Loneliness

[Anthony]

I have been talking to a number of friends lately who are oppressed by extreme loneliness - especially in the sense of not having a partner, but also more generally. I was wondering if anybody has any counsels from the Fathers to share on this subject.

[Paul Cowan]

I apologize I don't have the texts with me but St. Seraphim of Sarov talks about despondency in the "Little Russian Philokalia" and also are several chapters devoted to this in "Unseen Warfare" by Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain.

Also do a search in our archives on depression . We had a pretty good thread going on here recently about this.

Paul

[Anthony]

I am not sure that this is quite the same problem, though it may lead to both despondency and depression. Given that "it is not good for man to be alone", then the feeling of pain when one is conscious of being alone would seem to be in some sense a natural reaction of the soul, rather than a sin (despondency) or a medical condition (depression). But I may be wrong, and even if I am not it does not go very far towards a solution.

[Paul Cowan]

Genesis 2:20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

God gave Adam Eve not from lonliness but as a comparable help mate. Yes, also perhaps for companionship in the flesh, but until they ate of the fruit, they did not "know" each other and his and their communion was with God directly. I don't see Adam as being lonely, but needing help to tend the garden.

I dare say in this day and age, people are made to "feel" lonely by the media and advertising. I treasure my alone time. I cant get enough of it.

St. Paul says

7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.
8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Christians are not individuals. We are a community. We are only as alone as we allow ourselves to be. How many people need help? How many people need companionship? How many worth while causes are there in the world that need people to volunteer for?

I don't mean to sound harsh. Get a dog. Are these folks trying to occupy their time with another person? See the above paragraph. Or are they wanting to be intimate with someone? See the other above paragraph. How many worldwide dating services are there out there?

In my miserable opinion, loneliness is a self inflicted disease. If you (plural) don't want to be alone, get out of the house and go where the people are. My mother always told me if you want to marry a Christian woman go to a Christian church.

Paul

[Anthony]

Well, that is one possible approach, which is no doubt applicable to certain cases.

As I was saying, I was wondering if any of the Fathers have advice which bears on this problem. Or would they agree in dismissing it as a stupid question?

[Mary]

Well, that is one possible approach, which is no doubt applicable to certain cases.

As I was saying, I was wondering if any of the Fathers have advice which bears on this problem. Or would they agree in dismissing it as a stupid question?

It's not a stupid question. It could use some unravelling. I thought I"d never have to worry about being lonely again if I got married. So, that was my main reason for getting married. Imagine my surprise when I found out that I was lonelier after my marriage! Not right away - some 3 years later. How I wished I was single again, so I'd have a good reason to go looking for a friend!

But, I'm not lonely now. And it wasn't my marriage that fixed it. In fact, it's through friendships outside my marriage that I have found what I needed to get out of loneliness. I'm still working out the REAL purpose of marriage, because it sounds so base and animal to say that it's just for making kids.

My loneliness is not dependant on circumstances. It also doesn't depend on the close proximity of my friends or the amount or depth of conversations I have with them. It seems to have a LOT to do with the state of my heart. If I have peace, I have joy, and I am not lonely. I have peace, when things are right between me and God.

It also seems to be connected with the amount of activity in my life - if I'm idle, I have more time to think about useless things, and I end up lonely, or even worse. So, I'm guessing, loneliness is a sin, like the other worse things that I end up doing, when I am idle.

I learned a new word last week. Logismoi. I'd say, loneliness is a result of giving in to logismoi. But, don't take my word for it. You asked for words of wisdom from the Fathers, and I should've shut up, because I haven't read enough to give you an answer. But, I hope others will answer you, and me too. =)

In Christ,
Mary.

[Paul Cowan]

I learned a new word last week. Logismoi. I'd say, loneliness is a result of giving in to logismoi. But, don't take my word for it. You asked for words of wisdom from the Fathers,
In Christ,
Mary.

Mary,

I think you may have found part of his answer. I looked up Logismoi and found an Orthodox counseling website. However, it locks up my computer so I cannot give the URL for it. I typed in logismoi in Google and it is about the third one down.

How am I doing Mike?

Paul

[Mary]

"The thoughts which are connected with images as well as with the various stimulations originating from the senses and the imagination. The thoughts logismoi evolve to sin through the stages of desire, action and passion. They are called logismoi because they act in the reason (logiki)."




This definitions is from the following website: http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b01.en.a_night_in_the_desert_of_the_holy_mountain. 09.htm
You'll find a glossary, as you scroll down the page.
(Paul tried to teach me how to tuck url's between neat little words like: Click here, but I failed miserably and still haven't learned. I hope the long link works and didn't lose a few characters...)

So, I asked my friend who enlightened me, if I should treat all my thoughts like logismoi, and here's what he told me:



Don't treat everything like logismoi, but keep a healthy amount of suspicion on hand. Logismoi steal peace from the heart. That's one sign that something is a logismos. Often they also bring a kind of pleasure. Even negative thoughts such as self-pity and envy or even hatred, bring pleasure to us at a certain level. That's why it is difficult to renounce them.


That was really helpful to me, more than the definition from the website, especially the part about even negative thoughts bringing a certain level of pleasure! That is so true!! Well.... for me it is. =)

BUT, he's not one of the Fathers that Anthony was asking for teachings from, so please keep a healthy amount of suspicion on hand! =)

In Christ,
Mary.

[Nina]

I have been talking to a number of friends lately who are oppressed by extreme loneliness - especially in the sense of not having a partner, but also more generally. I was wondering if anybody has any counsels from the Fathers to share on this subject.

Dear Anthony,

From Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos in his book The person in the Orthodox Tradition (http://www.vic.com/%7Etscon/pelagia/htm/b23.en.the_person_in_the_orthodox_tradition.00.htm ):


Professor Christos Yannaras expresses the first. He gives us the definition of the person and its dimensions in philosophical-theological language. He says that self-consciousness, on the one hand, and otherness on the other, are what differentiates one person from another. These terms are used by the holy Fathers. For instance the term 'otherness' is used by St. Dionysios the Areopagite and St. Gregory of Nyssa. Yannaras writes: "We all understand that what differentiates personal existence from every other form of existence is self-consciousness and otherness. We call the awareness of our own existence 'self-consciousness', the certainty that I have that I exist, and that it is I who exist, a being with identity, an identity which differentiates me from every other being. And this differentiation is an absolute otherness, a unique, distinct, and unrepeatable character which defines my existence". But since this self-knowledge and otherness are not products of thought but of many factors which are being investigated by contemporary psychology as well, therefore the way in which the ego is formed and matures "is nothing other than the relationship, reference. It is the potential which constitutes man, the potential to be opposite someone or something, to have one's face-toward someone or something, to be a person" (pros-opon) . Thus "we use the word 'person' to define a relational reality. The person is defined as a reference and relationship and it defines a reference and a relationship".
I think these are the central points of this analysis of the person. They chiefly emphasise two characteristic points, properties, of the person, such as self-knowledge and otherness. And to be sure, these cannot be interpreted apart from reference, apart from a going and moving towards some other person. This means that the person does not know aloneness. It is not my intention to make a greater analysis of these points or more generally of the term 'person' in this sense.



We have said before that the person is the hidden man of the heart. Archimandrite Sophrony is epigrammatic and expressive when he writes: "Scientific and philosophical knowledge may be formulated, but the 'persona' is beyond definition and therefore incognisable from without, unless he himself reveals himself. Since God is a Secret God, so man has secret depths. He is neither the author of existence nor its end. God, not man, is the Alpha and Omega. Man's godlike quality lies in the mode of his being".
Therefore no one can define the person philosophically, but it is an object of revelation. And this revelation happens in the place of the heart. There man grasps that a change is taking place and that he is changing from a mask to a person.
The revelation and living of the person is also called man's rebirth. Man is given rebirth by divine grace and becomes a person, or rather it could be better formulated that the person is reborn from above. "The person is reborn from on High. An exquisite flower unfolds within us: the hypostasis-persona. Like the Kingdom of God, the persona 'cometh not with observation' (Luke 17:20). The process whereby the human spirit enters into the domain of divine eternity differs with each one of us".
The person transcends the earthly, for it is born of divine grace. It is not a revelation of man, but a revelation of God. "The 'persona' transcends earthly bounds and moves in other spheres. It cannot be accounted for. It is singular and unique".
To be sure, it must be added that the person is closely linked with the uncreated Light and love. "God reveals Himself, mainly through the heart, as Love and Light". The person cannot be understood without the revelation-vision of God and real love for God and man. The person does not know loneliness but he always moves in a relationship and lives this relationship. When a man discovers his heart by the grace of God, then he is truly and really a person.
This way in which the place of the heart, the core of man's existence - that which can be characterised as person - is discovered, is called hesychasm. It is the only method by which man is reborn spiritually. In using this method one can also be helped by the sacramental life of the Church; otherwise the sacraments work in a punishing way.

[Michael Stickles]

Mary,

I think you may have found part of his answer. I looked up Logismoi and found an Orthodox counseling website. However, it locks up my computer so I cannot give the URL for it. I typed in logismoi in Google and it is about the third one down.

How am I doing Mike?

Paul

Doing pretty good -- I just knew others had to have the "Gift of Google" too :-).

Interestingly, I was just reading about logismoi this past week in The Mountain of Silence by Kyriacos C. Markides. The book recounts many discussions he had with Father Maximos of Mount Athos (and later of Cyprus), and two of the chapters cover logismoi -- the first talks about what they are and how they attack; the other, how to deal with them. I highly recommend the book, and not just for that section.

A horribly abbreviated summary: Father Maximos said that the holy elders identified five stages in the development of a logismos: the assault stage, where it first atacks our mind; interaction, where you evaluate and consider it; consent, when you make the decision to do what the logismos urges you to do; captivity, when submitting to it becomes a habit; and finally passion or obsession, where the captivity becomes entrenched. He also spoke of three defenses against logismoi. The first is indifference, a refusal to interact with them (this is considered the most desirable defense); the second is the adversarial approach, similar to how Christ opposed the temptations of the devil in the wilderness; and the third is a splitting logismos, where you shift your focus away from the attacking logismos to a different one (not necessarily negative; Father Maximos says there are good logismoi) so as to weaken the first one. He also spoke of prayer and askesis as strengthening and empowering the soul to overcome logismoi.

Also, I found a good article on modern loneliness on the goarch.org website, URL:
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8158.asp

It contains numerous quotations from the desert Fathers, although I don't know if they are specifically of the type Anthony's looking for. I rather liked the quote from Abba Alonios:


"Unless a man can bring himself to say to his heart that he alone and God are present in this place, he will never find peace and rest of soul."

In Christ,
Mike

[Nina]

Dear Anthony,

Here is something that might help in the case of your friend, since her situation is more or less similar and it is an advise from a priest (http://www.pravmir.com/article_215.html):


I will say a few words about your current state, which you feel is almost exclusive to you: your feelings of loneliness and forsakenness.
I have not met one woman who did not suffer from this at one point or another. Obviously this is a part of the woman’s nature. God said to Eve at the point of the Fall: “thou shalt be attracted to your husband” This attraction (not really physical, but mostly psychological) acts in all lonely people, but is always a little bit different, is “decorated” and individualized. Taken from the rib of Adam, she searches for her spot to become complete once more. Please don’t take offence at my words, but rather look closely at what you are feeling. They are truly part of the “old person” and you need to not become despondent in your suffering, but instead battle with prayer, lent, reading a little the Fathers of the Church, physical work, and a little bit of fatigue sometimes. I end on this not for now. May God Bring you to reason, Bless you, and help you find the right way (for you) to His Kingdom.


Some more material not exactly about her, but food for thought and watchfulness of our souls when we start feeling lonely.



Another quote (http://www.orthodox.net/gleanings/angels.html):



When you are praying alone, and your spirit is dejected, and you are wearied and oppressed by your loneliness, remember then, as always, that God the Trinity looks upon you with eyes brighter than the sun; also all the angels, your own Guardian Angel, and all the Saints of God. Truly they do; for they are all one in God, and where God is, there are they also. Where the sun is, thither also are directed all its rays. Try to understand what this means. Elder Herman of Mt. Athos

Also there is an article: The community of the dessert and the loneliness of the cities (http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8158.asp).

[Andreas Moran]

I reckon a true friend is someone you can phone in the middle of the night and he doesn't mind.

[Anthony]

Thank you for these replies, and especially the sources given by Nina, relating the issue to the development of the human prosopon.

Contrary to Paul's post, I think loneliness is a problem that deserves to be taken seriously, as evidenced by allusions to it in the Psalms ("friend and lover you have taken away from me") - it seems to be a feeling which it is legitimate to bring before God. It is also interesting that it is in the context of sin (psalms of repentance), without itself being (apparently) sin.

Tentatively, I guess it can be seen as a symptom of the break of communion brought about by original sin, whose only solution is the restoration of communion with one another and with God that is found in Christ. (The mystery of marriage is also connected with the same mystery, as we know from St Paul.) I would be particularly interested if any of the fathers (or good modern Orthodox writers) relate loneliness to this kind of context.

[Paul Cowan]

Contrary to Paul's post, I think loneliness is a problem that deserves to be taken seriously

I did not mean for lonliness to not be taken seriously. Suicide is the #3 reason teens die in the US. Loneliness is 1 of many of the reasons.

I did mean to say, it is overcomeable if people "DO" something about it. To sit at home all day and night and complain about being lonely will not resolve being alone. Get up, get out and go do something with or at least amist other people.

Depression and despondency will set in if we mope around and do nothing about it. How many times did Christ heal someone of some ailment and they then had to go DO something. Wash at the well, go tell the priest, pick up your mat and go home, etc. We also have to DO something in our lives in order for Him to work in us.

Possible words of His..."I will heal your loneliness if you 'X'".


Matthew 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’


There is a difference between physical depression and chemical depression that Fr. David is more qualified than I to speak on. But there again, there are medications that can offset the chemical imbalances in the brain to help people. IF they want to DO something about it.

Paul

[Herman Blaydoe]

One cure for loneliness is to do things for other people. Volunteer work is one way. Good deeds can do more for the doer than for those helped. At one level, loneliness teaches us that we are strangers in a strange land, and that we should LONG for God. Helping others is one very real way to help ourselves.

On another note, at one point in my life I was pretty near rock bottom, and very depressed. But the awareness that no matter what, if everyone had abandoned me, if I were penniless and homeless, still I knew that God would be with me, and not forsake me, even if I did not feel His Presence, it was there, and He loved me even if nobody else did. And I felt a peace that I had never felt before, and a confidence that kept me going. I don't know how to describe or explain it, but the thoughts of either suicide or simply abandoning everything and just walking until I could walk no more in a random direction left me.

God is good. God is always there, no matter what. What a wonderful thought.

[Owen Jones]

Is it loneliness, or alienation? The Christian, of all people, is not alone in the world, but in a sense is alienated from the fallen world. We exist in both worlds, world and heaven, or, more precisely, in a state in between these two worlds. Where it might appear that some who have decided, or are led to live entirely in this world, are comfortable and happy, with many exciting friends, accomplishments that attract other people, etc., please disregard their outward appearance, and do not compare how you are feeling inside, with what they appear to be on the outside. Desire to make your inner spiritual world more dynamic, more interesting, perhaps not dramatic in the conventional sense of the term, i.e., emotional, but dramatic in the classic sense where there is both conflict and discord and harmony and resolution all going on at the same time. But if there is nothing happening, if there is no change going on, then that is death for the Christian (or any man -- except a man adept at cleverness can convince himself and others that he is very much alive, because he is filled with maniacal plans and activities.)

So it is a matter of perception. I would suggest, most importantly, not to compare oneself with others since the only thing you are aware of is what they appear to be to you, and only compare who and what you are this moment with a moment ago.

[Nina]

Yes, we are strangers here and this is very true. It was one of the lessons God taught Israel after they came out of Egypt, while heading towards 'the land of milk and honey'; teaching His people a sense of detachment from that and any material things which have enslaved humans throughout history.

Jewish people had to live for seven days in a sukkah which is a hut built according to rules God gave them in Leviticus. The commandment to live in a sukkah was as a reminder to them (and us) about the transience of life, our non-permanent status here on earth and that we need to rely on God for everything.

Of course they had to work to build the sukkah and everything had to be organic and the roof open and with organic material detached from earth. Note: material which grew on earth and detached from it, was to provide a bit of coverage as a mostly open, unattached roof.

All these rules, just to teach them a profound truth that, the Holy Fathers do not stop repeating: we are pilgrims on this earth, and Heaven is our true home and God is our Father and we should rely only on Him.

And you are right Anthony, I have read something about what you say in regards to the communion and this is why there is this yearning of people not to be alone. Sorry that I do not remember where I read it. Also I remember to have read that monastics (who live in unpopulated areas) fight with this temptation more than any one because it is so great.

Another important fact that approves your point about our innate desire to be in the presence of other people is the fact that hell is dark and other people can not see the person next to them, although they hear their suffering and cries. This is such a torture for them and as we know from the conversation of the skull of the pagan priest and Saint Macarios, a part of relief and some light to see the other person briefly came, when Saint Macarios prayed for them and lit a candle.

Also Metropolitan Hierotheos writes in the book Life After Death, that the soul when departs the body if it is attached to earthly and material things stays at first near by them and suffers a lot because there is no possibility of interaction since the soul does not have the body which can participate in such interaction (maybe that is why we hear about ghost stories so much and because of attachment to material things). This is in complete contrast with the soul that soars towards Heaven in the moment of departure. And of course Heaven is the communion of the deified with God.

Therefore, the bottom line and what Fathers always say, is to have in our mind constantly God and remember that we are in His presence unceasingly. I know that this is easier said than done and of course it is natural and normal for people to be together and create a family etc. which is so wonderful and blessed from God. However in the midst of suffering if we are mindful, we learn some of the most profound and beneficial spiritual lessons; and the endurance/ascesis during them is fruitful and might gift us with virtues which might not be possible otherwise. This I guess is part of the cross we need to carry during our fleeting life here.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Paul and others,

This has been an interesting thread already.

It strikes me that with regard to loneliness, one needs to separate the kind of discussions we can have on loneliness as a concept, as a reality - a thing to be understood, explored, and thus combatted; and the kind of discussion that can and should be had with a person who is lonely. The first type needs to feed the second (we cannot counsel on a thing we do not know or to some degree understand), but it is also true that in the face of actual loneliness, some of the 'thinking' is not helpful, even counter-productive. Not that there's been any evidence at all of confusing these here in the thread, but I say this just as a general 'disclaimer', that ruminations on a topic, and the actual experience of those pastoral moments when we sit face-to-face with a person struggling in loneliness, are quite different.

As to loneliness as a reality, part of what makes it such a complex issue is the variety of forms it can take. And our ability to confuse other things with it. Confusing solitude and loneliness is one of the most common conditions in the world (and again, 'confusing' not in a sense of sitting down and pondering these things and coming to the wrong conclusions, but experientially feeling and experience them as one and the same). Part of Christian living must be coming to understand what makes a soul truly lonely, and what are expressions of loneliness that actually betray uncontrolled passions. Is my loneliness actually a lack of pleasure? A lack of perceived pleasure? Misguided expectations about relationships and relating that make me feel dissatisfied? Owen notes the concept of alienation: do I perceive from what and from whom I am alienated, and from whom I am not, and cannot be?

These are rather more grandiose and amorphous questions than are likely ever to be helpful 'in the moment' of dialogue with a person who is lonely; but I think they are the kinds of issues that lie at the heart of the Christian response to loneliness.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Mary]

This statement prompted me to perhaps a more universal definition of "free" and "freedom". Freedom is not just "nothing left to lose" but rather freedom is "nothing left to fear" and to be free is to act without fear. Thus it is possible to be free and to be a prisoner at the same time, it is possible to be free and to be confined to your bed, to be secluded in a monastic cell, or even to be a slave. Freedom and free action is not an external state but a state of the heart.

External freedom (removing or controlling all things to be feared in one's environment) actually leads to less freedom and more fear. Look at how much fear we live in in the supposedly "free" country of the US. We fear terrorist acts, we fear corrupt industry, we fear coffee that's too hot from the drive thru, we fear our neighbor and so increasingly shut ourselves in our houses, we fear any form of discomfort. By creating a mythology that freedom is an external condition, we have only sacrificed more and more of it. The ultimate fear is, of course, death - but we don't often speak of that since we cannot control it.

But freedom is not external it is internal. The only antidote for fear is love (Perfect love casts out all fear) To be truly free is to be able to act with unrestrained and limitless love towards everyone else. A society which is based on the avoidance of fear but without the value of true love (greater love has no man than this than he lay down his life for another) can only lead to greater and greater fear. The only society which can truly be said to be "free" is one that is based on love, not one that is based on the avoidance of fear. The only "free society" is one that is based on and filled with the love of Christ. The capitalistic/democratic society and culture of the west is not free - for it is based on the avoidance of fear and its only true end is the loss of true (internal) freedom while pretending to have the (external) semblance of freedom. A society imbued with and based upon Orthodoxy sets its values not on external freedom, but rather upon the internal freedom which results from living in the love of Christ. In this sense, the Russian society, which has been steeped for a millennium in Orthodoxy and which has, in large part been shaped by Orthodoxy is much more a "free society" than is the US.

In Christ, I am free to lose everything - the whole world - without fear for in doing so I gain the only thing worth having, and that is the love of Christ which fills and transforms the soul. What is it worth to a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul? What will a man give in exchange for his soul? (Mk 8:36,37 for those of you who were listening on Sunday, the Sunday after the Cross)

Fr David Moser

Please forgive me for bringing this post in from the Russian Orthodoxy thread. It was so beautiful, and it has so much to ponder. And it kept popping up in my mind while pondering loneliness! Sorry, I do not have a very effective pop-up blocker... =)

Like Fr David said in his post, True Freedome is internal, not external. Can the same not be said of loneliness? (I couldn't find the antonym for loneliness!!) Anyway - what I want to say is - how much of our loneliness is truly dependent on externals? If our loneliness or Not-lonely-ness is dependent on external circumstances (lots of friends, lots of fun, marriage, etc) - then we're going to be like a reed tossed around by the wind. Our circumstances are going to be constantly changing, and we'll be a wreck if we change with the cirucumstances.

So, the antidote to loneliness has to be internal, something that isn't dependent on externals, especially, not something that is dependent on something temporary, that's limited to the world. I wonder, if Love is also the antidote for loneliness, like it's the antidote for fear?

In saying our lonliness is of our own making, I'm not in anyway saying we don't need others. We desperately NEED others! Without others, we're nothing, our talents and gifts are nothing, the whole world is nothing, even if it were still as perfect as Eden. Sunsets are beautiful, but are they not more beautiful and memorable when there's someone else to share it with? I love to make things with my hands. But I've never made anythign for myself. I make for others. I'd stop making things if I had no one to give those things to. It would be too depressing to have no one to give anything to.

So, perhaps, the reasons we get depressed and lonely, is because we stop giving. That's why everyone advices to go out and be a friend if you want a friend. But I know how much I hated that advice. When I am lonely, I am weak. I wish someone would else would take that advice and be a friend to me first, so I can be strengthened to at least get up long enough to be able to be a friend to someone else. I was afraid that I'd always be on the giving end, and no one would ever see that I too needed to be given to. So in my fear, I limited how much of myself I gave out, and got back less in return.

Those are idle thoughts. And like idle activities (playing computer games, going shopping, overeating, etc) - idle thoughts lead to sin too. It used to seem to me that going out to do something unrelated to my situation, or thinking thoughts unrelated to my issues, was pretending that they didn't exist; avoiding the obvious; being in denial. Isn't that what it seems like? I have a problem, and instead of working on solving it, I go look for someone else who has a problem and try to fix it for them? What I couldn't see was, in choosing to dwell on my own problems, I was feeding them, making them bigger than they actually were, till they got so big that they consumed me. I was feeding them myself - my energies, my strength, my creativity... and I am limited. I dont' think God replenishes me so I can just feed my own fancies! That's a good way of getting stuck in a viscious cycle.

Now I need to stop talking, before I get tangled up in my own tongue.


Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows. If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort. 2 Cor 1:3-7

In Christ,
Mary.

[Nina]

Dear Paul and others,

This has been an interesting thread already.

It strikes me that with regard to loneliness, one needs to separate the kind of discussions we can have on loneliness as a concept, as a reality - a thing to be understood, explored, and thus combatted; and the kind of discussion that can and should be had with a person who is lonely. The first type needs to feed the second (we cannot counsel on a thing we do not know or to some degree understand), but it is also true that in the face of actual loneliness, some of the 'thinking' is not helpful, even counter-productive. Not that there's been any evidence at all of confusing these here in the thread, but I say this just as a general 'disclaimer', that ruminations on a topic, and the actual experience of those pastoral moments when we sit face-to-face with a person struggling in loneliness, are quite different.

As to loneliness as a reality, part of what makes it such a complex issue is the variety of forms it can take. And our ability to confuse other things with it. Confusing solitude and loneliness is one of the most common conditions in the world (and again, 'confusing' not in a sense of sitting down and pondering these things and coming to the wrong conclusions, but experientially feeling and experience them as one and the same). Part of Christian living must be coming to understand what makes a soul truly lonely, and what are expressions of loneliness that actually betray uncontrolled passions. Is my loneliness actually a lack of pleasure? A lack of perceived pleasure? Misguided expectations about relationships and relating that make me feel dissatisfied? Owen notes the concept of alienation: do I perceive from what and from whom I am alienated, and from whom I am not, and cannot be?

These are rather more grandiose and amorphous questions than are likely ever to be helpful 'in the moment' of dialogue with a person who is lonely; but I think they are the kinds of issues that lie at the heart of the Christian response to loneliness.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Spot on about my post, actually. I felt so inadequate when trying to help Anthony about his friends here and because there are not so many direct sayings from Fathers about loneliness. I get lost without their guidance. :) And my ideas are very uncrystallized and I am unable to help.
But thank you for refocusing, clarifying and defining the issues Father Deacon Matthew.

[Andrew]

I think loneliness and despondency tend to strike at the worst when our senses are scattered among transient things, and our mind is divided and far from our heart. The heart begins to yearn for unity, within man, with other men, and with God. If the mind is still divided and giving into logismoi, the heart aches even worse.

I spent the majority of my life in a state of black despondency, loneliness, and despair. It wasn't until I entered the Church that I had any relief from this. I think most of it has to do with the mind... the demons will try to divide us, within ourselves, from others, and most of all from God. When we turn inward and reject the thoughts, and focus soley on God in heartfelt prayer, depression and loneliness go away. We feel quiet, sorrowful joy. And then that lovely joy is passed to how we perceive others, and we naturally bond and love others, uniting our lives with their's.

If your heart is warm from prayer, it is easy to talk and relate to anyone, I think. After prayer you can see that others are more valuable than you, so you ask them questions because you feel good in their presence, and that turns into conversations, and that turns into relationships.

[Father David Moser]

This topic took a bit of pondering before I could really respond well. I recall a couple times in my adult life when I felt lonely. Both of those times were right after some pretty major moves. When I first moved to the west from the midwest, I had a great episode of loneliness. It is true that I was married and had children but even so I had left behind my best friend - someone that I shared everything with (including our conversions to Orthodoxy). I would describe this person to others as being "like me only moreso" I was working and going to school and to Church, but there was no one with whom I could share my experiences and with whom I could "brainstorm" new ideas - especially spiritual experiences and ideas. (again, I was married, but my relationship with my wife was and is not quite the same - we share these things and that sharing is satisfying - it just wasn't the same. I needed (thought I needed) a male friend and confidant. I can't describe it more than that.) I did have friends and acquaintances with whom I socialized, but no one with whom I could really share the spiritual life (not even the local priest - he and I were very different and although I tried to establish such a relationship, it never really took. I should also mention that I was already a deacon at the time and that too changes your relationship with the lay parishioners) It was during that period however that I went through a great deal of spiritual and personal growth - and there was no one with whom I could really share what was going on. However, I think that this loneliness had a beneficial effect in that I was able to really solidify a lot of those changes in myself and my spiritual life focused on the relationship with Christ within me rather than on the relationship with another person. After about 3 years, I met the priest who would become my spiritual father for a time and he and I did mesh. I was able to pour out all this pent up stuff to him and no longer felt that loneliness.

The second episode of loneliness was not quite so severe or long, but was similar. I had been abandoned by this spiritual father (long story, not for here or really any public forum) and we moved to another state, another community where I started over again meeting new people. By this time I was a priest and part of my move was to establish a new mission parish (which is my parish now). Again, there was no one with whom to share my spiritual life. My relationship with my wife continued to be positive and yet there was something missing. My loneliness did not last long for in this move I had entered a new diocese where the brotherhood of clergy was very tight and supportive. Among my brother priests I found many who were compatible with my desire for this kind of close spiritual sharing. Those friendships are today still part of the foundation of my life.

I relate all this to try and help define a bit the concept of loneliness. Marriage, even a good marriage with a close and intimate relationship with your spouse, does not necessarily address loneliness. Just as no single person can be fully self sufficient, neither can a marriage be an isolated emotionally self sufficient entity. In the initial post on this topic, it was suggested that part of the "loneliness profile" was the lack of a partner (ie not married). While marriage, or the lack thereof, has its place in loneliness, it is not a cure for loneliness and thus a single person must not assume that simply by being married they will escape or cure their loneliness.

As persons we are indeed created in such a way that we are not really fit to exist alone, but rather we require a social network around us. Even the hermit monks who withdrew into the desert did not generally do so right away, but only after being formed and establishing an identity within a community - only then could they as a part of the community withdraw into isolation. And even then in withdrawal they were not alone for they had achieved a level of perfection that granted them an acute awareness of the spiritual world (thus their warfare with the demons) and we glorify them as "conversers with angels" (see the general magnification - velichaniye - for monastic saints)

It is also for this reason that the fathers strongly recommend that no one set out on his own but that he always have a spiritual companion and co-struggler. How often we see the importance of this in the lives of the saints. Now this co-struggler could be a spouse, but is not necessarily. It is only necessary that your co-struggler be of one mind and one heart with you and that the two together pursue Christ. When I moved initially, I lost this relationship with a "co-struggler" and it took a lot of time for me to find someone else with whom I could share in the same way. In hindsight I can also say that this period of time strengthened my relationship with my wife so that we are more effective "co-strugglers" today than in the past.

In the course of this discussion loneliness as a part of depression has been brought up and it is true that there is a close link (loneliness is one of the symptoms of clinical depression) however, I don't think that there is necessarily a one way causal relationship between the two but rather that they can exacerbate each other. Loneliness can bring on depression and depression can bring on loneliness. Once depression is part of the picture however, it is difficult, if not impossible to just "go out and meet people" or "get involved" to address the loneliness. The depression itself becomes a barrier to any activity that could cure loneliness. Depression (not despair) is actually a different topic and so I won't go into it much here.

As Fr Dcn Matthew mentioned, there is a difference between talking about the "reality" of loneliness as a phenomenon on one hand and talking to a person who is suffering from loneliness in a pastoral manner on the other. It is difficult, if not impossible, in my experience to give any true useful pastoral advice on the internet (too much depends on non-verbal cues and a comprehension of one's whole life), however, it is useful to talk about the phenomenon. One final thing that I will offer for consideration, is that the feelings of loneliness (like depression and other "negative" emotions) are not something to avoid or combat, but rather a condition that is useful to our spiritual life and we should strive to use them and even incorporate them into our whole life as elements of positive growth and development. These "negative emotions" can become unique conduits for us to experience the love of God in ways that are not possible otherwise.

Fr David Moser

[Paul Cowan]

Thank you Fr. David,

This last post helps me personally a great deal. I too have lost that special male confidant solely from lack of relationship maintenance. He and I are still friends, but not as we were before. I am sad over this, but very happy to see him when I do.


One final thing that I will offer for consideration, is that the feelings of loneliness (like depression and other "negative" emotions) are not something to avoid or combat, but rather a condition that is useful to our spiritual life and we should strive to use them and even incorporate them into our whole life as elements of positive growth and development. These "negative emotions" can become unique conduits for us to experience the love of God in ways that are not possible otherwise.


It does help me pour myself out to God more deeply knowing I at least have Him to talk to.

In Christ,

Paul

[Andreas Moran]

Reminds me of what Dr Johnson said: 'a man must keep his friendships in constant repair'.

[Anthony]

There have been many excellent posts over the last few days - thank you all. I have unfortunately been a bit preoccupied with the impending start of term (probably not the only one around here).

In terms of the distinction drawn by Fr Matthew, my main priority is that when people talk to me about loneliness, to make sure that what I say in reply is at least informed by an Orthodox theological understanding of what is, or might be, going on. There have been some helpful pointers in this direction. At the practical level I think the advice to get off their backsides and do something, though doubtless sound, is not particularly needed by the people I have in mind, who are generally quite active and with their own responsibilities; they are actually good examples of Fr Matthew's disctinction between loneliness and physical solitude, which do not always go together.

[Karena Hryniuk]

I may have to be corrected here but after reading all these posts, what Anthony might be trying to get at was not loneliness in the way of any illness, depression or self-centered reason. Those of us who live in various levels of solitary circumstances can experience loneliness at times but in a way far different than any of these things can cause. When one has a heightened relationship with God feelings of peace, grace, wholeness or unity can be very overwhelming and not only cause what we call loneliness but also leave us ignorant and possibly even sinful in how to express or where to put these emotions and feelings. This may be what is referred to as 'natural' or 'healthy' lonliness in the goarch article and should be taken to ones spiritual Father.

In Christ
~Karena

[M.C. Steenberg]

Thank you for those helpful thoughts, Karena. Perhaps we should also remember that loneliness, if experienced in a healthy way as part of a guided life, can be a thing of purification. It is a partner of solitude in helping one see the attachments he or she bears towards aspects and things in the world. It can be a tremendously useful tool in developing discernment.

INXC, dcn Matthew

[Peter S.]

There have been many good posts here, good for me to read, and this is an interresting topic.

We need unity and relationship with people. To see that we are One:

John 17.11: "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are."

Another thing I must mention is that it is good to remember other people, not nescesary pray for them) when you feel lonely. Maybe it is a cure in some ways. But then there is a danger of remembering their sins, and that must not happen. The hermits learned not to do that, or at least learned to be good in that fight before they left the community, and then hopefully became conversers with angels. They had to "be formed and establish an identity" before they went out as Father David mentioned.

Then they were united to people and God in the desert. And they remembered their own sins which is a part of hesychasm ( the Jesusprayer), which could cure their loneliness they maybe felt. Remembrance of ones own sins together with the remembrance of God.

As I see it says in one of Ninas quotations hesychasm is the solution to the loneliness (which is a feeling that results from the Fall) of the person (prosopon).

It is true that we are ailienated from eah other. (I m not sure of the distinction between loneliness and ailienation, but I think loneliness is a feeling and that loneliness is a feeling that comes and goes and ailienation is more permanent.) There is a distinction as Owen says. But maybe loneliness also is permanetnt? That it is just that we not always are aware of it? It is more than a feeling. Or at least a feeling that we cant get rid of (I m not a psychologist).

Life here is full of assumptions (and misunderstandings) and we have to live with that and learn from that here in this world.

Peter

[Owen Jones]

As a practical matter, everyone suffers, including God. God suffered as we suffered, for no good reason. He did so voluntarily, at our hands. We tried to kill God and He would not die. But He did not rise from the dead to play a cruel joke. He did not laugh at us and say, you stupid people, look what fools I made of you. He did so to put us at ease, and to demonstrate that we are not alone in this world. Perhaps this is helpful to some.

[Peter S.]

It is true that we are ailienated from eah other. (I m not sure of the distinction between loneliness and ailienation, but I think loneliness is a feeling and that loneliness is a feeling that comes and goes and ailienation is more permanent.) There is a distinction as Owen says. But maybe loneliness also is permanetnt? That it is just that we not always are aware of it? It is more than a feeling. Or at least a feeling that we cant get rid of (I m not a psychologist).


Life here is full of assumptions (and misunderstandings) and we have to live with that and learn from that here in this world.

Peter

To be more clear about this I can say that I think my experience of loneliness is connected to the awareness of that my life brings death and the fear of being alone, and this awareness is permanent, so maybe loneliness is something that we cant get rid of in a way? But loneliness comes and goes. I dont know much about the distinction between loneliness and ailienation that Owen asked whom we were discussing... Is there a link between these two? I think so. Or what?

What I ment we could learn from the painful experience of our assumptions about what that is hided in other peoples hearts (ailienation), is that this world is a fallen, unperfect world that brings death. And we are born into this kind of world, that means we are in a lost state when we are born. But Christ saved us from death, and he gave us life on the cross... That is wonderful. We will not be alone in the eternity with Christ and the saints.

Hope I was more clear now...

Peter

[Peter S.]

As a practical matter, everyone suffers, including God. God suffered as we suffered, for no good reason. He did so voluntarily, at our hands. We tried to kill God and He would not die. But He did not rise from the dead to play a cruel joke. He did not laugh at us and say, you stupid people, look what fools I made of you. He did so to put us at ease, and to demonstrate that we are not alone in this world. Perhaps this is helpful to some.

I hope you mean with this that Christ rose from the death to free us from death and give us eternal life. That is truly an ease... (We will not be alone with Christ in heaven.)

Peter

[Olympiada]

I am not sure that this is quite the same problem, though it may lead to both despondency and depression. Given that "it is not good for man to be alone", then the feeling of pain when one is conscious of being alone would seem to be in some sense a natural reaction of the soul, rather than a sin (despondency) or a medical condition (depression). But I may be wrong, and even if I am not it does not go very far towards a solution.
My advice would be to attend more divine services, and to get more involved with the parish fellowship. Join a lunch team, make candles, vacuum the chapel, change the water for the local animals, anything to get yourself more involved in parish life. Reach out to people in your parish. Stay in touch with them during the week. Talk about books, or kids, or anything that interests you.

[Anthony]

Thank you, I think this is good advice. But just to clarify once again, I did not start this thread about me, but about other people who are not necessarily Christians. They sometimes look to me for support, and I just wanted to try to find out the teaching of the Fathers about what is going on in these cases.

Personally I am used to living alone, usually in foreign countries, and am not normally troubled too much by such feelings. This probably makes me the wrong person to give advice, but I have to do what I can when asked.

[Nina]

Personally I am used to living alone, usually in foreign countries,

That makes you a cosmopolitis. :)

[Anthony]

I prefer that to a multinational, which some people have called me. :)

[Nina]

:) :) :) :) :)

It is good they did not call you UN.

[Anthony]

EU would be even worse. (Am I allowed to say things like that?)

[Nina]

EU would be even worse. (Am I allowed to say things like that?)

What can they do? Outcast you from EU?

[Anthony]

I was more worried about being outcast from Monachos. ;)

[Peter S.]

Maybe loneliness itself as the pain of feeling alone in your soul is nothing to fear, but depression as a result of that feeling is something to fight against?

I think loneliness is a natural feeling to the fallen man and one can "use" it as a tool to become a better person, f. ex to think about God as the one who makes you a whole person, and makes true relationships with others. But I know it feels not always like that for a lonely person.

Peter

[Mary]

Thank you, I think this is good advice. But just to clarify once again, I did not start this thread about me, but about other people who are not necessarily Christians. They sometimes look to me for support, and I just wanted to try to find out the teaching of the Fathers about what is going on in these cases.

Personally I am used to living alone, usually in foreign countries, and am not normally troubled too much by such feelings. This probably makes me the wrong person to give advice, but I have to do what I can when asked.

Not necessarily. I've struggled with loneliness, and every once in a while, I figure out how to deal with it, but I still wouldn't know how to help another person with their loneliness. In fact, I find myself to be less compassionate towards those who suffer from the same things that I suffer from, but refuse to fight it like I did. =(

So, I would be the wrong person to come to for advice! Perhaps they see that you are compassionate and that's why they come to you. Maybe all they really need is a listening ear, and once they've voiced their frustrations and pain, they'll figure out their own solutions...

[Andreas Moran]

We are communal beings and so we fear being alone as it feels unnatural (rather as we fear death because it is unnatural). We are never quite alone - we have our guardian angel with us.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I am reading Wounded by Love - sayings and thoughts of Elder Porphyrios.

On page 99 he says : "Where there is love for Christ, loneliness disappears. You are peaceable, joyous, full. Neither melancholy, nor illness, nor pressure, nor anxiety, nor depression, nor hell.

Christ is in your thoughts, in all your actions. You have grace and you can endure everything for Christ."


The above is just a tiny example of the beautiful truths in this book.

Anthony, if you have not read this book yet, I recommend it to you. There is so much information in it, so simply written that everything makes absolute sense and so many insights! This book is amazing. This is truly one of the best and most helpful books that I have read. It's going to take me a long time to absorb Elder Porphyrios' words.

One of the older membes of this forum, who no longer contributes to it, once told me that Elder Paisios took years to read a single book. He wanted to understand fully what one of the fathers was talking about.

Effie

[Anthony]

I agree very much with the recent comments to the effect that feelings of loneliness are natural because aloneness is unnatural (in fact I tried to say something similar in an earlier post). My comment that I am not normally too much troubled by it was by no means intended to suggest that this is a good thing.

Effie, thank you for your recommendation. I have noticed that several people here have been influenced by this book, and I will add it to my wish list.

[Owen Jones]

The comment from the Elder would suggest that he had some personal familiarity with the alternatives to peace.

One practical exercise for overcoming loneliness is to make a written gratitude list.

[Nina]

Dear Anthony,

I know that not all your friends are Christians, and that the examples below are about monastics mainly but since you asked about quotes from Fathers and this came by email to me with the Saints Lives I will post it here anyway, for the sake of the thread.



Once I asked him, "Father Herman, how can you live on this island,
alone in the forest? Do you not get lonely?"
He replied, "No, I am not alone, for God is there, just as He is
everywhere, and the Holy Angels are there also. How can I be lonely?
With whom is it better and more pleasant to speak -- people or angels?
Angels, of course!"and this too:



On Prayer
"The soul must be constantly ready and alert and always in contact with the spiritual headquarters, that is, God. Only then it will feel secure, full of hope and joy.

When I was in the army, during the war, I was a radio operator. I noticed, that we felt secure only when we communicated with the Army Division on an hourly basis. When our communication was limited to every two hours, we felt a little bit insecure; sometimes, when we could only be in touch with them twice a day, we felt uncomfortable, lonely and lost. The same thing applies to our prayer. The more we pray, the more secure we feel, on a spiritual basis, of course."

Selected from Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain
From the Conversations and Homilies of Elder Paisios

[Effie Ganatsios]

I agree very much with the recent comments to the effect that feelings of loneliness are natural because aloneness is unnatural (in fact I tried to say something similar in an earlier post). My comment that I am not normally too much troubled by it was by no means intended to suggest that this is a good thing.

Effie, thank you for your recommendation. I have noticed that several people here have been influenced by this book, and I will add it to my wish list.

Anthony, this loneliness lots of people experience is also perhaps due to the fact that family life has changed. In many countries families are not as close as they once were. Here in Greece, even when you want to be alone, this is not always possible. Being alone and loneliness are two separate things, I know, but when friends and relatives telephone constantly, or come around for coffee at least once a week, or get together for evening meals, talk, laugh, and have a good time, sometimes even dancing, then loneliness gives up and disappears (at least for a while). I should also say that I love being alone and am never lonely when I am. Loneliness can hit you when you are surrounded by people - it has to me.

Everyone experiences loneliness. I know I do. In the past I have sometimes cried bitterly because I felt such a stranger and so alone - and this is with a loving husband and son. But life needs strength - strength to just continue and strength to give your traitorous mind a good talking to. God will not let you down, just rely on Him.

Owen said something that is very wise - make a list of all the things you are grateful for in your life - look at this list every morning and try to add something more. Something else practical that might help is to look around and find something or somewhere where whatever you are good at, will help other people. Getting involved and helping others will also help you.

Just some thoughts of my own, from my own experience, that you might perhaps find helpful in some way.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Anthony,

I know that not all your friends are Christians, and that the examples below are about monastics mainly but since you asked about quotes from Fathers and this came by email to me with the Saints Lives I will post it here anyway, for the sake of the thread.

and this too:

Terrific post, Nina!

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Anthony,

..... since you asked about quotes from Fathers and this came by email to me with the Saints Lives I will post it here anyway, for the sake of the thread.

and this too:

Terrific post, Nina!

Effie

[Anthony]

Thank you Nina, those are excellent quotations. And I think Effie makes a valuable point about the breakdown of the family. In the cases I have in mind, although they have functioning families, I think the triggering factor has often been bereavement or divorce.

[Peter S.]

I should also say that I love being alone and am never lonely when I am. Loneliness can hit you when you are surrounded by people - it has to me.

EffieIt has to me too.

I think it is unnatural to be alone in the meaning that it is unnatural to be without God. When you pray alone you can still be not alone, but with God.

I dont remember the story well but I read it somewhere here that a hermit ( I dont remember the name), was asked why he wanted to live alone and not in the world and answered that in the world there are many "wills", but in heaven the will is One. And he experienced to be in that community when he lived alone as a hermit. He did not feel lonely when he was alone.

The many "wills" is a result of the Fall which can lead to loneliness.

In the Eucharist Christ wants to reestablish the right community among people, the community the hermit experienced and talked about, and that every orthodox can experience in partaking in the sacraments in Church.

I also believe that one can be in this "good community" with God other places than inside the church-building, but still be in the Church, like it happened to be with the hermit in the story.
(I am not an expert in defining what the Church is and what it is not, but I know there is a heavenly Church which is linked to the unperfect earthly Church).

It is inside the Church that man can be in the rigth fellowship and right Community with people and God that it was ment to be; a Community which leads away from loneliness and aloneness.

Peter

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I should also say that I love being alone and am never lonely when I am. Loneliness can hit you when you are surrounded by people - it has to me.

Effie

It just struck me that the worst of loneliness can occur when we begin to question or doubt our being alone. Interestingly though this questioning often actually arises in connection with our relations with others.

Perhaps this is a clue as to what loneliness actually is then: that it comes from an inner maladjustment in regards to others but arises from a distance from God in ones own heart.

Thus the cure must be connected to being at one with God in ones' heart. Then all relations with others fall naturally into place no matter where they are in proximity to oneself.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Owen Jones]

Self examination is necessary. My loneliness is essentially an aspect of my self-centered nature. If I work diligently to root out all self-centeredness in thought and action, I will find the communion with God and others that I seek. Feelings of loneliness are often accompanied by a sense that I am entitled to more respect, admiration, understanding, friendship and approval of others than I am getting. This can lead to feelings of self-pity and further isolation. Again, the problem is essentially one of self-centeredness, making unreasonable demands on others, instead of making reasonable demands on myself. All things are possible with God's help, including a complete change of attitude and inner disposition. If I am plagued by feelings of loneliness, only I can change that. It is my problem not yours. I cannot expect others to change so that I will feel better. Often, these feelings can stem from a false assumption about others, based on their outward appearance. I should not compare my inward thoughts and feelings with the outward appearances of others, who seem so confident, happy, self-assured, fulfilled, because this is likely a mask that they wear. And so I am basing my inner life on a false perception.

This is why Orthodox Christianity is primarily a way of applying proven methods to change one's capacity to perceive reality as it really is, and not as it appears to be based on fallen faculties of perception.

Conversely, it does not mean picking apart other peoples' faults either. The action required is to treat others as I wish to be treated, with lovingkindness and understanding. Anything to get out of my self-centeredness. That is the key.

I am reminded of a great phrase, I think from Origen. God is a consuming fire, and according to our inner disposition we either are illuminated or burn.

[Nina]

I am reminded of a great phrase, I think from Origen. God is a consuming fire, and according to our inner disposition we either are illuminated or burn.

This is also what Metropolitan Hierotheos says about Heaven and Hell. Depending on spiritual preparation humans will either be illumined by the Uncreated Light, or burned when in the next life.

[Peter S.]

It just struck me that the worst of loneliness can occur when we begin to question or doubt our being alone. Interestingly though this questioning often actually arises in connection with our relations with others.

Perhaps this is a clue as to what loneliness actually is then: that it comes from an inner maladjustment in regards to others but arises from a distance from God in ones own heart.

Thus the cure must be connected to being at one with God in ones' heart. Then all relations with others fall naturally into place no matter where they are in proximity to oneself.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Yes I believe it is so as you say.
Our relations with others also reflects the fact that we are alone, and this aloneness is not natural.

The longing to God is connected with loneliness and aloneness, and yes, we are alone in this world. This aloneness is not natural, but a result of the Fall.. The hope is to be fully united with God and others in spirit. The longing to reconciliation with God (and others) reminds me of St. Silouans writing called "Adams lament".

The full reconcilement with God will happen when Jesus comes back to bring us home, but it is possible to be reconciled with him in this world in some way, as the saints especially are. Their relations to others are as it should be, because they always have God in their hearts. They have aquired the Holy Spirit and are not lonely.

Peter

[Vasiliki D.]

Yes I believe it is so as you say.
Our relations with others also reflects the fact that we are alone, and this aloneness is not natural.

The longing to God is connected with loneliness and aloneness, and yes, we are alone in this world. This aloneness is not natural, but a result of the Fall.. The hope is to be fully united with God and others in spirit. The longing to reconciliation with God (and others) reminds me of St. Silouans writing called "Adams lament".

The full reconcilement with God will happen when Jesus comes back to bring us home, but it is possible to be reconciled with him in this world in some way, as the saints especially are. Their relations to others are as it should be, because they always have God in their hearts. They have aquired the Holy Spirit and are not lonely.

Peter

Hi, this is a thread very close to my heart. Loneliness is something I too battle with on a daily basis. I have read a multitude of responses here ... some absolutely lack compassion and those people writing in that style should reflect about the word 'compassion' rather than judge a 'lonely' person as one who 'isnt doing anything about it'. Other people, are very warm and also offer some great explanations on different forms of loneliness and others of course have pointed out that there are differences between loneliness, being alone and being depressed and so on and so forth.

Not all people do nothing about loneliness ... so we really need to display compassion for this illness. We have to consider that each person has a unique situation that they experience as compared to another person, and each person has different environmental conditioning, support networks, skills, intelligence, confidence etc etc and to expect each person dealing with loneliness to react in the same way is to not really show understanding.

Another thing I have been philosophising with our fellowship leader (who is also a doctor) about this topic is that not everyone experiences loneliness because they are sinning ... this is the general theological outcome a lot of people conclude because of many writings by the Elders of our church but we must exercise some discernment because they write or speak to the majority of situations and not all.

What we discussed was that loneliness could also just be a cross that God gives you to bare; simply by being patient with the 'feeling' that is in your soul you are expressing your love and trust in God's providence for you ... He is also a God who helps us move forward in our spiritual journeys by allowing such inflictions for the sheer purpose of being rewarded by the FRUITS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! Think about it? If someone has searched to find the problem/cause to their loneliness and just cant .. perhaps merely by living with it, in patience, God rewards them with this fruit ..the fruit of patience!

Also, some sins are lesser to a greater sin! This is a hard one to explain but I heard a nun called Mother Melania, she is from the US, and explained this concept really well ... once I find the link I will post it here because you will ALL love her!

God Bless. I am a struggler of loneliness and not ashamed to confess it ... it is the #1 emotion that people deal with and warrants everyone's love and patience and compassion and understanding!!!

[Justin Farr]

God works in mysterious ways. I was fixing to post a thread inquiring about loneliness on another Orthodox forum, when I decided to mosey on over here for a second (and I haven't been here in awhile) and check the unread threads, and this was one of the first few...

And I spent about an hour pouring over this thread, responses, etc. and really trying to absorb it all. This thread is so full of wisdom. I am so glad that I have found it. I struggle greatly with this. I cry all the time, and it is so painful. So painful.

This thread helped me to understand things more, though. It's still painful, but I have a better understanding of the subject now.

There were so many illumining things, but perhaps the most was mentioned by a few different people - marriage to a loving spouse and having a family isn't necessarily a cure to loneliness.

[Vasiliki D.]

God works in mysterious ways. I was fixing to post a thread inquiring about loneliness on another Orthodox forum, when I decided to mosey on over here for a second (and I haven't been here in awhile) and check the unread threads, and this was one of the first few...

And I spent about an hour pouring over this thread, responses, etc. and really trying to absorb it all. This thread is so full of wisdom. I am so glad that I have found it. I struggle greatly with this. I cry all the time, and it is so painful. So painful.

This thread helped me to understand things more, though. It's still painful, but I have a better understanding of the subject now.

There were so many illumining things, but perhaps the most was mentioned by a few different people - marriage to a loving spouse and having a family isn't necessarily a cure to loneliness.

Hello dear Justin, I have sent you a friend request - I really hope you accept it - it would make me so happy if you do!

I can read something special in your comment here but more about that another time ...

Loneliness is not a unique situation ; it is experienced by many people for many different reasons. The key that unites all of us is that we do not have someone to talk about our most inner deep feelings ...

We live in a fast society that is governed by consumerism and vanity. There is no time for people to be deep anymore; to appreciate the small things in life ...

They say that our attention span now has reduced to 40 seconds! Do you realise the implications of this! What if someone has a speech impedement and takes longer than a minute to formulate a thought and pull a sentence together? Who has the time to patiently sit there and listen .... let alone CARE.

So, loneliness for most people is not because you are a freak. Not because you dont have friends or unpopular ... loneliness is not being able to find people who relate to your true self ... to open up and to share the real person u are!

I welcome your reply to this ...

In Christ! A sister from Australia.

Oh ... and a PS. If you have not been on Monachos for a while and was drawn to it for this exact topic and this topic came up ... then you need to explore this conversation further with me ...it would appear God has placed you in my path and vice versa so we can both learn something so BRING IT ON :-) Lets talk loneliness.

[Justin Farr]

Vasiliki, I know of another Orthodox person from Australia. Her name is Kyriaki/Kyrie. I only mention this because perhaps you two attend the same parish? :)

I think you hit on a lot of key points, and I think that, for many people, it can stem from not having that person to truly relate to and be open with (as, I believe, Fr. David Moser mentioned in his lengthy and insightful post where he mentioned his several moves). Though I don't think this is always the case. I, for example, do have that someone. He is like a big brother to me, and we love each other very much. We rejoice in one another's ups and weep with one another in each other's downs. I confide pretty much everything in him. So, for me, I have that person, and I know he loves me deeply. I also have family and friends who I know love me.

I find loneliness in general interesting. Most of us who experience such painful heartache wrough from loneliness have people in our lives who truly do love us and care for us deeply - yet we are still lonely and experience a great deal of heartache.

I'd love to converse about this more. :) I'm not sure exactly how far I can go on a public forum in specific instances which wrap up more or less the entirety of my specific loneliness, but that can always be addressed via PM.

With love in Christ,
Justin

[Vasiliki D.]

Hello again Justin, no .. I dont know a Kyriaki and believe it or not Australia is a HUGE place so the odds are tiny that I know ur friend :-)

My type of loneliness is not due to not having someone special in my life (ie. Marriage or a relationship) from what I understand most people have a "sexual/relationship loneliness" which is distinct from all other types of loneliness(es) which are manifest into people pshycosomatically I suppose.

Some loneliness could be experiences purely because people lack the right balance of nutrition in their diet and could therefore be a borderline somatic-depression. My first recommendation is that people first consult with a doctor and check their blood tests to see that everything is in balance. If everything is ok ... then we proceed into the second stage which is to look at the spiritual/emotional/social/intellectual balance of a person. Each of these categories are separate but definately influence each other.

[Vasiliki D.]

For those who are allowed to see video's then I would like to recommend this one:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=x0dMBqtGtOU

It is the song "Fragile" by Sting ...

I really love this song .. because it reminded me of the word "fragile" .. this is not a term I noticed throughout this thread ...

When a person feels "loneliness" is it agreed that in most cases the feeling of loneliness is somewhat inclusive of a sence of being fragile ... helpless .. errr ...(words?).

Such adjectives could help in exploring this issue ...?

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi, this is a thread very close to my heart.



What we discussed was that loneliness could also just be a cross that God gives you to bare; simply by being patient with the 'feeling' that is in your soul you are expressing your love and trust in God's providence for you ... He is also a God who helps us move forward in our spiritual journeys by allowing such inflictions for the sheer purpose of being rewarded by the FRUITS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! Think about it? If someone has searched to find the problem/cause to their loneliness and just cant .. perhaps merely by living with it, in patience, God rewards them with this fruit ..the fruit of patience!


!!

Vasiliki, all of your post gave me something to think about, but the above paragraph is particularly interesting.

I believe that patience in accepting and living with not just loneliness but also illness, a troubled homelife, etc. is especially beneficial. A strange fact of life that I have noticed (don't forget my age!!) is that once we accept whatever troubles us and learn to live with it, somehow the situation improves. Perhaps not fighting our troubles opens a path to God and allows His grace to reach us.

Happy New Year. Up here in North Greece we make special New Year Pies/Pitta. Vasilopitta. But not the sweet cake that is made in other parts of Greece. We make a proper pitta and put the lucky coin in it. I bake it and place the lucky coin (gold florin) in it. My husband turns it three times, makes the sign of the cross over it three times and then starts cutting.

First portion is for Christ, the second for our Panayia, the third is for St. Basil and the fourth for the house. We then proceed with whoever is at the table. The new year will be good for the person who finds the coin in their portion.

The English have their delicious Christmas puddings and a similar custom.

If the coin falls in the first four portions it is also considered very beneficial for all who live in the house.

Chronia Polla kai Kali Chronia.

Effie

[Vasiliki D.]

Vasiliki, all of your post gave me something to think about, but the above paragraph is particularly interesting.

I believe that patience in accepting and living with not just loneliness but also illness, a troubled homelife, etc. is especially beneficial. A strange fact of life that I have noticed (don't forget my age!!) is that once we accept whatever troubles us and learn to live with it, somehow the situation improves. Perhaps not fighting our troubles opens a path to God and allows His grace to reach us.

Effie

Yes, this is where I was hoping the thread would move towards with my statement ... it is exactly this that we read about ... not all afflictions are due to sin ... poor old Job - what would he say to this ... it is clear in his story that he was lonely and depressed (how can I say lonely when he had three friends around him?)

He was lonely because they were not listening to him they were criticising him ..showing no compassion to his plight and rather trying to find reasons what he had done WRONG so that God would punish him ... but the beauty of the story was that God permitted his afflications because of the devil's request to test Job and God in his great FAITH in Job that Job DID love him allowed it to strengthen Job and to prove to the devil that his servant was worthy of love.

Afflictions are education ... education is betterment of self ... betterment in the Orthodox language would be Fruits of the Holy Spirit?

[Nina]

He was lonely because they were not listening to him they were criticising him ..showing no compassion to his plight and rather trying to find reasons what he had done WRONG so that God would punish him ... but the beauty of the story was that God permitted his afflications because of the devil's request to test Job and God in his great FAITH in Job that Job DID love him allowed it to strengthen Job and to prove to the devil that his servant was worthy of love.


This is such an insight! Thank you for teaching me to be a better friend by listening more attentively and not judging.

[Robert Hegwood]

There was a Protestant author, Jesse Penn-Lewis I used to read several years ago from the time of the Welsh Revival, a lady preacher who had been influenced by the writing of madame Jeane Guyon who said something once with regard to crosses I still think true.

She said everybody has crosses. Some come and go, but there are others that stay with us for a long while even throughout our entire lives. These life long crosses are gifts from God, special points of identity with Christ's incarnational sufferings through which we may be more deeply grafted into His life. For some it is poverty, others are always misunderstood, and yet others perhaps are lonely never having a close friend in whom to confide. What we must do is to receive all our crosses both short and long with patience and with gratitude.

To riff upon Madame Guyon, no man can crucify himself another must do it for him. Even the Son of God had to be crucified by others. And this is good for our Father knows better than we do what in us needs to go to the cross and what crosses work best to mortify our wills and thus what best equips us to follow Christ according to His will and not our own.

Granted neither Madame Guyon nor Jesse Penn-Lewis were Orthodox, the first was a Catholic quietist the second an early evangelical pentecostal (of a better sort if you ask me than the crop in charge today), but in these thoughts I think the come rather near to it.

[Peter S.]

Hi Vasiliki,

You ought to tell what you didnt like with my post, (or what you liked), since you posted it. You cant just say that some posts here lacks compassion, and post mine without commenting it.

I also know about loneliness, and have had many experiences with it. I try to live with it, because I have to. May be it dissapears one day, when I have insight. If not I can learn patience, and suffering is not always bad.



He was lonely because they were not listening to him they were criticising him ..showing no compassion to his plight and rather trying to find reasons what he had done WRONG so that God would punish him ... but the beauty of the story was that God permitted his afflications because of the devil's request to test Job and God in his great FAITH in Job that Job DID love him allowed it to strengthen Job and to prove to the devil that his servant was worthy of love.

Are you saying that humans can be worthy of God's love? God loves everyone, and love is something that shouldnt be connected with worthiness. 1John 4:7-11 tells about love.

I know loneliness can be a result of not have been listened to, as you say. : )

Peter

[Vasiliki D.]

Granted neither Madame Guyon nor Jesse Penn-Lewis were Orthodox, the first was a Catholic quietist the second an early evangelical pentecostal (of a better sort if you ask me than the crop in charge today), but in these thoughts I think the come rather near to it.

Just because someone is not Orthodox it does not mean they do not have a valid point that we can observe and even take on as our own ... many of the famous Church fathers communicated in a civilised way with different people and the dialogue's can be quite beautiful!

This information I found very englightening and I gave it a thumbs up!

[Vasiliki D.]

Originally Posted by Peter S. http://www.monachos.net/forum/images/misc/quote_magn.gif (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=53831#post53831)
Yes I believe it is so as you say.
Our relations with others also reflects the fact that we are alone, and this aloneness is not natural.

The longing to God is connected with loneliness and aloneness, and yes, we are alone in this world. This aloneness is not natural, but a result of the Fall.. The hope is to be fully united with God and others in spirit. The longing to reconciliation with God (and others) reminds me of St. Silouans writing called "Adams lament".

The full reconcilement with God will happen when Jesus comes back to bring us home, but it is possible to be reconciled with him in this world in some way, as the saints especially are. Their relations to others are as it should be, because they always have God in their hearts. They have aquired the Holy Spirit and are not lonely.

Peter
Hi Vasiliki,

You ought to tell what you didnt like with my post, (or what you liked), since you posted it. You cant just say that some posts here lacks compassion, and post mine without commenting it.

I also know about loneliness, and have had many experiences with it. I try to live with it, because I have to. May be it dissapears one day, when I have insight. If not I can learn patience, and suffering is not always bad.


Are you saying that humans can be worthy of God's love? God loves everyone, and love is something that shouldnt be connected with worthiness. 1John 4:7-11 tells about love.

I know loneliness can be a result of not have been listened to, as you say. : )

Peter

Peter, I am a little confused by what you are asking me ... forgive me if I accidently included your post in my original response (?) my comment was NOT directed at you in anyway. Second point I want to make is that I CAN say that some posts lack compassion (because there are so many it would be hard to figure out which ones I am referring to).

However I can not say which ones I think these are. I do not like and do not want to focus on a specific person and target them because (a) it embarreses them in public which is not nice and (b) perhaps I am the one that has misunderstood what they have tried to say (when we post things on the Internet often our true emotions/feelings are not captured right) and I dont want to incite negative feelings or attitudes unnecessarily.

I am not saying humans can or can not be worthy of God;s love .. I was saying with the story of Job that it is amazing that what people think was the problem/cause of Job's loneliness and misery was NOT what God knew was the problem/cause of Jobs misery ... my point was (and I make this point at discussion groups at Church) that when we talk about depression or loneliness lets not be quick to ASSUME that it is because of SIN or something a person is doing wrong because this is not always the case ...

Especially at fellowship groups at church, when we all focus on the sin only ... it really tends to isolate people and they feel that they cant open up about their true problems because they become embaressed because they fear that they will be perceived as terrible sinners who have done something wrong!

Ola Amigo :-) Loneliness seems to be the 21st century form of martyrdom for Christians me thinks!

[Vasiliki D.]

I was browsing and came across this in one of the Users quotes, it seemed appropriate:

"The Lord loves people, but sends them sorrows, so that they can understand their weakness and be humbled, and for their humility they can accept the Holy Spirit. With the Holy Spirit all is good, all is joyous, all is wonderful." St. Silouan

[Effie Ganatsios]

Granted neither Madame Guyon nor Jesse Penn-Lewis were Orthodox, the first was a Catholic quietist the second an early evangelical pentecostal (of a better sort if you ask me than the crop in charge today), but in these thoughts I think the come rather near to it.

Robert, Happy New Year.

Can I just say that a lot of wisdom is to be found in non-Orthodox writings. Two favourite authors of mine are Catherine Marshall and Hannah Whitall Smith.

Even Mother Gabriela, on her list of books to read, includes
The Cloud of Unknowing and The Imitation of Christ.

Effie

[Peter S.]

Peter, I am a little confused by what you are asking me ... forgive me if I accidently included your post in my original response (?) my comment was NOT directed at you in anyway.

then you must click the "Reply to thread" button and not "Quote & Reply" button next time if you shall not quote.

Peter

[Effie Ganatsios]

Something Peter said made me remember something I always believed but hadn't thought of in quite a while. I don't know why I forgot this.

I always believed that the loneliness we sometimes feel so intensely in the midst of our happiness and contentment is our soul's longing to be reunited once more with our Maker.

We sully our soul's pureness with so many sins, little dirty sins just as envy and pride and maliciousness, and meanheartedness. Why wouldn't it long to be where it is supposed to be before it is utterly destroyed by our egos.

Thank you Peter for reminding me of something I have not thought about for some time.

Effie

[Vasiliki D.]

Something Peter said made me remember something I always believed but hadn't thought of in quite a while. I don't know why I forgot this.

I always believed that the loneliness we sometimes feel so intensely in the midst of our happiness and contentment is our soul's longing to be reunited once more with our Maker.

We sully our soul's pureness with so many sins, little dirty sins just as envy and pride and maliciousness, and meanheartedness. Why wouldn't it long to be where it is supposed to be before it is utterly destroyed by our egos.

Thank you Peter for reminding me of something I have not thought about for some time.

Effie

Yes, this is a valid form of loneliness ... this is a perfect loneliness actually ..is this perhaps that kind of loneliness that ascetics feel prior to realising monasticism and that drives them towards monasticism?

Perhaps this form of loneliness is the loneliness that drives others to marriage instead?

Seems like we have found a new area of loneliness exampled with two cases that have nothing to do with sin :-)

[Peter S.]

I think Adam lamented because he was away from God. And that is sin and loneliness. But that is not the only explanation of sin and of loneliness.

Peter

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

Prayers and best wishes for the new year. Two small things for this thread:

(1) Please could we aim to keep focused on the patristic foundations of the issue: the recent tenor, while interesting, seems more suited to the 'casual and personal conversations' area. This thread can be moved there, if what is desired is more the sharing of personal reflections; but it does seem that earlier in the thread there was some more focused examination of loneliness in the Orthodox witness.

(2) Please could all members, in this thread and in others, use the 'Quote & Reply' feature to quote only those portions of posts to which you are directly replying. A great number of recent posts have quoted the entire contents of previous messages, which simply takes up a great deal of space on the page unnecessarily. For more information on quoting messages in replies, please read here (http://www.monachos.net/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_read_and_post#faq_hb_quoting).

With many thanks, INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Owen Jones]

I think of the writings of the Philokalia as the full development of the interior life, but for the life of me I don't recall a text devoted to the problem of loneliness. Perhaps the equivalent for them would be acedia, which is a kind of depressed feeling. The context here on this thread seems to be a kind of loneliness that leads to this feeling.

The approach of the Desert Fathers seems to be to not focus on the problem so much as the solution. You don't start out addressing a problem. You are presented with the solution,e.g. watchfulness, stillness, etc.

Someone commented that loneliness can come from feeling that you are not being listened to. I think what the desert fathers would say, if they were to even speak in these terms, is that loneliness is the result of a lack of listening. Attentiveness I think is really the term they use. To be attentive is to become aware of the presence of God in all things. So the ascetic practice of attentiveness prevents any feelings of loneliness. I think this is a fair and accurate summary of the approach of the desert fathers, but I am open to criticism on this, if anyone cares to comment.

Loneliness is a very typical "modern" problem, because we are engaged in too much activity, mental and physical. This activity dulls the spiritual senses so that we are not able to sense the presence of God. This activity is largely a fixation in order to be able to avoid looking at the soul, and to avoid spiritual work.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Owen wrote:



Someone commented that loneliness can come from feeling that you are not being listened to. I think what the desert fathers would say, if they were to even speak in these terms, is that loneliness is the result of a lack of listening. Attentiveness I think is really the term they use. To be attentive is to become aware of the presence of God in all things. So the ascetic practice of attentiveness prevents any feelings of loneliness. I think this is a fair and accurate summary of the approach of the desert fathers, but I am open to criticism on this, if anyone cares to comment.

Loneliness is a very typical "modern" problem, because we are engaged in too much activity, mental and physical. This activity dulls the spiritual senses so that we are not able to sense the presence of God. This activity is largely a fixation in order to be able to avoid looking at the soul, and to avoid spiritual work.

Yes- I think this very common problem relates to a critical need to grow in faith. But in the sense you have described. That is the soul's reliance on God rather than the things of this world.

This is difficult for the reasons you also indicate- too much clutter with other things.

But the problem is made much more stark nowadays because we also live in a far more fragmented society than previously. So it is easy for someone to touch this loneliness very easily.

What a fellow priest once told I think to be very correct. It takes very little busyness for us to feel like our lives are full. Only when this is missing do we really become aware of our inner desolation.

As you say though the answer here is to learn how not to reach out for 'fillers' when we reach this inner emptiness we feel as loneliness.

Rather sit still, battle through the terrible feelings and reach our for God instead instead.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

Loneliness is a very typical "modern" problem, because we are engaged in too much activity, mental and physical. This activity dulls the spiritual senses so that we are not able to sense the presence of God. This activity is largely a fixation in order to be able to avoid looking at the soul, and to avoid spiritual work.


Owen wrote:.. the problem is made much more stark nowadays because we also live in a far more fragmented society than previously. So it is easy for someone to touch this loneliness very easily.


It seems to me that what is being described here is the consequence of individualism at the cost of personhood. Individualism, one of the basic assumptions of western culture, separates the individual from all others and sets him apart as a unique and self contained entity. Interpersonal relationships are brought about as a result of aggregations of individuals connected by some common interest or goal - but the individuality of the person, shutting out all others remains intact.

Personhood otoh, is the basic tenet of the Christian faith. We are all persons, connected to one another, united but not confused, in some similar manner as God is three persons (i.e. the Trinity). In personhood there is a free flow of love from one person in an entity to another and yet the unique persons themselves are not confused or compromised - it is an interdependence. A person is only whole when living in union with the other persons in that entity.

Loneliness comes about when we deny our personhood, or at least lose the sense of it, and focus instead upon our individuality and self sustenance. In order to regain our sense of personhood, we have to sacrifice our individuality and embrace instead our place as a part of a larger entity (in this case the Body of Christ or the Church)



The approach of the Desert Fathers seems to be to not focus on the problem so much as the solution. You don't start out addressing a problem. You are presented with the solution,e.g. watchfulness, stillness, etc.

This, I think, is quite profound for we are forced now to look at the question of the Christian life and our salvation from a very different perspective. Instead of trying to "fix" things in a reactionary manner, we approach our lives in a much more positive light - putting all our effort into fostering within ourselves the virtues and characteristics of the life in Christ (as opposed to identifying "problems" and seeking a solution). The "problem . solution" approach seems to be "reactive" whereas the approach of the fathers expressed by Owen is "proactive".

Fr David Moser

[Paul Cowan]

I think of the writings of the Philokalia as the full development of the interior life, but for the life of me I don't recall a text devoted to the problem of loneliness. Perhaps the equivalent for them would be acedia, which is a kind of depressed feeling. The context here on this thread seems to be a kind of loneliness that leads to this feeling.



From the Life of St. Seraphim who we celebrate today.


By constant work he guarded himself against despondency (accidie), this being, as he later said, "the most dangerous temptation for new monks. It is treated by prayer, by abstaining from idle chatter, by strenuous work, by reading the Word of God and by patience, since it is engendered by pettiness of soul, negligence, and idle talk."

[Andreas Moran]

It seems to me that what is being described here is the consequence of individualism at the cost of personhood . . .

I think Fr David in his post encapsulates the problem. The philosophical, political, economic and social development of the west in recent history has shifted people towards individualism (one thinks of Margaret Thatcher's notorious assertion that there is no such thing as society - there are only individuals). It cannot be a coincidence that this recent history has seen such a decline in the Christian faith in the west. In very recent times, the same developments have infected traditionally Orthodox societies such as those in Greece and Cyprus and are now at work further east. Is it the same individualism which is the basis of that western way of thinking which makes Orthodoxy sometimes difficult for westerners? Further, how are Orthodox communities of persons, which communties are often small and, in a sense, on the margins of society, to withstand the onslaught of the manifestations of individualism: in particular, to practice even a basic level of Orthodox asceticism in a world of frenzied individual consumerism? The nature and mode of being of personhood described by Fr David is a reflection, is it not, of the mode of being of the Holy Trinity? Our task - and how hard it is! - is to try to be a reflection of Trinitarian love.

[Owen Jones]

The problem is not individualism per se. Because the people who believe that there is no such thing as individuals, only societies, are just as wrong, or worse. The problem is just what St. Seraphim says, without having to get into the politics of it. The fact is that we are all, indeed, individuals. And yet we are more than that at the same time.

By the way, there is a context to what Thatcher was saying. She was "reacting" to the ideology that says that persons should all subordinate their liberties to the requirements of the society. She called this the "nanny state:" a very apt description. The Nanny State probably leads to much more loneliness (alienation) than does "individualism."

[Andreas Moran]

By the way, there is a context to what Thatcher was saying. She was "reacting" to the ideology that says that persons should all subordinate their liberties to the requirements of the society. She called this the "nanny state:" a very apt description. The Nanny State probably leads to much more loneliness (alienation) than does "individualism."

This takes me and Owen to our usual area of disagreement! I saw what Thatcher did in my country and I have no hesitation in using the word 'evil' to describe some of the things she did here.