The Church, Greek festivals, and alcohol

[Linda]

My Protestant husband is still upset with my desire to be welcomed into the Orthodox Church.

One of the things that bothers him so is the offering of alcohol at Greek festivals.

Do Greek festivals have anything to do with the Church?

I know the Church is against drunkeness, but why do they offer alcohol for entertainment purposes at social events?

Is getting a "buzz" ok as long as you're not soused?

I have no answers to offer my husband. All insights greatly appreciated. Thank you!

[Antonios]

My Protestant husband is still upset with my desire to be welcomed into the Orthodox Church.

One of the things that bothers him so is the offering of alcohol at Greek festivals.

Do Greek festivals have anything to do with the Church?

Dear Linda,

For many churches, the money raised by the festivals are an important means in paying the bills. For some churches, it is the single most important yearly contribution which keeps the doors open and the electricity running.
The festivals also are a way of celebrating the Hellenic culture, which the Greeks cherise and take great pride in (for greater or worse).

Theologically or dogmatically speaking, the festivals plays absolutely no role. They have been known, however, to have led people to the Church. Many heterodox have had their first experience visiting the inside of the church during these festivals which eventually led to them become catecumens.




I know the Church is against drunkeness, but why do they offer alcohol for entertainment purposes at social events?

The festivals of the Church do not encourage drunkeness. Alcohol for entertainment purposes are not against any Church canons as far as I am aware, though I hope someone corrects me if I am wrong.


Is getting a "buzz" ok as long as you're not soused?

If your getting buzzed entails a disregard for the love of God or your neighbor, then it is drunkeness and is a sin. Everything in moderation. Of course, every individual person is different, and the appropriate context applies. Thus, offering a sip of beer to a recovering alcoholic would be inappropriate.


I have no answers to offer my husband. All insights greatly appreciated. Thank you!


I hope you and your husband find peace. Perhaps you should have him speak with a local Orthodox priest who might be able to answer his questions? Or maybe one of our fathers here in monachos can?

[Father Serafim]

We as Orthodox (with exceptions of course) know how to enjoy alcohol, in particular wine -a gift from God. I remember people in New Zealand getting drunk due to restrictive licensing hours, which have now been lifted. In countries like France where most people enjoy wine, binging is not a problem.

[Paul Cowan]

My Protestant husband is still upset with my desire to be welcomed into the Orthodox Church.

Until he is ok with this, everything you do will cause discomfort between you. This is just one stone of many.


One of the things that bothers him so is the offering of alcohol at Greek festivals.

I am beginning to feel my whole post is going to be negative against PC's. It really is not my intent but only to show why the arguments can not stand up to scrutiny. Do you not also go to restaurants that serve alcohol? Weddings? Company socials? Christmas parties with eggnog? High School reunions? football or baseball game?

Patience is the only weapon you have. And of course a good "walk" in the faith. If the Festival is a cause of discourse, don't attend. You don't even have to drink if you do go. Change scares everyone. Especially a fundamental life change such as Orthodoxy. It might even rank on the stress meter with moving to another city and getting a new job. (at the same time).

Don't be like me and get over zealous as a convert. It's called "convertitis". My family was more patient with me than I was with them. They still don't understand Orthodoxy nor do they want to. But they allow me to live my Faith. I hope one day I can say to them, "come and see".

There are many threads on Monachos referring to this very topic. You can use the search option to look them up. I am sure he will if not already will have trouble with icons, The Theotokos, veneration, and a whole slew of new words to deal with that probably "sound" Roman Catholic like Annunciation, Dormition, Pascha, Fast, Priest, Father and the like.

Be patient with him. Many a good woman has turned her husband to the Faith by having a good witness. Look at all the early Church martyrs. Oh yeah, you are one of those too. Good luck with the Festival. I am sure many of the converts here will welcome a PM from you for advice.

In Christ,
Paul

[Linda]

Wonderful info all. Thank you!


Until he is ok with this, everything you do will cause discomfort between you. This is just one stone of many.

I am beginning to feel my whole post is going to be negative against PC's. It really is not my intent but only to show why the arguments can not stand up to scrutiny. Do you not also go to restaurants that serve alcohol? Weddings? Company socials? Christmas parties with eggnog? High School reunions? football or baseball game?

:-) Actually he does not. He feels just as strongly about it no matter the source. However, I know you are right about that being "just one stone of many."


Patience is the only weapon you have. And of course a good "walk" in the faith. If the Festival is a cause of discourse, don't attend. You don't even have to drink if you do go. Change scares everyone. Especially a fundamental life change such as Orthodoxy. It might even rank on the stress meter with moving to another city and getting a new job. (at the same time).

Don't be like me and get over zealous as a convert. It's called "convertitis". My family was more patient with me than I was with them. They still don't understand Orthodoxy nor do they want to. But they allow me to live my Faith. I hope one day I can say to them, "come and see".

There are many threads on Monachos referring to this very topic. You can use the search option to look them up. I am sure he will if not already will have trouble with icons, The Theotokos, veneration, and a whole slew of new words to deal with that probably "sound" Roman Catholic like Annunciation, Dormition, Pascha, Fast, Priest, Father and the like.

Be patient with him. Many a good woman has turned her husband to the Faith by having a good witness. Look at all the early Church martyrs. Oh yeah, you are one of those too. Good luck with the Festival. I am sure many of the converts here will welcome a PM from you for advice.

In Christ,
Paul

Thank you so much for this advice and encouragement.

I don't think I have "convertitis" when talking with him, although I did want to go to church every time the doors are open, but he let me know once a week is all he can take of me going, to which I respectfully and gratefully agreed.

I never bring up anything about this issue. When he asks questions, I answer as best I can (with a silent prayer). I treat it respectfully because I do not want to cause him any undue stress. We truly love each other.

Thank you all so much again.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I know that many Protestant churches in America have Puritan ideas. No drinking, no smoking. But, our beginnings are different. Everything in moderation. No smoking, why? Because it has proven to be unhealthy.
No drinking? Christ turned water into wine. Doesn't this tell us something?

Children are given communion wine almost from their birth.

There is a difference between drinking wine in moderation - which scientists are now telling us is good for us, something we have known since man first discovered how to make wine from grapes - and becoming addicted to alchohol. We have discussed this in another thread recently.

Effie

[Andreas Moran]

There are cultural factors here, aren't there, rather as we mentioned in the thread on Russian Orthodoxy? In Mediterranean countries such as Greece Cyprus, and Italy, drinking wine - with food - is a normal part of life and draws no comment. Traditionally in such countries, getting drunk is shameful and uncommon. In northern Europe (Britain, Scandinavia, Russia), it's another matter: drinking a lot - for the sake of it - is very common. Regarding drink as the devil in solution seems to be an Anglo-American phenomenon, the Protestant reaction to excessive drinking. As has been said, all things in moderation. The teetotal Protestant needs to understand the characteristics of other cultures. Wine, after all, is regularly served at meals in the refectories of monasteries I've visited in Greece and Cyprus. In Russia, I have only known wine be served to guests who eat separately with those who invited them.

[Effie Ganatsios]

There are cultural factors here, aren't there, rather as we mentioned in the thread on Russian Orthodoxy? In Mediterranean countries such as Greece Cyprus, and Italy, drinking wine - with food - is a normal part of life and draws no comment. Traditionally in such countries, getting drunk is shameful and uncommon. In northern Europe (Britain, Scandinavia, Russia), it's another matter: drinking a lot - for the sake of it - is very common. Regarding drink as the devil in solution seems to be an Anglo-American phenomenon, the Protestant reaction to excessive drinking. As has been said, all things in moderation. The teetotal Protestant needs to understand the characteristics of other cultures. Wine, after all, is regularly served at meals in the refectories of monasteries I've visited in Greece and Cyprus. In Russia, I have only known wine be served to guests who eat separately with those who invited them.

Andreas, some monasteries, both Orthodox and Catholic, are quite famous for their wines.

Our grape harvest this year was disappointing. Because of the weather we didn't have many grapes so we had to buy some in order to have enough must to fill the wine barrels. The must was quite strong though, so the wine, God willing, will be OK. You never know with wine, do you?

[Andreas Moran]

Indeed! The wines of Kykkos Monastery in Cyprus are excellent!

[Olga]

Advice from Apostle Paul:

No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities. (1 Tim. 5:23)

[Linda]

Thank you all again.

I found another scriptural reference:


1 Corinthians 11:20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

Since drunkeness is a possible result, it is evident that wine is being used.

Also, St. Paul does not say, "use grape juice instead," he commands that each show his own self-control.

Thank you!

[Kyrill Bolton]

My Protestant wife more than 15 years after my conversion still (albeit, much less now) picks upon certain things Orthodox.

Generally, if I want to keep a fast I have to plan for it, cook for it, etc. She questions why I find the daily services so mesmerizing. And that the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ, yeah well really now. (She also will have doubts about my doing certain things like dieting - again. But I am not deterred from starting another one.)

But she accepts me and I accept Orthodoxy and I wake up thinking that today will be the day that she converts (thought I have long since stopped overtly trying to convert her.)

[Effie Ganatsios]

My Protestant wife more than 15 years after my conversion still (albeit, much less now) picks upon certain things Orthodox.

Generally, if I want to keep a fast I have to plan for it, cook for it, etc. She questions why I find the daily services so mesmerizing. And that the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ, yeah well really now. (She also will have doubts about my doing certain things like dieting - again. But I am not deterred from starting another one.)

But she accepts me and I accept Orthodoxy and I wake up thinking that today will be the day that she converts (thought I have long since stopped overtly trying to convert her.)

If it is to happen, it will happen Kyrill. Is she also very religious? I know it's easier for all concerned when the husband and wife are the same religion, but where there is love, all things are manageable.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Re : Divine intoxication

This morning I was reading a chapter from “Wounded by Love – Elder Porphyrios” and I thought part of what I read might prove to be interesting to the other posters on this thread.

“Christ himself is joy. He is a joy that transforms you into a different person. It is a spiritual madness, but in Christ. This spiritual wine inebriates you like pure unadulterated wine. As David says : You have anointed my head with oil and your cup intoxicates me most mightily.

Spiritual wine is unmixed, unadulterated, exceedingly strong, and when you drink it, it makes you drunk. This divine intoxication is a gift of God that is given to the pure in heart.”

A little further down in the chapter, he writes : “The point is not to observe all the outward forms. The essence of the matter is for us to be with Christ; for our soul to wake up and love Christ and become holy. To abandon herself to divine eros.”

Each time I open this book I find such wonderful things to meditate on.

Nina has already recommended this wonderful book. I do too.

Effie

[Demetrios Galanidis]

The Lord changed the water into wine, correct?

[Andreas Moran]

And very good wine it was, too, said the guests.

[Michael Stickles]

I've heard various anti-alcohol Christians try to argue that when Jesus changed the water into wine, it wasn't really wine but a non-fermented grape juice. Amazing the mental contortions one can go through to dispose of inconvenient Scriptural evidence.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I've heard various anti-alcohol Christians try to argue that when Jesus changed the water into wine, it wasn't really wine but a non-fermented grape juice. Amazing the mental contortions one can go through to dispose of inconvenient Scriptural evidence.

Mike, I think we all do a lot of picking and choosing when trying to prove a point. By we, I mean all Christian denominations. Do you agree?

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Time for a good laugh and also some truth :

"Sick humor?

To end this chapter on a humorous note, here are Nathan Pritikin's comments on a few All-American favorites which lead us down the road to ruin.

The McDonald's Hamburger: "It's made by an extremely busy organization bent on destroying our population by teaching McDonald's lifestyle of eating French fries and hamburgers always."

Coca Cola: "If the Russians had to formulate a drink to wipe out the entire American public, they'd have invented Coke. Take the caffeine alone; you don't give a three-year-old coffee, but you give him a Coke. What nonsense."

Ice Cream: "A chemical feast. It's a case of completely destroying an already dangerous milk product."

Pizza: "I can't imagine the Italians could have invented this suicide dish because they are such nice people."

Breakfast Cereal: "As someone has said, there's more food value in most breakfast food packets than in the contents."

Mom's Apple Pie: "This is an ingenious way of destroying the good qualities of apples by loading them with sugar, fat and shortening."

Steak: "Think about this; an excellent fillet has 88% of its calories in fat, only 12% protein. Yet we consider it to be a high protein meal."

Frankfurters: "How can the US Government permit this carcinogenic material to be sold to the public?""

The above is from : http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020121horne/020121toc.html

Now, the benefits of a glass of red wine at the dinner table :

"What are the health benefits of drinking red wine?
For over 10 years, research has indicated that moderate intake of alcohol improves cardiovascular health. In fact, in 1992 Harvard researchers included moderate alcohol consumption as one of the "eight proven ways to reduce coronary heart disease risk." However, research has suggested that specifically red wine is the most beneficial to your heart health. The cardioprotective effect has been attributed to antioxidants present in the skin and seeds of red grapes."

Researchers have now found that red wine also protects you from certain cancers and the people at the University of Georgia have perfected a method of adding red wine to peanut butter (????) so that children might also benefit from this gift from God.

I just wanted to say something about grape juice, which people who don't drink alcohol recommend.

When the grapes are pressed twice, must is extracted and poured through sieves into the wine barrels (I missed a couple of stages of the wine-making process but that's OK). I always draw off 2 large bottles of must and place them in the deep freezer before the fermenting process starts. I can use it later on to make some local sweets (that's if I can persuade my husband to give up some of his precious must!!).

Some people here love drinking must - wrong, EVERYONE loves drinking must. I can testify to the fact that this "fresh pressed grape juice" is a lot more intoxicating than wine. It goes straight to your head.

[Angie]

Dear Effie,

Seeing your such a wine expert :), I was wondering how many glasses would you be allowed to have for health reasons?

It's just that I read it can bring breast cancer in women.

Thanks
Angela+++

[Nina]

When the grapes are pressed twice, must is extracted and poured through sieves into the wine barrels (I missed a couple of stages of the wine-making process but that's OK). I always draw off 2 large bottles of must and place them in the deep freezer before the fermenting process starts.

Must in freezer? You should really place some grapes in the freezer and make some ice wine, dear Effie. It is becoming popular here lately (although they have been making it in Canada). It is great and it originates from Germany.



Some people here love drinking must - wrong, EVERYONE loves drinking must. I can testify to the fact that this "fresh pressed grape juice" is a lot more intoxicating than wine. It goes straight to your head.

Giggles... This is so true! My mom made me some fresh squeezed grape juice when I was studying for my high school (senior year) exams, and it was very intoxicating. She thought that because there was no time for fermentation the juice will be similar to eating grapes (she made fruit juice always for me since I did not eat much when studying for exams). I would not have believed you, if I hadn't had that experience. :) Grape juice sounds so benign and innocent, but it is not.

In any case, yes, wine is an important item for Greeks. It has been since antiquity.

My father's family makes wine always, and even some other distilled drink from grapes which is so powerful that makes isopropyl alcohol seem like water in comparison (and I think that whoever consumes that has hole-y liver :) ). However, in my immediate family none is fond of alcohol. Yes, we can take a sip or two, and can tell the real wine from an impostor and some other things, but at the end we can live without alcohol. We use all kinds of alcohol, a lot, in cooking though; for instance today I made a desert with Marsala (no, not tiramisu), and yesterday I made a dish with meat and wine. The rest of the extended family enjoys in moderation (like it is said here) some alcohol with food, or meze (Greek tapas).

Yes, I am sure there must be an equivalent of AA in Greece, but in general and historically Greeks have had a very gentle relationship with wine.

Also in addition to what has been said here we know that
Noah, grew grapes and made wine after the Flood. During fasting times we are allowed to have wine on the weekend, or feast days.

All the church festivals (and not only Greek) I have been to here (or parties that parishes throw) include alcohol. It was all new to me (these church festivals, parties, dances etc.), but we attend to help parishes pay for everything they need to. Yes, it would be ideal to rely on Divine Providence.

And yes, the most recent research links alcohol to an increased risk for breast cancer. This was news also to some friends of mine, who are physicians and who recommended to their parents a glass of wine daily for health purposes.

[Olga]

Another stumbling block for our teetotaller Protestant friends is the Greek word oinos used throughout the OT and NT. This ancient (known since at least Homer's time) word has always, and to this day, always meant wine, i.e. the product of the fermentation of grape juice. Ask any Greek (layman or scholar) what this word means, and they will never tell you otherwise. The Greek word for unfermented juice would be chymos or moustos.

I can understand the reasons for the formation and continuation of the temperance movements in English and American society in earlier centuries, but to claim biblical authority for their existence, particularly the attempt at portraying the miraculous wine at Cana as unfermented grape juice is, unfortunately, way off the mark.

[Nina]

Another stumbling block for our teetotaller Protestant friends is the Greek word oinos used throughout the OT and NT. This ancient (known since at least Homer's time) word has always, and to this day, always meant wine, i.e. the product of the fermentation of grape juice. Ask any Greek (layman or scholar) what this word means, and they will never tell you otherwise. The Greek word for unfermented juice would be chymos or moustos.



Very true and thank you for mentioning this important fact.

"Oinos efrainei kardia anthropou."

[Effie Ganatsios]

Another stumbling block for our teetotaller Protestant friends is the Greek word oinos used throughout the OT and NT. This ancient (known since at least Homer's time) word has always, and to this day, always meant wine, i.e. the product of the fermentation of grape juice. Ask any Greek (layman or scholar) what this word means, and they will never tell you otherwise. The Greek word for unfermented juice would be chymos or moustos.

I.

Olga the must I refer to is of course "moustos". I asked my husband yesterday how long the grape juice remains in the barrel (with the pressed grape skins - first stage of wine making) before the must is extracted and he said under 24 hours. So I don't know whether must can really be said to be "fresh" grape juice.

In answer to Nina, I put the must in the freezer to stop the fermentation process. Ice wine sounds nice!

And the other alcohol Nina refers to in her message wouldn't be tsiporo, would it?

This is pure alcohol and is made by distilling the pressed grape skins (after they have been removed from the must). This pure alchohol is made in all areas of Greece and various substances are added for flavour. Up here in north Greece we add aniseed which gives it a delicious light licorice flavour.

This alchohol is then used for many purposes. It is mainly used as a massage oil (without the oil) and a tiny amount is used as a base for the many liqueurs the women make here. It is also a very strong drink in itself, so strong that only a tiny amount is placed in a glass, this is then topped off with water. It is considered an "old man's" drink. To warm their old bones, perhaps. I have only seen men drink one glass (water added) of this.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Effie,

Seeing your such a wine expert :), I was wondering how many glasses would you be allowed to have for health reasons?

It's just that I read it can bring breast cancer in women.

Thanks
Angela+++

Angela, I am hardly a wine expert. It's just that I take part in the grape harvest and the subsequent wine making every year. We have a 1000sq. meter vineyard in our block of land. Just enough for our wine needs each year. I also use the vine leaves for dolmathakia - stuffed vine leaves with minced meat and rice. I freeze the tender spring leaves and use them during the winter.

1 glass at our main meal is what my husband drinks. I drink half a glass.

Red wine has been found to be beneficial in preventing various types of cancer, according to the sources I posted in a previous message.

I did find this though which suggests that you are right :

"Strong evidence suggests that consuming more than 3 to 4 drinks per week increases your risk of breast cancer. One drink is equal to 12 oz. beer, 5 oz. wine, 1.5 oz liquor. If you have included red wine to your diet to help reduce heart disease risk, why not eat red grapes or drink purple, 100% natural grape juice. The protective phytochemicals are found in the grapes, not the alcohol. Tea and onions are another source of these protective phytochemicals.

However, there is no denying that alcohol in moderation is associated with a lower risk of heart disease. A large body of evidence supports this. But, there is convincing evidence that moderate alcohol consumption may lead to modest increases in breast cancer risk.

..If you are a woman who is at high risk for developing cancer, I would advise that you limit your consumption to less than one alcoholic drink per day. "

Effie

Angela I should add that I cannot drink commercial wine. A couple of sips brings on a headache. This is because of the additives that are in commercial wine. Our wine is pure, no chemicals on the vines, no additives in the wine. No headaches.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Nina wrote : "Yes, I am sure there must be an equivalent of AA in Greece, but in general and historically Greeks have had a very gentle relationship with wine."

Nina, unfortunately this is true only for the older generation. We have always had a little wine with our meals. Never, never by itself.

Things have changed though. Young people now go to clubs where all sorts of alchohol are drunk - rarely wine, and certainly no home made wine - and they drink without eating. Alcoholism is on the rise, certainly not to the extent that I saw in Australia, with drunks sometimes lying on the footpath outside pubs, but it is increasing.

Effie

[Olga]

I can also vouch for the (very moderate) consumption of tsipouro in the north of Greece, and its close relative, raki. The Balkan Slavs and Romanians have also long been associated with distilling slivovits from plums and other fruit, though I cannot vouch for their moderation or otherwise in its consumption.

There is also the longstanding tradition of flavouring distilled spirit, be it tsipouro, raki or vodka, with various fruits or other flavours, to produce liqueurs. A particularly unusual drink comes from the border regions of Romania, Ukraine, and the area around the Black Sea, where spirit is infused with fragrant rose petals. Even among Russians and other Slavs, this is a little-known flavour. I have had the pleasure, and it is simply wonderful.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I can also vouch for the (very moderate) consumption of tsipouro in the north of Greece, and its close relative, raki. The Balkan Slavs and Romanians have also long been associated with distilling slivovits from plums and other fruit, though I cannot vouch for their moderation or otherwise in its consumption.

There is also the longstanding tradition of flavouring distilled spirit, be it tsipouro, raki or vodka, with various fruits or other flavours, to produce liqueurs. A particularly unusual drink comes from the border regions of Romania, Ukraine, and the area around the Black Sea, where spirit is infused with fragrant rose petals. Even among Russians and other Slavs, this is a little-known flavour. I have had the pleasure, and it is simply wonderful.

Here we make a spoon sweet with rose petals, Olga. There is an old rose plant called 1000 petals which is used. It is very difficult to find now because it is not a commercial rose. You can still find it but unfortunately it is slowly disappearing.The Persian Damask Rose and the Bulgarian Damask Rose are also used to make essential oil - the Persian is the best but both are very, very expensive.

A couple of years ago an experiment was started in the region of Napoli about 50 km from here, to grow damask roses and then distill the essential oil.

The soil was found to be very suitable, and even though this enterprise is still in the early stages, everything indicates that this might prove to be a good money producing industry. Stevia - 200 times sweeter than sugar and good for diabetics - is also being tried in several areas.

My husband and I plan to go to Napoli and try and buy some of these rose plants. I ordered two from a catalogue last year and only one proved to be what I wanted. I gather rose petals, dry them, and then add them to hot water for bathing.


Olga, don't you just love all these natural and wonderful plants that God has created. Each country has a treasury of wonderful recipes which use natural products. It's a shame that more emphasis is not given to such things. There is obviously little money to be made by large international companies because up to now they aren't allowed to patent plants - but they will probably find a way to do this in the future. Remember the devious attempts to privatize water in Bolivia by a North American company and a French company. The World Bank had made privatization of water a condition for a loan to the Bolivian government. The people were even forbidden to gather and store rainwater!!! How they planned to do this remains a mystery! These companies were stopped in 2005 when the people took to the streets in protest. Similar methods will probably be used in the future for the looting of other natural resources.

There was a dicussion a week ago on TV about the antichrist and the end of the world. A monk said that we would have no water. The above makes this possibility more believable, if we take into consideration that the actions of the above mentioned French company in this one region meant that 200.000 people were without water for a number of years.

Effie

[Olga]

There is an old rose plant called 1000 petals which is used. It is very difficult to find now because it is not a commercial rose.

I think I have this rose, Effie. A cutting was given to me by a Greek lady, and the bush has taken. The fragrance is magnificent. Here we call it the black rose because of its rich purple-red colour. Pity it would be close to impossible to send you a cutting, due to quarantine regulations. :((

[Michael Stickles]

Mike, I think we all do a lot of picking and choosing when trying to prove a point. By we, I mean all Christian denominations. Do you agree?

Effie

Absolutely. That's why I said "one" instead of "they" -- wanted the statement to be generic so as not to leave anyone out. Can't help but wonder what "mental contortions" I might still have hiding in my own belief system...

Mike

[Nina]

In answer to Nina, I put the must in the freezer to stop the fermentation process. Ice wine sounds nice!

Oh that is a very good idea. In our extended family the must goes very fast. They even give a bit to children after they mix it with honey.



And the other alcohol Nina refers to in her message wouldn't be tsiporo, would it?Yes. Tsipouro was invented by monks in Mount Athos. In addition to tsipouro, there is also raki like Olga said (or like the Italian grappa - there are versions of tsipouro all over southern Europe).


This alchohol is then used for many purposes. It is mainly used as a massage oil (without the oil) and a tiny amount is used as a base for the many liqueurs the women make here.Yes. It is used also after the practice of cupping (venduza). When someone caught a cold they used cupping for the sick. After cupping, they mixed extra virgin olive oil with the alcoholic drink (sometime they added some crushed aspirin) and with this they massaged the entire body. The next morning there was not a sign of the cold.

Or if a kid had a toothache during weekend (and there was no dentist relative near by :) ) grandmothers gave the child some of this drink to keep in the mouth for about two minutes and then eject it. It secured a pain-free weekend until dentists were working again.

There are many beneficial uses of these distilled drinks from grapes. Folk medicine is filled with them. At least like Effie says these are natural gifts from God. Today we load up our systems with painkillers with plenty of harmful side effects. Or take something like mouthwash for example. Some of them have very high alcohol content, and that alcohol is chemical.



It is also a very strong drink in itself, so strong that only a tiny amount is placed in a glass, this is then topped off with water. It is considered an "old man's" drink. To warm their old bones, perhaps. I have only seen men drink one glass (water added) of this.:) I have seen women also drink it. They serve it in shot glass. And I have seen it without water, or ice. They drink it straight, but always as an aperitif, or accompanied by meze, or food. Those who have higher tolerance drink more than a shot glass. It is a must-serve in happy gatherings like baptisms, weddings, engagements, or in other moments like death, or memorial etc. Along with the Greek sweets-of-the- spoon is considered a gesture of hospitality (of course it has to be homemade, because all get headache when drinking commercial ones, like Effie said). Thus the relationship with alcohol has been a good one and people in that area of the world in general did not abuse alcohol, but used it as a means to facilitate life, or enjoy with food, like they did with other herbs and plants from God.



Nina wrote : "Yes, I am sure there must be an equivalent of AA in Greece, but in general and historically Greeks have had a very gentle relationship with wine."

Nina, unfortunately this is true only for the older generation. We have always had a little wine with our meals. Never, never by itself.

Things have changed though. Young people now go to clubs where all sorts of alchohol are drunk - rarely wine, and certainly no home made wine - and they drink without eating. Alcoholism is on the rise, certainly not to the extent that I saw in Australia, with drunks sometimes lying on the footpath outside pubs, but it is increasing.

EffieYes, dear Effie. That was my point that this in general is an imported behavior for Greeks in Greece, or an adopted behavior for Greeks in diaspora. That is why these church festivals with drinks etc. is a new adopted phenomenon.


Olga, don't you just love all these natural and wonderful plants that God has created. Each country has a treasury of wonderful recipes which use natural products. It's a shame that more emphasis is not given to such things. There is obviously little money to be made by large international companies because up to now they aren't allowed to patent plants - but they will probably find a way to do this in the future. Remember the devious attempts to privatize water in Bolivia by a North American company and a French company. The World Bank had made privatization of water a condition for a loan to the Bolivian government. The people were even forbidden to gather and store rainwater!!! How they planned to do this remains a mystery! These companies were stopped in 2005 when the people took to the streets in protest. Similar methods will probably be used in the future for the looting of other natural resources.

There was a dicussion a week ago on TV about the antichrist and the end of the world. A monk said that we would have no water. The above makes this possibility more believable, if we take into consideration that the actions of the above mentioned French company in this one region meant that 200.000 people were without water for a number of years.

EffieEffie, have you read the book by Michael Crichton, Next ?
It speaks about gene patenting.

Also there was a lawsuit from Starbucks against an Orthodox monastery here. This monastery sells coffee called 'Christmas Blend'. Starbucks said that has a trademark on the expression 'Christmas Blend'. Maybe someone should remind Starbucks that Christians have a trademark on the word Christmas.

[Father David Moser]

Also there was a lawsuit from Starbucks against an Orthodox monastery here. This monastery sells coffee called 'Christmas Blend'. Starbucks said that has a trademark on the expression 'Christmas Blend'. Maybe someone should remind Starbucks that Christians have a trademark on the word Christmas.

Acually Starbucks dropped the lawsuit when it became apparent that they were on the wrong end of a lot of bad publicity. You can order Christmas Blend from the All-Merciful Savior Monastery (http://vashonmonks.com/index.php) on Vashon Island in Seattle

Fr David Moser

[Olga]

This little joke just landed in my inbox:

An Irish priest is driving down to New York and gets stopped for speeding in Connecticut. The state trooper smells alcohol on the priest's breath and then sees an empty wine bottle on the floor of the car.

He says, 'Sir, have you been drinking?'

'Just water,' says the priest.

The trooper says, 'Then why do I smell wine?'

The priest looks at the bottle and says, 'Good Lord! He's done it again!'

[Effie Ganatsios]

I think I have this rose, Effie. A cutting was given to me by a Greek lady, and the bush has taken. The fragrance is magnificent. Here we call it the black rose because of its rich purple-red colour. Pity it would be close to impossible to send you a cutting, due to quarantine regulations. :((

I'm travelling to Australia on the 15th of November, Olga. Perhaps we can smuggle it on the plane when I return here!!!!

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Nina wrote :
"Yes. Tsipouro was invented by monks in Mount Athos. In addition to tsipouro, there is also raki like Olga said (or like the Italian grappa - there are versions of tsipouro all over southern Europe). "

We sometimes call this alchohol tsipouri and sometimes raki. I don't really know the difference. I believe the older people use the word raki.

"Or if a kid had a toothache during weekend (and there was no dentist relative near by :) ) grandmothers gave the child some of this drink to keep in the mouth for about two minutes and then eject it. It secured a pain-free weekend until dentists were working again."

When my son was teething, my f-i-l told me to just wet my finger with the tsipouri and rub his gums to ease the pain. It worked. I told my pediatrician about this and he nearly had a fit.



"Effie, have you read the book by Michael Crichton, Next ?
It speaks about gene patenting. "

No, I haven't Nina. I have a few of Michael Crichton's books but not this one. The whole subject makes me fearful of the future. I have faith in God though. Do you have the impression, as I do, that man is trying to be God?

Effie

p.s. Nina, I have put quotation marks at the beginning and end of your comments. I tried to do the same as you did - pale blue shade for quotes - but it didn't work. It works for whole quotes but not when I separate the original message.

[Father David Moser]

p.s. Nina, I have put quotation marks at the beginning and end of your comments. I tried to do the same as you did - pale blue shade for quotes - but it didn't work. It works for whole quotes but not when I separate the original message.

If you are composing your posts online, there is a button across the top that looks like a text bubble in a cartoon. This button will wrap quotes around selected text so all you have to do is highlight the text you want to have in quotes and then click on that button and the quote tags will automatically be inserted. When you read the text in the editor, you don't see the blue box, only the text of the tags (which is the word "quote" surrounded by brackets at the beginning of the quote and then "/quote" surrounded by brackets at the end of the quote.), however if you click on "preview post" it will show you how the post will look once it is submitted.

Fr David

[Effie Ganatsios]

If you are composing your posts online, there is a button across the top that looks like a text bubble in a cartoon.

OK




This button will wrap quotes around selected text so all you have to do is highlight the text you want to have in quotes and then click on that button and the quote tags will automatically be inserted.

Thank you Fr. David