8th and 9th 'ecumenical' councils?

[Stuart Dunn]

I was doing some reading of the different Ecumenical Councils and I was wondering if there was more information on the 8th and 9th Ecumenical Councils. I believe they are the 4th and 5th of Constantinople. The 4th is not to be confused with the Catholic 4th of Constantinople.

[Herman Blaydoe]

There is a good overall discussion of the various councils considered Ecumenical by the Orthodox Church at Orthodox Wiki (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ecumenical_Councils#Seven_or_Nine_Ecumenical_Counc ils.3F)

[Stuart Dunn]

I guess I was just looking for the specific texts of them, like is available with the first 7. Alas, it's probably buried somewhere in the archives of the world wide web.

[Nicolaj]

Thank you Herman for this Link! Very interesting!

Christos Voskrese! Nicolaj

[Michael Stickles]

The website of T.R. Valentine has a page on the Eighth Council (http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/dragas_eighth.html) (specifically in regard to the filioque), which mentions a work called the Tomos Charas (Τόμος Χαρᾶς) of Patriarch Dositheos, published in 1705, which has the proceedings of the Eighth Council and possibly others. Unfortunately, I could not find an online text anywhere.

The only text of an Eighth Council I found online was actually for the 869-870 council at Constantinople (considered by Roman Catholics the true 8th council, but called the "Robber Council" by some Orthodox, I think primarily because it deposed the Ecumenical Patriarch, St. Photius the Great) instead of the 879-880 council at Constantinople which is accepted by Orthodox (and which reversed the rulings of the earlier council).

The website linked above includes a brief outline of some reasons why the council is sometimes called the "Eighth Council" yet is not really enumerated in the same way as the Seven.

In Christ,
Mike

[Anthony]

It is interesting that this "8th Council" (I am more used to calling it the Photian Council of 880, following Timothy Ware) was recognized by the Papacy. If I have got my facts right, this decision was overturned as part of the 11th century Hildebrandine Reformation, and then suppressed until the story was brought to light by the RC scholar Francis Dvornik. I think of this council as a kind of litmus test of how serious the RC is about returning to the faith of the undivided church.

[Michael Astley]

It is interesting that this "8th Council" (I am more used to calling it the Photian Council of 880, following Timothy Ware) was recognized by the Papacy. If I have got my facts right, this decision was overturned as part of the 11th century Hildebrandine Reformation, and then suppressed until the story was brought to light by the RC scholar Francis Dvornik. I think of this council as a kind of litmus test of how serious the RC is about returning to the faith of the undivided church.

I don't know whether you've got your facts right, Anthony, but they certainly corroborate my own understanding. The Roman Patriarchate accepted the 8th Council which condemned the heresy of the double-procession of the Holy Spirit and its accompanying filioque addition to the Symbol of Faith, only to later retract this acceptance.

A little may be found here (http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/dragas_eighth.html). Particularly noteworthy are:


Jointly sanctifying and preserving intact the venerable and divine teaching of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, which has been established in the bosom of our mind, with unhesitating resolve and purity of faith, as well as the sacred ordinances and canonical stipulations of his holy disciples and Apostles with an unwavering judgement, and indeed, those Seven holy and ecumenical Synods which were directed by the inspiration of the one and the same Holy Spirit and effected the [Christian] preaching, and jointly guarding with a most honest and unshakeable resolve the canonical institutions invulnerable and unfalsified, we expel those who removed themselves from the Church, and embrace and regard worthy of receiving those of the same faith or teachers of orthodoxy to whom honour and sacred respect is due as they themselves ordered. Thus, having in mind and declaring all these things, we embrace with mind and tongue (τῇ διανοίᾳ καὶ γλώσσῃ) and declare to all people with a loud voice the Horos (Rule) of the most pure faith of the Christians which has come down to us from above through the Fathers, subtracting nothing, adding nothing, falsifying nothing; for subtraction and addition, when no heresy is stirred up by the ingenious fabrications of the evil one, introduces disapprobation of those who are exempt from blame and inexcusable assault on the Fathers. As for the act of changing with falsified words the Horoi (Rules, Boundaries) of the Fathers is much worse that the previous one. Therefore, this holy and ecumenical Synod embracing whole-heartedly and declaring with divine desire and straightness of mind, and establishing and erecting on it the firm edifice of salvation, thus we think and loudly proclaim this message to all:

"I believe in One God, Father Almighty, ... and in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God... and in the Holy Spirit, the Lord ... who proceeds from the Father... [the whole Creed is cited here]

Thus we think, in this confession of faith we were we baptised, through this one the word of truth proved that every heresy is broken to pieces and canceled out. We enroll as brothers and fathers and coheirs of the heavenly city those who think thus. If anyone, however, dares to rewrite and call Rule of Faith some other exposition besides that of the sacred Symbol which has been spread abroad from above by our blessed and holy Fathers even as far as ourselves, and to snatch the authority of the confession of those divine men and impose on it his own invented phrases (ἰδίαις εὑρεσιολογίαις) and put this forth as a common lesson to the faithful or to those who return from some kind of heresy, and display the audacity to falsify completely (κατακιβδηλεῦσαι ἀποθρασυνθείη) the antiquity of this sacred and venerable Horos (Rule) with illegitimate words, or additions, or subtractions, such a person should, according to the vote of the holy and Ecumenical Synods, which has been already acclaimed before us, be subjected to complete defrocking if he happens to be one of the clergymen, or be sent away with an anathema if he happens to be one of the lay people."

...and...


Thus we think, thus we believe, into this confession were we baptized and became worthy to enter the priestly orders. We regard, therefore, as enemies of God and of the truth those who think differently as compared to this. If one dares to rewrite another Symbol besides this one, or add to it, or subtract from it, or to remove anything from it, and to display the audacity to call it a Rule, he will be condemned and thrown out of the Christian Confession. For to subtract from, or to add to, the holy and consubstantial and undivided Trinity shows that the confession we have always had to this day is imperfect. It condemns the Apostolic Tradition and the doctrine of the Fathers. If one, then having come to such a point of mindlessness as to dare do what we have said above, and set forth another Symbol and call it a Rule, or to add to or subtract from the one which has been handed down to us by the first great, holy and Ecumenical Synod of Nicaea, let him be Anathema!