Why invoke intercessors at all? [Archive] - Monachos.net Discussion Community

Andrew

17-10-2007, 06:15 AM

There are no actual Biblical references to asking for intercession of the dead

BUT...

The apostles ask the people in the churches to pray for them.
Whoso liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.
THEREFORE
Ask the believers to pray after their repose.

Simple deductive logic: A and B therefore C.

Cutting the living prayer to saints down to a syllogism is like is like getting a person to make an intellectual argument for why their heart beats. It just does. That is the same with prayer to the saints. It is a part of the Body of Christ. When people from outside the Church ask about it, then we think up of stuff, sometimes very weak arguments. For example, saying "we recognize seven ecumenical councils and stand by what they say" is much easier to say to an than "we take the word of deified men to be a good measurement of what we should follow so that we too have a chance at deification within our Loving Lord who took flesh and united the uncreated and the created." That is why you will sometimes see contradictory statements on certain matters (especially ecclesiology), or what seems to be disorganization. Or you will see (seemingly) lame defenses for certain practices. We just don't care about arguing points sometimes. We live. Abstractions are illusions. We live in the flesh and blood of Christ, not the ideal world of forms and whatnot. We love a Personal God, not an impersonal absolute.

Like the Church, my writings are disorganized! As my bishop says, "If you don't like organized religion, become Orthodox!"

Also, remember this. Orthodox anthropology is different from the modern Western one. The Western one sees through reason. Reason actually is just one of the tools of the nous, and the nous is supposed to be united to the heart. The heart is the center of man. When man lives from the heart he lives true life... he sees things as they actually are. He lives on the ontological plane of being. When we live from reason with syllogisms and abstractions, we actually live in a fantasy world cooked up by our disconnected heads. When we live from the core of our being, the heart, we acquire wisdom, discernment, and Christlike love. The point of everything in the Orthodox Church is so that we can become integrated beings who are one within ourselves from the heart, with the Holy Trinity and all the heavenly hosts living within our heart, all the cosmos in our heart, one with all of mankind. Prayer to the saints is crucial in this! We cannot be saved alone.

Paul Cowan

17-10-2007, 06:49 AM

Syllogism \Syl"lo*gism\, noun [OE. silogisme, OF. silogime, sillogisme, F. syllogisme, L. syllogismus, Gr. syllogismo's a reckoning all together, a reasoning, syllogism, fr. syllogi'zesqai to reckon all together, to bring at once before the mind, to infer, conclude; sy'n with, together + logi'zesqai to reckon, to conclude by reasoning. See {Syn-}, and {Logistic}, {Logic}.] (Logic) The regular logical form of every argument, consisting of three propositions, of which the first two are called the premises, and the last, the conclusion. The conclusion necessarily follows from the premises; so that, if these are true, the conclusion must be true, and the argument amounts to demonstration;

Note: as in the following example: Every virtue is laudable; Kindness is a virtue; Therefore kindness is laudable. These propositions are denominated respectively the major premise, the minor premise, and the conclusion.

Note: If the premises are not true and the syllogism is regular, the reasoning is valid, and the conclusion, whether true or false, is correctly derived.

From WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]:

syllogism

noun: deductive reasoning in which a conclusion is derived from two premises

I find the bold above interesting. So whether the answer is right or wrong, as long as the reasoning is valid the conclusion is correct? This line of logic can open some very nasty doors. It's no wonder the Church does not bow to "reason" and 21st century "logic". Or logic from any century.

Paul

Patrick Lee

17-10-2007, 07:33 AM

I think part of the answer may be the Trinity. If we are made in the Image and Likeness of God, we, too, only are "real" or "natural" to the extent that we exist in communion. Praying for each other is a significant part of that communion, IMO.

David Naess

17-10-2007, 08:21 AM

In Orthodoxy the Church is ONE. Both the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant is the One Body of Christ inseperable. The communion of the Saints also includes the heavenly Church who are closer to God, thus they too can intercess for us.
Thanks Kosta!

This looks like it is the best response given the mindset of my inquisitors (family members.)

It is short, concise and leaves them with a bit to chew on. I'm coming out of a Lutheran tradition where the whole concept of "the community of saints" is, at best, a bit fuzzy.

Anthony

26-11-2007, 12:46 PM

Note: If the premises are not true and the syllogism is regular, the reasoning is valid, and the conclusion, whether true or false, is correctly derived.

I find the bold above interesting. So whether the answer is right or wrong, as long as the reasoning is valid the conclusion is correct? This line of logic can open some very nasty doors. It's no wonder the Church does not bow to "reason" and 21st century "logic". Or logic from any century.

Paul

It doesn't say that the conclusion is correct, only that it is "correctly derived", that is to say it does follow from the premises.

For the conclusion to be correct requires both the reasoning to be valid and the premises to be true. (The argument is then not just valid but "cogent".)

Whether it is appropriate to use logic in this context or not, and whether the arguments put forward on this thread are correct or not, is of course another question (or even two other questions).

(bold face original)

Amy

28-11-2007, 04:47 PM

Dave N.

Howdy!

I found your topic interesting because I've faced similar questions from family members. From a Protestant mindset, I agree that it is the understanding of the Church Triumphant and Church Militant being one and the same, which gives pause to my inquirers.

When someone asks me about intercessory prayer to the saints, I reply , "Death is no defeat for the christian! to be absent in body is to be present with the Lord, as St. Paul said." I've never had anyone to disagree with that; it's just a matter of believing we are truly surrounded by a 'great cloud of witnesses', that those who have finished the race may know my voice and beseech God on my behalf.

Nina

28-11-2007, 05:44 PM

Anthony

28-11-2007, 06:00 PM

When I first became Orthodox I used to argue on the following lines (among others): we pray to Christ because he is God, and we pray to the saints because they are Christ (Christ is in them).

Also because it is God's will to glorify his saints. It isn't like there is only a finite amount of glory to go round, and glorifying the saints is taking glory away from God.

(And no, none of this is meant to be a syllogism.)

M.C. Steenberg

03-12-2007, 12:32 AM

When someone asks me about intercessory prayer to the saints, I reply , "Death is no defeat for the christian!

Indeed, one of the standard responses to queries on prayer with the departed is to call upon the witness of the Hebrew people in the time of the Maccabees, who clearly believed their departed brethren and fathers to remain alive in the power of God - even before the testimony of Christ's resurrection.

Either death has been defeated in the resurrection, in which case the only hindrance to accepting prayer with the departed is a lack of fully appreciating the reality of this; or death has not been defeated in the resurrection, in which case prayer doesn't matter, whether for the dead or the living.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Shawn Lazar

03-12-2007, 01:21 AM

I have to wonder, however... Many (most?) pagan cultures believed their ancestors could help them from the afterlife and thus would offer prayers and supplications to them. That is a near universal pagan practice, is it not? Its not original to Christianity.

So my question is, are we really just grasping for theological reasons to justify a pagan practice that people refused to give up as Christianity spread through the world? When I read the Bible and the Apostolic Fathers, I see no example of entreating the dead ('reposed') saints and asking for their help. Considering the central role this plays in the modern Orthodox spirituality, I find this total absence suprising. So when did this practice arise? Does anyone know of the earliest patristic example of a prayers to a saint?

--Shawn

M.C. Steenberg

03-12-2007, 10:39 AM

Dear Mr Lazar,

You've posed some interesting questions. Firstly, I would want to re-iterate that the ultimate reference point for prayer - whether with the living or the dead - is the resurrection of Christ. The resurrection is the defeat of death: it is no more. Scripture is able to cry out, 'Death, where is thy sting?' The barrier to life posed by death is erased in the resurrection, when Christ 'puts death to death by death' (to take up the Paschal hymn). Orthodox attitudes to prayer are grounded in this perception of resurrection: the fact that a person has died simply has little bearing on the relationship of prayer, if the resurrection and its power to life is genuine.

Secondly, you raise the question of practices in precedent Pagan religions. There is something here, in terms of limited commonality of practice. But, as has recently been discussed in a different thread, antecedents in history are often evidence of deeper realisations in human nature. What was done by other groups prior to Christ is not necessarily common in Christians because the early Church 'copied' or assimilated their practices; there are very real ways in which Christianity understands certain commonalities as the fruit of the Word imbued in all humanity. Justin the Philosopher, writing in the second century, made a great point of indicating precisely this.

Those are a few reactions to your most recent post from the perspective of my own comments. Here is a touch of the 'evidence' you enquired after:

The scriptural evidence comes most strongly from the Old Testament book of 2 Maccabees (12.43-45), where it is explicitly stated that Judas Maccabeus offers prayers as well as sacrifice for the dead. The form of the statement in the passage makes it clear that this was nothing unusual, and it held him in good esteem with his associates.

There are inscriptions in the catacombs (dating from the mid-first century, with most inscriptions coming from the first few centuries), which implore those who visit the tombs to pray for those at rest therein.

From the patristic sources:

The so-called 'Acts of John' records (c. AD 160) that liturgical commemorations of its era already made it the practice of commemorating the departed - a fact echoed in Hippolytus and Tertullian, the latter writing only a few decades after the Acta, in the latter second century AD. Tertullian, for his part, makes reference to private prayers for the dead (cf., for example, his De monogamia), and is the first Christian writer to speak so extensively about prayer for the dead (e.g. at De exhortatione castitatis, 11; De anima, 8; De monogamia, 10; De corona, 3). It is noteworthy that in these comments, Tertullian speaks of prayer for the dead as the commonplace practice in the Church.

Moving a bit later, Cyprian writes to his compatriot (in his Epistle 57), noting that prayers should still be offered for one another, even of one or the other dies. Eusebius, the Church historian in the fourth century, wrote concerning the death of the emperor, Constantine:
'a vast crowd of people together with the priests of God offered their prayers to God for the Emperor's soul with tears and great lamentation' (On the life of Constantine, 4.71) Perhaps most interestingly, by the latter part of the fourth century the practice was so engrained into the life and practice of the Church that Acrius, a priest, was condemned a heretic on grounds that he denied the legitimacy of prayers for the dead.

Familiar (and commonly cited) testimony giving evidence of the practice of prayer for the dead comes also from a number of sources in the early Chuch: Amobius (Adversus gentes 4.36), Cyprian (Epistle 1), Cyril of Jerusalem (Mystagogics 5.7), Augustine (De civitatis Dei 21.13; De cura pro mortuis 1, 4), the Apostolic Constitutions 8.2.12, 4.41. This latter document contains evidence of the liturgical forms of such prayer as practiced at the time. St John Chrysostom, the 1,600th anniversary of whose death we commemorated earlier this Autumn, is one of many who speaks of prayer for the dead as a tradition passed down from the apostles -- a 'law laid down by the Apostles', to use his own phrasing (In his Homilies on Philippians 1.4; cf. also homily 3 on the same book).

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Kosta

03-12-2007, 11:28 AM

Matthew Panchisin

03-12-2007, 04:05 PM

Dear Shawn,

One may also read of Lazarus in Holy Writ.

But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

We can hear further:

Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

In the Orthodox Church we hear our Priest's cry out, In the fear of God, with faith and love come forward!

There is a beauty that can be heard when one is blessed to hear a Priest or bishop cry for the flock, those tears drop but often people don't hear them. I agree Kosta, the reality of the saints helping us is proven daily.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Shawn Lazar

04-12-2007, 02:29 AM

Thanks for the thought provoking responses, Mr. Steenberg and Panchisin,

I think I understand the appropriateness of saying prayers to God for the departed. And I'm sure the early Christian and deuterocanonical evidence you cited certainly supports that. As far as I know, the earliest Christians always kept the memory of the martyrs at the forefront of their worship (Hence the examples of Christ's death in the gospels, Stephen's in Acts, and the Martyrdom of Polycarp).

But isn't there an important difference between (a) praying to God on behalf of the dead and (b) praying to the dead (reposed) to intercede before God on our behalf? That is to say, I sense a significant conceptual gulf between a theology of saintly commemoration, and one of saintly intercession.

While I would argue the former is consistent with Biblical practice and the earliest practice of the church, I'm not so sure about the latter. (That being said, the passages in Revelation is suggestive.)

So my question would remain, what is the earliest historical example of a prayer to a saint, with the expectation that the saint being prayed to can somehow help the person doing the praying?

I ask, of course, hoping that there will be a very early example, so that I can be reassured that the theology of saintly intercession is a genuine part of Apostolic Tradition, and not something that developed out of a synthesis of pagan culture and the Christian cult of the saints.

Shawn Lazar

04-12-2007, 02:31 AM

Oh, and let me just add another question. I was looking through Amazon.com and found a book by Peter Brown on the rise of the 'Cult of the Saints.' Does anyone know if that would be helpful to read?

Kosta

04-12-2007, 11:37 AM

Dear Shawn,

I understand your concern. And i recognize the difference between praying for the dead and praying to the saints.
I will like to expand on the verses in Revelation. In the bible, incense is offered when someone prays on behalf of a multitude of people who all have varying prayers. In the burning of incense it is as if all the prayers of the faithful ascend in the smoke before God.

In Luke the lot to burn incense fell to Zacharias the priest. The people would all gather together outside the temple and pray, during the "hour of incense". (Lk 6.10)-"And the whole multitude of the people were praying outside at the hour of incense."

As Zacharias was offering the incense the angel appeared, "Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him standing on the right side of the altar of incense." (Lk 6.11)
The news the angel brought says: "....for your prayer is heard..."(Lk 6.13)

In the LXX Tobit 12.15 "...Now when thou didst pray and Sara thy daughter in law. I did bring the remembrance of your prayers before the Holy One...And when thou didst not delay to rise up and leave thy dinner to go and cover thy dead thou good deed was not hid from me, but i was with thee....I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One"

The above verses verify that Rev 5.8 & 8.3 speak of prayers offered thru the heavrnly saints and angels by the earthly christians. (8.3)"And i saw the 7 angels who stand before God....Then another angel having a golden censor came and stood at the altar. he was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints ascended before God from the angels hand. "

What the angel is doing in Rev 8.3 is the exact same thing Zacharias was doing in the gospel of Luke. For the earthly worship imitates the heavenly. You should compare the two accounts side by side.

Important thing to point out is that in 8.3 the incese "was given" in order to "offer it". God himself allows this privelege because it is pleasing to Him. God himself offers the incense to the heavenly host to offer it.

The same applies to the departed saints. Both the saints and angels are finite but are granted such a privelege by God himself. The angel Raphael said "i was with thee' not because angels are infinite but the same way saints are said to appear, to protect and rescue people in the Orthodox tradition.

This power to sponsor the prayers of the church militant along with the other priveleges associated with it is also granted to the saints:

....."The four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full; of incense, which are the prayers of the saints". Rev 5.8

Now its possible that the "cult of the saints" did not spring up instantly, just like the offering of incense by the christian church was not from the very beginning. It was seen as something associated with pagan practise. But once paganism ceased, the christians began using incense. You can say it was pagan influence i prefer to consider it prophecy: ".....My Name shall be great among the gentiles, and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name and a pure offering, for my name shall be great among the heathen says the Lord of Hosts." (Mal 1.11)

RichardWorthington

04-12-2007, 06:56 PM

Hi! I also converted to Holy Orthodoxy from Evangelicism - and asking the saints to pray for us was a big issue: after all, if we need intercessors with Christ, does this mean that He does not love us properly?

I remember reading through the Bible and I was struck dumb when I read the following passage:

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:22-24)

Here, the spirits of the departed Christians are placed in the passage between God and Jesus!!! I looked at every commentary in my local university library, and none offered any sensible interpretation of this passage other than my own: as we have come to God and to Jesus, so we have come to the departed Christians made perfect ('saints'). (The word 'spirits' can only really refer to the departed. Interestingly the Protestant translation/paraphrase the New Living Bible renders this as, "spirits of the redeemed in heaven".)

An earlier post referred to Judas Maccabeus seeing Jeremiah the prophet praying for them (this is not quite asking Jeremiah to pray for him, but surely the difference is merely a technicality?):

And this was his vision: That Onias, who had been high priest, a virtuous and a good man, reverend in conversation, gentle in condition, well spoken also, and exercised from a child in all points of virtue, holding up his hands prayed for the whole body of the Jews. This done, in like manner there appeared a man with gray hairs, and exceeding glorious, who was of a wonderful and excellent majesty. Then Onias answered, saying, This is a lover of the brethren, who prayeth much for the people, and for the holy city, to wit, Jeremias the prophet of God. Whereupon Jeremias holding forth his right hand gave to Judas a sword of gold, and in giving it spake thus, Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with the which thou shalt wound the adversaries. (2 Maccabees 15:12-16)
(2 Maccabees is in the apocrypha, which I know Protestants will not adhere to, but the early Jews and therefore Christians read it, it being part of the Septuagint translation even if it might have been classed as lesser than the main OT. The fact that it has been preserved in Greek shows that the early Christians were happy reading it; compare with the Book of Enoch being quoted in the letter of Jude.)

Fascinatingly, I recently found an entry in the infallible (!) Wikipedia, mentioning a prayer to the 'Virgin Mother of God (Theotokos)' in a text dating to about 250AD. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium - unfortunately it does not give any references.) This is about 100 years before St Athanasius of Alexandra, in about 367AD, listed the books of the NT as being fully and only the 27 books we have today.

Please note that the above usages are related to the liturgical life of the church, and so probably would not have been spoken about in public or put into dogmatical books. The phrase in Hebrews "the spirits of just (righteous) men made perfect" is quoted in the Divine Liturgy just before the commemoration of the Virgin. And Kosta's very interesting post about offering incense is also about the liturgical life. Incense may not have been used in the early church, but it was used in the OT: "Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice." (Psalm 141:2, we recite this at Vespers; also the Psalms do directly address the heavenly host: "Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his heavenly hosts.", Psalm 148:2, NIV)

St John Chrysostom (4th century) commenting on John 16: 23-27 ("you will ask me nothing … I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you: for the Father Himself loves you") interprets Christ as saying to us, "Ye shall need no intercessor, but it is sufficient that ye call on My name and so gain all things". When St Paul writes, "There is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5), he comments, "This is the property of a mediator, to be in close communion with each of those whose mediator he is". The church which prevailed in the Roman Empire was spiritually very healthy (even if our own human weaknesses did indeed manifest themselves). Also, in the writings of Blessed Theodoret (whose life overlapped with St John Chrysostom) on the life of the Syrian monks he frequently asks for the prayers of the departed monks. The two approaches (prayer direct to Christ and prayer to saints) are not opposed to each other, but are in harmony when correctly lived.

I see prayer to the saints and their veneration as part of the words of Christ:

And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. (John 17:22-23 )

Christ's glory is seen in those made perfect. What type of Saviour would He be if He had no trophies of His Salvation? I am confident that He does want us to invoke and venerate the Saints as proof that He shares His own Resurrection Glory so we become, in the Holy Spirit, "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) - not that we become additional members of the Trinity or worshipped ourselves, for "My glory I will not give to another", Isaiah 42:8). To deny the veneration of the saints is to deny our salvation in Christ, or do we cease being in Christ when we die? (Interestingly, talking about the difference between veneration and worship, in Revelation 3:9 Jesus says that "I will make them come and worship before your feet". Here He is not talking about the worship due to God alone, but obviously some type of veneration.)

Christ is in us and we are in Christ (albeit imperfectly!); the saints in heaven are perfectly in Christ and Christ in them. How can the authentic veneration of the saints separate us from Christ and His love for us? Do we not yearn for blessings upon our loved ones? So too the saints yearn for us to become closer to the beautiful Christ; they want to help us and be involved in our growing closer to Him. They love us with the love of Christ!

Richard

PS. I wrote a piece on the link between Lady Wisdom and the Virgin Mary (to pass the time!), and at the end I added a bit on the veneration of Mary and the Saints, asking why they should be venerated and invoked. The bit at the end has been uploaded; it is still incomplete regarding some references, but still reads okay I think.

PPS. Sorry this post is long, but I am now devoted to the veneration of the saints!

Rick H.

04-12-2007, 07:12 PM

So my question would remain, what is the earliest historical example of a prayer to a saint, with the expectation that the saint being prayed to can somehow help the person doing the praying?

I ask, of course, hoping that there will be a very early example, so that I can be reassured that the theology of saintly intercession is a genuine part of Apostolic Tradition, and not something that developed out of a synthesis of pagan culture and the Christian cult of the saints.

I have just started reading this excellent thread; but, I am wondering if Shawn's question about 'the earliest historical example of prayer to a saint . . .' has been answered.

In Christ,
Rick

M.C. Steenberg

04-12-2007, 08:57 PM

Dear Shawn and others,

I continue to enjoy this thoughtful thread. In your most recent post, you wrote:

But isn't there an important difference between (a) praying to God on behalf of the dead and (b) praying to the dead (reposed) to intercede before God on our behalf? That is to say, I sense a significant conceptual gulf between a theology of saintly commemoration, and one of saintly intercession.

This is precisely the area in which understanding prayer as communion in the resurrection is so important.

As I and others have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the key issue in prayer with the departed is not in fact the prayer itself, but the question of life in death. Most Christian people show no hesitation in accepting and engaging in intercessory prayer - with the one caveat that the intercessor must be alive. And petitioning intercession of another is common in almost all traditions. If one is ill, one generally asks those close to him: 'Say a prayer for me' - and in few contexts indeed would anyone hesitate over the acceptability of asking for another's prayer in this way (especially since it is commanded in the scriptures). And this is, by definition, intercessory prayer. More than this, most people often don't give a second thought to seeking out specific intercessors for specific needs in prayer. If one is suffering from depression and knows another who struggles with this challenge, how much the readier is he to go to that person and say, 'Pray for me in this, since you have been in this situation and know - perhaps better than I - what I truly need prayer for'.

Intercessory prayer - that is, interceding before God on another's behalf, and asking others to intercede before God on one's own behalf - is common in almost every Christian traditin I know (in fact, I do not know of any Christian traditions where it is not). However, as I mentioned, the main caveat with this in many traditions is that the intercessor must be alive. Once death arrives, that intercession is seen to stop.

And this is where one sees that the real question is not about intercessory prayer, but about life in death. The testimony of the resurrection of Christ is that it is the defeat of death. It still exists, for a time; but its power is destroyed. Pascha (Easter) means nothing, if it does not mean that death is no longer the defeat of life. Those who have died are not 'gone', but live in the resurrection of Christ.

This is what lies behind the whole notion of prayer transcending death. Fundamentally, death does not alter a relationship of prayer. If a person continues to live in Christ after death, my petitions of love for that person will not end with death - for the person still lives. And if we ask one to pray for us, and that person then dies - are we then to stop asking for their prayer? If the impulse is to respond 'yes', one has to ask, 'Am I really taking the resurrection seriously?'

You also wrote:

So my question would remain, what is the earliest historical example of a prayer to a saint, with the expectation that the saint being prayed to can somehow help the person doing the praying?

I ask, of course, hoping that there will be a very early example, so that I can be reassured that the theology of saintly intercession is a genuine part of Apostolic Tradition, and not something that developed out of a synthesis of pagan culture and the Christian cult of the saints.

I am not sure I would be confident in asserting a specific 'first instance'; I've never looked exhaustively into the practice in that way. The first clear scriptural evidence is in 2 Maccabees, which is a concrete part of the Old Testaments as early Christians read and knew it (and as the Orthodox Church still maintains it; it is not part of an 'Apocrypha' in the LXX) - where the troops of Judas ask heavenly intercession from the deceased, including from the prophet Jeremias. The book of the Apocalypse (Revelation) is symbolic and therefore not direct, but includes testimony of the martyrs serving at the throne of God in heaven.

As per my last post, there are inscriptions in the catacombs, dating from the first and second centuries, that petition the departed to pray for the world. And by the time one gets to the high conciliar age (3rd and 4th centuries AD), the practice of asking intercession is so common that it will form a standard part of funeral orations.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Anthony

04-12-2007, 08:57 PM

This article (http://www.catacombe.roma.it/en/spiritualita.html) about the catacombs may be of interest. Like everything picked up off the internet it comes without warranty, though it tallies with what I have always understood to be the case (especially the invocations of Peter and Paul). Also I don't know the dates of these inscriptions, though presumably they date from the time of the pre-Constantinian persecutions.

The following passage I found particularly interesting:

The spirituality of the catacombs is moreover "social". The Christian , who is accustomed to say in prayer not "my Father" but "our Father", knows that in God's family one does not live separately, but socially. "Though many in number, we form one body in Christ" (Rom 12,59). The catacombs give us the image of this mystical body in which, in a hierarchy of roles and in one and the same unity of spirit, Christians live together in an orderly way. Here the Roman Pontiffs lie at rest among the humble anonymous multitude of their flock.
From the front of a sarcophagus a child raises his hands as an "Orante" who happily enjoys the peace of Heaven; on either side of him Peter and Paul, the founders of the Church of Rome, sustain him, as if they were introducing him into heaven. At Domitilla, in a picture of an arcosolium, Veneranda is represented in travelling clothes, on the threshold of the heavenly motherland, at the end of her exile.
The local saint, Petronilla, receives and introduces her. There is an exchange of prayers between the various parts of the Church.

Hundreds of pilgrims, buried in the Memoria of the ancient Appian Way (the Catacombs of St. Sebastian), invoke Peter and Paul, by scratching short prayers on the plaster of the triclia ( hall for funeral banquets, in the open air): "Paul and Peter, pray for Victor - Paul,Peter, pray for Sozomenon".

At the entrance of the Crypt of the Popes in St. Callixtus, the wall is covered with prayers: "O St. Sixtus, remember in your prayers Aurelius Repentinus" " Holy Spirits, p(ray that) Verecundus may be safe at sea with his dear ones". At times there is no expressed prayer: to implore is enough to add a title to his name: " Felicio, priest and sinner".

We have thousands of inscriptions with prayers of the living for the dead or with earnest requests to the dead that they pray for those still alive. In a social mystical body,each individual person is bound to the entire Church..

Anthony

04-12-2007, 09:04 PM

Sorry, I posted the above without seeing Fr Matthew's post, which has perhaps made it redundant.

M.C. Steenberg

04-12-2007, 09:06 PM

Not at all, Anthony. In fact, I'm very grateful for your post. I'd made a comment on the inscriptions of the catacombs without having to hand any specific quotations; so your post gives some concrete examples of the kinds of intercessions asked of the departed in those contexts.

To walk through the catacombs, see the places where the bodies lay, and read such inscriptions - it is quite an overwhelming experience.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Nina

04-12-2007, 11:58 PM

I have just started reading this excellent thread; but, I am wondering if Shawn's question about 'the earliest historical example of prayer to a saint . . .' has been answered.

In Christ,
Rick

(In addition to what has been stated throughout this thread)

Let's think who are the saints?

According to Fathers of the Church, the number of the saints starts with the Prophets. Who gave such an honor to them? God Himself, as we know from the OT - which is the earliest supporting evidence of that honor, and since we should imitate God we need to give them honor also.

Also the righteous after departing went to the "bosom of Abraham" ( named after one of the very first and most distinguished saint of the OT) waiting for Christ's incarnation. Another major evidence is the genealogy of Christ in the Bible. Not only God chose the seed of the righteous for the Incarnation, but also Holy Spirit inspires that Christ's genealogy may be included in the Bible - this is the best indication of the honor due to saints always for the greater glory of our God.

We can also think of prayers such as that of Elisha when Elijah was being taken up (and the latter left his cloak behind) etc. We must remember that saints are not dead. They are very much alive; and in whatever dimension they exist they transcend the usual barriers that us spiritual commoners may come upon.

By the way recently some of my favorite saints have been celebrating. Of course the well-known ones like St. Chrysostom, St. Andreas, St. Gregory Palamas, St Katherina, etc. however also some that are so precious but not so well known in our days like St. Stylianos, St. Barbara, St. James the Persian, St. Philaret the Merciful (ah! if you have the chance to read an extended version of his life, by all means do it since it is a treasure like his merciful heart - the lives of all saints are extremely beautiful).

Nina

05-12-2007, 12:11 AM

We can also think of prayers such as that of Elisha when Elijah was being taken up (and the latter left his cloak behind) etc. We must remember that saints are not dead. They are very much alive; and in whatever dimension they exist they transcend the usual barriers that us spiritual commoners may come upon.

P.S In Orthodoxy we have walking saints. We have many. One of them is St. Nicholas, the other one is St. Spyridon (OMG I love both of these saints so much that I can not even express it - but of course I am a disgrace to them with my sins).

Both these saints were friends and one resides in Bari and the other one in Kerkyra (Corfu). They also celebrate just one week apart from each other now in December!!! :) I have heard so many stories from grandparents and others about these saints' miracles and people actually seeing them walking over water etc. that those stories can fill up a thread and are as normal as the air we breath in those areas. They change the slippers of St. Spyridon yearly because they get worn from his walking. And once they tried to change his hat but they found it folded the next morning near his relics and the saint had the old hat on. Most know St. Nicholas but his story is so worthy to read especially these days, and of course St. Spyridon's story is beautiful and less known.

M.C. Steenberg

05-12-2007, 01:18 AM

Dear Nina,

While it has been interesting you read your two posts here on the saints, I don't think they really speak to the questions Shawn was asking, which is in particular about the questions of prayer and relation to the departed.

But interesting, all the same.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Nina

05-12-2007, 02:34 PM

Well, I know that my contributions are not valuable, but nonetheless, when Shawn asks this:

Originally Posted by Shawn Lazar http://www.monachos.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=54602#post54602)

So my question would remain, what is the earliest historical example of a prayer to a saint, with the expectation that the saint being prayed to can somehow help the person doing the praying?

I ask, of course, hoping that there will be a very early example, so that I can be reassured that the theology of saintly intercession is a genuine part of Apostolic (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Apostle) Tradition, and not something that developed out of a synthesis of pagan culture and the Christian cult of the saints.

I tried to say this:

According to Fathers of the Church, the number of the saints starts with the Prophets. Who gave such an honor to them? God Himself, as we know from the OT - which is the earliest supporting evidence of that honor, and since we should imitate God we need to give them honor also.

Also the righteous after departing went to the "bosom of Abraham" ( named after one of the very first and most distinguished saint of the OT) waiting for Christ's incarnation. Another major evidence is the genealogy of Christ in the Bible. Not only God chose the seed of the righteous for the Incarnation, but also Holy Spirit inspires that Christ's genealogy may be included in the Bible - this is the best indication of the honor due to saints always for the greater glory of our God.

We can also think of prayers such as that of Elisha when Elijah was being taken up (and the latter left his cloak behind) etc. We must remember that saints are not dead. They are very much alive; and in whatever dimension they exist they transcend the usual barriers that us spiritual commoners may come upon.

I guess I need to resort to bold for the sentences that really relate. But please do not mind me because when the talk is about saints, I can not refrain from getting happy and I can not focus.

But the bottom line is that the earliest historical examples about prayers to saints may be found in the OT. And it is not simply an adopted custom from paganism intertwined with a phenomenon from Christianity.

I do not have the necessary time at the moment for elaborating, but if the question is still unanswered, when I have some time I can provide more.

Rick H.

05-12-2007, 02:50 PM

Dear All,

I am learning quite a bit in this thread. Shawn is asking questions that I have had as it relates to this subject and the Apostolic Tradition of the New Testament Church. I appreciate very much the contributions from the Old Testament and the inter-testamental reference, as well as the sharing about the catacombs. And, I also appreciate the verses that Richard quoted that speak to him.

However, as I find myself personally wrestling with this topic now, I am still wondering what early and clear examples we have from possibly the Apostolic Fathers, or the early Orthodox writings of the Fathers and Saints?

1.) Do the Apostolic Fathers speak directly to this, or are they mute on this subject?

2.) What is one early example from a Church Father or Saint that speaks directly to this topic?

In Christ,
Rick

Nina

05-12-2007, 05:12 PM

Dear All

1.) Do the Apostolic Fathers speak directly to this, or are they mute on this subject?

2.) What is one early example from a Church Father or Saint that speaks directly to this topic?

In Christ,
Rick

There is another thread (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1690&highlight=george+bebis)that deals with the same issue.

The fact that Christians ask the prayers of saints and their intercession is prefigured in the New Testament. St. Paul asks the Christian Ephesians, Thessalonians, Colossians and Romans to pray for him (Ephes. 6:19, 1 Thesal. 5:25; Colos. 4:3, and Rom. 15:30-31 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Rom.+15%3A30-31)).

The above quote is from an article. More info here (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=44477&postcount=27). This article has sufficient supporting evidence.

Before understanding the issue we need to keep in mind who the righteous and saints are throughout times. In NT times Christians called each other saint since they lived according to the teachings of God. In the OT saints were all the righteous. We can not dismiss these facts. Without accepting them we can not make a transition. This is called faith for a reason.

Here is also a quote from the same thread.

By St. John of Kronstadt

Acknowledge that all the saints are our elder brothers in the one House of the Heavenly Father, who have departed from earth to heaven (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Heaven), and they are always with us in God, and they constantly teach us and guide us to eternal (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Eternity) life by means of the church services, Mysteries, rites, instructions, and church decrees, which they have composed—as for example, those concerning the fasts (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Fast) and feasts (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Feast)—, so to speak, they serve together with us, they sing, they speak, they instruct, they help us in various temptations and sorrows. And call upon them as living with you under a single roof; glorify them, thank them, converse with them as with living people; and you will believe in the Church.

Nina

05-12-2007, 05:28 PM

Also another Father stresses that saints are not dead:

"The Saints in their lifetime already were filled with the Holy Spirit," continues St. John of Damascus, "and when they died the grace of the Holy Spirit was still present with their souls and with their bodies in the graves, and with their images and with their holy ikons not because of their nature but because of grace and its activity... the saints are alive and with daring they stand before the Lord; they are not dead ... the death of saints is more like falling asleep than death," for they "abide in the hand of God"; that is, in life and in light... and 11 after He Who is Life itself and the source of life was ranked among the dead, we consider no more as dead those who depart with a hope of resurrection and with faith in Him." Article (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/florov_veneration.aspx)

More sources (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/gen_veneration.aspx)for studying.

Rick H.

05-12-2007, 08:04 PM

Early Examples from the Treasury?

Dear All,

Possibly, I need to be more clear about the question at hand, as Shawn has asked, and I have echoed the request for early examples, and specifically ones that demonstrate the prayer to/communion with the particular saint . . .

. . . with the expectation that the saint being prayed to can somehow help the person doing the praying?

I don't think it is a question of whether saints are dead or not here, and while I appreciate the quote by St. John of Kronstadt, I have him dated in the early 1900's.

So, knowing the Apostolic Fathers include a small collection of writers from the 1st and 2nd centuries, I'll throw out a line one more time with this clarified request:

1.) Do the Apostolic (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Apostle) Fathers speak directly to this, or are they mute on this subject?

2.) What is one early example from a Church (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Church) Father or Saint that speaks directly to this topic (viz. "with the expectation that the saint being prayed to can somehow help the person doing the praying?")

In Christ,
Rick

M.C. Steenberg

05-12-2007, 08:30 PM

I'm not certain how much more can be provided than already has. You may need to dig into the texts to explore further yourself!

In previous posts, various early sources have been cited (this includes a number of references cited in posts by me (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=54572&postcount=22), another by me (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=54622&postcount=30), and by Anthony (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=54623&postcount=31)). The references in those posts give citations from writings in, variously, the second century BC, the and in AD the first, second, fourth, fifth and sixth centuries. As to the request: 'What is one early example from a Church Father or Saint that speaks directly to this topic (viz. "with the expectation that the saint being prayed to can somehow help the person doing the praying?")', I think this has been rather fully answered in these references (though I am certain there are many more to be had).

As to the particular question of the apostolic fathers: I cannot think of a specific text in their writings that speak to this. But then, the apostolic fathers don't speak directly of a great number of things. It would of course be a great fallacy to think that if one doesn't see it in the corpus of this small handful of men, it isn't present in the early Church!

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Rick H.

05-12-2007, 09:03 PM

Thanks for answering the first question when you say:

As to the particular question of the apostolic fathers: I cannot think of a specific text in their writings that speak to this.

However, after rereading the posts you cited #22, #30, & #31, these speak to the commemoration of the dead very well, but not to the question/request for examples of an Early New Testament Father or Saint speaking directly to the topic of prayer to a saint with the expectation of help! As I have asked:

What is one early example from a Church Father or Saint that speaks directly to this topic (viz. "with the expectation that the saint being prayed to can somehow help the person doing the praying?")

This is not a question about commemorating the dead.

I have acknowledged [above] my gratitude for the Hebrew Testament references and the inter--testamental reference and the commentary of the catacombs provided by you and Anthony. But, these do not address the question at hand at all as it is asked. I'm not sure how it can be asked any more clearly.

If there is an example of this here in this thread somewhere then I would appreciate some help locating it, otherwise it appears that both of the questions that I have posed are being answered in the negative at the present.

In Christ,
Rick

M.C. Steenberg

05-12-2007, 09:15 PM

However, after rereading the posts you cited #22, #30, & #31, these speak to the commemoration of the dead very well, but not to the question/request for examples of a New Testament Father or Saint speaking directly to the topic of prayer to a saint with the expectation of help! As I have asked:

What is one early example from a Church Father or Saint that speaks directly to this topic (viz. "with the expectation that the saint being prayed to can somehow help the person doing the praying?")

To which:

As per my last post, there are inscriptions in the catacombs, dating from the first and second centuries, that petition the departed to pray for the world. And by the time one gets to the high conciliar age (3rd and 4th centuries AD), the practice of asking intercession is so common that it will form a standard part of funeral orations.

And:

Hundreds of pilgrims, buried in the Memoria of the ancient Appian Way (the Catacombs of St. Sebastian), invoke Peter and Paul, by scratching short prayers on the plaster of the triclia (hall for funeral banquets, in the open air): "Paul and Peter, pray for Victor - Paul,Peter, pray for Sozomenon".

And:

At the entrance of the Crypt of the Popes in St. Callixtus, the wall is covered with prayers: "O St. Sixtus, remember in your prayers Aurelius Repentinus" "Holy Spirits, p(ray that) Verecundus may be safe at sea with his dear ones".

Unless I am missing something in your question, these are responses relating specifically to the query you've asked: they are passages from sources in the NT period that specifically implore the dead to pray for the one offering the request, with the expectation that they will.

In what sense are these not examples of the kind for which you are looking?

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Rick H.

05-12-2007, 09:29 PM

In what sense are these not examples of the kind for which you are looking?

The inscriptions in the catacombs, as well as the other scriptural references, and your commentary on prayer/communion with the saints is very good/helpful (great evidence). But, in an attempt to trace the History of Christian Thought in this area (like others), I am searching for specific Orthodox Christian authors from the earliest period who have written specifically in this area.

We have established that there is no evidence to be found in the Apostolic Fathers, now I am wondering where we first have writing theologians addressing this issue from an historic Orthodox position, namely Fathers and Saints that we can cite. Possibly, the answer to this quest is found in the same answer as given for the lack of evidence in the Apostolic Fathers.

Thanks for your time, it is greatly appreciated.

In Christ,
Rick

M.C. Steenberg

05-12-2007, 09:41 PM

Rick, I suppose I don't know what you mean by a 'specific Orthodox Christian writer' or 'theologian' in this regard? I would have presumed the early Christians inscribing the catacombs might have qualified for both. But you'll have to specify what specific kind of person you're looking for.

Tertullian, writing in the 2nd century, speaks the whole question extensively.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Rick H.

05-12-2007, 09:57 PM

A reference to a particular work by Tertullian would be perfect. Or, any others (the earlier the better) would be appreciated as a starting point.

In Christ,
Rick

M.C. Steenberg

05-12-2007, 10:01 PM

A reference to a particular work by Tertullian would be perfect. Or, any others (the earlier the better) would be appreciated as a starting point.

In Christ,
Rick

See here (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=54572&postcount=22) for several specific references in Tertullian, as already posted.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Rick H.

05-12-2007, 10:17 PM

When I click on the link that you have supplied, this is what I see regarding Tertullian:

The so-called 'Acts of John' records (c. AD 160) that liturgical commemorations of its era already made it the practice of commemorating the departed - a fact echoed in Hippolytus and Tertullian, the latter writing only a few decades after the Acta, in the latter second century AD. Tertullian, for his part, makes reference to private prayers for the dead (cf., for example, his De monogamia), and is the first Christian writer to speak so extensively about prayer for the dead (e.g. at De exhortatione castitatis, 11; De anima, 8; De monogamia, 10; De corona, 3). It is noteworthy that in these comments, Tertullian speaks of prayer for the dead as the commonplace practice in the Church.

This seems again to be limited to prayers for the dead, or commemoration of the dead, or praying to God for the souls of the departed.

Maybe it is time for a latte break :), but I can't see how this relates to prayer to a departed saint for the purpose--with the expectation--of obtaining intercession or in some way help from the departed saint.

I apologize if I am out in left field here, maybe I am having a language problem, but I don't think I am. It's late afternoon here, I'll go and grind some beans and see if you still have time for this when I get back.

Thank you.

In Christ,
Rick

Nina

05-12-2007, 10:28 PM

Rick,

Again, as mentioned above - here is the article from Dr. Bebis (http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8044.asp). He explicitly enlists many authors and texts which according to your inquiry, interest you:

Throughout early Christianity, Christians customarily met in the places where the martyrs had died, to build churches in their honor, venerate their relics and memory, and present their example for imitation by others. Interesting information on this subject derives from the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (gopher://ccat.sas.upenn.edu:3333/00/Religious/ChurchWriters/ApostolicFathers/Martyrdom_Polycarp) (ch. 17-18), according to which the early Christians reverently collected the remains of the saints and honored them "more than precious stones." They also met on the day of their death to commemorate "their new birthday, the day they entered into their new life, in Heaven." To this day the Orthodox have maintained the liturgical custom of meeting on the day of the saint's death, of building churches honoring their names, and of paying special respect to their relics and icons. The Seventh Ecumenical (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Ecumenical) Council (787 A.D.), in summarizing this practice of the Church, declares that "we adore and respect God our Lord; and those who have been genuine servants of our common Lord we honor and venerate because they have the power to make us friends with God the King of all."

The feast (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Feast) days and the celebrations honoring the saints had become a common practice by the fourth century. The twentieth canon (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Canon) of the Council of Gangra in Asia Minor (between the years 325 and 381) anathematizes (http://www.monachos.net/forum/../library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Anathema) those who reject the feast days of the saints. So great was the esteem in which the Apostles, prophets, and martyrs were held in the Church, that many writings appeared describing their spiritual achievements, love and devotion to God.

Together with the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (gopher://ccat.sas.upenn.edu:3333/00/Religious/ChurchWriters/ApostolicFathers/Martyrdom_Polycarp) , information on the veneration of the Saints derives from the Martyrdom of the Martyrs of Scilli, a small town in North Africa (end of the second century). The list of sources indudes St. Athanasius' Life of St. Anthony (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/NPNF2-04/c10.1.htm); St. Basil's Homily (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Homily) honoring the "Forty Martyrs"; Gregory of Nyssa's Homily honoring St. Theodore; St. John Chrysostom also delivered a considerable number of sermons dedicated to the Martyrs of the Church.

The Fathers, and all early Christians in general, paid especially great respect to the relics of the martyrs. In addition to the sources already mentioned, Eusebius of Caesarea (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/), the Church historian, says that "those who suffered for the glory of Christ always have fellowship with the living God" (Church History, 5:1). In the Apostolic Constitutions (5:1) the martyrs are called "brothers of the Lord" and "vessels of the Holy Spirit." This helps to explains the special honor and respect which the Church paid to the relics of the martyrs. St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Cyril of Jerusalem (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/), and St. John Chrysostom (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/) remind us that the relics of the martyrs "are filled with spiritual grace," that even their tombs are filled with a special "blessing." This Patristic practice still continues today, and people from all over the world visit churches that possess the relics of martyrs and saints. Also, according to the ancient tradition, the consecration of new churches takes place with the deposition of holy relics in the Holy Table of the sanctuary."

M.C. Steenberg

05-12-2007, 10:50 PM

Before going further, I should note a couple of things:

First, just as a technical point, in Orthodox understandings 2 Maccabees is not 'inter-testamental', as it is a book of the Old Testament and fits squarely in that textual body and time period. This is, I realise, a tangental point to the main conversation - but it is important. The evidence of 2 Maccabeess is, for Orthodox, solid scriptural testimony for intercessory prayer.

Second, I am unhappy with the distinction between the witness of such as the martyrs and faithful of the first century, and an amorphous title of 'Orthodox writers' or 'theologians' of the early Church. If one seeks the authetic practice and belief of the early Church, one must look at the full testimony; and indeed, in some sense the inscriptions of tombs and places of prayer give a better, or at least a fuller, picture of common belief in the period -- not the writings of simply one or another person, but the accepted practice of the community. In this regard, the inscriptions of the catacombs are clear, definitive evidence of belief both in intercessory prayer in general, and of intercessions asked of the departed in particular (hence, again: 'Paul and Peter, pray for Victor - Paul, Peter, pray for Sozomenon'; 'O St Sixtus, remember in your prayers Aurelius Repentinus'; 'Holy Spirits, p[ray that] Verecundus may be safe at sea with his dear ones'. These are all clear examples of intercession for the prayers of another - and they are asking the prayers of individuals who are dead at the time of asking).

As to specific texts elsewhere in the early corpus: Well, one must actually go and read the passages that have been already indicated! But in addition to these:
From the Shepherd of Hermas: '"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80])

Origen of Alexandria: 'But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep' (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233])

From the epitaph of Pectorius: 'Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]' (Epitaph [A.D. 250])

Cyril of Jerusalem: 'Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition' (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350])
These are just a few more to augment the citations already given earlier in the thread. Of course, there is direct (if symbolic) testimony of the same in the book of Revelation, where the martyrs offer incense at the throne of God in heaven - with the incense specifically indicated as the prayers of the saints on earth; in other words, the departed martyrs present the petitions of the Church to God.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Rick H.

05-12-2007, 11:02 PM

Thank you for your help here today. I agree we need to look at the "full testimony" of Orthodox practice and belief which of course does not exclude the individual Orthodox writers such as the ones quoted so far (and below). And, as I read the link supplied by Nina above I found additional helpful material in the following:

In one of his letters, St. Basil (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/) explicitly writes that he accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks their prayers to God (Letter 360). Then, speaking about the Forty Martyrs, who suffered martyrdom for Christ, he emphasizes that "they are common friends of the human race, strong ambassadors and collaborators in fervent prayers" (Chapter 8). ]St. Gregory of Nyssa (http://www.ccel.org/fathers/) asks St. Theodore the Martyr "to fervently pray to our Common King, our God, for the country and the people" (Encomium to Martyr Theodore). The same language is used by St. Gregory the Theologian in his encomium to St. Cyprian (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/christian-history.html#Cyprian). St. John Chrysostom says that we should seek the intercession and the fervent prayers of the saints, because they have special "boldness" (parresia), before God. (Gen. 44:2 and Encomium to Julian, Iuventinus and Maximinus, 3).

which provides an ample amount of references to begin with, in order to look at the history of Christian thought (and practice) on this matter. Thanks again for your time.

In Christ,
Rick

RichardWorthington

06-12-2007, 12:45 PM

We can also think of prayers such as that of Elisha when Elijah was being taken up (and the latter left his cloak behind) etc.

This mention of Elijah reminded me of something an Orthodox friend of mine told me when I too was a catechumen and struggling with asking the saints to pray for us.

He quoted the passage from the gospel where some people thought Jesus was calling on Elijah when on the Cross:

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, "This Man is calling for Elijah!" Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink. The rest said, "Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to save Him." (Matthew 27:46-49)

He said that this showed that the Jews at that time were used to people calling upon the saints. At the time I was not convinced; it seemed as though you had to be already convinced of their intercessions to interpret this so. (Also as they were expecting Elijah to come - from heaven? - maybe this was an exception?)

What are your thoughts on this? I know this is slightly off-thread, not quite being Patristic, but I thought I would mention it.

Richard

Rick H.

06-12-2007, 04:12 PM

From: St. Basil Letter #360

"I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom may be made and given me for my sins."

Kosta

06-12-2007, 11:21 PM

The Martyrdom of Ignatius makes mention of such a belief. There is some controversy over its dating, but considering its an account of a heroic martyrdom, it probably was written during a time of persecution to give hope to a persecuted church. This is whats indirectly implied in chapter 1 of this writing, hence it would date to before the Edict of Milan in 313 ad.

scroll down to chapter 7:

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/LostBooks/ignatius_martyrdom.htm

M.C. Steenberg

08-12-2007, 10:59 AM

Dear Mr Richard, you wrote:

This mention of Elijah reminded me of something an Orthodox friend of mine told me when I too was a catechumen and struggling with asking the saints to pray for us.

He quoted the passage from the gospel where some people thought Jesus was calling on Elijah when on the Cross [...] He said that this showed that the Jews at that time were used to people calling upon the saints. At the time I was not convinced; it seemed as though you had to be already convinced of their intercessions to interpret this so. (Also as they were expecting Elijah to come - from heaven? - maybe this was an exception?)

This is an interesting thought - and a passage I've not considered in this manner before. My own personal reaction would be that this seems something of a 'stretch': the intention of the comment at the cross does seem to be built on ridicule rather reflect a belef in intercession on Elias' part. There was, yes, a belief that Elias would return - which cannot be wholly disconnected from the area of prayer and relation to the saints / departed (so there is some relevance) - but this seems to have meant for most that he would himself be back on earth, not that he would interact with the world from the Kingdom.

Just a thought; it is an interesting passage to raise in this context. Many thanks.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

M.C. Steenberg

08-12-2007, 11:50 AM

Dear all,

I've enjoyed very much the discussion of this thread. Moving back for a moment, out of the citation of specific examples of ancient intercessions of the departed, to the idea of prayer with and to others, there was originally a question 'Why invoke intercessors at all?' Perhaps a few thoughts again on this, having re-read much of the recent points that have risen out of it.

Much of the difficulty that some people have with the classification of 'intercessory prayer' is that it is understood as something quite different from 'normal prayer'; often seen as attached directly to the 'cult of the saints' in the way that 'normal prayer' is not, and related to traditions of reverence of the dead that are foreign to some.

The first step in understanding this properly has to be in breaking down this very false classification. In some sense, all prayer is intercessory. Even if it is prayer that, for some reason or another, involves no 'other' - e.g. a prayer to God for one's self - this is still intercessory. One asks God for mercy, love, guidance, peace, etc. One intercedes.

(I must segue just to say that there is, in fact, a highest form of prayer that is not directly intercessory in this way: the deepest prayer of the heart that does not pray in words, which does not 'ask' things of God in this manner. But the fathers are unequivocal in insisting that this prayer is, in fact, the highest form of intercession; a heart in communion with God on behalf of all the world.)

It would, in theory, be possible to stop intercession; but this would be to cease prayer altogether. If it is the concept of invoking intercession that troubles, one could attempt to eliminate 'St Anthony, pray to God for us'; but one would equally have to eliminate asking a loved one's prayer, 'Tom, pray for me: I'm not feeling well'. And similarly, to eliminate 'God, please heal my daughter'. And 'God, help me in my struggles.' All these are intercessions.

As I've mentioned before, it is not really intercession that bothers most people. Almost every Christian, of whatever tradition, is an active proponant of intercessory prayer: asking God to guide one's self, one's family and loved ones, the world; and asking loved ones to pray for one's self.

The issue is not the prayer. The issue is life, and where life exists. The ultimate fruit of sin is that it brought death; and the ultimate tragedy of death is that it defeats life. At the grave, life is crushed. One looked at the body and cried, like Jeremias: 'How lonely sits the city that was full of people! How like a widow is she, who was great among the nations!How lonely sits the city that was full of people! How like a widow is she, who was great among the nations!' The person, like Jerusalem, had been destroyed. The enemies have won. That one is gone; all that can be done is take solace among the living - among the not-dead-yet. Beyond that, maybe God will do something some day. Again, like Jeremias: 'Turn us back to you, O Lord, and we will be restored; renew our days as of old, unless you have utterly rejected us forever.'

But the Christian confession begins with the realisation that God has done something. Christ meets death, but meets it as immortal life. Life overcomes death, and death is detroyed. When Jesus rises from the death on the third day, it is not as a magical subversion of nature: it is nature's triumph over the perversion of nature. Death is destroyed: what could possibly hold him in the grave? He does not rise up as a sign; he rises because death has been destroyed. 'Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death.' He rises because there is nothing left to keep him parted. Death had won the day: life was defeated to bones and dust. But the victor is conquered in Christ. This is precisely why the Church proclaims that resurrection first of all with the words of Ezekiel:
The Lord said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.'" So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a very great assembly. Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.'
The first image of Pascha is of death being conquered. Dead bones rise back to life. 'Our hope is gone': but hope has been restored, and been realised. The 'dead', the 'gone', are present - 'a very great assembly'.

This is at the very heart of the Christian message. Life exists in Christ, and in Christ, death does not bring life to an end. So the communion of the living, in Christ, is not broken by the death of this world, which Christ has already defeated and which, to use the worlds of St Paul, 'has no sting'.

This is the issue at the centre of prayer. Everyone intercedes. The question is not 'why invoke intercessors at all?', because this is the same as asking 'why pray at all?' One prays because one is commanded to pray; because one is offered prayer in Christ. The real question is 'With whom will we intercede and ask intercession?' And that ultimately returns one to the question of life - where it exists, where it does not. To insist that the relationship of prayer can exist only amongst the living, is fundamentally a rejection of the truth and power of the resurrection. It is to insist that 'those dry bones are just dead' - and so how or why to ask of them a prayer?

But if the resurrection is true, if death is truly defeated, if life truly reigns over all obstacles, if Christ is to be taken seriously at all - then the first result is that his resurrection transforms our understandings of life and death. One prays with the departed saints, one asks their intercessions in prayer, not because of some strange category of being or classification of roles, but because they are still alive. The prayer that we would show no hesitation offering for them, or asking of them, were they present in our next room, is precisely the prayer we continue to offer when they are no longer present in this same way. Relationship has changed; it has not ended.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Rick H.

10-12-2007, 02:10 PM

Dear All,

As said above:

. . . there was originally a question 'Why invoke intercessors at all?'

and by way of clarification, for some of us who come from traditions where reverence of the dead is completely foreign, this question is heard and means:

Why would anyone want to pray to any other than God?

Or, in other words:

Why would anyone seek heavenly intercession/intervention (from the departed) in their life, or in the life of others, by means other than an appeal through the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God?

This is an honest and heartfelt question not meant to provoke; but, to attempt to learn, to understand. In some ways as Dave has said:

Being new to Orthodoxy (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Orthodoxy) -- is this just one of those "Tradition things" that are just as valid as scripture? I don't quite have the mindset yet, but I'm working on it!

and as John Charmley has replied:

Are the two types of prayer incompatible?

It seems to be they both have a long history within the Church (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Church) and scriptural warrant; what more do we want or need?

We are dealing with both a mindset/way of knowing and Church history/practice, both theory and practice. I think the mindset has been shared very clearly here and we are starting to uncover some of the historical warrant as well.

Whereby, in this sense, this question [asked from this perspective, relating to asking intercession of the departed] is not:

. . . 'why invoke intercessors at all?'

but, it really is 'to whom shall we ask heavenly intercession?' As Deacon Matthew has suggested, we all ask intercession from those we know at times. We may ask "Tom" or our relatives or friends to pray for us, folks that are living--folks that we know. We clearly see this in the Holy Scriptures, this is not questioned by any. This does not require much research to understand why this is a part of our tradition, why we do this.

We invoke intercession from those we know. And, as we consider the words of our Lord Jesus Christ who said that on that day, there will be those who say Lord, Lord, but He will reply, I never knew you, depart from me, we see that it is critical to have a genuine relationship with the one we petition to avoid a place of illusion--to avoid being under the illusion that all is well. So yes, to whom (positionally/relationally) really is the question, and a consideration of a genuine relationship/communion with the person we pray/petition with help is vital. Otherwise, we seek aid/help and communion where none exists, we are involved in pretense, we are deceived and or efforts are in vain.

In Christ,
Rick

Herman Blaydoe

10-12-2007, 02:47 PM

I suspect there is a possibility of confusion here.

Pray is certainly a "loaded" word. When all else is said and done, it simply means to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.

Do you disagree? Pray tell! In archaic use, it simply means to petition. I think we get the idea of "prayer" confused with "worship" which is also a form of prayer as we often use the word. We do not worship the saints, but we can certainly petition the saints to petition the Lord on our behalf, even as the Apostle James tells us that the petition of a righteous man is of great effect and that we are to petition on each other's behalf. How could this possibly be wrong? I pray you to explain this to this bear of little brain!

Herman the Pooh

Rick H.

10-12-2007, 02:57 PM

Dear Pooh,

Someone is in good form this morning :) I'm trying to use the language that is used here in this thread. The prayer/communion contributions that Deacon Matthew has written are very helpful here with our topic. But, in the end, these things called words really do seem to get in the way, just as they have for centuries I think. Hopefully, the point(s) in my last post can still be gleaned though.

Carry on sir.

In Christ,
Rick

Herman Blaydoe

10-12-2007, 03:35 PM

We invoke intercession from those we know.

While this certainly seems like an obviously good idea, is it a universal thing? Do we never or should we never ask help from someone we do not have a "genuine relationship" with? What is a "genuine relationship"? Is it impossible to have a "genuine relationship" with a saint? Is it possible for one declared a saint by the Church, that is, one who stands in the presence and favor of the Lord to be met with "I never knew you"? Are we so sure that those we have a "genuine relationship" with and ask for prayers are not in for a similar fate? Are we able to know who will and won't find favor in the Lord? Should I simply not pray for those who ask me to because I know what a sinner I am?

Is it so hard to trust the witness of the Church?

Do we HAVE to pray to the saints? We don't HAVE to do anything we are not willing to do. If you choose not to pray to a certain saint or to any saint, but to Christ alone, do you do wrong? I suspect not, but I also suspect you simply choose to not avail yourself of an incredible resource, if we trust that what the Church tells us is true. And if we do not trust the Church, what in the world are we doing here?

Be that as it may, I think we can "avoid being under the illusion that all is well". Praying to the saints is no more a "guarantee" that what we want will happen any more than praying directly to Christ will give us what we ask for, if we remember that He will give us what we need, not necessarily what we want. That is like saying "I accept Jesus as my personal savior" at a Protestant altar call and then being under the illusion that "all is well".

Please forgive all these questions from this bear of little brain and my inability to understand the point here I guess.

Oh bother.

Herman the Pooh

Rick H.

10-12-2007, 04:42 PM

Dear Herman the Pooh,

Nothing to forgive here, you are tracking right along, spot on. In fact, as you have mentioned the Protestant alter call as it relates to the phrase, 'under the illusion that all is well,' this is the only way I have linked this phrase in the past as it relates to "a real life in the Spirit of Christ" (as said by St. Theophan) . . . until now.

And, as you say:

Do we HAVE to pray to the saints? We don't HAVE to do anything we are not willing to do. If you choose not to pray to a certain saint or to any saint, but to Christ alone, do you do wrong? I suspect not, but I also suspect you simply choose to not avail yourself of an incredible resource, if we trust that what the Church tells us is true.

which is followed by:

And if we do not trust the Church, what in the world are we doing here?

You again show how in touch with our topic you are. But, knowing we are not all at the same place on the Path, I'm not so sure how dogmatic we would want to be on your follow-up point as it relates to this topic, veneration of relics, or others. I'm not sure that we can be dogmatic on these points which you have attempted to overlap as it relates to the teaching by Fr. Jack Sparks, for example, which can be summarized as "each as is appropriate for oneself" (if you remember past conversations on this, or have read his 'Victory' series).

Do you see what I mean. When one who is new in the faith like the originator of this thread, Dave, who is asking "Why invoke intercessors at all?" . . . I'm not sure what role your follow up question plays.

Also, I would just like to close here by mentioning I think the questions that you ask in your opening paragraph of you last post also demonstrate why it is possibly not the best idea to compare asking intercessory prayer from friends and relatives of the 'living' with intercessory prayer from the departed saints. It can be helpful as Deacon Matthew has done this, but you can only go so far with this before the comparison breaks down and becomes a point of confusion.

But, then again, and knowing that you, Deacon Matthew, and even I 'speak for Orthodoxy' I wonder if it isn't a better approach to allow more room for the recorded witness of the Church as we consider this topic in this thread. Although, I would never lobby against using reason (because faith has its reasons) . . . I am persuaded along the line as you have shared that the witness of the Church should be very influential. And, it is in my case. But, it seems to be like pulling hen's teeth to lay out this witness from the early days. When I look at some of the practices in the Roman Catholic Church for example, there is so much material available that you can see what and when and trace their practices with little effort. I've been at this for over a week now and I have barely a hand full of individual citations (along with the catacomb articles). In fact, if Nina wouldn't have supplied three of them last week, I'd have pretty 'slim pickins' now for the first 300-400 years. This doesn't make any sense to me at the present.

But, then again, there are more than a few mentions here by the posters that we might be missing something or not fully understanding what the other is saying, so I must allow much room for this, as I even join this club now.

But, I guess we will see brother bear--I do know that I am grateful for this thread. It is forcing me to deal with this topic which I have not in the past. Or, maybe we should just lighten up for the holidays and start a thread with our favorite Groucho Marx quotes? ;)

In Christ,
Rick

Herman Blaydoe

10-12-2007, 06:16 PM

is one of my favorite western movie stars, an incredibly versatile actor (in a limited sort of way ;)).

But the mere paucity of evidence should not come as a surprise. Those first few centuries of the Church were a tad tumultuous. So much was destroyed in the persecutions. I think it amazing that we have any evidence at all surviving those troubled times.

Can anyone prove that veneration of the saints and asking intercessions of the saints was a "late" addition to the deposit of the Faith? Methinks the evidence provided by Nina and others at least indicates otherwise. While not a universal teaching of Judaism, the Pharisees are certainly witness that the belief in Resurrection was an early Tradition.

Christ Himself tells us the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. In this example, we actually see the rich man INTERCEDING on behalf of his brothers. While he was rebuked, it was not for interceding per se, it was what he asked for specifically. In that he is obviously not a saint, the fact that he was turned down is not evidence that intercessory prayer is a priori wrong. But it is interesting nonetheless. And as Deacon Matthew has so well stated, if we are UNITED in Christ, and death is defeated, why is "death" a barrier to "genuine relationship"? That is the one thing I cannot wrap my little brain around.

Nicolaj

10-12-2007, 06:45 PM

In the pod casts of Our life in Christ there have been a series on intercession which was very good as all as the material they put up!

They also bring up the Fathers and the quotations from the Scriptures.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

Rick H.

11-12-2007, 12:12 AM

Dear Nicolaj,

Would you have a link for the series on intercession by any chance?

Thank you.

In Christ,
Rick

Mary

11-12-2007, 01:33 AM

Dear Nicolaj,

Would you have a link for the series on intercession by any chance?

Thank you.

In Christ,
Rick

Hi Rick,

go to www.ourlifeinchrist.com (http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com) and you'll find the links to the mp3 files on the archives page. The series on saints is almost at the bottom of the page, starting from Jan 23, 2005. Best to download it first and then listen, so it doesn't keep breaking up. I think you can also find them at Ancient Faith Radio, under their list of podcasts. Not sure how far back you'll have to go to find the series on saints. But from ancient faith Radio, you dont' have to download it, you can listen to it straight, it seems to work pretty well most of the time.

And the Jews, do pray to the prophets. I thought I'd written about it to someone, but I didn't. I must've just been talking about it! Bummer. We were at a bar mitzvah for my husband's nephew earlier this year, and I was fascinated by their prayer book. Didn't find the pages with Psalms in them, but there were many other daily prayers, also pointing to the coming of Christ, and that were perfectly fulfilled in Christ! It was in one of those, that I found a prayer to the Prophet Elias, because they believe that he will herald the coming of the messiah!

They also carried the Torah around, at one part of the service, and everyone touched it and kissed it, bowed before it, etc. And, of course, the way they chanted, sounded almost identical to the chanting I heard at the Antiochian church.

In Christ,
Mary.

Rick H.

11-12-2007, 04:16 PM

Hi Mary,

Thanks a lot this is great!

In Christ,
Rick

RichardWorthington

10-01-2008, 08:19 PM

I know this is opening up an old-ish thread with not particularly relevant material, but I find it useful!

I was reading the Book of Enoch (1 Enoch) and found there a passage where the archangels say to each other:

And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High."
Chapter 9 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe012.htm); although later in the chapter it also mentions the souls of those who have died making suit to the angels

The thing about 1 Enoch is that it is directly named and quoted in the NT, Jude 14-15 quoting 1 Enoch 1:9 (see also wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Enoch#Canonicity)). While I agree with Fr Dcn Matthew about the 'apocrypha' not being apocrypha in Orthodoxy, yet the Protestants who reject the intercession of the saints also reject the apocrypha. That is why I was interested in this: St Jude obviously ascribed to this book some notable authority (maybe or maybe not as 'scripture'), and so therefore could hardly have been against such intercession! (If he thought it was heretical to invoke heavenly intercessors then he would not have quoted from the book.)

As to why invoke the heavenly host: love!! Why not invoke them - we are all in Christ, even if we are still imperfectly in Him. Have no fear of being separated from God or Christ, or of having their love diminished. In view of this, I will soon post some Catholic prayers to Mary I found in Malta - I found them particularly unOrthodox, at least to my view of Orthodoxy. It can be good to acknowledge when something has gone amiss so that the genuine thing is not thrown away as well.

Richard