printed commemoration book, which will usually have too few pages, especially, as we get older, for the departed. Follow the link below for excellent instructions on how to make your own, which includes sections for the commemoration of non-Orthodox, living and dead.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/commemoration.aspx

David James

David,
thanks for that link. I am actually in the process of finishing a "Commemoration Book for American Orthodox Christians" that I am going to publish very soon (just working out some formatting). It has large sections for Non-Orthodox living and departed. I'll let everyone know when it is ready.

Sbdn. Anthony

[M.C. Steenberg]

While I'm afraid I cannot directly reply to Andreas' request for a textual source for this (I'm nowhere near my books at the moment), I did just want to say a brief word on the practice.

The commemoration of persons at the proskomedie is part of the liturgical mystery of the Eucharist, in which those persons named are drawn into the sacrament through the particle dedicated to them being joined with the holy body and blood of the Lord in the chalice. It is not simply an act of praying for those named: it is their mystical participation in the sacrament by being named, being commemorated with a particle from the prosphora, being united with the body and blood at the altar. As such, all the same 'rules' apply as for the direct participation in the mystery: namely, that the persons be Orthodox, inasmuch as this is a rite of participation in an Orthodox sacrament.

Quite apart from this, the idea of commemorating a non-Orthodox person in this manner is fundamentally disrespectful to the person: one ought not to be 'forced' into the Liturgy and sacramental life of the Church apart from one's free will.

The conflation of issues that regularly lies behind the practice, in some traditions, of commemorating non-Orthodox people at the proskomedie is a confusion of praying for others (which one can, must, do for all - particularly those who are not in the embrace of the Church) and liturgically joining them into participation in the Eucharist. The observation that it is un-charitable not to pray for someone simply because they are not Orthodox is quite correct; but it is also irrelevant to this particular practice. The practice of not commemorating the non-Orthodox at the proskomedie is not a declaration that one ought not pray for them; it is a confession of respect for the freedom of each human person, as well as the love of God that works both in the sacraments and beyond them.

One's prayer books / lists should be filled with the names of many - Orthodox and non-Orthodox. But the lists one hands to the priest for commemoration at the proskomedie should, out of deep and properly reverent love for all, contain only the names of those who by their God-given free will have united themselves to the Church in whose sacrament they will thus mystically be a participant.

INXC, Deacon Matthew

[James Harrin]

My Commemoration book contains the names of both Orthodox and Non-Orthodox alike. However, to assist the Priest in identifying the Orthodox I have underlined those names with red ink.

Additionally, I have identified clergy with their title (i.e Fr, Dn, Nun, Archimandrite etc.,) as I was advised by a Priest that that is correct practice.

Any comments ?

James

[Olga]

Additionally, I have identified clergy with their title (i.e Fr, Dn, Nun, Archimandrite etc.,) as I was advised by a Priest that that is correct practice.

Any comments ?

James

James, this is quite correct. It is also proper to use the title child before the name of deceased children.

[Andreas Moran]

The practice described by Fr Dcn Matthew is what I have always understood to be the position, not only in the Russian Orthodox Church but also in the Orthodox Churches in Greece and Cyprus (in my experience). Of course, in Orthodox countries and in overwhelmingly Orthodox communities such as the Cypriot communities in Britain, this position is not difficult to maintain. I assume that departure from practice is characteristic in communities where the people (and perhaps the priest as well) are converts. In such communities, probably most of the faithful have no Orthodox relatives, living or departed. It is possible to appreciate the feeling of such faithful that not commemorating relatives in the proskomedie somehow creates a sense of separation from them and an inability to 'do the best' for them. For example, a convert Orthodox priest cannot commemorate his own non-Orthodox departed parents or his non-Orthodox living siblings. It might be argued by converts that there is an anomaly in being unable to commemorate, say, a pious C of E relative but yet the priest can be asked to commemorate an Orthodox person whose character when alive was far from pious. One can understand such feelings. It may also be the case that a priest, whilst not giving Holy Communion to a non-Orthodox person may, though, feel able to commemorate non-Orthodox in the proskomedie.


the idea of commemorating a non-Orthodox person in this manner is fundamentally disrespectful to the person: one ought not to be 'forced' into the Liturgy and sacramental life of the Church apart from one's free will.

How does this relate to non-Orthodox departed?

One could ask the question, in relation only to non-Orthodox departed, what are the consequences of commemorating them in the proskomedie? Is the heavenly kingdom subject to the boundaries of the Orthodox Church on earth which the practice presumably aims to recognise and maintain?

I put these points forward, not because I agree with commemoration of non-Orthodox, departed or living, but for consideration on how these sensitive matters may be dealt with.

I would add that the point came to mind because it was one of the issues put in evidence in the case of Dean v Burne which I mention in my thread, 'Recent court decision'. Here is part of what Irina von Schlippe said in her witness statement which was referred to by the judge:


56. Irina von Schlippe, one of those who followed Bishop Basil when he transferred to the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, had a similar view of the material events:
16. A very important change in practice was suddenly imposed, which made life very difficult indeed. We were told that we could no longer ask for prayers at the altar for non-Orthodox people … All my life I have been sending prosforas before the Liturgy with the names of my family, friends and benefactors, to be offered in prayer by the priest. Suddenly the practice of the Moscow Patriarchate of restricting prayers to members of the Orthodox faith meant that our community was completely disrupted: we all have family members who are not Orthodox. I could no longer ask for prayers for my late father or any of his family - they were Catholics - or for my Anglican son-in-law and his relatives, let alone the many dear British colleagues in our charity.
17. I and other Church members felt that some of our closest friends were now treated as inferior and not deserving of Church prayers because some authority had decided this from on high. Prayers for the living and the dead at the altar, bringing them into the assembled community in prayer, are exceptionally important for the Orthodox. Its loss is upsetting and unacceptable.

[Father David Moser]

My Commemoration book contains the names of both Orthodox and Non-Orthodox alike. However, to assist the Priest in identifying the Orthodox I have underlined those names with red ink.

Additionally, I have identified clergy with their title (i.e Fr, Dn, Nun, Archimandrite etc.,) as I was advised by a Priest that that is correct practice.

Any comments ?

James

If one must include the names of non-Orthodox in the list you send in for commemoration at proskomedia, it is extremely important that the non-Orthodox names be designated as such in a clear and easily identifiable manner. It would be best, of course, to keep a separate booklet used only for liturgical commemorations as sometimes (often) those commemorations are read by the servers while the priest takes the particles from the bread in their memory and servers (especially young ones) aren't always attentive to those subtle differences in commemoration.

As for titles, it is proper to add the title of anyone being commemorated. Here's the important point - "Father" is NOT a proper title, it is an "affectionate" or perhaps "polite" term. Always indicate such things as "Reader", "Subdeacon", Deacon, Priest, Bishop,Archbishop, Monk, Hieromonk, Archpriest, Abbot, etc, etc - but do not just put "Father". This also applies to women - "Nun", "Abbess", Schemanun, etc should be used not "sister" or "mother". It is also good to list your names in order of rank Bishops, then Priests, then Deacons, then minor orders, then monastics, then laymen. At the very least separate out everyone into three general categories Major Clergy, Monastics, Laymen (incl minor orders)

Fr David Moser

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

What Fr Dn Matthew has written I firmly believe to be the correct understanding and practice. We need to keep in mind after all that commemoration of the living and the departed at the Liturgy is a uniquely eucharistic action. As such as said the rule for commemoration is identical to that which the Church follows for those who physically receive from the Cup. In other words those we commemorate actually participate in the Life giving sacrament and that is why for example there is has been such strong insistence over the centuries that we commemorate the departed at the Liturgy. On the other hand this is distinct from prayer for others at other services such as a moleben where the non-Orthodox are prayed for.

What this means is that the Eucharist is a unique action of the Church which intercedes for and takes up those committed to Her life. This is different from the prayer of the Church for the whole world as occurs for example in the Moleben and our so called personal prayers. This is because the Eucharistic offering is not simply the prayer of the Church- rather it is the actualization of the Body of Christ for and through Her members. And as such it refers to those who consciously at least on some level took up this life. Again this is quite different from the prayer of the Church for the world.

One additional point here is pastoral. In many churches during the proskemedia there are so many names to read that it is impossible to put a particle for each name onto the discos. What is important is that the names be read and this serves as a commemoration for them. In this case especially it becomes very confusing to also have the names of non-Orthodox appear on the lists one receives in the Altar since it is the act of reading the name which denotes their commemoration as Orthodox. It is for this reason that I personally prefer that commemoration lists be kept to the names of the Orthodox.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

As such as said the rule for commemoration is identical to that which the Church follows for those who physically receive from the Cup.

Can the rule be identical? A priest would not give Holy Communion to an Orthodox Christian who was not in good order with the Church (e.g. 'living in sin'). But when we give names for commemoration in the proskomedie, neither we nor the priest (if he is not the confessor of the person named) may know whether that person is in good order with the Church or not. But we give the name anyway. If we know but the priest does not that a person is not in good order with the Church, should we not give that person's name?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Can the rule be identical? A priest would not give Holy Communion to an Orthodox Christian who was not in good order with the Church (e.g. 'living in sin'). But when we give names for commemoration in the proskomedie, neither we nor the priest (if he is not the confessor of the person named) may know whether that person is in good order with the Church or not. But we give the name anyway. If we know but the priest does not that a person is not in good order with the Church, should we not give that person's name?

Dear Andreas,

The rule is identical in the sense that in both situations we use discernment along with more strict guidelines.

Thus an Orthodox person could be living in a sinful situation but yet we commemorate them. While with another person we would not do so. This partly depends on discernment.

An example from our parish was someone who took their own life. According to the strict guidelines such people neither receive an Orthodox funeral nor are they commemorated. But yet in this case because of an exceptional circumstance I felt I needed guidance from my bishop. When I spoke to him he said to do the panichida service at the funeral home and then give the person a proper Orthodox burial. So in accordance with this we always commemorate this person at the Proskemedia. And I believe this to be correct. The point of the exceptional circumstance after all related to a certain effort this person made to approach the Church after many years absence.

On the other hand our church has first hand recent experience of quite a few who chose schism instead of reconciliation with the rest of the Church. Several of these people were very close to us. And yet I feel a great hesitation when I come to their names on our old commemoration lists. Schism from the Church in such an obvious and tangible fashion is very serious business. Although I am not sure of what to do in this case (and I suspect my fellow priests are doing different things here) it troubles my conscience far more to commemorate those who went into schism than to commemorate the person who took their life- although on the face of it one might think the opposite.

The point then is that the Liturgy is far from being just the prayer of the Church for the world as other forms of prayer for Her are. Rather it is that unique liturgical participation in Christ whereby we approach and make real that reality of the Church that as Orthodox Christians we all strive or hope for. Therefore even though we have guidelines about this we use discernment concerning the degree to which a person actually hoped for or strove for this reality.

One last word here is very important. It is an example of what I am trying to say. Even though the Orthodox usually receive an 'official Orthodox burial' it often happens that those of very questionable standing end up with a service that is greatly diminshed in some aspect. All of this usually occurs quite beyond our own intention and control. But it speaks of a greater reality then just whether services are done or names are commemorated.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

The tricky thing is to balance love and proper order.


If we know but the priest does not that a person is not in good order with the Church, should we not give that person's name?

Should we give the name and leave it to God to sort out?

[Nina]

The tricky thing is to balance love and proper order.

Should we give the name and leave it to God to sort out?

We should not trick the priest. When we give names for Proskomide we must indicate which names are Orthodox and which are not. Having some non-Orthodox people in my family I make sure to ask for personal prayers from the priest but those names are in another section which is marked non-Orthodox. Do not misunderstand me I love these people so very much (well one of them is my spouse) however they are free to be what they wish and we must respect that freedom.

[Andreas Moran]

Should we give the name and leave it to God to sort out?

I meant a living Orthodox person not in good order with the Church. Father Raphael answered the point thus:


Thus an Orthodox person could be living in a sinful situation but yet we commemorate them. While with another person we would not do so. This partly depends on discernment.

but I'm not clear who does the discerning - we, or the priest if we tell him about the person. And if it depends partly on discernment, on what else may it depend? (The questions are not academic - we have a case in mind.)

[Nina]

I meant a living Orthodox person not in good order with the Church. Father Raphael answered the point thus:

but I'm not clear who does the discerning - we, or the priest if we tell him about the person. And if it depends partly on discernment, on what else may it depend? (The questions are not academic - we have a case in mind.)

A living Orthodox person not in good order??? What does it mean not in good order? We are all not in good order, since we are sinners. And know that Proskomide prayers are some powerful ones which invoke God's mercy on that soul. So if one person is "not in good order" maybe we must pray for him/her even more and give the name for Proskomide so that God shows His mercy and sends His Grace to that soul to repent and come back into good order.

[Father David Moser]

A living Orthodox person not in good order??? What does it mean not in good order? We are all not in good order, since we are sinners.

This would be a person who persists in a particular sin and who is unrepentant and unwilling to forsake his sin. We can and should pray for such persons, but it is not always appropriate to pray for them in this manner.

Fr David Moser

[Michael Astley]

I've been catching up on this and would like to thank you all for this discussion, and especially Fathers Raphael and Matthew, and Andreas, for your insights into the proper custom surrounding the commemorations at the proskomede. I had not properly understood the nature of these commemorations and, when I encountered it in somebody's words elsewhere, struggled very much with what I perceived to be a reticence to pray for the non-Orthodox. I now have a better understanding of what this means and why it is so, and it seems very much to be correct practice to only commemorate the Orthodox at this point.

These portions of bread, each offered for one of those commemorated, stand on the diskos along with the Lamb as it becomes the Body of Christ, actively symbolising the gathered Body of Christ around, and in union with, Christ the Head. They are then placed in the chalice, as they are washed in the Blood of the Lamb and infused with the divine grace trhat flows therefrom. This stems from their Eucharistic union with the Church of which they are part, and now that I undertsand, it does not seem proper to commemorate the non-Orthodox in this way. I understand that this in no way implies any lack of charity or desire to pray for tne non-Orthodox. We do so at the Augmented Litany during the Liturgy, and at other times in our prayers. It is just a different matter from participation in the Eucharist.

I think that the practice of commemorating the non-Orthodox here stems from a misplaced generosity, perhaps based on the same misunderstanding of the meaning of the proskomede. I can understand how it could be diffiuclt if this is what people have been allowed to become accustomed to only to suddenly have it changed, and it mjst be handled sensitively, but the error seems not to lie with those who restore correct practice, except perhaps in the manner in which it is handled.

Thank you, again, for your help and teaching.

In Christ,
Michael

[Michael Astley]

To help to get a better understanding of this, I looked last night at the Proskomede and saw all the more how it is very much tied up with the communion of the Church, with the Mother of God Commemorated, and the Baptist, and numerous Saints, and the hierarchy, and so forth.

I am currently re-writing my pomyannik so that I can keep a separate list for prayers at home and have only Orthodox people on the list for the proskomede and wondered whether it is proper to include the name of my bishop in light of the fact that he is already commemorated anyway.

Thank you for your help.

[Father David Moser]

whether it is proper to include the name of my bishop in light of the fact that he is already commemorated anyway.

These are your intercessions - if you would normally pray for your bishop then it is certainly appropriate to include his name in your pomyanik.

Fr David Moser

[Michael Astley]

Thank you, Father David.

[Andreas Moran]

Someone I know here in Moscow is upset because they have heard an anouncement from the priest at their church that names of the living given for the proskomidi can only include the names of those who are in good order with the Church, and attend church and partake of the sacraments regularly. Absent any such directive from the Moscow Patriarchate, I would say that this priest is making it up as he goes along.

Addendum. Apart from anything else, would not complying with this priest's instruction not be tantamount to judging one's neighbour? Which may be the answer to my own earlier question.

[Olga]

Apart from anything else, would not complying with this priest's instruction not be tantamount to judging one's neighbour? Which may be the answer to my own earlier question.

A correction to this, with Andreas' permission, to remove the double negative:

Apart from anything else, would not complying with this priest's instruction be tantamount to judging one's neighbour? Which may be the answer to my own earlier question.

[Andreas Moran]

Thank you, Olga! Well - wouldn't it?

[Olga]

an announcement from the priest at their church that names of the living given for the proskomidi can only include the names of those who are in good order with the Church, and attend church and partake of the sacraments regularly.

This strange advice certainly flies in the face of Christ's own words in Matthew 5:

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

[Herman Blaydoe]

To encourage people to be members in good standing and to attend Church and partake of the sacraments regularly.
Nothing stops people from praying THEMSELVES for these people regardless in their private prayers.
The priest (bishop?) certainly has the authority to set the bar for those to be commemorated at the proskomidi. If we say only Orthodox Christians are to be commemorated, why can't we add "in good standing"?
If a person doesn't KNOW if another parishioner is regularly attending Church and partaking of the sacraments, then that person might want to spend time getting to know others better, maybe by attending the services more often themselves? Just a little thought from a bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Andreas Moran]

In response to Herman, I don't think 1. would work - if a person were so concerned about himself, he'd get himself to church. 2. True, of course. 3. I don't know, but does a priest have that authority? I suppose a bishop does, but that's not helpful in a place like Moscow where there are more bishops than you can shake a stick at, and I would have thought some uniformity in practice was desirable; there are many here who go to various churches, or, if they are in a parish, they will call in a church as they are passing to hand in some names.

But a person can appear to be in good standing and actually not - I'm sure we all know of 'devout church people' who wouldn't give a blind man a light, and conversely, there must be those who don't show up at church so often but show real love for their neighbours. So I ask again - is not what this priest said an invitation to judge our neighbour, to say that this person is worthy of being on the list and that person not? A possible exception might be where we know a person lives a grossly sinful life and has no intention of changing it - then Herman's 2. comes into play.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I suppose that it depends on exactly what the priest meant when he said this. Maybe he was trying to just establish some sort of guidelines.

In any case here since so many people use commemorative books (pomyaniki) the rule is that the names be of those who are Orthodox. This is because the particles taken out of the prosphorki for each person are then placed into the consecrated Cup after the people's communion.

However this rule is only general and there can be different interpretations such as if the person is fallen away from the Church or is part of a schismatic group. Here as others have pointed out there are so many gradations that it is very difficult at times to establish a hard and fast rule. For example in the commemorative books I come across there are many names of the children now well grown up and who never attend church. These though I still read in hope of God's mercy.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

There is the opinion that names ought to be written afresh each time so that the person writing them has those people more prayerfully in mind, and the priest also does not see the names repeated mechanically. It is an opinion with which I have some sympathy.

I would still like to know if anyone else thinks that what the priest in Moscow said ('allegedly', if preferred) tends to judgment of others. No one in my wife's family has ever heard this said before in Moscow. Give the names (of all but the most obviously fallen away from the Church) and let Christ be the Judge?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I cannot speak of what another priest said and so far away. It could well be after all, that he was addressing some particular situation that he felt acutely about. And when this occurs it often is of real worth to hear the basic spiritual point of what was said, especially in a country with millions of real, possible, potential, questionable, etc believers.

But still- here I would go with the general rule that we have here in N America that one can submit the names of all those who are Orthodox. It saves us the risk of trying to sort out what is often not possible to sort out. Plus the tradition of the pomyanik here in N America is a kind of spiritual investment for an entire family that I deeply appreciate. After all maybe third generation Bobby/Vladimir do not much care about the Church anymore. But there's their name in the pomyanik showing that grandma and grandpa still very much care about them in terms of the Church; sometimes even when grandma & grandma have already reposed years ago!

In Christ
-Fr Raphael