'It's about the money!' - Riches and poverty

[Jad Wolf]

please forgive the lack of formality in my question. i am niether an academic

nor a scholar (especially since i guess they are almost the same thing) and i

am not able to quote chapter and verse from scripture. i guess i could look

it up and stuff like that, but i must be too lazy or just too ignorant (sorta

like making you bed in the morning when you are just gonna mess it up later

that night.)

i was raised in LA (lower Alabama...Roll Tide!) and that is the way most of us

did it. that's the way i did it anyway.

my question is:

how do we reconcile the scriptural reference to the wealthy young man who

asked our Lord how to find salvation to which our Lord said something like,

"give your money to the poor and follow Me!" as well as the statement that

goes something like, "it easier to pull a camel through the eye of a needle

than for a rich man to enter heaven" with making money in the world of the

21stcentury?

[Paul Cowan]

To reconcile both scriptures, give Alms.

[Andreas Moran]

I haven't read what the Fathers say about wealth and poverty (which I think is the title of a work by St John Chrysostom). I read somewhere that Christ said what He said to the young rich man because He knew his riches were stoppping him from commitment to God. But there's nothing about Zacchaeus having to give up everything - he just promised restitution to those he'd swindled. 'Making money in the 21st century' - well, it depends how much you make and how you make it. Teaching theology is better than running a casino. But Paul's pithy comment about alms raises what is for me a difficult question: how exactly does one give alms in the 21st century? In my life here in England, I don't know any poor people; I don't see any. Last week, in Florence, there was a gypsy woman begging at the door of the cathedral, and a few yards from a social services centre. The beggars we see today are not like the beggars in 1st century Palestine. A nephew of mine returned to London penniless after six months wandering around the world. He went to a building site and got a job. Later, a young man begged from him. My nephew said, 'where you see a tower crane, there's a job - do what I did'. 'Oh no, I don't want to do that', was the reply. Should I send a cheque to some charity? But then there's the question of where that money goes and how it's used. One could, perhaps, pay for a holiday for an impecunious elderly relative. So, how should we give alms in countries such as England these days?

[M.C. Steenberg]

To reconcile both scriptures, give Alms.


An interestingly-related quotation on the front page just after I read Paul's posting:
'Everybody has the ability to fast, pray and give alms. There is no can or can not, but a want to or not.'
- St Basil of Poiana Marului

[Mary]

So, how should we give alms in countries such as England these days?

Dear Andreas,

I usually give through charities that I feel are truly meeting a need - but that's here in the US, not in England. We have homeless shelters in NY, and there's "Feed the Children" - I think they help internationally too, but I like the fact that they also take care of hungry children right here in the US. They're able to get more groceries than normal for the same amount of money, so I think that's useful. Then there's our disabled veterans. They sacrificed themselves for us, and if a few dollars can help out... I wish I could do more. I avoid giving to research organizations, even though I want to see cancer gone and other such illnesses. I see feeding the poor as a more practical thing, whereas, 'research' is a black hole.

I don't give to strangers because I don't know if they really need it or not. Plus, there are organizations for the homeless, and I'd rather such folks go there, instead of beg on the streets. In places like Ethiopia, where there are more beggars than organizations, I'd give to the beggars. BUT even there, there are those who beg because it's more profitable than actually working. So we limited our giving to those whom we could see were truly disabled physically.

We have family who have less than we do. I usually buy them things they need. My dad helped our relatives a lot. He would give without making sure he had any for himself. My grandmother couldn't believe how foolish her intelligent son was because, instead of saving up his money for future expenses, he gave it away to relatives who couldn't pay him back. I asked her, Doesn't God specifically say that it's good to give to those who can't pay you back? My mother hid one shirt and one pair of pants from him after she came home one day to find he only had the pair of pants he had on, because an old student of his came to visit with his woeful story and Dad went to his suitcase, and gave him whatever he could find there.

And then, there's always Church... IF your own parish has enough, you could send some to us! =) And of course, don't forget the monasteries. If I need an orthodox book, I try to buy it from a monastery instead of buying it for a fraction of the price on ebay. Not exactly alms-giving, just redirecting my would-be-expense... but maybe it counts.

before anyone gets the idea that I'm a great giver, I'm not. I do spend more on myself than I give away... I only give because I have. Would I still give, if I had less? I should be able to. If I'm willing to stop pampering myself.

If you can't find anyone to give to in England, just let me know, I've got LOTS of outlets for money! =)

To answer Jad's question - Not everyone has the ability to make a lot of money. If You have that ability, count it a blessing and make lots of money, teach those who can be taught, and then give to those who can't. Remember the story of the talents? Two of them doubled what they were given, and the third just buried his. His master called him 'evil' for being so lazy.

I read a story a long time ago about a man named Gillette - who invented the razor blade. He used to give 10% of what he had, very faithfully. When he was suddenly blessed with riches, he didn't change his lifestyle. He continued to limit his expenses to his original life, and kept increasing the '10 %" that he was giving away. Towards the end of his life, he was living on 10% and giving away 90%.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Andreas wrote:


But Paul's pithy comment about alms raises what is for me a difficult question: how exactly does one give alms in the 21st century?

There are very many appeals for charity within the Church nowadays: from monasteries, parishes, missionary groups, etc.

On the social level it is a blessing if one is able to reach out on a personal level to someone who is 'on the street' begging. This may be one of the more worthy kinds of almsgiving since it takes an extra effort on our part.

In our parish since we are in a poorer area we have many opportunities for this. To give to someone whom we may feel doesn't deserve it is I think a very good thing for us to do; ie giving without calculation. And keeping compassionately in mind how much we also waste on addictive material things what God has given us. But in our parish we have also discovered that we need to ration our giving since otherwise it leads to abusive situations.

Finally the major focus of charity for us I think lies within our parish. Are we giving at least 10% of our income to the parish? And what of volunteer labour for its upkeep as well as helping out at the services?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Effie Ganatsios]

This has been a concern of mine as well. How to give money without making the recipient feel bad? I believe the best way is to give anonymously
without coming into direct contact with the person or family.

We give - not as much as we could - to various groups that I personally know help those less fortunate that us at this moment in time. I do not give to gypsy beggars who wait outside the church doors as people leave the service, because I believe that begging is a profession for them.

I'm not going to list what we have or haven't done, but one thing I would advise against is giving money to relatives no matter how badly they need it. No matter how tactful you are, and how willing to genuinely help, I have found that there remains a residue of resentment in the relationship afterwards. An interest-free loan that can be paid back whenever the person is ready to, is the best solution because this doesn't bruise the recipient's pride. There are other ways to help friends and relatives e.g. shopping from them if they have a shop or a business, using their services when you need them e.g. plumbers, instead of hiring someone else.

This matter of giving is a very sensitive and delicate procedure and that's why, as I said, I believe it's best to remain anonymous.

Effie

[Mary]

This has been a concern of mine as well. How to give money without making the recipient feel bad? I believe the best way is to give anonymously
without coming into direct contact with the person or family.

We give - not as much as we could - to various groups that I personally know help those less fortunate that us at this moment in time. I do not give to gypsy beggars who wait outside the church doors as people leave the service, because I believe that begging is a profession for them.

I'm not going to list what we have or haven't done, but one thing I would advise against is giving money to relatives no matter how badly they need it. No matter how tactful you are, and how willing to genuinely help, I have found that there remains a residue of resentment in the relationship afterwards. An interest-free loan that can be paid back whenever the person is ready to, is the best solution because this doesn't bruise the recipient's pride. There are other ways to help friends and relatives e.g. shopping from them if they have a shop or a business, using their services when you need them e.g. plumbers, instead of hiring someone else.

This matter of giving is a very sensitive and delicate procedure and that's why, as I said, I believe it's best to remain anonymous.

Effie

Dear Effie,

I must be blessed with exceptional family and friends. I have both given and received. Money, like water, should flow from the higher level to the lower. And our levels change. There were times when Dad and Mom went without food so my sister and I could eat. We were little then, and never knew. We've received both stuff and money from friends/ family, whether they knew of our needs or not, God led them to give, and they gave, and we were thankful not resentful. Sometimes we need to ask, and we do. I'd rather ask a friend for help than a stranger. One of the things I was really thrilled with when I was in India this past summer was getting to know my relatives at an 'adult' level. And issues of money came up, and I was so blessed to hear stories of how my cousins helped each other out. We're family. We share what's good, and what's bad. If we can't do that for each other, then why are we family?

In Christ,
Mary.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Effie,

I must be blessed with exceptional family and friends. I have both given and received. Money, like water, should flow from the higher level to the lower. And our levels change. There were times when Dad and Mom went without food so my sister and I could eat. We were little then, and never knew. We've received both stuff and money from friends/ family, whether they knew of our needs or not, God led them to give, and they gave, and we were thankful not resentful. Sometimes we need to ask, and we do. I'd rather ask a friend for help than a stranger. One of the things I was really thrilled with when I was in India this past summer was getting to know my relatives at an 'adult' level. And issues of money came up, and I was so blessed to hear stories of how my cousins helped each other out. We're family. We share what's good, and what's bad. If we can't do that for each other, then why are we family?

In Christ,
Mary.

I'm glad for you Mary. It must be wonderful to have such a terrific family.
I suppose I should have explained that I was not referring to our immediate families, because there is ease and love in both giving and receiving help in both my family and my husband's. When I wrote what I did I was thinking more along the lines of cousins, because of personal experiences. But, I see that your cousins are perhaps more open that ours here.

My mother has told me how things were when she was young here. If someone had a party relatives and friends would lend china and glassware just in case the guests were more than the household could provide for. And this giving and helping each other was a source of pleasure to all concerned.

Nowadays we are all so caught up in our possessions and our pride that we might find it difficult to ask when we have need.

Your post warmed my heart.

Effie

[Nina]

how do we reconcile the scriptural reference to the wealthy young man who

asked our Lord how to find salvation to which our Lord said something like,

"give your money to the poor and follow Me!" as well as the statement that

goes something like, "it easier to pull a camel through the eye of a needle

than for a rich man to enter heaven" with making money in the world of the

21stcentury?

Dear Jad,

Fathers of the Church say that wealth/money is not a sin. The attachment to wealth/money is a sin. As you can see the rich man walked away. In contrast Saint Anthony (and many saints) gave his wealth away when he heard those words of our God. Also poor people can be attached to money. So the Fathers say that poverty is not a ticket to Heaven (unless it is willingly as in the case of many saints who were rich before or in the case of monastics). They say that the poor man Lazarus from the parable in the NT, did not go to Heaven because he was poor, but for other reasons. And as we know Christ made an example of the widow who gave all she had as an offering to the Temple. Why? Christ underlined for us through the parable, that she was not attached to money, she sacrificed to the last and relied on God's mercy.

Wealth it is not bad at all, when you acquire and try to manage it according to the teachings of Christ and the Fathers of the Church. We know that many Patriarchs, Saints were extremely wealthy and still they entered Heaven because they regarded money just like any other thing that surrounds us and is given as a gift to us from God. They regarded money like the air, water etc. All these we use according to our needs and share with the rest of the world. Acting in the same way with material goods, means detachment from those.

Dear Andreas,

As Father Raphael and others said there are many ways to contribute. Read the lives of the Saints and get inspirations from them and pray to them to lead you where you can help financially. When you travel to a poor country get somethings for the poor people there. etc.

Pray and God will show you. :) Do you know the story of Abraham?



Abraham

ABRAHAM ALWAYS KEPT his door open and all the poor found refuge there. Abraham never sat down to eat without a stranger at his table. The devil was filled with malice and went into the street and stopped passers-by from coming to Abraham's tent. Abraham went out and waited on the street for three days without eating. Seeing his good disposition, the most gracious God [caused] three men to appear. Abraham took them into his tent and he kissed them. Later they disappeared in front of him. He then realized that it was the Holy Trinity, and he glorified God under the typos of the Holy Trinity. Whoever fasts for three days has a reward for his soul. But I don't tell you to do more than you can. There's benefit even if you fast for one day.Dear all,

As Father Raphael said it is important not to turn beggars in the street empty-handed. "Judge not" applies in this case also. Many Fathers reiterate that Christ can be appearing to us in the shape of a beggar. And they emphasize that not only we should give, but also say a good word and give with a good disposition and of course "the left hand should not know what the right does".

There is a story of a Saint who placed all the money he was giving away in a bag and prayed to God to allow him to retrieve according to the need of the beggar. When a well-dressed person came the Saint thought that he would get a small amount, however to his surprise it was a large amount. It is a beautiful story and very touching.

Some of the Saints that were so charitable are:
Saint Nicholas, Saint John the Patriarch of Alexandria, Saint Philaret, Saint Anthony etc. Basically all the saints dispersed all they had but several of them nurtured and developed the practical virtue of alms-giving or as they say it in Greek the virtue of mercy. Because it is equal to mercy and thus the person resembles God.

In my opinion this is a virtue that does not cost anything and it is so easy, but we have much gain if we practice it.

[Nicolaj]

Dear Brethren!

Here it comes to an accumulation of sins and temptations. Beware, the devil is in every coin you try to hide for God.

Jad, we pray daily to God to help us overcome inertia. This isn't just kidding about making the bed, or tell me why do you eat when you are hungry the next hour? Orthodoxy is much more serious and I think when you have the real intention to know more about such things as you asked for, it is time you make an serious attempt to get out of the pig pen. Don't be afraid to take up the bible after work or at the breaks, don't be afraid to pray as much as possible, don't be afraid to lose some false friends, just get up! And don't worry cause Jesus comes to meet you on your way towards him, he will help you and he will be mighty in your life, just get up and leave the pig pen.

There is no difference in making money in the 21st century as in the 1st century or at any times. Jesus said many words about the money and you should read them all, think about his sayings and then go to meet a orthodox priest and ask him to help you with your questions. Being orthodox means living the scriptures!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj.

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Andreas,


pith

noun

1: soft spongelike central cylinder of the stems of most flowering plants

2: the choicest or most essential or most vital part of some idea or experience; "the gist of the prosecutor's argument"; "the heart and soul of the Republican Party"; "the nub of the story" [syn: {kernel}, {substance}, {core}, {center}, {essence}, {gist}, {heart}, {heart and soul}, {inwardness}, {marrow}, {meat}, {nub}, {sum}, {nitty-gritty}]

I am hoping you meant the second definition...:)

It sounds like, and I must commend your country, that you have few homeless people. As great as the USA is (IMHO) we do have a TREMENDOUS amount of homeless people. There is not a bridge or street corner in Houston that does not have someone living under it or begging at it.

Are they lazy? Are they mentally challenged? Are they truly down on thier luck? Are they really rich leaching on the lives of the rest of us? Perhaps yes to all of these. Does it matter? Not really. God will allow us to discern within us if the person is scamming people. And even if He does not, so what. I give from my heart and let God judge the person receiving it for need or greed.

My company is an agency for the United Way. An organization that is a clearing house of 75+ agencies that are nonprofit that help others. Through the United Way people can get the specific help they need. Whether it is getting away from a wife beater, helping a family deal with cancer or feeding the elderly, the United Way does alot to help people through its agencies.

They have told us if you don't feel right giving money to someone standing on the street with a sign that says "hungry, please help", then if they truly are hungry, tape a water bottle to a sleeve of crackers and give it to them. IF they are hungry they will be grateful. If not...

My company has a lot of dinner meetings and always has lots of leftovers. I asked if I could give it to a men's shelter. They said yes. Perhaps there is a elderly shut-in nearby that would appreciate a Christmas dinner plate. Alms is not just giving money. It is giving of yourself.

I hate money. I know I have to earn it to pay bills. I hate having it around. I try to get rid of it as quickly as I can. Unless I am feeling greedy, then I horde it and don't tell anyone I have it. hummm, I need to work on that.

Paul

[Nina]

I apologize for forgetting the link to the passage about Abraham above, because I was in a hurry. It is from the book of Saint Kosmas with his sermons (http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/kosmas/fourth.html).

[Jad Wolf]

thank you for your response.
i am not sure i know what pig pen you are talking about unless it is the one that my grandfather had and i don't recall pushing out the usual inhabitants to make a place for me. l still don't make my bed each day and i don't see what that has to do with daily prayer or hunger. i know several Orthodox priests and i have heard their thoughts and opinions on the subject. i just wanted to hear more. perhaps one should read about pride and planks in eyes.

thank you again for your input.

In Christ and Holy Orthodoxy,
jw


Dear Brethren!

Here it comes to an accumulation of sins and temptations. Beware, the devil is in every coin you try to hide for God.

Jad, we pray daily to God to help us overcome inertia. This isn't just kidding about making the bed, or tell me why do you eat when you are hungry the next hour? Orthodoxy is much more serious and I think when you have the real intention to know more about such things as you asked for, it is time you make an serious attempt to get out of the pig pen. Don't be afraid to take up the bible after work or at the breaks, don't be afraid to pray as much as possible, don't be afraid to lose some false friends, just get up! And don't worry cause Jesus comes to meet you on your way towards him, he will help you and he will be mighty in your life, just get up and leave the pig pen.

There is no difference in making money in the 21st century as in the 1st century or at any times. Jesus said many words about the money and you should read them all, think about his sayings and then go to meet a orthodox priest and ask him to help you with your questions. Being orthodox means living the scriptures!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Quote by Nina

Dear all,

As Father Raphael said it is important not to turn beggars in the street empty-handed. "Judge not" applies in this case also. Many Fathers reiterate that Christ can be appearing to us in the shape of a beggar. And they emphasize that not only we should give, but also say a good word and give with a good disposition and of course "the left hand should not know what the right does".

Nina, I wrote that I don't give money to gypsy beggars because begging is one of their professions, and when we give to them we encourage them to teach this art to their children instead of sending them to school etc. It is pitiful to see gypsy children begging and I don't give them money but I do buy them something to eat. These children are scarred by their experiences and are given no chance by their parents to better themselves. The gypsies here are nomads, they travel all over Greece, as gypsies do over all of Europe, selling various items, doing seasonal work, but also begging.

Paul mentioned the many homeless and the organization he is with. This is what christianity is about. We don't have homeless here in my small city. We do have quite a few volunteer organizations that help those on small incomes i.e. volunteers cook food and our city council either serves it in a large hall to those who wish to eat there or a driver takes packages to homes where the inhabitants cannot leave the house. Again these people only come into contact with the city council employees and not women they may meet socially at some time. So their dignity is left intact.

This problem of homeless people might also increase here in the future, because people are borrowing money from the banks for various reasons, some quite trivial, and with the terrible compound interest a lot of people are losing their homes. Pensions are small but in the main adequate, health care is free if you go to public hospitals, and people look after their families. But the economic situation is worsening year by year and we no longer feel as secure as we used to. Only by helping each other can we live as Christ would have us live.

Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

This problem of homeless people might also increase here in the future, because people are borrowing money from the banks for various reasons, some quite trivial, and with the terrible compound interest a lot of people are losing their homes. Pensions are small but in the main adequate, health care is free if you go to public hospitals, and people look after their families. But the economic situation is worsening year by year and we no longer feel as secure as we used to. Only by helping each other can we live as Christ would have us live.


Which reminds us that helping out at food banks or homeless shelters is also a good work.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Alex Haig]

"Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy." (St John Chrysostom)

[Nina]

Quote by Nina

Dear all,

As Father Raphael said it is important not to turn beggars in the street empty-handed. "Judge not" applies in this case also. Many Fathers reiterate that Christ can be appearing to us in the shape of a beggar. And they emphasize that not only we should give, but also say a good word and give with a good disposition and of course "the left hand should not know what the right does".

Nina, I wrote that I don't give money to gypsy beggars

Effie

Dear Effie,

I was elaborating on the point of Father Raphael. I did not mean it for you. Just sharing what Fathers say on the matter and the point Father Raphael made.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Andreas,





My company is an agency for the United Way. An organization that is a clearing house of 75+ agencies that are nonprofit that help others. Through the United Way people can get the specific help they need. Whether it is getting away from a wife beater, helping a family deal with cancer or feeding the elderly, the United Way does alot to help people through its agencies.

They have told us if you don't feel right giving money to someone standing on the street with a sign that says "hungry, please help", then if they truly are hungry, tape a water bottle to a sleeve of crackers and give it to them. IF they are hungry they will be grateful. If not...


Paul

Paul, United Way sounds as if it is very helpful to those in need. It doesn't just feed people, but also helps them in lots of other ways. I sometimes imagine a world where we all help each other, but this would be utopia, wouldn't it - a place that does not exist. Yet.

Another question arises here. Who benefits more from giving? The giver or the receiver? Jesus Christ has answered this for us, hasn't he? Perhaps we could start a thread about this subject. Everything out of the mouth of our Lord was meant to ensure that we live in such a way that would be beneficial not only to us but also to all other men. Such a simple thing to envision but so hard to actually apply because our egos keep getting in the way. We find all kinds of ways to pamper our egos, especially by using money to buy things we don't really need instead of using it to help others. I feel humbled after reading some of the accounts of how others on this forum help people. I feel now that I am not doing enough - I help when it is convenient to me. I just don't make that extra effort.





Effie

[Andreas Moran]

What I had in mind when posting about this was that it would have been pretty obvious in 1st century Palestine, as it still is in many parts of the world today, who was poor and it would have been easy to give alms. It's not so clear-cut in North Essex in the 21st century. It's certainly more obvious in 21st century Moscow. Do we not have to give some thought about how we give? If I were to give something to everyone I pass begging on the streets of Moscow, I would be spreading what I have very thinly indeed and making not much difference to anyone. (Particularly distressing in Moscow is the way certain adults force children to ride on the metro all day begging, and, of course, the money goes to the adult for God knows what. These children are clearly terrified. On one metro ride, I saw one brutish-looking man slapping a child around and forcing him to sing for money. One brave man grabbed the child to protect him and delivered him to a policeman at the next stop.) Clearly, ways of giving can be found, but I sympathise with Effie that one's efforts seem too little, and it's easy to make excuses. It's easy to be put off as well. An Orthodox friend of mine once went to London for a meeting. He went out for lunch and bought a cheese and pickle sandwich. Seeing a beggar and having no change, he offered his sandwich. The beggar looked at it and said, 'no, I don't like cheese and pickle'!

[M.C. Steenberg]

Interestingly, there are few examples in Christ's own life of 'giving to the poor' in the sense(s) we most often think of; and yet those that do exist are remarkable.

In the one, it is what is done for the poor that matters. They are visited, clothed, fed, loved, and sacrifices are made on their behalf.

In the other, it is what is given to the poor that is significant, and in this Christ spells out exactly how much should be given: 'Go, sell all that thou hast, and give it to the poor.' All. Everything.

It is probably worth reflecting on these actual exhortations when we think about the practicalities of sacrificing for the poor today.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Andreas Moran]

With respect, I cannot agree that what Christ said to the rich young man ('go and sell all you have and give to the poor') applies to everybody. Logically, it cannot! As I have mentioned elsewhere, Christ knew that his riches were a stumbling block to this particular person. I suspect most of us here are not rich or even well off (I'm certainly not) and we have responsibilities to those who depend upon us (as my wife does). Most of us are not called to apply this injunction.

[M.C. Steenberg]

With respect, I cannot agree that what Christ said to the rich young man ('go and sell all you have and give to the poor') applies to everybody. Logically, it cannot! As I have mentioned elsewhere, Christ knew that his riches were a stumbling block to this particular person. I suspect most of us here are not rich or even well off (I'm certainly not) and we have responsibilities to those who depend upon us (as my wife does). Most of us are not called to apply this injunction.

I don't think I suggested that its face-value meaning is meant to apply to all in any uniform sense, Andreas. I agree with your comments on this. However, the principle of orientation towards those in need is the same in both of the examples I provided: the approach to 'the poor' is not indicated by Christ as doing a bit here and there, but as a life fully sacrificed for the sake of the other, of the fellow creature, of the child of God. The injunction to sell all one's posessions and donate them to the poor is clearly not meant as a 'working model' for all, as you rightly say. However, the concept that a life dedicated to God involves the utter and whole sacrifice of the self to his life and work, is clear. It was this point I was trying to stress - as I feel it is often set to one side in discussions on almsgiving, etc. (And again, it is notable that Christ neither says much nor gives many examples of what we most often consider the basics of alms and almsgiving.)

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Fr Dcn Matthew,

I felt sure that you couldn't have meant what it appeared to me you had said! (Can't do a smiley!) Another problem is that poverty is relative. People in England probably think they're poor if they can't buy the lastest mobile 'phone or digital TV set.

[Mary]

I feel now that I am not doing enough - I help when it is convenient to me. I just don't make that extra effort.

Effie

Dear Effie,

I don't think it would ever be wise to get to the point where we can be satisfied with our giving. If our aim is to give everything we have, then, there's always more and more to give. If we give away all of our money and our possessions, there is still our Self left. Our skills, our talents, our listening ears... Then there's Love - if I ever learn to allow God's Love to reach others through me, I'll have an endless source to give! But now, I'm dreaming. =)

Have you read the Children's story: "The Giving Tree"?? If I can't find it online, I'll post a short summary of it later on.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Herman Blaydoe]

When YOU give alms, YOU receive the blessing, YOU receive the "benefit" regardless of what the person receiving the alms does with it.

It doesn't seem to matter what you give, where you give, or how you give, but that you GIVE without expecting recompense or justification. I don't think it is evil to own things, but it is not good for things to own us. Are we willing to give it all up for the Pearl of Great Price? If the answer is no, then we may want to re-evaluate our position for when we are put to the test, lest we be weighed in the balance and found wanting.

Give however you think appropriate. You can only plant the seed, God must make it grow. As you are generous for God, God will be generous for you. As you withhold from God, He will withhold from you, or I am misreading my Scripture.

I look forward to correction if I have misspoken.

Herman

[Nina]

However, the principle of orientation towards those in need is the same in both of the examples I provided: the approach to 'the poor' is not indicated by Christ as doing a bit here and there, but as a life fully sacrificed for the sake of the other, of the fellow creature, of the child of God.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Exactly. When one has understood that his/her wealth is elsewhere (e.g in Heaven) and thus is filled by God and with God, he/she has abundant love that can not be contained. He/she wants to give everything (not only material) to the world; to empty themselves, up to the point of being self-sacrificed. This self-emptying and the ultimate sacrifice, we see of course in what Christ did for us and all His saints, and many other people one might be blessed enough to run into in the daily life.

Giving is meant about everything, when we are blessed to have it and especially have it in abundance. Material, is one part of it; sacrificing one's life is the ultimate. As one Father of the Church has said (I do not remember who) that when Christ said "you saw Me hungry and did not feed Me..." points not only to the literal meaning, but also sharing the wisdom of God etc.

[Andreas Moran]

If we think of 'need' as an alternative term to 'poverty', do things become clearer and more flexible for some of us? 'Need' and 'poverty' are not the same thing but a person in some need whom we can help in some way is a beneficiary of our time and energy just as much as someone who has no money. I'm thinking that in our jobs, for instance, we can do more than is required of us and thereby meet needs which might otherwise go unfulfilled. This sort of effort, of course, is the 'doing' which Fr Dcn Matthew mentioned, and there may be many opportunities for this.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Interestingly, there are few examples in Christ's own life of 'giving to the poor' in the sense(s) we most often think of; and yet those that do exist are remarkable.

In the one, it is what is done for the poor that matters. They are visited, clothed, fed, loved, and sacrifices are made on their behalf.

In the other, it is what is given to the poor that is significant, and in this Christ spells out exactly how much should be given: 'Go, sell all that thou hast, and give it to the poor.' All. Everything.

It is probably worth reflecting on these actual exhortations when we think about the practicalities of sacrificing for the poor today.

INXC, Dcn Matthew


This is why I think there is still a place for the person on the street. Official giving nowadays for all its real good, usually provides a buffer between us and the other person. In this context giving becomes almost totally rational: deserving causes, the right amount, etc. And of course most of the time there are none of the rough edges of personal contact.

Giving to someone on the street while perhaps not involving 'everything that you have' still calls on giving what in our eyes is not justified. It forces us, as St Isaac the Syrian might say, from the role of justice into that of mercy with its kind of giving of self.

Secondly giving to those on the street calls for a kind of personal contact that calls for love. Often the kind gesture which is part of the material giving is as important for us as for them.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

This is why I think there is still a place for the person on the street. Official giving nowadays for all its real good, usually provides a buffer between us and the other person. In this context giving becomes almost totally rational: deserving causes, the right amount, etc. And of course most of the time there are none of the rough edges of personal contact.

Giving to someone on the street while perhaps not involving 'everything that you have' still calls on giving what in our eyes is not justified. It forces us, as St Isaac the Syrian might say, from the role of justice into that of mercy with its kind of giving of self.

Secondly giving to those on the street calls for a kind of personal contact that calls for love. Often the kind gesture which is part of the material giving is as important for us as for them.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Exactly. That love also makes us less judgmental towards them.

[Nina]

If we think of 'need' as an alternative term to 'poverty', do things become clearer and more flexible for some of us? 'Need' and 'poverty' are not the same thing but a person in some need whom we can help in some way is a beneficiary of our time and energy just as much as someone who has no money. I'm thinking that in our jobs, for instance, we can do more than is required of us and thereby meet needs which might otherwise go unfulfilled. This sort of effort, of course, is the 'doing' which Fr Dcn Matthew mentioned, and there may be many opportunities for this.

Andreas, yes maybe where you live there is more need than poverty. However one can always go look for poverty. There is plenty of it in the world. Saints usually left their comfort zone, when they were not surrounded by the poor. You are right that we are not at all rich. However if we have a normal, comfortable life and there are so many people suffering today in the world that is an unsettling thought and feeling. Also do not forget that the widow that helped in the Temple was not rich either, and God made an example because of that.

But if you would like to find people in need in your area (although I do not know your area) I am sure you can find them. Widows and orphans are everywhere today and as we know this is important because it is mentioned very often in the Bible. Orphanages in your area for example? Another important category mentioned in the Bible are the strangers (and of course they are not poor, just away from their fatherland). Do you have hospitals in your area? A five minute (even longer if you can) stay at the hospital door will reveal to you a lot. Do you have elderly homes? They might have everything but a good word, or someone to talk with. Do you have families with many children in your area? For sure they are not poor, but it is difficult today to raise many children as it has been always. Do you go to London? I am sure there are opportunities in the street. Do you go abroad? Do you know someone, who is laid off recently? Someone that is loosing his home because of delinquent payments? Oh, the opportunities to help are endless. And as many have said here help does not consist only in the material aspect. I know that you have a very good heart and you help always.

[Nicolaj]

Dear Brethren!

The pig pen is the Pig Pen in the Bible, where the one son is sitting after losing all he had taken from home. He is sitting there so long and the only thing he knows is the pigs and the pig pen. He almost becomes like one himself until something comes in his mind. Some memories of long ago, about the house of his father, times where all was different. And he stands up and leaves the pig pen and starts his journey home. Ans his father comes out to meet him on his way and to take him home! That is God, our loving father!
He will not force you to leave the pig pen, but when you starts to go on the way towards him, he will come to meet you and to help you to make it home!

Andreas and all others who have doubts about what the Lord said! Here I will tell all of you just a small autobiographic story of how mighty Jesus is, if we are just being true believers of the things he PROMISED!
Jesus didn't say an word untrue for his words are eternal life! As I am not a wealthy man in western manner and I don't have goods and things hoarded really. I am the first among sinners and I repent many things I did in my life.

In the last years, my life was running into dead ends in all directions, lost my job, my friends, my faith I had already lost a long time before. And so I came at the point where I was thinking about ending this life and only thought about the best way to do that. And there it was that something started to happen in my life.
I bought me a bible again, although I didn't really had money available for this and I didn't had any idea of what I would be doing with it. I started leaving the pig pen.
And guess what..... Jesus was there to meet me. In the first I wasn't sure that I wanted to have his help, cause I didn't know about ending my life, and all the mess I stuck in. But I remembered something a priest told me for years, that Jesus don't allows jokes about the things he promised. We should do our part of the work and he will fulfil his part too. And I can tell you that He is mighty indeed!
I started to attend the services in the orthodox church, got to know a fine wife and married her and we tried hard to live according to the gospel, with all consequences, giving alms included. And there, as we were to lose our apartment and didn't know where we will be the next week, we became suddenly a better apartment, even a kitchen which we hadn't have for over two years and so on.

God is a loving, caring Father! And he cares better for me as an earthly father ever can. But trust him! And test yourself everyday and every minute with such things like money, like having goods and so on, cause this will make you really free.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Andreas Moran]

Naturally, I'm not going to say what I do , but I thought it useful to air the problem generally as to how, in a wealthy country with a very considerable welfare system such as we have in England, we follow the commandment to give. Of particular value has been the distinction drawn between 'justice' and the odious distinction that used to be made (in Victorian and Edwardian times) between the 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor, and mercy, and also the distinction between giving and doing.

PS I think the widow next door has much more money than I!

[Nina]

Naturally, I'm not going to say what I do , but I thought it useful to air the problem generally as to how, in a wealthy country with a very considerable welfare system such as we have in England, we follow the commandment to give. Of particular value has been the distinction drawn between 'justice' and the odious distinction that used to be made (in Victorian and Edwardian times) between the 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor, and mercy, and also the distinction between giving and doing.

PS I think the widow next door has much more money than I!

No one is saying here what they are doing. And by the way things I have said are from the books that I have read, it is not that I do those things, and that is why I am not a saint but THE sinner, because my praxis is zero.

Your country might be wealthy, but you have many people who are not having an easy life. From a child suffering from cancer, to a family ruined because of financial problems and to the red light districts etc. Speaking of the latter, who was the Saint, that gave daily money to the prostitutes, and pleaded with them to not go in the street, and guided them until they either got married, or became nuns?

Problems dear Andreas are everywhere, otherwise if England, was the land of milk and honey, people would be running to come and live there.

About the widow that is your neighbor, I can not judge since I do not even know her. But since God, and Bible says that, who am I to not mention it? Also one example you might give does not mean that all the widows have a good life, because that will contradict the words of our God.

[Andreas Moran]

If the immigration statistics are right, people are running to come here! This is largely because of our welfare system and the fact that we don't have identity cards.

[Effie Ganatsios]

The monastery a couple of kilometres outside our small city is always glad of good clothes that you have grown out of - in my case not grown taller but broader............., and even older clothes. The nuns give the good clothes to those who need them, and cut the older clothes into strips and weave them into floor coverings and then sell them. In my grandmother's day all houses had a room with a large loom and the women of the house would weave all their house linen, etc. They found a use for everything, even tiny scraps of material. Nothing was wasted. What a difference from today.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

What I had in mind when posting about this was that it would have been pretty obvious in 1st century Palestine, as it still is in many parts of the world today, who was poor and it would have been easy to give alms. It's not so clear-cut in North Essex in the 21st century. It's certainly more obvious in 21st century Moscow. Do we not have to give some thought about how we give? If I were to give something to everyone I pass begging on the streets of Moscow, I would be spreading what I have very thinly indeed and making not much difference to anyone. (Particularly distressing in Moscow is the way certain adults force children to ride on the metro all day begging, and, of course, the money goes to the adult for God knows what. These children are clearly terrified. On one metro ride, I saw one brutish-looking man slapping a child around and forcing him to sing for money. One brave man grabbed the child to protect him and delivered him to a policeman at the next stop.) Clearly, ways of giving can be found, but I sympathise with Effie that one's efforts seem too little, and it's easy to make excuses. It's easy to be put off as well. An Orthodox friend of mine once went to London for a meeting. He went out for lunch and bought a cheese and pickle sandwich. Seeing a beggar and having no change, he offered his sandwich. The beggar looked at it and said, 'no, I don't like cheese and pickle'!

We have the same problem in Athens, Andreas. Adults force their young children, mostly gypsies and Albanians, to beg at the traffic lights. It is so sad.

Your last sentence made me laugh and remember something. A few years ago we hired two Albanians to work on a minor building job for a couple of days in our garden.

It's the custom here for the lady of the house to prepare a midday meal for greek construction workers and I decided to do the same for the Albanians. Because they were poor and were here illegally, I imagined that they might not be eating regularly so I prepared a rich and tasty meal but I made the mistake of adding a boiled greens salad. Something very common here and served with an olive oil and lemon dressing. Also very healthy. They refused it saying that this was something they would not eat in Albania. At least they enjoyed the rest of the meal!

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Brethren!


I started to attend the services in the orthodox church, got to know a fine wife and married her and we tried hard to live according to the gospel, with all consequences, giving alms included. And there, as we were to lose our apartment and didn't know where we will be the next week, we became suddenly a better apartment, even a kitchen which we hadn't have for over two years and so on.

God is a loving, caring Father! And he cares better for me as an earthly father ever can. But trust him! And test yourself everyday and every minute with such things like money, like having goods and so on, cause this will make you really free.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

Very true Nicolaj. I confess that most of the time I push Christ aside and grab the reins of my life, thereby making a complete mess of things.

Effie

[Nina]

If the immigration statistics are right, people are running to come here! This is largely because of our welfare system and the fact that we don't have identity cards.

I said and meant it the land of milk and honey, as it is said in the Bible by God. And which we know very well where it is, in this realm, or the next.

However , if the conditions in your country are so good and you raise the question just in general for people who live in the midst of good conditions, those people should read (as I have said before) what the Saints, who lived in wealthy areas and families did. Orthodoxy has endless examples of people leaving their comfort zones and reaching out to need and poverty.

[Nicolaj]

Dear brethren!

Welfare and all the things who are supposed to take care of those in needs are mainly there to give us a reason to say that there is already taken care of the hopeless and the homeless and there is nothing to worry about for us.

The Gospel says that it is our concern to take care! And Andreas, with all respect, I believe you are a bit teasing, for good reason! But thank you for that because it helps me to think clearly and reflect the wonders God did in my life!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Jad Wolf]

Dear Nicolaj...

forgive me again, if you please. i thought you were saying that because i did not make my bed every day that i was living in a pigpen.

i am aware of the parable of the prodigal son as i am aware of the publican and the pharisee.

i also made an error when i said that Orthodoxy was not a condition of knowledge for me but one of concepts. i should have said that the knowledge i seek in my faith is not one of details but of concepts. please forgive my inability to communicate. it is so difficult for a silly goose to be serious.



Dear Brethren!

The pig pen is the Pig Pen in the Bible, where the one son is sitting after losing all he had taken from home. He is sitting there so long and the only thing he knows is the pigs and the pig pen. He almost becomes like one himself until something comes in his mind. Some memories of long ago, about the house of his father, times where all was different. And he stands up and leaves the pig pen and starts his journey home. Ans his father comes out to meet him on his way and to take him home! That is God, our loving father!
He will not force you to leave the pig pen, but when you starts to go on the way towards him, he will come to meet you and to help you to make it home!

Andreas and all others who have doubts about what the Lord said! Here I will tell all of you just a small autobiographic story of how mighty Jesus is, if we are just being true believers of the things he PROMISED!
Jesus didn't say an word untrue for his words are eternal life! As I am not a wealthy man in western manner and I don't have goods and things hoarded really. I am the first among sinners and I repent many things I did in my life.

In the last years, my life was running into dead ends in all directions, lost my job, my friends, my faith I had already lost a long time before. And so I came at the point where I was thinking about ending this life and only thought about the best way to do that. And there it was that something started to happen in my life.
I bought me a bible again, although I didn't really had money available for this and I didn't had any idea of what I would be doing with it. I started leaving the pig pen.
And guess what..... Jesus was there to meet me. In the first I wasn't sure that I wanted to have his help, cause I didn't know about ending my life, and all the mess I stuck in. But I remembered something a priest told me for years, that Jesus don't allows jokes about the things he promised. We should do our part of the work and he will fulfil his part too. And I can tell you that He is mighty indeed!
I started to attend the services in the orthodox church, got to know a fine wife and married her and we tried hard to live according to the gospel, with all consequences, giving alms included. And there, as we were to lose our apartment and didn't know where we will be the next week, we became suddenly a better apartment, even a kitchen which we hadn't have for over two years and so on.

God is a loving, caring Father! And he cares better for me as an earthly father ever can. But trust him! And test yourself everyday and every minute with such things like money, like having goods and so on, cause this will make you really free.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Nicolaj]

But dear brother to me as you are, this wasn't meant to rub your face! The only intention was to tell you something out of my experience with being faithful and pious with the treasury of Faith.

No need for forgiveness, becuase I wasn't upset, just saw my brother and trying to give a hand, okay? You aren't silly, you are Jad and you are who you are, and for that I like you.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Mary]

Found this when I logged in this morning:




Every day you provide your bodies with food to keep them from failing. In the same way your good works should be the daily nourishment of your hearts. Your bodies are fed with food and your spirits with good works. You aren't to deny your soul, which is going to live forever, what you grant to your body, which is going to die.
- St Gregory the Great

[Moses Anthony]

please forgive the lack of formality in my question. i am niether an academic

nor a scholar (especially since i guess they are almost the same thing) and i

am not able to quote chapter and verse from scripture. i guess i could look

it up and stuff like that, but i must be too lazy or just too ignorant (sorta

like making you bed in the morning when you are just gonna mess it up later

that night.)

i was raised in LA (lower Alabama...Roll Tide!) and that is the way most of us

did it. that's the way i did it anyway.

my question is:

how do we reconcile the scriptural reference to the wealthy young man who

asked our Lord how to find salvation to which our Lord said something like,

"give your money to the poor and follow Me!" as well as the statement that

goes something like, "it easier to pull a camel through the eye of a needle

than for a rich man to enter heaven" with making money in the world of the

21stcentury?

Dear Jad,
Last week at work, (I'm a Corrections Officer), I overheard and was briefly involved in a conversation with two Muslims. One said of himself the word progressive, and of the other "old school".

I asked the "old school" Muslim (whom I'd talked with before) the rhetorical question: Mosques are built by donations, right; where do the people get the money from to make the donations?

A cursory perusal of the New Testament will reveal that Jesus never said anything was wrong with making money. He and the Apostles were supported by the work of, among others, several wealthy women. Making money in the 21st Century has for the 21st Century not changed from when Jesus walked this Earth. The ability to make money is a gift and blessing from God Almighty, which He bestows upon us not to hoard as did the servant with the one talent, but to put to good and wise use that our King might receive a return on His investment.

the sinful and unworthy servant;
moses

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Maybe specifically in the sense of 'making money' Christ never said anything. But He certainly did preach in word and deed about the sinfulness of accumulating riches. This also is found in the immediate Apostolic witness.

If we read someone like St John Chrysostom for example he understands that such accumulation is the result of the Fall. According to God's original plan reaping the benefits of God's creation was not supposed to result in the impoverishment of someone else.

Thus as with a number of other aspects of our life now, threads of the Fall are woven through it. Keeping this in mind is crucial so that while going about our life we do not make an idol of it, making it an end in itself.

For the Holy Fathers active and real charity (almsgiving, forgiveness, patience) are a means of restoring the balance altered by the Fall.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

But He certainly did preach in word and deed about the sinfulness of accumulating riches.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Yes, this is so true (like the rest of the post). And we can see it clearly here.



13 Then one from the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
14 But He said to him, “Man, who made Me a judge or an arbitrator over you?” 15 And He said to them, “Take heed and beware of covetousness,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=12&version=50#fen-NKJV-25469b)] for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses.”
16 Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully. 17 And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ 18 So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.”’ 20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’
21 “So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” Luke 12:13-21

[Andreas Moran]

Should a church accept money from someone who gained that money from winning the lottery or some other form of gambling?

[Mary]

Should a church accept money from someone who gained that money from winning the lottery or some other form of gambling?

Good question! I'd say NO for money that was stolen, but for some reason, gambling doesn't seem to be the same as stealing... nor is it the same as taking someone else's money by force...

I haven't seen the Bible verse that says: Thou shalt not gamble.... But there is stuff about stealing, and gluttony and drunkeness...

In short, I don't know! I need to enlightened.

Mary.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Good question! I'd say NO for money that was stolen, but for some reason, gambling doesn't seem to be the same as stealing... nor is it the same as taking someone else's money by force...

I haven't seen the Bible verse that says: Thou shalt not gamble.... But there is stuff about stealing, and gluttony and drunkeness...

In short, I don't know! I need to enlightened.

Mary.

Mary, gambling is an addiction. And when we have an addiction, we replace God with that addiction. Perhaps this is why the Church is against gambling or drugs, or any other kind of addiction.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6:9-11)" Paul included drunkards in this list, and it could apply to any addiction............."

I am not very sure if my opinion on this subject is correct acording to the bible and I'd like others to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Andreas Moran]

It baffles me that parishes hold raffles to raise money - why can't people give to their parish without the hope of winning a plane ticket to Cyprus, or even a bottle of Commandaria?

[Kris]

Should a church accept money from someone who gained that money from winning the lottery or some other form of gambling?

Perhaps it would not be right for a church to accept money earned in this way purely because it might become a stumbling block for others. However, I think a similar form of donation - to the poor for example - would be a suitable way to deal with money won by lotteries or other such forms of gambling (while money won face-to-face in a game of poker with an aquaintance should be returned to the person who suffered the loss).

[Nina]

I personally do not know what money church accepts and maybe this is better (although it often happens that I decide that my sins are not enough and I start thinking about others)... unless I am the one gambling and playing lottery. However maybe "the right hand should not know what the left is doing" and vice versa, is better to be kept in mind in this case - just for our own peace.

And thinking more about it, there is no untainted money in this world. God did name it all as Mamon when He spoke. If some was dirty and some clean, He would have specified it.

[Peter S.]

Matt 6.24: "No one can serve to masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other,or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon"

Money itself is not evil but if you despise God it is evil. It is easy to forget Got when your focus is money. It is easy to forget God when your focus is sport and so on.

Is Jesus in Matt 6.24 saying that I despise him when I am loyal to my interrest in making money or when I am interested in another "master"?

Peter

[Paul Cowan]

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Paul included drunkards in this list, and it could apply to any addiction............."


Well, I'm not getting in.

[Father David Moser]

Perhaps it would not be right for a church to accept money earned in this way purely because it might become a stumbling block for others.

As the rector of a parish, when money is given to the parish - I don't ask from whence it came. If a person gives to the Church, whatever he gets out of it is up to God and so there is no illicit "gain" in doing so. What comes in is used for the work of the Church, whether that be "operating costs" or building fund or charity, and that is all to the glory of God.

If someone were to come to me and say "This money was stolen..." if their accusation was substantiated, then I would be inclined to return it to the one from whom it was stolen. If someone comes and says "This money came from the lottery...." then I can only say that we are thankful to God for what He has given, let us be sure that we do not waste it foolishly on such things."

Neither the money itself, nor the source of the money is the issue - what is important is what we do with it.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

Paul wrote:
Well, I'm not getting in.

Ah, but the beauty of our faith is that by repentance, we may get in - even me! 'Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not.'

[Effie Ganatsios]

Paul wrote:

Ah, but the beauty of our faith is that by repentance, we may get in - even me! 'Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not.'

I believe that everything in moderation is correct as concerns drinking and playing cards - not gambling. Moderation in all things, as the Greek philosophers tell us. A glass of wine with our meals, bridge or 21 with friends, especially waiting for the New Year to come which is traditional here, not Christian but an old custom. Eating to live and not living to eat. And when we sin, as we all do, genuine repentance which comes from our hearts and the realization that we have failed God.

Money sources :

Yesterday I read an article about a half finished Muslim mosque, in England if I remember correctly. It has become an eyesore in the neighbourhood, because the Muslim community in the area refuse to finish it due to the fact that the original money came from lottery winnings. Perhaps this is going a little too far though.

As far as possible I try to ensure that my money is "clean". I have some bonds (not many) in the stock market and when I originally bought them I asked for assurance from my agent that my money would not be going to any company that is involved in the manufacture of arms. He assured me that this would not happen - I choose to believe him and trust him, mainly because I am not capable of checking this for myself.

We are stewards of our money and we can choose to manage it in a Christian way as taught by Jesus Christ or we can choose to want more and more and thus destroy ourselves. It is greed that destroys us, not the money itself.

As an example I want to relate something personal that happened yesterday.
A close relative is an alchoholic and has started beating his wife when drunk.
This wonderful woman, who is trying to keep her family together by any means, came to us and asked my husband to talk to her husband. He did, and the excuse given for the discord in his family was economic - his wife has a flat in her name (a wedding present from her father) and he wants title to it. (He didn't at any point of the conversation acknowledge the fact that he has become an alchoholic). The man himself is land rich, mainly because he managed to get his father to leave everything to him instead of each member of the family getting a fair share, and his life is being destroyed because of his need for more and more. Money has become his god and his wife and 2 children are being sacrificed to this god.

Effie

[Andreas Moran]

Effie's used the word 'stewardship'; this is so important at levels of life today. If climate change is caused by mankind's rapacious use of the earth's resources, it (mankind) has failed to be a steward and became a despoiler. We have to apply this in our own lives. I really can't buy beans in my supermarket that were 'flown in from Kenya for freshness' - I think that's outrageous. Tragedy, whether personal, as in the case Effie mentions, or global cause suffering somewhere. I often remember Gandhi's saying: 'the earth has enough for every man's need but not for every man's greed'.

[Mary]

I agree that gambling is addicting. So is food and wine and sex. The internet, computer games, and even Monachos! =)

But, is it only the addicting factor that makes it a sin? Or is it completely a sin, like stealing and lying, which are sins even in the minutest amount?

Reason I'm asking, is because, like Andreas said, we have raffles in church. That is gambling in moderation. I can't lie or steal in moderation. But is it ok to gamble in moderation?

Everytime we go to the store, the kids want to put a few quarters in those machines at the entrance, that contain candy or some toy. We usually don't let them, because it's so much cheaper to buy the same stuff inside the store. But, for my daughter's birthday, we allowed them to 'waste' a few quarters, and try their luck on those machines. It was amusing to watch as they tried to guess what toy they'd get, and then watch their reactions when they either got what they wanted or didn't get what they wanted.

And then, I wondered, if it would've been as much *fun* if we'd just gone into the store and bought exactly what they wanted, for a fraction of the cost. NO! It wouldn't have been fun!! It's the element of risk, the unknown, that pumps up all the excitement in your body and makes it so much more fun to spend a quarter and lose than to spend less and get exaclty what you want. But, is that a SIN? expecially, when the amounts of money involved are a few quarters, or a few dollars at a raffle in church?

Bottom line is, you're actually paying for a bit of thrill and excitement, to taste a tiny fraction of some kind of risk... the 'risk' being, you're either going to win or lose. So, if you have a budget for yourself, is it ok to enjoy such thrills in life? =)

In Christ,
Mary.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Mary wrote :


"And then, I wondered, if it would've been as much *fun* if we'd just gone into the store and bought exactly what they wanted, for a fraction of the cost. NO! It wouldn't have been fun!! It's the element of risk, the unknown, that pumps up all the excitement in your body and makes it so much more fun to spend a quarter and lose than to spend less and get exaclty what you want. But, is that a SIN? expecially, when the amounts of money involved are a few quarters, or a few dollars at a raffle in church?

Bottom line is, you're actually paying for a bit of thrill and excitement, to taste a tiny fraction of some kind of risk... the 'risk' being, you're either going to win or lose. So, if you have a budget for yourself, is it ok to enjoy such thrills in life? =) "

A very good post Mary, which includes lots of points to think about. Funnily enough, the fact that having fun has a lot to do with Bingo and playing cards and other innocent enjoyments was something I also was thinking about when writing my last message, but then I decided that the message was long enough as it was. The fun of playing games, not just card games but all games is a part of why we enjoy ourselves so much. I think most people buy lottery tickets but there is really no fun in this. There is the lure of a lot of money that will somehow, magically, make life easier for you. I think this is wrong. We want luck to achieve what hard work should achieve. Where is the sense of accomplishment in a lottery win?

We are not robots and everyone enjoys "such thrills in life", as you stated. I believe that it is when we go beyond acceptable limits that things start to go wrong. Forbidding something or repressing it often has the opposite effect of what we wanted to achieve in the first place. For example, children here are permitted a sip or two of wine during a family meal. Coca cola which is considered a suitable drink for children in many countries is far more dangerous to our health than wine, which is beneficial. The result of this leniency is that children associate wine with food and family meals thus keeping it in perspective.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Effie's used the word 'stewardship'; this is so important at levels of life today. If climate change is caused by mankind's rapacious use of the earth's resources, it (mankind) has failed to be a steward and became a despoiler. We have to apply this in our own lives. I really can't buy beans in my supermarket that were 'flown in from Kenya for freshness' - I think that's outrageous. Tragedy, whether personal, as in the case Effie mentions, or global cause suffering somewhere. I often remember Gandhi's saying: 'the earth has enough for every man's need but not for every man's greed'.


Yes, Andreas, I agree completely with all you say in your above message.

Sometimes we feel such frustration with what is happening in the world today and it's hard to see our way clear to doing something about it. What can we do? Does whatever we manage to do have any effect whatsoever? What is the government doing?

A couple of days ago we drove to Thessaloniki and passed one of the power stations on our way. The pollution from the ash in the immediate area was
very evident and our comments lead our conversation to global warming and the fact that last winter, for the first time in memory, we had no snow here. We came to the conclusion that even though our efforts might be in vain, the only thing each of us can do is try to consume less, limit waste, and make an individual effort. There is always something we can do. No effort is really in vain. I can't force the person next to me to change but I can make myself responsible for myself and my actions.

[Nina]

If climate change is caused by mankind's rapacious use of the earth's resources, it (mankind) has failed to be a steward and became a despoiler.

There might be truth in this, however in Genesis, God gave a blessing to Adam.

Also I read sometime ago from a spiritual book that when we speak with anxiety and defeatism about Earth (depleting its resources etc.) we are disregarding God in this case. Because He did not create the earth and us, and threw us out there (the Bible assures us many times about this), but He is our loving, caring and merciful Father, Who even sent His Son to be crucified for us; also the book said that we should keep in mind that God's energies do not abandon the creation, but are always working on us and the entire universe. I think it was a book from Metropolitan Hierotheos; if I come across the passage again I will post it, so you do not rely on my paraphrasing.

[Alex Haig]

Much of this thread has focused on giving money as alms but this seems to miss the point of the Gospel. It is (relatively) easy to give our tithe, give money to charities and such, good things in themselves, but not what Christ has told us to do.

The young man whom Christ told to sell all he had was also given another command, one applicable to all, "come and follow Me" (Matthew 19:21). How do we do this as Christians? Again Christ has the answer: "let him deny himself and take up his cross" (Matthew 16:24).

Christ, at the Last Day, will not ask of us how much money we've given to (deserving) charities but if we've fed the hungry, given drink to the thirsty, taken in the stranger, clothed the naked and visited the sick and those in prison (see Matthew 25:31-46). Have we done these on a personal level and 'got our hands dirty' or stood afar off, giving money while we relax in our comfortable homes? Have we done these for the cheater, the liar, the robber, the murderer and the paedophile as well as those we think deserving? Have we done this even for "the least of these [Christ's] brethren"? (Matthew 25:41)

With love in Christ

Alex

[Effie Ganatsios]

Much of this thread has focused on giving money as alms but this seems to miss the point of the Gospel. It is (relatively) easy to give our tithe, give money to charities and such, good things in themselves, but not what Christ has told us to do.

The young man whom Christ told to sell all he had was also given another command, one applicable to all, "come and follow Me" (Matthew 19:21). How do we do this as Christians? Again Christ has the answer: "let him deny himself and take up his cross" (Matthew 16:24).

Christ, at the Last Day, will not ask of us how much money we've given to (deserving) charities but if we've fed the hungry, given drink to the thirsty, taken in the stranger, clothed the naked and visited the sick and those in prison (see Matthew 25:31-46). Have we done these on a personal level and 'got our hands dirty' or stood afar off, giving money while we relax in our comfortable homes? Have we done these for the cheater, the liar, the robber, the murderer and the paedophile as well as those we think deserving? Have we done this even for "the least of these [Christ's] brethren"? (Matthew 25:41)

With love in Christ

Alex

Alex, isn't compassion about helping those around us? If you live in a small city where would you find the murderer and the paedophile? And why are we so compassionate towards the people who commit crimes and not towards the victims of those same crimes. The victim is always forgotten. The five minutes of sick enjoyment that a paedophile might feel, mean years of anguish to the victim while he or she tries to recover. People who commit such crimes need psychiatric help and not people holding their hands and telling them that the Lord forgives them. What they have done is between themselves and their God.

I feel that there is enough suffering and heartache closer to home and perhaps we should just start from there. I don't know if I'm expressing myself clearly, but helping those we come into contact with is a start and something each of us can do. And Alex, giving money to the church, or to organizations that help people in need means that we are doing exactly as Christ told us to. Our money helps them clothe themselves, it helps them feed themselves.

Another way of helping that we haven't touched upon, is electing honest and responsible people who will work within the government to make conditions in prison and other institutions more humane.

I believe the important thing is to help in whatever way each of us can, and God gives us plenty of opportunities to do this. We just need to take advantage of those opportunities.


Effie

[Paul Cowan]

A couple of years back I noticed this 8-10 year old boy sitting at a bus stop bench with a suitcase, and a towel for a coat. It was windy and cold. I passed him knowing he was running away from home. When I "woke up" I turned around within a block and went back to pick him up to take him to the local police station. He was gone and no bus had come.

What happened to this "angel" I had a chance to help but did not? Who else picked him up? a stranger or a parent? It was less than 2 minutes to turn around and get back to where he was. He was no where to be found. I went to the local police station anyway and reported it and they sent out a car to look around also.

I am confident a parent picked him up. (I pray, or I fear). Or was my opportunity to help an angel in disguise taken from me for not acting immediately? I will never forget that incident. We should help those we can immediately and let God worry over the details.

A gift is a gift. A gift cannot be dictated. You can't say here is a thousand dollars. And then dictate to the person what is to be used for. It is no longer a gift but a purchase of goods.

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

Paul, I can imagine how this would haunt you. Keep in mind though that we usually tend to imagine the worst. Perhaps someone else took pity on the boy, provided what was needed - clothes first of all and then food, and took him to the appropriate authorities. Did the police check the shelters, social services, etc.?

Effie

[Mary]

Paul, your story is so almost exaclty like the one we encountered some 9 yrs back. My husband and I were entering a subway station. As we walked down the step, an old man, not well dressed, was walking up, counting the change in his hands, and muttering that he didn't have enough to buy a token. He wasn't begging. But we knew what he needed. We ignored him, because we were in a hurry and dropped our tokens in and entered the station. But, we kept slowing down, till we finally stopped, and we both turned to each other and said: "Did you hear what he said?" We'd both heard the same thing.

So, my husband went back out, bought two more tokens, one for the man, and one for himself to get back in, and went back up the steps to look for him. He found him near a phone booth, more miserable than earlier, shaking his head and moaning that there was no one home. My husband quickly walked over and dropped a token in his hands and said: "Here's your token," and quickly turned and walked away. The man hadn't really seen him. He just looked up and started to say: "Thank you Jesus!" instead of 'No one is home."

I wouldn't have been able to live with the guilt if my husband hadn't found him. As it is, I do carry the guilt of another opportunity I missed. It was at the hospital while I was a student nurse. We'd gotten to know the sons of one our patients, because she'd been there a long time. He was with her all day, taking care of her, because everyone else had to go to work, but he was still jobless. He was her oldest son, and very dear to her, for he had been born after many years of waiting. The day before she was to go home, I was on the night shift and he came to my desk, shivering. He looked very frightened. I asked him to sit and he told me his symptoms and I was frightened too. I quizzed him till he finally remembered that he was bitten by a little dog in the street, the day of his mother's accident. But, it wasn't a big bite and he'd been so full of worrying over his mom, that he had paid no attention, and soon it was out of his mind. But it hadn't left his body.

He developed rabies and it was too late to treat him. His younger brother arrived and helped him get to the government hospital, which is the only place that would admit patients with rabies. They wouldn't treat him. They put him away to die. He escaped. He wanted to say goodbye to his mother. She wept the whole night through. They wouldn't let him stay near her becasue they were afraid he'd lose control of his mind and attack others. But he was in full control of his mind and he only tried to scare them away when they started to treat him like an animal. Soon, he lost control of his body. They put him on a stretcher and moved him to a secluded corridor, till they could find people to take him back to the gov't hospital.

I went to see his mother and she begged me to go to him and make sure he's comfortable, so I went. He had a few blankets on, but he was shaking so bad, and when they fell off, the slight breeze or the metal on the stretcher would send him into convulsions. He asked me to help him fix his blanket and I was scared. He promised me he wouldn't hurt me. What could I do? I knew him. I'd grown to love him like a brother. I started to go closer and someone walking by warned me not to. That gave me the last bit of courage I needed. (Or maybe it was foolishness.) I helped him with his blanket and I stayed near him, talking to him.

That's when I missed my opportunity. He asked me what would happen to him when he died. He asked me what he should do to prepare to meet God. And I didn't know how to tell him anything. He was a Hindu. I didn't want to offend him by telling him only Jesus could save him. Lord have mercy! I hope he is not in hell because of me, for he was a good man and he had a good heart. I did mutter a few answers, and when it was time for me to go back to my desk, he asked me to tell his mother that he loved her, and he thanked me for not being afraid to stand near him and talk to him.

Now I'm feeling too miserable to keep talking. Please pray for his soul and pray for me. His name is Krishna - which is one of the popular hindu gods. I often wished his name was different, because I didn't like saying his name. I don't remember his mother's name, but I do remember what she looked like. Oh, how she loved him. She never complained once of all the pain that she was in. And whenever he'd walk into the room, it was like her sunshine had turned on. She'd turn quiet and start to beam. He never spoke much either. He'd sit beside her and beam right back. And of course, I know his face too...

Lord have mercy.

[Paul Cowan]

May God forgive us all our missed opportunities. May He also allow many more Do-Overs.


Did the police check the shelters, social services, etc.?

Effie
I never followed up. Again, my lack of love and concern for my "brother".

THE worst of sinners.
Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

I went to see his mother and she begged me to go to him and make sure he's comfortable, so I went. He had a few blankets on, but he was shaking so bad, and when they fell off, the slight breeze or the metal on the stretcher would send him into convulsions. He asked me to help him fix his blanket and I was scared. He promised me he wouldn't hurt me. What could I do? I knew him. I'd grown to love him like a brother. I started to go closer and someone walking by warned me not to. That gave me the last bit of courage I needed. (Or maybe it was foolishness.) I helped him with his blanket and I stayed near him, talking to him.

That's when I missed my opportunity. He asked me what would happen to him when he died. He asked me what he should do to prepare to meet God. And I didn't know how to tell him anything. He was a Hindu. I didn't want to offend him by telling him only Jesus could save him. Lord have mercy! I hope he is not in hell because of me, for he was a good man and he had a good heart. I did mutter a few answers, and when it was time for me to go back to my desk, he asked me to tell his mother that he loved her, and he thanked me for not being afraid to stand near him and talk to him.....

Lord have mercy.

Mary, you did help him. You were his good samaritan. In the madness of his sickness he knew you helped him and he thanked you. Hindu, Christian........
love, Mary. You gave him love. You respected his beliefs. Read the story of the Good Samaritan - what did he do. The man suffering was a Jew and yet his own people walked past. The Samaritan was not Jewish and yet he stopped and helped. Did he ask the man on the ground what religion he was? No, he stopped and helped. As you did.

The following is from Wikipedia :

"It is important to note that Samaritans were despised by the story's target audience, the Jews. The Samaritans were also largely taught by their interpretation of history to hate Jews.[1] Thus the parable, as told originally, had a significant theme of non-discrimination and interracial harmony."

Non-discrimination and interracial harmony. I once read of a Catholic priest who was the only one near a Jewish man when he was dying. The priest got down on his knees and said : "Hear, O Israel , The Lord our God is one Lord." These were the final words the Jewish person heard before he died.

[Paul Cowan]

I was in the hospital with Leah one day and was passing a room with a very elderly woman looking wantingly at me as I passed. I stopped and went back. She could not talk so I just held her hand for a few minutes and we smiled at each other.

Leah came and found me and said what are you doing?! She is in a contagious quarantine area. What are you doing touching her? I told her I felt she needed someone.

I went to the nurse and she told me to go sterilize myself and never do that again. I suppose God protected me from danger?

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

I was in the hospital with Leah one day and was passing a room with a very elderly woman looking wantingly at me as I passed. I stopped and went back. She could not talk so I just held her hand for a few minutes and we smiled at each other.

Leah came and found me and said what are you doing?! She is in a contagious quarantine area. What are you doing touching her? I told her I felt she needed someone.

I went to the nurse and she told me to go sterilize myself and never do that again. I suppose God protected me from danger?

Paul

Paul, Gerontissa Gabriela tells us that when she was in India, she ate the food the Indians ate, she drank well water, she washed the clothes of the lepers, she changed their dressings, she also invented a simple ointment for their wounds that proved to be very effective and was thereafter used widely for lepers. She could not get over the fact that a humble petroleum jelly based ointment had such miraculous healing powers. She hardly ever got sick, in fact once when she had a high temperature she realized that it was because of the fact that she got angry with some children for trying her physiotherapy methods on a cat which subsequently died. "The fever receded almost at once" when she acknowledged to herself that the children were not responsible but she herself for having failed to prevent it and for having "thoughts of judgement."

Her friend Sylvia Scapa wrote : I watched all the Missionaries (evangelists) boil the water before drinking it and yet suffer successive attacks of dysentery. On the other hand Lila (G. Gabriela's name before she became a nun) and I drank water from various wells, and even straight from the Ganges, without ever suffering any ill effects. I could see however that she always made the sign of the cross over the water we were about to drink, saying :
"In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." And after this she gave me to drink and drank herself."

Sylvia Scapa was a Jewish friend of G. Gabriela.

G. Gabriela ate little - rice, chapati, yoghurt, lentils and dried fruit - all very healthy as we know now. Perhaps her frugal diet was one of the reasons she never got sick. She was an amazing, tireless, woman, especially when we remember she was 61 years old when she was in India!

If anyone has not read "The Ascetic of Love" I encourage them to. It is such a terrific book and you will want to read it again and again.

[Paul Cowan]

Perhaps it would not be right for a church to accept money earned in this way purely because it might become a stumbling block for others. However, I think a similar form of donation - to the poor for example - would be a suitable way to deal with money won by lotteries or other such forms of gambling (while money won face-to-face in a game of poker with an aquaintance should be returned to the person who suffered the loss).


I was just reading the Lives of the Saints of Venerable Pelagia the Penitent. Interesting how the Bishop retitles with her worldly wealth.


Commemorated on October 8

Saint Pelagia the Penitent was converted to Christianity by St Nonnus, Bishop of Edessa (Saturday of Cheesefare Week). Before her acceptance of Christianity through Baptism, Pelagia was head of a dance troupe in Palestinian Antioch, living a life of frivolity and prostitution.

One day Pelagia, elegantly dressed, was making her way past a church where St Nonnus was preaching a sermon. Believers turned their faces away from the sinner, but the bishop glanced after her. Struck by the outer beauty of Pelagia and having foreseen the spiritual greatness within her, the saint prayed in his cell for a long time to the Lord for the sinner. He told his fellow bishops that the prostitute put them all to shame. He explained that she took great care to adorn her body in order to appear beautiful in the eyes of men. "We... take no thought for the adornment of our wretched souls," he said.

On the following day, when St Nonnus was teaching in the church about the dread Last Judgment and its consequences, Pelagia came. The teaching made a tremendous impression upon her.With the fear of God and weeping tears of repentance, she asked the saint for Baptism. Seeing her sincere and full repentance, Bishop Nonnus baptized her.

By night the devil appeared to Pelagia, urging her to return to her former life. The saint prayed, signed herself with the Sign of the Cross, and the devil vanished.

Three days after her baptism, St Pelagia gathered up her valuables and took them to Bishop Nonnus. The bishop ordered that they be distributed among the poor saying, "Let this be wisely dispersed, so that these riches gained by sin may become a wealth of righteousness." After this St Pelagia journeyed to Jerusalem to the Mount of Olives. She lived there in a cell, disguised as the monk Pelagius, living in ascetic seclusion, and attaining great spiritual gifts. When she died, she was buried in her cell.

[Nina]

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/5AE17C67.en.aspx

[Irene]

Seeing a beggar and having no change, he offered his sandwich. The beggar looked at it and said, 'no, I don't like cheese and pickle'!

Yes but he offered it! A young woman talked to a homeless person and after a little while she said I'm not hungry, I don't want my lunch do you want it and they took it gratefully.

The poor if they are able to, and if they are lucky enough to have somewhere, often hide, from shame, they don't always advertise their misery. The elderly, people with disabilities, people who are struggling to look after someone with severe mental or physical illnesses.

The poor get a bad wrap from the media and because of those who make an industry out of begging. The religious poor are at Church it is their joy, it is their solice, the place where they are accepted as equal, it is often their entire social life. The widow who puts the last of her money on the plate hoping that nobody notices the tiny amount she has put on the plate. "For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living." Mk 12:44 She still exists "For ye have the poor with you always".

Sometimes we need our eyes opened to see what is really around us. I know I do, I'm blind to anything that doesn't jump out and say here I am. The poor might be that woman that never smiles because she is trying to figure out whether to pay the rent, the electricity bill or feed her children.

The poor might be that person who wears that same outfit to Church everyweek and has done for years. Or may be it's two alternating ones but that is their "Sunday best" and the rest of the week they are in their "at home" clothes.

The poor might be the person that is low in spirits, that smile, that kind word that you give to a stranger has repercussions - it can make a lonely person's day. It can make them feel that they are not worthless after all. Yes just that tiny act of kindness.

If you do know someone who is struggling and you don't want to embarrass them, but somehow you want to help them out, if you visit them at their home, bring a meal, casually leave a small amount of money where they may have absent mindedly dropped it themselves and they will find it in a day or two and thank God for the mercy, that they can buy bread that day.

Offer to mow their lawn, especially if they are a neighbour, say you were doing yours anyway - when they want to pay say a cup of coffee is all you need. Yards are not always overgrown because people are lazy, sometimes people are sick, sometimes they can't afford petrol or don't own a mower.

Some poor may waste their money on cigarettes, alcohol, gambling, most do not, most struggle just to keep their kids dressed and fed.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Yes but he offered it! A young woman talked to a homeless person and after a little while she said I'm not hungry, I don't want my lunch do you want it and they took it gratefully.


Sometimes we need our eyes opened to see what is really around us. I know I do, I'm blind to anything that doesn't jump out and say here I am. The poor might be that woman that never smiles because she is trying to figure out whether to pay the rent, the electricity bill or feed her children.

.

Irene, yesterday I listened to a very good sermon on this subject on the Podcast section of the Ancient Faith website - Again Radio Journal. The speaker has had a lot of experience concerning this subject and his words gave me new insights into poverty in various countries.

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/audiojournal/

The first interview is the interview with Fr. David Rucker of the Orthodox Christian Mission Center speaking about our Christian calling to remember the poor in the world.


A terrific talk and well worth listening to.

Effie

[Irene]

The first interview is the interview with Fr. David Rucker of the Orthodox Christian Mission Center speaking about our Christian calling to remember the poor in the world.

A terrific talk and well worth listening to.

Effie

Thanks Effie, I'll try downloading it now. :) ....Irene

[Owen Jones]

The first step is to already give up everything in your mind that you have and that you cling to. If the thought of it makes you sad, you have a spiritual problem. I am saying this primarily to myself, btw. If the action makes you feel like you are a better person for it, this may also be a spiritual problem for you. Just the thought of having to give up things makes most of us very sad. Then nervous, then panicky. It's not about the money. It's about the delusion of control. We are not in control, and if we are really honest with ourselves we will recognize that and accept it. But we are not honest. We lie when we tell ourselves that by acquiring things like money, power and prestige, that means we are in control. It also gives us a false sense of redemption. That somehow our life is made meaningful and purposeful by being productive. Nothing wrong with this except when it crowds out the spiritual, which it typically does. In America there are many studies which show the income level people achieve before they become thoroughly secularized. Usually around six figures. They just stop going to Church, because they have found redemption. It's not just because they are decadent. Many people work very, very hard for their money, and do not live decadent lives, but the money means that they have redeemed themselves. So if you can redeem yourself, why do you need a Church, let alone God to help you? The Church does not moralize against making money. It suggests that true redemption is far more powerful than the powerful feeling that money brings. So we offer practices that make us less clingy, and allow us to explore at least the possibility that we are not the masters of our own destiny. And we are to fast until it becomes painful and we experience sorrow that we are giving up fine foods and calories and until we "work through" that sorrow we have discovered nothing. So there must be a pain of giving up something that we must go through before it is therapeutic in the spiritual sense. And for some, we must give up everything in order to learn anything or make any spiritual progress. The man who can make spiritual progress without experiencing disaster -- without having everything that he treasures ripped from him by force -- is truly blessed. If the Church is performing its mission, it guides people into a place where voluntary poverty and virginity and chastity are things we actually desire. But most of us are lucky to have just glimmers, or brief experiences of this reality because of our worldly responsibilities with families, etc. Which is why the Church must learn how to teach the desert in the backyard, the martyric virtues in the commonplace events of life.

[Nina]

One of the fathers who had gone to Constantinople to attend to some necessary business said to me: While I was sitting in the church, a man who was illustrious in the worldly sense but also a great lover of Christ came in; and when he saw me, he sat down. He then began asking about the salvation of the soul. I told him that the heavenly life is given to those who live life the earthly life in a seemly way.
"You have spoken well, father," he said. "Blessed is the man whose hope is in God and who presents himself as an offering to God. I am the son of a man who is very distinguished by the standards of the world. My father was very compassionate and distributed huge sums among the poor. One day he called me; showing me all his money, he said to me: `Son, which do you prefer; that I leave you my money, or that I give you Christ as your guardian?' Grasping the point he was making, I said I would rather have Christ; for everything that is here today shall be gone tomorrow. Christ remains forever. So from the moment he heard me say that, he gave without sparing, leaving very little for me when he died. So I was left a poor man and I lived simply, putting my hope in the God whom he bequeathed to me."
"There was another rich man, one of the leading citizens, who had a wife who loved Christ and feared God; and he had one daughter, his only child. The wife said to the husband: `We have only this one daughter, yet the Lord has endowed us with so many goods. What does she lack? If we seek to give her in marriage to somebody of our own rank whose way of life is not praiseworthy, it shall be a continual source of affliction to her. Let us rather look for a lowly man who fears God; one who will love her and cherish her according to God's holy law.' He said to her, `This is good advice. Go to church and pray fervently. Sit there, and whoever comes in first, he it is whom the Lord has sent.'"
"This she did. When she had prayed, she sat down and it was I who came in at that moment. She sent a servant to call me straightaway and she began asking me where I was from. I told her that I was from this city, the son of such-and-such a man. She said, `He who was so generous to the poor? And have you a wife?' I said I had not. I told her what my father had said to me and what I had said to him. She glorified the Lord and said, `Behold, the Good Guardian whom you chose has sent you a bride - and riches, so that you may enjoy both in the fear of God.' I pray that I might follow in my father's footsteps to the end of my days."

John Moschos, Leimonarion (The Spiritual Meadow) 201