When to speak and when to remain silent

[Paul Cowan]

Added 30-04-2007 #570
He whose will and desire in conversation is to establish his own opinion, even though what he says is true, should recognize that he is sick with the devil's disease. And if he behaves like this only in conversation with his equals, then perhaps the rebuke of his superiors may heal him. But if he acts in this way even with those who are greater and wiser than he, then his malady is humanly incurable.
- St John Climacus

This from the Patristic Fathers for this hour.

I recognize the wisdom of this passage. I wonder, when is it ok to speak? I am shy by nature. I don't often talk to others nor express my ideas. I was raised to keep my mouth shut (personally IMO to my harm as an adult) My father a loving yet strict disciplinarian didn't care much for hearing us kids.

As an adult, I follow this same conditioning. When in a group or even less people, I may have the answer to a question or problem but refrain from speaking mostly because others will not stop talking long enough to let me speak or cut me off before I finish my thought. So depending on the person(s) cutting me off, I just keep my wisdom (haha) to myself and let them carry on without my participation.

When is it appropriate to assert myself to the point of asking or telling the others to "shut up" and hear me? Yes, I may have the Devil's disease, but do I remain a mute at all times? This question stems mostly from work, but it has applications regarding religious topics as well. I know less than most anyway, but I feel at times I might contribute an enlightening analogy that might help.

Thanks
Paul

[Mary]

I don't have an answer. But this is the quote I came across when I just logged on:



Abba Antony once said, 'Whoever sits in solitude and is quiet has escaped three wars: those of hearing, speaking and seeing. Then there is only one war left in which to fight, and that is the battle for your own heart'.
- Apothegmata Patrum (Latin ed.)





In Christ,
Mary.

[Effie Ganatsios]

This from the Patristic Fathers for this hour.

I recognize the wisdom of this passage. I wonder, when is it ok to speak? I am shy by nature. I don't often talk to others nor express my ideas. I was raised to keep my mouth shut (personally IMO to my harm as an adult) My father a loving yet strict disciplinarian didn't care much for hearing us kids.

As an adult, I follow this same conditioning. When in a group or even less people, I may have the answer to a question or problem but refrain from speaking mostly because others will not stop talking long enough to let me speak or cut me off before I finish my thought. So depending on the person(s) cutting me off, I just keep my wisdom (haha) to myself and let them carry on without my participation.

When is it appropriate to assert myself to the point of asking or telling the others to "shut up" and hear me? Yes, I may have the Devil's disease, but do I remain a mute at all times? This question stems mostly from work, but it has applications regarding religious topics as well. I know less than most anyway, but I feel at times I might contribute an enlightening analogy that might help.

Thanks
Paul

Good subject, Paul.

This is one of my failings. I am basically a shy person - that's why this forum is such a blessing - and add to that my sensitivity concerning my inability to express myself the way I want to in Greek means that I tend to let others take the lead in group conversations. On the other hand, and I don't know if this happens to you, being shy I sometimes "break out" as it were, and can't stop talking. All part of the same syndrome. Just before starting out to go somewhere, where I know there are going to be a lot of people I know and am relaxed with, I pray to God that He will help me to curb my tongue and just "shut up". This doesn't happen with strangers because there I tend to say nothing and when I do, it's usually something that makes me unhappy when I remember it back home.

My problem originates from my difficulties with the language here I think. I taught myself to read and write Greek, but it's much harder speaking it. Growing up I was always a quiet person but confident in that I knew who I was. I knew that I was a strong and responsible person and so I didn't have this problem there.

Knowing myself and my problem, I have looked up a lot of advice from the father's on garrulousness. Their advice : the less you say the better for all.

BUT, in certain situations we are also told to "Roar like a lion, but be mostly meek as a lamb".

As to children being "seen and not heard". It think this is basically an Anglo-Saxon child rearing practice. Greeks love children and they are cherished in the home (not that English children aren't, of course). They are encouraged to take part in discussions at the table with all the family, but the father's word is law. So when he admonishes them for saying too much or being disrespectful they quieten down and learn to respect other people. They learn to think for themselves and to express their opinion. I believe that's why native Greeks are great talkers - especially about politics.

Now, after saying SO, SO much, I will "shut up".

Effie

One last thing after reading your message again : being quiet and listening means that you learn a lot more than those who talk a lot, but having confidence in yourself and being able to contribute postively to a conversation is what dialogue is all about. We are not monks or nuns who are committed to a life of silence. Caution is needed as with everything else. There is a saying here

"The tongue has no bones yet it breaks bones".

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

When is it appropriate to assert myself to the point of asking or telling the others to "shut up" and hear me? Yes, I may have the Devil's disease, but do I remain a mute at all times? This question stems mostly from work, but it has applications regarding religious topics as well. I know less than most anyway, but I feel at times I might contribute an enlightening analogy that might help.

Through a combination of prayer and inner vigilance we will gradually become aware of pride at work in the heart. When this arises we have to learn not to speak no matter how wise or good our words may sound.

But it could also be a matter of speaking more humbly.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mourad Mankarios]

This from the Patristic Fathers for this hour.

I recognize the wisdom of this passage. I wonder, when is it ok to speak? I am shy by nature. I don't often talk to others nor express my ideas. I was raised to keep my mouth shut (personally IMO to my harm as an adult) My father a loving yet strict disciplinarian didn't care much for hearing us kids.

As an adult, I follow this same conditioning. When in a group or even less people, I may have the answer to a question or problem but refrain from speaking mostly because others will not stop talking long enough to let me speak or cut me off before I finish my thought. So depending on the person(s) cutting me off, I just keep my wisdom (haha) to myself and let them carry on without my participation.

When is it appropriate to assert myself to the point of asking or telling the others to "shut up" and hear me? Yes, I may have the Devil's disease, but do I remain a mute at all times? This question stems mostly from work, but it has applications regarding religious topics as well. I know less than most anyway, but I feel at times I might contribute an enlightening analogy that might help.

Thanks
Paul

I wonder if the quote you provide from St John Climacus really matches the subject of your thread. I think the fathers outline something really important here and that is that one should not be proud or self-willed as well as highlighting the importance of the virtue of silence. However, the quote provided should be balanced with other important virtues as well such as love and humility. Is St John Climacus referring to that which is spoken without these virtues? Is he speaking about excessive or aggressive talk?

I believe that most importantly of all that wisdom and discretion should win the day, ie to know when and when not to speak. Job was the youngest in the midst of his elders and yet spoke and was even bold enough to rebuke and correct them. St Timothy was a young bishop whom St Paul advises to not allow any person to take advantage or look down on his young age. St Athanasius was only a young man when he stood in the midst of the bishops to defend the faith in Nicea. Christ Himself was only 12 years old when He stood in the synagogue to preach amongst the pharisees.

[Antonios]

Through a combination of prayer and inner vigilance we will gradually become aware of pride at work in the heart. When this arises we have to learn not to speak no matter how wise or good our words may sound.

But it could also be a matter of speaking more humbly.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

I think there is much to what Father Raphael said. The Patristic teachings have always held the tongue to be most destructive organ of the body. The life of the Christian is, in fact, one of spiritual warfare. The inner vigilance which Father Raphael mentioned is one which comes after much battle, primarily with one's own passions. Of course, any progress which is made, even to the point of passionlessness and ceaseless prayer, is by the Grace of the Holy Spirit. Those who live in such loving communion with God can see the passions rising up, can sense the shifting winds and gathering clouds and repel these passions (and demons) by calling on the Name of Son of God, Who spoke nothing as He stood in the Praetorium, being mocked and lashed and spat on.

With such a sense of the Presence of the Almighty, anything not of God becomes clearly apparent to the saints, being exposed and revealed by the Light of Christ and His Gospel. Thus, notions and language spoken with underlining pride as profit, is at once seen for what it is, and the conditioned Christian must then control his tongue, and before the thought even takes flight. Then, by awaiting for the assistance of God, sees the image and likeness of God in the one he is speaking to. And in all humility, makes the entire encounter a prayer to God.

[Andreas Moran]

We are speaking here of spiritual matters, I presume. In our jobs and some other circumstances in the world, we may have to speak up and put diffidence aside. (I'm not naturally a forward person, but a shy lecturer is not a good lecturer.) I don't mean we should be different people, but we do have to act as necessary according to context. Indeed, our integrity and our spiritual background may impel us to take a certain line in the world and be heard.

[Paul Cowan]

We are speaking here of spiritual matters, I presume. In our jobs and some other circumstances in the world, we may have to be speak up and put diffidence aside. (I'm not naturally a forward person, but a shy lecturer is not a good lecturer.) I don't mean we should be different people, but we do have to act as necessary according to context. Indeed, our integrity and our spiritual background may impel us to take a certain line in the world and be heard.

Thank you Andreas.

This is more of what I am asking. I don't offer much on Monachos unless I have personal experience in it and then I submit to others with more experience than I.

At work, I still try to keep quiet if others are expressing what I would if I were to talk, but more times than not, I get frustrated I have the answer to the problem but no one will allow me room to speak. So I suppose I should politely say to them, I was quiet while you spoke, now have the courtesy to allow me to speak. And if they don't, then just keep my solution to myself and present it in a more private setting.

Paul

[Andreas Moran]

Sounds, Paul, as though your work meetings do not follow the rules for the conduct of meetings.

[Paul Cowan]

Sounds, Paul, as though your work meetings do not follow the rules for the conduct of meetings.

There are rules? :0

[Andreas Moran]

Definitely there are, Paul, and as far as meetings for the conduct of any kind of business are concerned, legal action may be brought (in this jurisdiction at any rate, and I'm sure in yours as well) for a failure to apply the rules where such failure results in an improper outcome.

[Paul Cowan]

I looked into this and found Robert's rules for Parlimantery Procedure. (for dummies (http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/id-2797.html))

I work for a nonprofit. We do allright when it is the boss talking and we listen. But when he opens the floor to comment, It can become a free for all. Perhpas I should buy the book and conveniently leave it around the office?

I will have to resolve my speaking opportunities one on one with my supervisor. He is a good listener and I feel open to share with him.

SO getting back to a "spiritual" side...What do you do with road rage? I have 99% overcome my old habits. If I curse the guy inwardly am I not as bad off if I were to curse him outwardly? "If I am to be seen and not heard" would my keeping it to myself be less destructive by not involving the other person?

Yes, another session of confession, Try to be Christ like and see God in all men and love them all. I guess that is how we (I) struggle.

Paul

[Andreas Moran]

There should be a book available, probably called something like The Conduct of Meetings. Meetings should be chaired properly, have a pre-circulated agenda to which attendees were able to contribute, and have minutes taken. This will be familiar to many here.

As for lousy drivers (that's everyone except me!), I try to say, God make him/her a better driver!