Depression

[Mary]

I'm not absolutely certain if this is the right place to post this topic. But I'll get it started, since the moderators know how to move things around if they're in the wrong place... (thank you). =)

I've been in and out of depression most of my life. And I've been noticing that more and more people I talk to, mention their depression. In fact, it seems to be as ordinary as saying "I'm hungry" or "I'm thirsty". Why is that?

Not quite two weeks ago, I went through another round of darkness and talking to my friends here, really, really helped. It was far more effective that talking to a trained councellor - which I did 5 yrs ago. I wouldn't have agreed to those sessions if they hadn't been paid for. In my opinion, true listening is priceless, and when the listener knows how to end a conversation in exaclty an hour, it's not a true conversation. But, for those who have no one to talk to, it's good to pay someone for a listening ear. And at that time, my only option was to talk to a stranger, because those who knew me the most seemed to want to flee from me.

Anyways, I like the strength of my new friends, because they haven't fled yet. =) Thank you.

One friend found me the following article: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/MorelliDepression.php It wasn't until I read that article that I realized how serious depression is, and also, that I truly do suffer from depression, and not just mood swings!

And another one that was recommended to me was: "Steps of Transformation" (http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Transformation-Orthodox-Priest-Explores/dp/1888212632) by Fr. Meletios Weber - which I haven't read yet, but plan to. I'll let you know what I think.

But, I was wondering, if others would be willing to share other resources useful for dealing with depression? Orthodox resources. Of course, you can mention other stuff to, but please specify that it's not orthodox, because I honestly don't have the desire or the energy to wade through other stuff. If it's available online, even better. (Even if I have to pay for it!) =)

In Christ,
Mary

PS - My darkness left me last week - when God's love broke through and touched some dead parts of me. He is such a good God! I'd like to keep feeling that love, it's so much better than the death that I was feeling. Is there some way of not losing it? OR am I going to lose it, and I'll just have to learn how to find it everytime I lose it?

[Andreas Moran]

There is extraordinary power in the Psalms. A few months before I met Bishop Eirenaios, I lost my job (corporate real estate lawyer in very big outfit). I suffered depression of a sort but more so it was terrible panic attacks. Providentially, I met the Bishop and he gave me a list of Psalms to read. I wasn't Orthodox or practising Christian then. I went to my doctor, a devout Hindu. We talked a long time, and he said, 'far better to follow the advice of your bishop and read the Psalms rather than have any medication I can give you'. The problem didn't go away, not for some years, but the Psalms gave me the means of managing the problem, plus, of course, I became Orthodox a few months after all that started.
The Psalms are (Hebrew numbering): 27, 32, 34, 38, 39, 40, 41, 51, 65, 71, 77, 102, 119, and 150.

[Katerina]

I'm not absolutely certain if this is the right place to post this topic. But I'll get it started, since the moderators know how to move things around if they're in the wrong place... (thank you). =)

I've been in and out of depression most of my life. And I've been noticing that more and more people I talk to, mention their depression. In fact, it seems to be as ordinary as saying "I'm hungry" or "I'm thirsty". Why is that?

Not quite two weeks ago, I went through another round of darkness and talking to my friends here, really, really helped. It was far more effective that talking to a trained councellor - which I did 5 yrs ago. I wouldn't have agreed to those sessions if they hadn't been paid for. In my opinion, true listening is priceless, and when the listener knows how to end a conversation in exaclty an hour, it's not a true conversation. But, for those who have no one to talk to, it's good to pay someone for a listening ear. And at that time, my only option was to talk to a stranger, because those who knew me the most seemed to want to flee from me.

Anyways, I like the strength of my new friends, because they haven't fled yet. =) Thank you.

One friend found me the following article: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/MorelliDepression.php It wasn't until I read that article that I realized how serious depression is, and also, that I truly do suffer from depression, and not just mood swings!

And another one that was recommended to me was: "Steps of Transformation" (http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Transformation-Orthodox-Priest-Explores/dp/1888212632) by Fr. Meletios Weber - which I haven't read yet, but plan to. I'll let you know what I think.

But, I was wondering, if others would be willing to share other resources useful for dealing with depression? Orthodox resources. Of course, you can mention other stuff to, but please specify that it's not orthodox, because I honestly don't have the desire or the energy to wade through other stuff. If it's available online, even better. (Even if I have to pay for it!) =)

In Christ,
Mary

PS - My darkness left me last week - when God's love broke through and touched some dead parts of me. He is such a good God! I'd like to keep feeling that love, it's so much better than the death that I was feeling. Is there some way of not losing it? OR am I going to lose it, and I'll just have to learn how to find it everytime I lose it?

Mary, I so understand your struggle! I had almost 5 years of depression, but I persevered with prayer, lots of tears and confession. God hears, He heals, just as you have experienced...feel that Heavenly Love, be thankful for it, and pray every day to keep the evil one at bay (yes, he is the one that senses the least bit of despair or unhappiness and grabs the chance to run with it and have you go in his direction). Prayer is the best remedy, and Andreas' suggestion of the Psalms is wonderful, as they are such are such a balm to the heart.

A most wonderful book that I had found at the time that was my constant companion was called : "Heavenly Wisdom from God-Illumined Teachers on Conquring Depression". It is from the St. Herman of Aaska Brotherhood. Perhaps www.light-n-life.com (http://www.light-n-life.com) may have it, as they are the biggest supplier of Orthodox materials. This book not only explains depression, but has the most wonderful quotes from saints, and prayers to the Mother of God, your Guardian Angel, etc. SUCH a comfort and truly gave me the strength to pull myself out of that dark hole along with my spiritual father , confession and recieving the Holy Gifts.

Revel in the wonders of the Glory of God! He does, in His infinite wisdom give us a foretaste of Paradise in different ways during our lifetime, and that is to sustain us in times of difficulty, so we remember that sweetness, and long for it again and struggle towards it for our salvation. Without struggle, life would be nothing. Yes, we will always have that back and forth struggle of maintaining, but it is all so worth it when we know what awaits!

May God bless you and keep you well.

In IC XC,
Katerina

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Very good things written above.

We also need to keep in mind that as creatures of God we are far more spiritually sensitive to what is going on around us than we are usually aware of.

The comment above about so much depression is true, as is the disturbed behaviour of young people and children of all ages. Of course there is the condition of the home which often is agitated nowadays sometimes in ways we don't immediately think of. All of the sights and sounds we surround ourselves with affects our hearts as surely as a fish is affected by the water it swims in. But one can also see the suffering and agitation of others even when one cannot point to one's immediate environment. Again, it could well be that we suffer the groans of creation in ways difficult for us to see.

What is most needed in this suffering is turning to the Church. Because depression and other afflictions often come joined to the temptation of self-isolation the tendency at times is to turn away from the one place we should turn to- the Church.

On the other hand many of these afflictions often are accompanied by the temptation of selfishness to a remarkable degree. Who knows how much of what we suffer is actually rooted in this self-imposed selfishness which we do not see? There is a tendency, especially in our self-regarding age, of drawing everything inwards in relation to oneself. This goes especially with suffering which easily becomes a way of legitimizing a form of self-centredness. Once having fallen into this we only increase our isolation and misery.

This is why it is so crucial to turn to the Church in this kind of suffering. Only in this way do we gradually find our balance point discovering that in Christ all suffering serves to the purifying of the inner man while recognizing the sin that selfishly accompanies our suffering and trying to avoid this.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andreas Moran]

I can't think off hand of Christ in the NT healing anyone of depression or mental illness - or have I forgotten something? I seem to recall, though, that some Holy Fathers mention depression.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Andreas wrote:


I seem to recall, though, that some Holy Fathers mention depression.

The monastic Fathers speak a lot about despondency (acidie). This can be quite prevalent in the ascetic life. But I'm not sure that they mean the same thing as what we mean by depression.

But I could be wrong or there could be overlap between the two. Some of the symptoms sound similar: despair & lethargy to name the two main ones.

This certainly would be a proper discussion for the times we live in.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

The monastic Fathers speak a lot about despondency (acidie). This can be quite prevalent in the ascetic life. But I'm not sure that they mean the same thing as what we mean by depression.

But I could be wrong or there could be overlap between the two. Some of the symptoms sound similar: despair & lethargy to name the two main ones.


I do believe, father that these are nearly the same thing, however, what we speak of in modern times as "depression" seems to be an extreme form of "accidie" which was considered to be a normal part of our fallen nature - one of the temptations against which we all must struggle. But depression has somehow been changed into an illness against which we are powerless and must put our hope in drugs or therapy to get rid of it for us. Medication and therapy are good things - but they only address the symptoms of depression/accidie and not the root cause (which is invariably spiritual in nature - the result of our fallen nature). Medication and therapy are tools which can help manage the intensity of the symptoms or help us get a hold of the symptoms so that we can wrestle with them, but in the end, the only true cure of depression is ascetic labor and the grace of God. So, in addition to the worldly therapies it is necessary that we who are Orthodox Christians and who place our hope in Christ to fast and pray and participate in the sacraments (especially confession and Holy Communion) as often as possible.

Fr David Moser

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

What you wrote is very interesting Father. Connected to what I pointed out above there is an aspect of depression which can be dealt with by the use of our free will. But yet the modern depiction of depression as an illness implies that we are incapable of really doing anything about it ourselves except for dealing with symptoms. All we can do, we think, to get to the cause is turn to outside professional help, the use of medications, etc.

While not denying that professional help could very well have a place, what we are both saying I think is that there is an aspect of depression which can very well be addressed by the use of our free will. Not to end the suffering but rather to address our passionate and selfish responses to this suffering. In a word nowadays we notice that we suffer. But we often do not see how we disfigure & increase our suffering through our own passionate response to what we are undergoing.

It's just a thought, but at this point for those who suffer depression it may be best to guide them into how to suffer in simplicity.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Peter S.]

There is extraordinary power in the Psalms.

The Psalms are (Hebrew numbering): 27, 32, 34, 38, 39, 40, 41, 51, 65, 71, 77, 102, 119, and 150.

I take some medicines and have discussed taking some medicines against depression with my doctor.

I also find that there is a good power from reading the Psalms,and now I know which ones are especially good to read against this illness. The few times I read the Psalms I get a feeling of meaningfullness, seriousness and hope, and that is what I need in the times of depression. David also struggled in his life and he had hope in God.

For me it has first of all been the truth,belief and thought of the Ressurrection of Christ and what this means for me/us, that has helped me. There is a light from this truth.

"Be of good courage" my parishpriest tells me, and thinking of that has also helped me.

Peter

[Father David Moser]

there is an aspect of depression which can be dealt with by the use of our free will. ... what we are both saying I think is that there is an aspect of depression which can very well be addressed by the use of our free will.

In this vein, the cognitive approach to psychological therapy seems to me to be one of the more compatible with the Orthodox spiritual life. Cognitive therapy takes the approach of "readjusting" our thinking, how we interpret the world around us. As presented by its secular practitioners, cognitive therapy still does not approach the spiritual root, but it is a tool which can be easily adapted to do so.


Not to end the suffering but rather to address our passionate and selfish responses to this suffering. In a word nowadays we notice that we suffer. But we often do not see how we disfigure & increase our suffering through our own passionate response to what we are undergoing.

It's just a thought, but at this point for those who suffer depression it may be best to guide them into how to suffer in simplicity.


And here is exactly where secular therapies and Orthodoxy come into conflict. The secular world sees no value in suffering and therefore seeks to eliminate all discomfort. We know that there is great spiritual benefit in suffering if it is utilized in the proper fashion and therefore our goal is not to eliminate discomfort but rather to embrace it and use it to our spiritual benefit.

Fr David Moser

[Katerina]

In this vein, the cognitive approach to psychological therapy seems to me to be one of the more compatible with the Orthodox spiritual life. Cognitive therapy takes the approach of "readjusting" our thinking, how we interpret the world around us. As presented by its secular practitioners, cognitive therapy still does not approach the spiritual root, but it is a tool which can be easily adapted to do so.



And here is exactly where secular therapies and Orthodoxy come into conflict. The secular world sees no value in suffering and therefore seeks to eliminate all discomfort. We know that there is great spiritual benefit in suffering if it is utilized in the proper fashion and therefore our goal is not to eliminate discomfort but rather to embrace it and use it to our spiritual benefit.

Fr David Moser

I completely understand and agree with what was said above! Sometimes, this is tough even amongst our own Orthodox to understand because of what society is pushing on about self esteem, especially in schools with young kids. This makes it equally as rough at home, because now of course, society makes it easy for kids to go against their parents! Thanks be to God that my own kids understand in their hearts and souls the way one should be, and that troubles and suffering ARE part of growing spiritually.

I remember having a conversation many years ago with someone of another faith (can't remember- maybe born again?), and when I mentioned to her that depression was a sin (as we Christians show through that that we have no hope in God and let ourselves wallow in despair), she was shocked! But all you have said explains that in a nutshell.

Katerina

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Fr David wrote:


And here is exactly where secular therapies and Orthodoxy come into conflict. The secular world sees no value in suffering and therefore seeks to eliminate all discomfort. We know that there is great spiritual benefit in suffering if it is utilized in the proper fashion and therefore our goal is not to eliminate discomfort but rather to embrace it and use it to our spiritual benefit.

It just happened that this morning in my 2007 Calendar from Russia, under the entry for today is the following from St Seraphim of Sarov:



In order to preserve peace of soul, one must drive off from oneself despair and try to have spiritual joy, according to the word of the wise Sirach: "sorrow has destroyed many, and there is no profit in it." (Sirach 30:23).

To preserve peace of soul we also must in every way possible avoid the condemnation of others. Through condescending to your brother and through silence you will preserve peace of soul.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Katerina]

I have a question where in addition to, of course praying wholeheartedly for a person when they are depressed, what is the best way in dealing with them? I mean a person who is REALLY close to you.
It is painful, when I personally know what it is like to be depressed since I battled with it for a few years, and with lots of prayer, confession and the Holy Gifts did I come out of it by the Grace of God. I totally understand why this person says what they do, they personalize everything (I remember doing this!), no matter if I talk or stay silent. Things are taken the wrong way when something totally benign is said...sometimes, I get angry because I lose patience and then, of course, nothing gets accomplished. But suggestions of going to get guidance and perhaps therapy go nowhere except for making the person feel flawed, bad, or that something is wrong with them, and of course, I am then so "good". I try to say little, but this too is misinterpreted. I know what this is like, because I WAS that way. I also know that until a person acknowledges that they need help and want to change their ways, it will be like this (like an alcoholic who cannot stop until THEY make the decision to).

I know I should endure, but I also would like to help, and feel like anything I say comes out wrong in their brain, and I know some of it is guilt on their part, and knowledge that something is wrong, but they are too afraid to admit it, so erego the "defense". I do feel helpless. Maybe I am asking a question that just has no answer to it, and I just need to pray harder and do my best to be patient.

In IC XC,
Katerina

[Mary]

I have a question where in addition to, of course praying wholeheartedly for a person when they are depressed, what is the best way in dealing with them? I know I should endure, but I also would like to help, and feel like anything I say comes out wrong in their brain, and I know some of it is guilt on their part, and knowledge that something is wrong, but they are too afraid to admit it, so erego the "defense". I do feel helpless. Maybe I am asking a question that just has no answer to it, and I just need to pray harder and do my best to be patient.

In IC XC,
Katerina

Dear Katerina,

I've been puzzling over this myself, as I find myself in a place I've never been before. I should probably quiz my friends and ask them how it is that they put up with me because it is through them that God's love touched me. They listened and they got involved. They didn't judge my irrational thoughts. And they were ever and ever so patient. They made me think about my feelings and thoughts, asking questions that helped me dig in the right direction and get to the bottom of me feelings.

I've been reading orthodox stuff for only a year, so I hardly know anything. And it was really helpful for me when they said "This is what So & So says..." instead of just telling me what book to read. I've been annoying, and clingy and a total pain, but they never treated me like I was. They answered every question I had - even questions I'd already asked before.

They also didn't pamper me and join my pity parties. I'm sure they did a lot of praying for me. What happened a few weeks back was different from all my other bouts of depression. I was acutely aware of the fact that my feelings were not at all dependent on my circumstances. There was absolutely nothing happening that week that was in anyway hurtful, infact, there were many things happening that were actually really good, and should've made me feel like I was in heaven. (ok - close to heaven...)

So, when I started feeling like God had abandoned me, I knew something was really, really, wrong. But, knowing wasnt' enough, because my feelings continued to get worse till the point of actual physical pain. I had always thought that surely I could control my feelings, but the truth is, I couldn't. But, in the midst of my irrational pain, I realized that I could still control my actions. I didn't have to lash out in pain, no one was hurting me! Things outside were still normal. But it would be easy to give in to the pain and just throw a tantrum... only, now I knew it would be a tantrum and that's not acceptable even for a 2 yr old.

That's when my friend sent me the article above (in my first post) and as I read through it, I realized I had a little bit of all the symptoms, but especially the 8th of the cognitive disorders.


Emotional Reasoning: The judgment that one's feelings are facts. Sandy had a feeling that her new boss did not like her. When asked how she knows this she responds that her "feelings are always right". She failed to distinguish between the fact that although feelings are real, feelings cannot prove whether something is true or false. I tell my patients that no matter how strongly some people "felt" the world was flat when Christopher Columbus set sail, Columbus proved the world was round. Feelings are not facts.


To be totally honest, if my friends had told me that, I wouldn't have believed them. I needed to experience that week of good things happening in the midst of miserable feelings to know that that was true. I still didn't give in right away. I knew my feelings just hadn't appeared in a vacuum. And I spent some time examining my feelings, trying to get to the bottom of them, and finding out where they came from.

My friend's question helped me with that: What are you afraid will happen or not happen? And as I dug into my feelings and fears, I realized that they were based on lies. Lies that I had picked up from around me as a child. Most weren't even directed at me. I had used the logic of a child to come to my conclusions and I was stuck there. For example: My mom would say something nice about another girl - her curly hair or her perfectly shaped nose or her ability to do something or other - and I'd look at myself - my hair was straight, I have a big nose, there's much I can't do. So I concluded that my mom didn't truly love me, she only just put up with me because she just had to make do with what God had dumped on her. And there was nothing my mom could've said that could've convinced me that she truly did love me, regardless of what I looked like.

And that's the way it worked all of my life, with every friend I've ever made, I used that same childish logic to evaluate myself and fell short all the time. But it's all a lie. I do not make friends myself, based on their looks or their abilities! And yet, it was so hard for me to believe that I could be loved the same way. And it was FEAR that kept God's love, and everyone else's love out. Well, that's what I discovered this time, and it may or may not be similar to what others experience.

All I know is, at the bottom of my feelings that I depended on so much, were great big lies. And like everyone else has mentioned above, Confession is a Life saver! I was told I could confess feelings, and that was such good news. I've confessed thoughts before, but never feelings. I don't know If I'll have to deal with it again in such a great magnitude. I've learned so much this time, and it's hard for me to imagine that I'll fall for it again. But knowing my weakness, and as another friend pointed out - that it sounded a lot like a bad habit that I'd gotten into! - I'll probably hit another wall. Who can tell how long it will take to replace all those lies with the Truth?!

In the meantime I've decided to see if my herbal bandaid will help keep my chemicals balanced. I hate medicines, but if I'm bleading to death it would be foolish to refuse a bandage to stop the bleeding. Even paper cuts hurt really bad, even though they're not life-threatening.

In Christ,
Mary

[Katerina]

Dear Katerina,

I've been puzzling over this myself, as I find myself in a place I've never been before. I should probably quiz my friends and ask them how it is that they put up with me because it is through them that God's love touched me. They listened and they got involved. They didn't judge my irrational thoughts. And they were ever and ever so patient. They made me think about my feelings and thoughts, asking questions that helped me dig in the right direction and get to the bottom of me feelings.

Dear Mary! What wonderful, loving friends you have.
I remember my very best friend being depressed, and I had so much love for her, that it pained me to see her suffer so much. I myself could not understand it AT ALL, because up to that point, I had never experienced depression, but I tried, doing the same things your friends did. She struggled a lot, but kept praying, seeking because she RECOGNIZED and wanted the help, and she found peace.


I've been reading orthodox stuff for only a year, so I hardly know anything. And it was really helpful for me when they said "This is what So & So says..." instead of just telling me what book to read. I've been annoying, and clingy and a total pain, but they never treated me like I was. They answered every question I had - even questions I'd already asked before.

I wish I could tell this person what your friends did,...but this person DOES NOT think he is depressed! If I go that route, it is irritation, defensiveness and irrational anger. I don't think he is at that point, although it has been a few years already and the pattern is the same, where the questions are being asked in his head. I know that he needs therapy to work out some things from a broken childhood, but when that is brought up, it is then said that this is over already a long time, and that talking about it or "analyzing" it wouldn't solve anything. In other words, I personally think it is a matter of making him feel like something is "wrong" with him if he does this.


They also didn't pamper me and join my pity parties. I'm sure they did a lot of praying for me. What happened a few weeks back was different from all my other bouts of depression. I was acutely aware of the fact that my feelings were not at all dependent on my circumstances. There was absolutely nothing happening that week that was in anyway hurtful, infact, there were many things happening that were actually really good, and should've made me feel like I was in heaven. (ok - close to heaven...)

So, when I started feeling like God had abandoned me, I knew something was really, really, wrong. But, knowing wasnt' enough, because my feelings continued to get worse till the point of actual physical pain. I had always thought that surely I could control my feelings, but the truth is, I couldn't. But, in the midst of my irrational pain, I realized that I could still control my actions. I didn't have to lash out in pain, no one was hurting me! Things outside were still normal. But it would be easy to give in to the pain and just throw a tantrum... only, now I knew it would be a tantrum and that's not acceptable even for a 2 yr old.

That's when my friend sent me the article above (in my first post) and as I read through it, I realized I had a little bit of all the symptoms, but especially the 8th of the cognitive disorders.

I read through the article you sent above- a gem! Thank you for sharing. I recognize myself in those, when I was badly depressed those many years back. I now know that this person has those same symptoms. It is now something I hope and pray to somehow bring to his attention so he can see it and reflect on it.



Lies that I had picked up from around me as a child. Most weren't even directed at me. I had used the logic of a child to come to my conclusions and I was stuck there. For example: My mom would say something nice about another girl - her curly hair or her perfectly shaped nose or her ability to do something or other - and I'd look at myself - my hair was straight, I have a big nose, there's much I can't do. So I concluded that my mom didn't truly love me, she only just put up with me because she just had to make do with what God had dumped on her. And there was nothing my mom could've said that could've convinced me that she truly did love me, regardless of what I looked like.

And that's the way it worked all of my life, with every friend I've ever made, I used that same childish logic to evaluate myself and fell short all the time. But it's all a lie. I do not make friends myself, based on their looks or their abilities! And yet, it was so hard for me to believe that I could be loved the same way. And it was FEAR that kept God's love, and everyone else's love out. Well, that's what I discovered this time, and it may or may not be similar to what others experience.

Yes, it is FEAR. I knew it and owned it for a time, and everthing you mention above is exactly what I am experiencing with this person, and I am in your mom's shoes...it dosen't matter what I say.


All I know is, at the bottom of my feelings that I depended on so much, were great big lies. And like everyone else has mentioned above, Confession is a Life saver! I was told I could confess feelings, and that was such good news. I've confessed thoughts before, but never feelings. I don't know If I'll have to deal with it again in such a great magnitude. I've learned so much this time, and it's hard for me to imagine that I'll fall for it again. But knowing my weakness, and as another friend pointed out - that it sounded a lot like a bad habit that I'd gotten into! - I'll probably hit another wall. Who can tell how long it will take to replace all those lies with the Truth?!

In the meantime I've decided to see if my herbal bandaid will help keep my chemicals balanced. I hate medicines, but if I'm bleading to death it would be foolish to refuse a bandage to stop the bleeding. Even paper cuts hurt really bad, even though they're not life-threatening.

In Christ,
Mary

Slowly, healing takes place. It has in your life, and now you KNOW. Even if you dip down because the evil one comes and likes to play with those that are weak and knows when we are down, you have already experienced hell, and know what that is like, so you will recognize more readily the feeling of starting to go that way again and avoid it at all costs with prayer and the rest of the medicines in the Orthodox church. How lucky we are! Herbal bandaids are good too, as God has given us every herb and seed....

Stay well, and thank you for your very open honesty about all this. It helps others!

May God bless you and keep you healthy!

In IC XC,
Katerina

[Mary]

Dear Mary! What wonderful, loving friends you have.... Slowly, healing takes place. It has in your life, and now you KNOW. Even if you dip down because the evil one comes and likes to play with those that are weak and knows when we are down, you have already experienced hell, and know what that is like, so you will recognize more readily the feeling of starting to go that way again and avoid it at all costs with prayer and the rest of the medicines in the Orthodox church. How lucky we are! Herbal bandaids are good too, as God has given us every herb and seed....

Stay well, and thank you for your very open honesty about all this. It helps others!

May God bless you and keep you healthy!

In IC XC,
Katerina

They are indeed wonderful friends! I'm glad they're more faithful than I am rebellious, because I would've been inconsolable if I'd succeeded in driving them away from me!

I do hope others continue to share the medicines in the Orthodox church. Here's a prayer I found, that touched the deadness in my soul... long before I even knew what the deadness was:

O my most blessed Queen, O Theotokos my hope,
Guardian of orphans, Intercessor for strangers,
Joy of the sorrowful, Protectress of the wronged;
Thou seest my misfortune; Thou seest mine affliction;
Help me for I am weak; feed me for I am a stranger.
Thou knowest mine offense, absolve it as thou wilt,
For I have no other help beside thee,
No other intercessor, nor good consoler except thee, O Mother of God.
Do thou preserve and protect me, unto ages of ages. Amen.

It's the same prayer that was at the end of that article - but this is the translation from the Jordanville prayer book.

The first time I heard it was at compline at the monastery we visted last year. And I didn't want it to end. I can still hear it in my head - a wonderful, hauntingly beautiful melody that seeps deep into the heart! They've just recorded a CD a few weeks ago, and I found out they have that song on there. I know what I want for Christmas! =)

Another friend of mine mentioned a book that I can't wait to get my hands on: A book by Metropolitan Hierotheos: The Orthodox Psychotherapy. She said it's about how to cure your soul - nothing new, just all the teachings of the Church just put together in a more focused fashion.

Has anyone read it?

In Christ,
Mary.

[Mary]

Dear Katerina,

I asked one of my friends his secret, and how it is that he puts up with me. I thought I'd hear pearls of wisdom and gems of truth and the key to unlock all my problems, and he says: "That's easy. I don't have to live with you. =)" !!!! LOL. That was totally hilarious. Just what I needed to hear.

But I do have an answer... even if he doesn't. Ha!

I said earlier that my mom couldn't have said anything that could've made me believe that she loved me. (Forgive me for picking on my mom, I'm sort of using her to embody everyone in my life, because I've related to everyone in the same way). But she wasn't stuck and helpless... there was a LOT she could've DONE!

First - she could've stopped being judgemental. We do not choose our looks or abilities. To appreciate each other or judge each other based on things we cannot control, is cruel, to say the least. Now, she didn't mean to hurt me when she complimented others. But her words were like knives left lying around, and I picked them up and stabbed myself with them.

Is it wrong to personalize what we hear? I heard my family and friends make fun of others who are not as 'perfect' as themselves. Why did I feel like they were talking about me? It is because I knew I wasn't perfect. The strangers get laughed at today, and tomorrow it will be my turn. To feel a part of the group, I too mocked others. But when I started to see that I had more in common with the person being mocked than the mockers... how could I trust those who did the mocking? It made no difference that they didn't do it out of a malicious heart.

And so, the way we treat OTHERS is very important. What we say about OTHERS is very important. Of course, it's hard to have perfect speech and conduct and we do get annoyed and we vent. But, can we not ask for forgiveness if we have lost self control and spoken ill of someone behind their backs? That's what I try to do, with my kids. They learn a lot from me. I am not always good at controlling my tongue. But I can put my flapping tongue to good use by asking for forgiveness!

Second... root yourself deep in God's love. What does this have to do with the person who is depressed? Everything! When I'm depressed, it's like I'm being tossed around in a violent storm. But the storm was inside of me. I needed an anchor, I needed strength, I needed something solid to hold on to. No human being can provide that strength to another, but God can. And for some reason, He does work through people. If you can be a strong anchor to hold to, while I am being tossed around, then you've saved my life.

I remember my last few days with my dad. He had come to visit me in nursing school. I'd never allowed my emotions to explode in front of anyone before. But in the four years that I'd been away from home, Dad and I wrote to each other several times a week (regular mail...) That's when we truly learned to understand each other. That's what helped me to be comfortable enough with him to allow my emotions to show. My father's response was a surprise to me. I could tell that he understood the depth of my frustration and anger, but it did not anger him. He gave me no words of pampering comfort like: "Oh, you poor child, who could she possibly be so insensitive to you..." And later when he met the woman I'd complained about (she was a teacher and also a far removed cousin) - he greeted her and spoke to her in the same way that he spoke to me! No anger, just lots of joy at meeting her and being with her! How could he be so good to her after I'd just told him how inconsiderate she'd been to me?!

But you know, if Dad had made my anger his own and torn her down, he wouldn't have helped me. Instead, he took my anger and put out the fire with his love. Inside his forgiveness of her, my anger towards her disappeared. I received my chance to vent, I had no anger left in me to continue venting. Dad made me feel loved, by not judging my anger even though it was a lot more than necessary. By not judging her, he confirmed to me that if I were to ever be as inconsiderate as her, he'd still treat me with love.

And lastly... I think God heals before we start to understand. The Blind man couldn't see Jesus until after his sight had been restored. It's true, like the blind man, I need to call out and ask for healing. But God does'nt expect me to see clearly when I'm blind. I do not know when I call to him if he's going to touch me, or if he's going to put spit and mud in my eyes. So, I suppose, it takes a lot of trust even to call out to God to heal me. For a long time, I avoided asking Him for help, because I was afraid of what might be expected of me if I were healed. I was not ready to do that which I thought was expected of me. I needed to get desperate enough, to the point of being willing to do the very thing I dreaded doing, before I could in all truth ask Him to heal me. Interesting thing is, the things I dreaded, dont' seem so dreadful anymore and they're not at all humiliating - like I thought they'd be! I must've been blind...

In Christ,
Mary.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Mary wrote:



Another friend of mine mentioned a book that I can't wait to get my hands on: A book by Metropolitan Hierotheos: The Orthodox Psychotherapy. She said it's about how to cure your soul - nothing new, just all the teachings of the Church just put together in a more focused fashion.

Has anyone read it?

I'm not sure I'd say there's anything that's "just all the teachings of the Church just put together in a more focused fashion" about the books of Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos. His books are especially Patristic in spirit and he has a gift for conveying the spiritual essence of the Fathers' theology. Whether it's the meaning of the Great Feasts or of St Gregory Palamas his books are some of the very best books to turn to.

As part of this his special focus is on how what the Church offers is actually a spiritual cure of the disease of sin and its fruit which is death- something very apropos for our times.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

As part of this his special focus is on how what the Church offers is actually a spiritual cure of the disease of sin and its fruit which is death- something very apropos for our times.

I'd kind of like to emphasize what Fr Raphael says here. The book Orthodox Psychotherapy has really nothing to do with what we in the west call "psychotherapy". It is not about mental illnesses or emotional disturbances per se. It is about the sickness of the soul and how it is cured through the life of the Church - particularly the ascetic life. It is a very dense (as in tightly packed) text and a very slow read - but well worth it. But if you're looking for some version of Orthodox bookstore pop psychology - this isn't it.

Fr David Moser

[Mary]

But I do have an answer... even if he doesn't. Ha!
In Christ,
Mary.

Dear friends,

Please forgive me for being so presumptous and presenting 'answers'. They're only ideas, and not even well thought through, because I wish to re-arrange them now, and add and subtract and be more accurate. Please feel free to tear my ideas appart and make them more useful.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Mary, I can't talk about depression from experience, but a first cousin and my s-i-l have both suffered. My cousin because her 16 year old son was killed in a car accident and my s-i-l apparently every autumn. They have both been on medication for years and it is only this year that they are well because of a new medication they are both taking. They have both been told, however, that you musn't stop this medication.

When I am angry or upset or just feeling as if I could explode I telephone two close friends I have. After speaking to either of them I usually feel better able to cope with my problems, or able to see the thing that upset me more clearly.

They do the same thing. They telephone, we talk and if needed, we get together for coffee and talk some more. Something else that helps me is housework - a good scrub and I'm usually feeling much more cheerful afterwards. Sounds trite but it works. Of course these are for every day upsets.

During the most difficult time in my life - when I nearly lost my son - I repeated the Jesus prayer continuously when I was active during the day, and prayed long and intensely in the morning and at night. These were my allies and strengthened me because I needed to be strong to help my son (and my husband).

Modern life, which has nearly destroyed the extended family life is extremely difficult. We are social creatures and when burdens are placed on our shoulders and we believe that we are carrying them alone, we become extremely susceptible to depression.


I found these articles which might help us to understand depression :

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/depression_fr_stephen.htm

http://www.antiochian.org/1141449331

There is also a course on coping with depression at :

http://www.goarch.org/en/archdiocese/departments/youth/youthworkers/sessions/goya_depression.asp


Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

This is from one of the above sites :

"God speaks to us

When you say “I’m too tired.”
God says, “I will give you rest” Matthew 11:28-30

When you say “Nobody really loves me”
God says, “I love you” John 3:16 and John 13:34

When you say “I can’t go on.”
God says “My grace is sufficient.” 2 Corinthians 12:9 and Psalm 91:15

When you say “I can’t figure things out.”
God say “I will direct your steps” Proverbs 3:5

When you say, “I can’t do it”
God says, “You can do all things in Christ.” Philippians 4:13

When you say, “I can’t forgive myself.”
God says, “I forgive you.” (I John 1:9 and Romans 8:1)

When you say, “I can’t manage”
God says, “I will supply all your needs.” Philippians 4:19

When you say “I am always worried and frustrated”
God says, “Cast all your cares on Me”
(I Peter 5:75)

When you say, “I feel all alone.”
God says, “I will never leave you or forsake you.”
(Hebrews 13:5)

Adapted from “Daily Vitamins for Hurting Hearts” by Anthony Coniaris"

[Thomas Brunson]

Hi Mary, I am reading a book Hw to Live a Holy Life by Metropolitan Gregory by Metropolitan Gregory Postnikov. In it he states that each morning we need to pray to the Lord for the unalterable will to belong always to the Lord from this day forward, and for keeping yourself from sin during the course of the day. Perhaps you can do that by praying each day also that the Lord will keep you from depression. Also you might ask for the intercession of St. John Maxomovitch. I will have you remembered in the Preparation of the Bread and Wine at Liturgy. May God Bless You and make His Face to shine upon you. and give you peace. +Thomas