The incarnation and the Church

[Celinda Grace]

There have been some on this board that have proposed we must locate the Church exclusively within the OC and some that defend a more universal idea of the Church. Ultimately I think that neither of these views can stand alone and we must find some union of the two. I have had a few thoughts on this recently that I thought I would throw out for consideration.

If we say that the Church is Christ and that Christ is “everywhere present and filleth all things” then all of creation becomes the Church. I think that there is a lot of truth in this. In a way we can say that the only thing that exists is the Church. However at the fall Adam started living in death, corruption and the tendency toward non-existence and so what we see today is that within the world there are many places that suffer from this tendency toward the death and non-existence of the Church. Other religions may have some of the Way, the Truth or the Life, but these always contain corruption and are tending toward death.

Some time ago a friend of mine asked me how we could be sure that there would not be a second fall. I replied that our guarentee is the Incarnation. Within the Incarnate Christ the human and divine natures are inseparably joined thus in Christ there is no possibility of a second fall. In the Incarnation corruption and death -separation from God - becomes an impossiblity.

One thing I have had the opportunity to notice over and over about the OC is that it living in the Incarnation. I see in the Orthodox saints that there is a love for and participation in God balanced by and equal love for and participation in humanity. St. Silouan seems to me to epitomize this. We have talked elsewhere that the Orthodox mindset is incarnational, the worship through use of the Icons is Incarnational. Through the sacraments, with of course the Eucharist at the center, the Incarnation is proclaimed and participated in and of course the OC's very claim for itself -- that it is The Body of Christ is undeniably incarnational.

Thus only in the OC, because it alone is living in the Incarnation, is the tendency toward the non-existence of the Church negated. Only here is there a guraentee that there will be no second fall. As Fr. Raphael has said elsewhere -only within the OC is there a continual pentecost.

It is truly meet to call thee blest, the Theotokos, the ever-blessed and all immaculate, and Mother of our God. more honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious then the Seraphim, thee who without corruption gaveth birth to God the Word, the very Theotokos, thee do we magnify.

[Antonios]

Thus only in the OC, because it alone is living in the Incarnation, is the tendency toward the non-existence of the Church negated. Only here is there a guraentee that there will be no second fall.


Dear Celinda,

I think I understanding what your saying, but I must confess I am a little confused. The OC is not alone in living in the Incarnation- all of creation is. Perhaps, I misunderstand what you mean by 'living in the Incarnation'?

Also, when you say that the "tendency toward the non-existence of the Church is negated", are you referring specifically to sacramental living, such as partaking of the Eucharist? Please help me understand. Thank you.

Antonios

[Celinda Grace]

Dear Celinda,

I think I understanding what your saying, but I must confess I am a little confused. The OC is not alone in living in the Incarnation- all of creation is. Perhaps, I misunderstand what you mean by 'living in the Incarnation'?

Antonios

I would say all creation participates in the Incarnation. When I say 'living in' I mean that we are experiencing, consciously involved in this reality as our own personal reality.

It is like a fish that has suddenly become aware that it is living in the water.


Also, when you say that the "tendency toward the non-existence of the Church is negated", are you referring specifically to sacramental living, such as partaking of the Eucharist? Please help me understand. Thank you.

I was simply referring to the tendency outside of Jesus Christ for the religious impulse of man to go astray. Truth is gained, but it is then corrupted and lost. Then God in His grace may bring about a renewal or reawakening of some kind, but always these die out after a while and the momentum toward God is lost. I do not beleive that the OC has the corner on truth, there is some amount of truth in every religion.

[Andrew]

I was simply referring to the tendency outside the OC for the religious impulse of man to go astray. Truth is gained, but it is then corrupted and lost. Then God in His grace may bring about a renewal or reawakening of some kind, but always these die out after a while and the momentum toward God is lost. I do not beleive that the OC has the corner on truth, there is some amount of truth in every religion.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you... man is an icon of God, and has an innate attraction to that which reflects Truth. The various religions and philosophies take a slight glimmer of what is true, and build an entire system around it. The Church, though, is the deified flesh and blood of the Truth Himself.

[Celinda Grace]

Antonios,

Here are some of the ways I see Church Tradition drawing people into the reality of living in the Incarnation.



The priest stands in the place of Christ,


The icons are a place where one can experience the reality of the union of spirit and flesh, eternity and time. Our body, eyes, mind and spirit can be simultaneously engaged in worship of Christ at the icon.

The Eucharist of course is the center point of participation in the Incarnation. The bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ -not as something to be scientifically or philosophically analyzed (ie transubstantiation vs consubstantiation), but as a real manifestation of the mystery of Incarnation made present for us.

The high place that Mary has in tradition comes from this understanding of the importance of the Incarnation.

Even the very claim of the Church to be The Body of Christ is an affirmation of its unique understanding of itself as participating in the Incarnation.

The hesychastic tradition of prayer in the heart is the place in prayer where the vision of God given by the Spirit is united with the vision of man known in the heart. In this I think the saints reach the epitome of an experiential knowledge of the Incarnation -to know God, to know man and to know and be the God-man.
There is nothing new under the sun just ways to repeat the same old stuff. Likewise what I said about corruption outside of living in the full experience of Christ is not new.


John 15:5-6"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

[Antonios]

Antonios,

Here are some of the ways I see Church Tradition drawing people into the reality of living in the Incarnation.



The priest stands in the place of Christ,
The icons are a place where one can experience the reality of the union of spirit and flesh, eternity and time. Our body, eyes, mind and spirit can be simultaneously engaged in worship of Christ at the icon.
The Eucharist of course is the center point of participation in the Incarnation. The bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ -not as something to be scientifically or philosophically analyzed (ie transubstantiation vs consubstantiation), but as a real manifestation of the mystery of Incarnation made present for us.
The high place that Mary has in tradition comes from this understanding of the importance of the Incarnation.
Even the very claim of the Church to be The Body of Christ is an affirmation of its unique understanding of itself as participating in the Incarnation.
The hesychastic tradition of prayer in the heart is the place in prayer where the vision of God given by the Spirit is united with the vision of man known in the heart. In this I think the saints reach the epitome of an experiential knowledge of the Incarnation -to know God, to know man and to know and be the God-man.There is nothing new under the sun just ways to repeat the same old stuff. Likewise what I said about corruption outside of living in the full experience of Christ is not new.

Dear Celinda,

This is what I've always believed, and I thank your for your helpful way in explaining it. The truth is that we all live in 3 dimensional space. How else could we worship our God Who entered into that created space and deified it through pure love on a cross. This is worshipping God in Spirit and Truth. There can be no other way.

But while living the Incarnational life, as you've described it, is what the Christian lives for, the aim, that is, the goal of the Christian is always for living the Risen life. This is what the Christian dies for! And if that Christian is a saint, then while carrying his cross and following his Lord.

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth".

So while the Truth was crucified in three dimensional space and while His Redeeming Blood ran down the cross through the passing moments of time, so our worship must be similarly generated, always being guided to fullness with the Spirit of Truth.

[John Charmley]

http://www.britishorthodox.org/kingslynn.phpDear Celinda,

I had not thought to join in this thread, partly because in the one that preceded it we had pretty well canvassed the answers that fell within the TOU, and partly because the utility of such discussions tends to be limited; but you make such interesting points, as do the other posters, that I am prompted to a few words.

You say:

Thus only in the OC, because it alone is living in the Incarnation, is the tendency toward the non-existence of the Church negated. Only here is there a guraentee that there will be no second fall. As Fr. Raphael has said elsewhere -only within the OC is there a continual pentecost.
Which is to say what any Orthodox Christian would say; it is also to say what my Roman Catholic friends say - and usually with the same set of supporting arguments; in the end we can only state what we believe; faith may seek reason, but it remains faith all the same.

Where is the Church? We usually say (expecting to meet nods) that it is not a building; but sometimes life brings us lessons about even such safe statements.

My own Church meets in what in England we call a 'tin tabernacle'; that is a small corrugated iron building. It sits in an isolated spot on the Royal Estate at Sandringham, which is probably why it is the only tin tablernacle I have ever seen with a thatched roof. We have a small, elderly, congregation, and we recently lost our priest to retirement to another part of the country. The building, which we have occupied for seven years, was looking the worse for wear, and with the priest gone and the congregation down to single figures, and with myself (at 52) the youngest member by a decade and more, frankly the future looked both bleak and decidedly short-term. Where, indeed, I thought, was the Church?

Since April our bishop (a non-driver) has been driven the two and a half hour drive each way every two weeks to conduct the Liturgy, and back in June he suggested a had a 'work day' at the Church to clear away the wilderness that surrounds it, and to repair and redecorate and repaint. Quite where all the folk needed to do this were coming from no one could say. Yesterday was the appointed day.

As I have a drive of an hour and a half to Church, I turned up a little later than the 9 am starting time. When I arrived at 9.30 there were already fifteen people there; by 10 am there were twenty. Some were Orthodox Christians who had driven three hours to be with us; most were Christians belonging to other Churches who had heard what we were doing and 'just wanted to help'. With the bishop himself clearing the brushwood, I set to digging to clear the area around the walls - with an Anglican on one side of me and a Methodist on the other; across the way two Catholics were sanding down our windows, and three Anglicans were painting them. Where was the Church - well, on a (thank the Lord) coolish September morning as I shovelled yet another mound of earth into a wheelbarrow for my Anglican friend to take away - I looked around me and I saw it visible.

As the Deacon read this from the Epistle of St. James this morning:

1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
1:24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
1:25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
an Orthodox congregation got as close as you could get to uttering 'amen brother, amen sister.'

And afterwards, we walked outside into the bright sunshine of a perfect Norfolk September morning, and the Church gleamed - and I don't just mean the building.

In Christ,

John

www.britishorthodox.org/kingslynn.php
http://www.britishorthodox.org/kingslynn.php

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Celinda and others,

I thank you for the comments on the nature of the incarnation in the life of the Church.

The exceptional energy with which the early fathers address the question of Christ's divinity by nature in relation to humanity's divinisation, divinity by adoption, relates exactly to this question of the incarnational stature of Christian life. This 'Christological question' of the Son's natural divinity ('of the ousia of the Father... begotten not made... homoousios with the Father...') is of fundamental importance to the way of Christian life. So when St Cyril of Jerusalem writes of Christ:
'throughout His being—a being by eternal generation—He holds His royal dignity, and shares the Father's seat, being God and Wisdom and Power, [...] reigning together with the Father'
he makes a statement that is more than simply a dogmatic definition of the nature of the Son. This is ecclesiology at its foundational level: the Church as the body, the corpus, of the one Son who is divine in this way - and as whose body fills us with his eternal divinity in a befitting manner of adoption. Cyril uses this definition as part of his catechetical project for those about to enter the Church, not because he expects them to become masters of a wrote theology, but because this Christological confession is the very confession of him whose body the Church is.

The Church lives the incarnation. St Cyril goes on to say that the Son 'knoweth Him that hath begotten Him', and it is this incarnate one that the Father is made known to creation. All of Christian life is about being borne up into the life of this Son-made-human, in whom, through the Spirit, the Father is known and seen.