Reacting to evil

[Anthony]

This has some connection with the recent comments on demons in the thread on "anger", but I think it is a topic in its own right.

Last week in Scotland I was taken on a tour of an old stately home, which is being restored by a couple of artists who have bought it. The original owner was a freemason, and it is full of masonic symbolism. It is also built on the site of Celtic and pre-Celtic burial grounds. The last room of the house was an Egyptian tomb, with some kind of Egyptian idol in it, and as soon as I went in I had an overwhelming sense of the presence of something evil. I was told the original owner's body had originally lain there.

So my question is, how would other members, especially our priests, advise one to act in this kind of situation?

[Paul Cowan]

Genesis 39:11 But it happened about this time, when Joseph went into the house to do his work, and none of the men of the house was inside, 12 that she caught him by his garment, saying, “Lie with me.” But he left his garment in her hand, and fled and ran outside. 13 And so it was, when she saw that he had left his garment in her hand and fled outside, 14 that she called to the men of her house and spoke to them, saying, “See, he has brought in to us a Hebrew to mock us. He came in to me to lie with me, and I cried out with a loud voice. 15 And it happened, when he heard that I lifted my voice and cried out, that he left his garment with me, and fled and went outside.”

DO what Joseph did.

Paul

[Elzabet]

And if you live with someone who is under the influence of evil but refuses to see it or reject it? Even lies about it in spite of the fact that their personality is changing for everyone to see? http://http://home.nc.rr.com/redsweater/smilies/sad.gif

[Paul Cowan]

I am passing the buck. See your priest.

Quoting scripture is tentative at best and does NOT fit all situations, but if it is as simple as this, it might offer guidance?


1 Corinthians 7:12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

This does not help in an abusive relationship and I dare say you would be advised to seek protection or out-right base sinful activities. That is why you need an experienced spiritual father to guide you (plural).

I do not think it unreasonable, considering the circumstances, to set boundaries and consequences for others actions that directly affect us. We do not have to allow a dope smoking guest to live in our homes. They either stop or leave. The prinicpals of AA (http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/?Media=PlayFlash) are not just for alcoholics.

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

I too would go straight to a priest, one I trusted and knew to be a holy man, and tell him about what I had experienced or had sensed. We know evil exists and I for one, am in no position to do anything about it except pray and ask for God's help. A holy priest is one who is seeped in prayer and God's grace and he is the one who will decide what to do.

Effie

[Elzabet]

I'm going to speak with Fr tonight at Vespers.

[Mary]

And if you live with someone who is under the influence of evil but refuses to see it or reject it? Even lies about it in spite of the fact that their personality is changing for everyone to see? http://http://home.nc.rr.com/redsweater/smilies/sad.gif

When someone is under the influence of evil, I doubt if they can see it. Only God's grace allows us to see anything in ourselves that's not good. And for some reason, God doesn't force His healing upon us.

But there is evil, and those who are sensitive can sense it. My Dad told me of a time he was on a school trip, when he was a boy. They visited a Hindu temple. He and some of his friends went further into the temple than others. It was a long passage that seeemed to go down, into the ground. They never got to the end of the passage because there was something there, that was powerfully evil, and they could sense it's presence.

Then there was this Ethiopian friend who went to the town where I went to nursing school. It's called the city of thousand temples. Some of the biggest Hindu temples are there. This friend was also there on a class trip - only he was in college, not a little boy. He got a headache as their bus entered the city limits, such an oppressive headache that he couldn't leave the hotel room for the whole week they were there. No medicine relieved his headache. But the instant the bus was out of 'touch', his headache instantly vanished. This friend was baptised orthodox and then joined a protestant church. =(

As for me, I watched too many horror movies, so I get spooked really easily. I don't think I've actually, really sensed any real demonic activity, unless those 'speaking-in-tongues' meetings in India were demonic.

Mary

[Antonios]

Dear Anthony,

I had such an encounter once in a reservation close to my house which I have gone in the past for quiet walks and prayer. This large wooded area for many years was reported to be 'haunted'. There is an old abanded village in the heart of the woods and during the 60's-80's, many occult groups would meet at various places and perform satanic rituals, including animal sacrifices.

About a year ago, one beautiful summer day, I was walking in the woods with my rambunctious terrier, along a rarely walked path.

As we were approaching a clearing where a tree had fallen and crossed the path, I felt a chill down my spine and had a very apprehensive feeling of something evil near to me. (I, of course, am not spiritually gifted to have felt this. In fact, when I turned to see where my dog was, she was about 20 yards behind me, frozen in fear. It was a look I had never seen in my dog, who is usually a firecracker. So this feeling of evil was sensed by her as well). I tried to coax her to catch up, and she would not obey. I had to actually go back and put her on the leash.

As we started off again along the path, in what seemed like erie silence, another chill went down my spine and the sense of overwhelming fear was palpable. I looked to the right, about 20 yards from me, and noticed some black figures behing a bush, which appeared to be waving. I could not discern anything more in terms of details. The closest discription I can offer is that they looked like shadows, but a crowd of them. I thought at first that this was a group of people doing yoga excercies or tai chi. When I came to the realization that there was complete silence and that the figures were entirely in black, my mind immediatly thought of a coven of witches or satanist performing some ritual. I stopped in my tracks and waited to see what would happen, and as fast as I saw them, they disappeared behind the bush, without the tiniest rustle of leaves or noise. My dog at this time was visibly trembling (as was I).

When I finally came to the conclusion that these were not anything physical, but in my opinion, demons, I crossed myself, prayed to the Lord for courage, walked off the path and behind the bush, and said with a stern and forceful voice, "The Lord rebuke you, satan. The Lord rebuke you. In the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit". I crossed myself, crossed the bush in front of me, picked up my dog, and never went back there again.

I guess the best advice I, a layman and sinner, can give you from this particular example is when the sense of evil surrounds you, pray to the Lord to rebuke the demons, cross yourself in the Name of the Holy Trinity, and turn and leave and never go back.

In Christ,
Antonios

[Nina]

Thank you all and you Antonios for this advice (although I am kind of so scared right now after reading the story with the shadows - that is so scary what you experienced!).

I like this advise and what Paul said also about Patriarch Joseph very much and it is only wise to follow this.

I did never feel chills such as you describe. I had some kind of not settling feeling in my heart when I moved to the place I am now (which of course I can not avoid). People said all kinds of things about these apartments and building, therefore the first action I took was burning incense in my apartment and the common hallway of my floor. After letting the incense for sometime I would open all the windows and burn some more incense. So there was incense spreading outside in the air around also. Also the first thing to place in the apartment was the icon of Panagia holding Christ.

I could not have the priest come at that moment to bless the dwelling and I still was thinking about it with unsettling thoughts, but there was nothing that happened to worry me, and I did not have feelings of evil around like you describe - thank God, because I would have gotten really scared!

So one of those nights I dreamed that Panagia entered the building with a censer like the one the priest uses, and was censing the entire lobby and whispering prayers. I do not remember anything else, just that I was so delighted looking at her. This is all I remember and I felt so peaceful and so happy afterwards!

I think God does not abandon us and we have just to run to Him like His children for help through the means He gave us. We just have to arm ourselves as you all have said with prayers, shield ourselves with our Holy Cross, burn holy incense and candle/lamp (if we have to return there again), have the priest bless the place, sprinkle Holy Water etc.

I like the prayer that Antonios said. Another very wonderful prayer which has the beauty of Pascha with it and is so helpful in many cases is: "Let God arise and all His enemies be scattered and those who hate His Holy Name may flee from His Face...".

Also calling the name of Panagia and her help. Because I was taught that two things burn the demons more than anything else, the sign of the Holy Cross, and the name of the Virgin Mary - They say: "Mary you burn us!" and flee and they on purpose call her just with her name and can not Virgin Mary, or Panagia, or Theotokos, because they can not stand her holiness and what she did for us giving birth to our Lord.

[Elzabet]

Thank you all for your experiences. Now I know I'm not crazy for having those feelings.

I did speak with Fr today after Vespers and I felt so much better afterward. I forgot to ask him to come bless my house but otherwise I feel better about the situation. Not hopeless anymore.

[Mary]

Antonios,

I wish I hadn't read about your encounter! That was just way too scary! I would've died. My own nightmares scare me! Two nights ago I dreamed about a doll that started to move, I woke up in a cold sweat and made the sign of the cross over myself, my head, my eyes, my ears, my bed and kept going till I fell asleep. I could only manage the words: "Lord have mercy."

We pray the "Let God arise...." prayer from Pascha every night, as part of our night prayers. That night that I had my nightmare, we didn't pray together, and I didn't do my own prayers either.

When my kids speak of scary things, I take them seriously, and we pray. We make the sign of the cross over the closet door becasue we know, if there's anything in there, it won't dare come out.

I'm thankful we can pray, and I"m so thankful we have the cross, but it does nothing to take away the chills in my spine!

Mary

[Paul Cowan]

Can house blessings be done any time of year or only before Great Lent?

[Nina]

Mary,

Are you planning to let me without sleep tonight so I can go at 6AM at church in the morning?

Paul,

An Antiochian Orthodox priest expressed his wish to come next week and bless my apartment. So I guess it is fine anytime of the year.

In my tradition we have the priest bless the house, bless car (s), and business if it is private, anytime of the year we wish, but especially around the Feast of Epiphany.

[Father David Moser]

Can house blessings be done any time of year or only before Great Lent?

Any blessing can be done at any time. House blessings are traditionally done annually with Theophany water in the week following the feast (and in many parishes that week can extend into many weeks, even months). It is not a problem, however to have a house blessed at any time. There are special prayers for blessing a new house (or new to you) that involve anointing the 4 walls with blessed oil (not chrism) and then blessing the house with holy water and that should be done when you first move into a new residence.

As for the demon thing that has been a part of this discussion, I would suggest that you ask the priest come and serve a molieben to Sts Kyprian and Justina or perhaps St Anthony the Great and bless the house with holy water in the course of the molieben.

Fr David Moser

[Andreas Moran]

A powerful prayer against evil is, 'Let God arise and let His enemies be scattered . . . ' since the power of the Cross is so great. There are times when a priest should bless a house but Bishop Eirenaios told me that I could go round and sprinkle holy water and say prayers of blessing myself if I felt it was necessary (part, perhaps, of our Royal Priesthood).

[Anthony]

Thank you for these replies.

Actually that is pretty much what I did. I made the sign of the cross and said below my breath the prayer "Let God arise", and a prayer to my patron St Antony, which in the context seemed particularly appropriate.

I also thought of following Joseph's example, though preferably keeping my clothes on.

I don't want to over-dramatize the experience, or to suggest that I am particularly sensitive to, or interested in, these things. The guide actually said (subsequently) that many visitors experienced what I experienced. But certainly these things are real, and can be encountered when one is not expecting them (though the rest of the tour should have given me a clue).

[Effie Ganatsios]

I doubt whether my own experience has anything to do with demons, but I know that it is quite a common experience.

We rented 4 houses before building our house and I can say positively that some houses have "atmospheres". In one flat, quite new, although it had been rented a few times before I moved there, there was a definite negative atmosphere. I was working then, and every afternoon as soon as I entered the front door I felt a heavy pressure on my chest. After a couple of months of living there I was always afraid, afraid of nothing specific but just afraid of everything. In 6 months I developed hives and Quincke's disease which is an allergic reaction to something and makes your lips and eyelids swell, but it is also very dangerous because it also causes your throat lining to swell and if you don't get to the hospital in time, you suffocate - rare but possible. I had to carry an injection of cortisone in my bag at all times. The doctors gave me lots of tests to find out what I was allergic to but it was hopeless. I became well as soon as we moved to another house.

This second house belonged to my husband's auntie, who wanted to rent it to people she knew, for a few years, while she moved to Thessaloniki where her two sons were attending university. She had never rented it before and had always lived there. It was old but in good condition. I felt at peace the instance I moved there and I hated leaving when the family finally returned. This auntie was a very sweet woman and also quite religious in a steady and quiet fashion.

Now, how can I explain the above? I can't. I have read various theories but they are just that, theories, and cannot be proven.

The other two houses I rented had no atmosphere at all. They were just houses.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

I just wanted to add that I can't remember whether a priest ever blessed the first terrible house. I don't remember such a thing, which I believe I would if he had.

I do know that a priest came regularly once a month to the second house, as he had been accustomed to when the owner lived there.

Off topic : why don't priests come to our houses once a month as they used to??

Effie

[Paul Cowan]

Off topic : why don't priests come to our houses once a month as they used to??


Lack of priests? Not practical? We have over 120 families in my parish. That is essentially 4 houses per day including Sundays and Holy Days. We are also spread out over the entire city.

[John King]

Anthony,

Try not to worry too much about what happened in Scotland, many of us will have had similar experiences.

In my own case many, many years ago I was walking through a deserted town centre in the early hours, when I became aware that there was someone behind me. When I looked over my shoulder there was nobody there. A moment later I knew there was someone right behind me, and I think I felt their breath on my neck. I jumped around, but saw no one. I don't scare easily (some ex military background) but I felt petrified. I immediately crossed myself, and called on my Guardian Angel, and suddenly the air temperature went up by ten degrees, and I felt safe.

A couple of days later there was an item in my local newspaper about the police finding black candles and an upside down crucifix in a redundant church - and I had been walking past it that night.

These things have alway been around since Lucifer was thrown out of Heaven. Many of them are stupid (elementals) and will hang around certain places or buildings where people have been doing evil things, and will 'check you out' if you are in that area, in the same way that a wild animal might come up and sniff you.

But remember that your Guardian Angel will ALWAYS protect you no matter what. He was chosen for you by God at the moment of conception, to protect you from harm, and will be with you throughout your life.

[Anthony]

Thank you, John, for this story and for your sensible words. These things unfortunately exist - and it is good to pool ideas about how to respond to them.

[Michael Stickles]

We rented 4 houses before building our house and I can say positively that some houses have "atmospheres".

Not just houses. Any kind of building can, neighborhoods can, and so can natural areas without any kind of roads or buildings. The priest at our parish described feeling an overpowering sense of evil when walking in Times Square (years ago, back before it got cleaned up); it was so bad he and his companion ducked into David Wilkerson's church there, just to get some relief from it. For myself, I distinctly remember the experience of being out late one night in a totally undeveloped, semi-wilderness area called "Hell" by locals (I won't go into details, for the sake of those who are nightmare-inclined).

The "feel" of an atmosphere isn't just limited to "good" or "evil". A small nature park near my home has a distinctly "melancholy" feel to it (I thought I was imagining it until my wife said she felt the same thing). A hunting camp near my house (where I tried to do a personal prayer retreat once during the off-season), has an atmosphere which, while not "bad", is definitely not "calm", and makes settling into quiet prayer very difficult. Would probably work fine for an active men's group outing, though.

The latter type wouldn't require "doing" anything, unless you really wanted to change the atmospheres (for example, if you wanted to turn the hunting camp into a retreat house). As for the former -- in addition to blessing by a priest, long-term prayer can change the atmosphere of a place. I saw that happen personally, in the botanical gardens at my college, when a friend "adopted" a pavillion within an area of mildly evil atmosphere as her "prayer spot"; after a year or so it became a small island of peace in the midst of a lake of mild darkness. I'd definitely suggest consulting with one's spiritual father before trying that method on one's own, though, especially if the evil ranks above "mild" in strength.

In Christ,
Mike

[Nina]

in a totally undeveloped, semi-wilderness area called "Hell" by locals (I won't go into details, for the sake of those who are nightmare-inclined).

:) Do you have in mind the town called "Hell" which got much publicity during the 6 of June last year?


As for the former -- in addition to blessing by a priest, long-term prayer can change the atmosphere of a place.

In Christ,
MikeI agree Mike, and to what you say with the blessing of one's spiritual father. Also we can play chanting, services wherever we can. My favorite is when in an airplane playing some Orthodox hymns, etc. even if it is in our personal devices - like it is said 'God will be glorified in all the corners of the world'. Also in parks and other areas where we drive etc. that maybe have never heard blessed sounds and words. And we can join the chanting, prayers (if we can) so it is not only us praying. And Mike you are right that like others may spread evil intentionally, or not, we need to bring good and glorify God (even if we do not sense evil where we are). And I believe that God does not neglect even the most meager effort.

Another thing which Father David Mosser said (and I forgot in which thread is, therefore please excuse my paraphrasing,) is that since we as Orthodox have grace through the Holy Sacraments, and through our communion with God, we bring this grace wherever we are and disperse it.

[Michael Stickles]

:) Do you have in mind the town called "Hell" which got much publicity during the 6 of June last year?

Nope. This was an unoccupied area of sand, scrub pine, trees and not much else. The nearest habitations I know of are the primitive shelters of interns at the survival school that runs nearby (they're the "locals"), I think about two miles away. Granted, there were sounds of a loud, rowdy party coming from some distance deeper into the woods (near the center of "Hell", I think), but there certainly wasn't a town there, and given the location, the time, and the fact that the temperature was below freezing, I kinda have my suspicions regarding what was "really" there.

[Paul Cowan]

Granted, there were sounds of a loud, rowdy party coming from some distance deeper into the woods (near the center of "Hell", I think), but there certainly wasn't a town there, and given the location, the time, and the fact that the temperature was below freezing, I kinda have my suspicions regarding what was "really" there.

Mike,
Are you saying Hell finally froze over? LOL

As long as we are telling stories, a few years ago I was driving back into Houston after being gone for a few days. As I crossed over a certain landmark signifying I was entering the outskirts of Houston, I felt I entered a cloud of evil. I later talked to a friend of mine as she also was driving back yet on a different freeway and a different side of town she also felt this cloud of evil as she "penetrated" the outskirts boundaries of the city.

Yet within every hurricane there is a calm eye. The Church.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear all,

I'm very far from being convinced that following "feelings" about a place or sensing evil in a place is good thing to pay much attention to unless it is along the lines of what is read in Holy Writ, "What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground." That would be a call for repentance, and to go to the Orthodox Church for confession I think. From what I understand even if a person felt a place to be evil because of what others have said or having thoughts that suggest such things might be very unhealthy. Terrible evil things have happened throughout the history of mankind all over the world. While one might be aware of what happened in a place like a place that many innocents had been slain at (crieth unto me from the ground) by the Herod's, Hitler's of history, clearly it is fallen man that can have misleading "feelings" that actually end up effecting people wrongly to different degrees. Even the heretics with divided houses serving the wrong thoughts of men and the devil have such feelings about places. So what are we to do?

Our friend, Anthony has given to us the words of St Athanasius in his letter to Marcellinus commenting on the Psalms.

"So then, my son, let whoever reads this Book of Psalms take the things in it quite simply as God-inspired; and let each select from it, as from the fruits of a garden, those things of which he sees himself in need. For I think that in the words of this book all human life is covered, with all its states and thoughts, and that nothing further can be found in man. For no matter what you seek, whether it be repentance and confession, or help in trouble and temptation or under persecution, whether you have been set free from plots and snares or, on the contrary, are sad for any reason, or whether, seeing yourself progressing and your enemy cast down, you want to praise and thank and bless the Lord, each of these things the Divine Psalms show you how to do, and in every case the words you want are written down for you, and you can say them as your own."

The Psalm that starts with the Lord is my shepherd came to my mind here when reading this thread, and I wanted to share some thoughts. In the Church when we are Chrismated, we receive the gift of the seal of the Holy Spirit, the helper, the comforter whom the Father sends in Christ's name. We knock and it is opened to us that is the Church, God hears the catechumens as they embrace the Church and the Church embraces them so they have nothing to fear since they even should know that all things are subject to Gods will and His Church. We read of the Orthodox Church and the goodness of God in the Psalms, Pentecost or the "Green Feast" is constant in the Church. We know that Pentecost is not simply an event that happened long ago, the Orthodox Church is full of grace even under the most severe of persecutions. We pray at Vigil and the Priest anoints us with oil, and God prepares a table before us even in presence of our enemies, the evil spirits of the air and even the heretics with all their cunning heresies that lead souls astray. The Church loves as Christ loves and each year at Theophany the Church gracefully sends to each of our homes Priests to bless them, our cups overflow. If God is with us who can be against us. We should not doubt, that's when men sink, even then as we have seen in Holy Writ Christ and His Church is always triumphant as long as we look towards Him in the right way. God forgive us, even if we don't get that right, we trust in the Orthodox Church though for those that are of the rational flock have seen that the Orthodox Church is very holy. We do not place our hands into Christ's wounds like Saint Thomas, but rather thrones are set in place in the Church. We can see this as the hands of our Priests hold the lamb that takes away the sins of the world. So it is good to feel free to kiss your Priest's hand that blesses us. They are very highly blessed to take from the tree of life and give to us so that we may have life eternal. It is Christ that restores our souls when we dwell in the house of the Lord. Those other places or valleys will not last forever. So whether one walks by the valleys of the shadows of death, the meeting places for the heretic sects, or satanic cults we stay under the omophorian of our Orthodox bishops where there is grace as they rightly divide the word of Gods' truth. In such ways we are comforted, for we have found the true faith. In short we know that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, so being nourished therein, surely goodness and mercy will follow us all the days of our lives.

It seems to me that the below Psalm points to the Orthodox Church in many ways. Even when we fall short and end up walking through the valley of the shadow of death "thy rod" penance "he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness" is met with absolution in the Church, thanks be to God.

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

[Nina]

Dear all,

I'm very far from being convinced that following "feelings" about a place or sensing evil in a place is good thing to pay much attention to

You are very right dear Matthew, as Elder Paisios says we should have positive thoughts.

[Father David Moser]

Yet within every hurricane there is a calm eye. The Church.

The relics of St John of Shanghai and SF rest in the cathedral in San Francisco. the locals "joke" about the fact that it is because of the presence of the relics and the prayers of St John that San Francisco hasn't fallen into the sea yet (given the prevalence of immorality and outright evil lifestyles there that is a thought). In fact the protection of St John has been borne out in experience. There have been occasions where mild, but significant tremors were felt in the surrounding area and verified by the geological monitoring - but those who were in the cathedral never felt a thing. Children coming into school in the morning told of feeling the tremors earlier, but the staff and faculty who were there at the cathedral at the time felt nothing. I am convinced that if "the big one" ever comes and California falls into the sea that Holy Virgin Cathedral will end up as an island. Wondrous is God in His saints

Fr David Moser