Who was the first woman to worship Jesus Christ?

[Olympiada]

As you know women and Jesus Christ have been on my mind. I was wondering who was the first woman to worship Jesus Christ and where in the Bible her story was told? Thanks.
Olympiada

[Bratislav]

As you know women and Jesus Christ have been on my mind. I was wondering who was the first woman to worship Jesus Christ and where in the Bible her story was told? Thanks.
Olympiada

Olympiada, my sister in Christ,

I would suggest that the Theotokos worshipped Her Son the moment He was concieved within Her. Elizabeth, the cousin of the Theotokos, is probably the second woman to do so as described in the first chapter of Luke's gospel.

Your servant in XC,
Bratislav

[Herman Blaydoe]

Besides the Theotokos herself, I'm guess that would be St. Elizabeth, mother of St. John the Baptist. Even the prenatal St. John recognized the Lord's Divinity and lept in her womb to communicate his joy to her. Her recogniztion of the Theotokos and her Son seems to make her the first, but that would simply be my opinion. See Luke 1:38-45

[Olympiada]

Forgive me my dearly beloved brothers in Christ for my lack of clarity. I meant who was the first woman to adore Jesus Christ when he began his ministry at the age of 30 as a young man?

[Kosta]

Forgive me my dearly beloved brothers in Christ for my lack of clarity. I meant who was the first woman to adore Jesus Christ when he began his ministry at the age of 30 as a young man?


I guess the midwife who delivered Jesus, as recorded in the apocryphal Protoevangelium of James isnt what your looking for.

Most likely it was Peter's monther-in-law whom Jesus healed of fever (Mark 1.30). If not, then it was St Photini (Jn 4.7-25)

[Herman Blaydoe]

I do not think there is any Tradition or Scripture that specifically calls this out. I do think that Luke mentions the Prophetess Anna who was at the Temple when our Lord was presented there. She could be said to be the first to worship Him after His birth. As to his ministry, we aren't given many facts other than it started after His baptism and the detailing of the calling of his Apostles. In that the revelation that He was the Son of God and Divine was a rather gradual process, a specific time or person would be very difficult to pinpoint.

[Marie-Duquette]

Forgive me my dearly beloved brothers in Christ for my lack of clarity. I meant who was the first woman to adore Jesus Christ when he began his ministry at the age of 30 as a young man?

Dear Olympiada,

In response to your question concerning the "first woman" to worship Jesus Christ at the start of His public ministry:

... according to the Scripture rendition of the Wedding at Cana, Mary the Mother of Jesus called Him out to begin His ministry, even if He himself stated that His time had not yet come. And He did call her "Woman" at this incident "Woman, what is this to you. my time has not yet come" ... She, Mary just simply went ahead and told the servants, "Do all that He will tell you!"

Mary's great faith -- belief in the words of Gabriel that she carried in her heart from the time of the Annunciation, that Her Son was the Son of God, to be worshipped as such! ... His public ministry now opened, through Mary's trust that God's Word Incarnate, now made manifest through the changing of water into wine, this Word-made-flesh in Jesus the Christ, now needed to be recognized and worshipped not only by herself, but by all who would come in contact with Him.

ref. John 2:1-12

p.s. Jesus had already been pointed out by John the Baptist: John 1:19-34

Jesus had already chosen a few disciples:
John 1:35-51

So, in John 2:1-12 the "first sign" performed by Jesus through the request of His already believing Mother, awakened "belief" in the disciples and those who attended this event.

She, Mary, the Woman, was indeed the first to publickly recognize the divine in Jesus, and thus was the first to publically worship Him.

marie_duquette

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

I think it is also important that we remember that the accounts in the Gospels, particularly the three synoptics, give us a focussed portrait of Jesus' life at a certain stage; but I would question whether the specific teaching of the period they recount warrants dividing up a 'first woman worshipper' of that stage. Perhaps part of what is significant is in fact that Christ was worshipped by women, together with men, from the very beginning. It was women who first venerated him in his mother's womb (the Theotokos, Elizabeth), who occasioned his first miracle, who we the objects of much of his teaching and examples, who loved him to the extent of remaining with him at the cross, who first witnessed his resurrection.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Olga]

Pardon me for being blunt, but what does it matter if we know or don't know who was the first woman who worshipped Christ? Does it make any difference to our faith, in our relationship with Christ and the Holy Trinity, or to the salvation of our souls?

History and Church Tradition shows beyond question that various women were followers of Christ, as were the men mentioned (and not mentioned) by name in scripture and Tradition. History also records any number of female saints who were just as heroic in the steadfastness of their faith as the men. There is neither Jew, nor Greek, nor male or female, for we are all one in Christ. Finding admirable female "role models" among the saints is all very well, but it is worth considering the wider picture.

[John Mitchell]

It was his mother Mary's yes to God that un did the no of Eve, Then Elizabeth when she felt John leap within her, then all those that marveld at the shepards report, then Simeon and Anna, Perhaps no one though could have been as grateful as the hooker whose eathly and immortal life was saved when he kept her from being stoned.

[Rob Bergen]

The scriptures are very vague when it comes to women. I am sure that women followed Jesus just as the Disciples did, but, as we know, women were largely marginalized in society and in Christian Tradition. We can only go by what we know for a fact: the Theotokos, Elizabeth, Anna, Mary, Martha, and others who are shrouded in mystery and not necessarily named. I often have difficulty in understanding the deliberate omission of women from the Scriptures, and with the fact that women were so marginalized in history and tradition. I think that, with a lot of work, we can find the names of the women who were also disciples of Christ, as I am sure there were many.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Mr. Bergen, I don't think this is quite correct. In addition to Holy Scripture we have quite a bit of Holy Tradition that certainly illumines the actions of the women who followed Christ. That they are "marginalized" is a product of modern feminist mythology. The Theotokos is certainly not marginal, neither are the myrrh bearers, or Sts. Martha and Mary, who are important to more than one episode in Christ's life, We have many names and acts perhaps lost through neglect by others, such as St. Photini, who was the Samaritan woman at the well or the Magdaline, equal to the Apostles, who confronted the Roman Emperor and who through an egg witnessed to the Resurrection.

It does not take a lot of work for the Orthodox, we have the names and yes, they are many.

Herman the Pooh

[Olga]

I have long found it strange that strident feminists complain about the "marginalising" of women in Biblical history, when both the OT and NT are full of examples of women who showed great intelligence, courage, wisdom, and an ability to "step into the breach". Perhaps the most prominent example of this is that of the women who were witnesses to the Crucifixion, where all but one of Christ's male disciples had vanished in fear and possibly shame.

[Rob Bergen]

Correct, there are women in scripture and tradition. But, women are not given, save for the Theotokos, any primary roles. Is that because there were no women in primary roles? Perhaps there weren't, and I would understand that, coming out of a society where the women's realm was only the home. But, what bothers me most, is the lack of women in church leadership roles. Women were actually demonized for many hundreds of years, seen as the "reason for the fall of man." This is why women have become marginalized in tradition. Though, it is very true that the Orthodox Church has many female saints, but my impression is that people within the sphere of Christianity are still afraid of feminism, as if it were a scary and evil thing. Christians will often quote St. Paul, and many other fathers, to place women in a subordinate position to men. Feminism is the assumption that women are equal to men. Is there a reason why the early Christian Church has no mention of Female "mothers" or Theologians or apologists? This is largely a product of society, not anything that Christ taught us.

I am not saying women are not present, because they are, and indeed they must be present, but those that are mentioned are few, and are not in leadership roles. This, is what I see as a problem of equality. For me, The Incarnation was supposed to do away with boundaries in humanity. Christ chose to come and be made flesh and full man. This does not elevate only the men, this also elevates woman as well. Otherwise, only men would have been elevated. You see, Christ was, in theory, saving all of humanity. So why is it that women are barred from leadership roles other than the preservation of patriarchal tradition? I am sure that God does not advocate roles in gender, i.e. women must stay home and cook food, and men must work to support their families. This is a product of society.

I am interested in understanding more of the thought behind all this, perhaps we can create another thread?

[Herman Blaydoe]

Mr. Bergen, there are several threads on this issue already. Rather than go over the same old ground, I recommend that you become acquainted with the SEARCH feature. To get you started, I recommend the following threads:

Men, women, and equality in the Church
(http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?5428-Men-women-and-equality-in-the-Church)
Women and Leadership
(http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?2542-Women-and-leadership)

If you still have questions, then perhaps a new thread will indeed be appropriate.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Correct, there are women in scripture and tradition. But, women are not given, save for the Theotokos, any primary roles. Is that because there were no women in primary roles? Perhaps there weren't, and I would understand that, coming out of a society where the women's realm was only the home.

Don't confuse place (eg someone works at home, someone is a bishop, someone is a street cleaner or beggar, or construction worker) with position. This is exactly how ancient Roman and Greek society saw things so that one position was better and another worse according to ones place. However in Christ all are one. Even though some positions are more humble (and every position no matter how exalted is always to be humble in relation to some other when you see it correctly) all have their place in Christ.

In Christ-
Fr Raphael

[Herman Blaydoe]

Another interesting thread that helps to illumine an Orthodox idea of men and women can be found here:

Women and head coverings (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?1343-Women-and-head-coverings)

[Father David Moser]

Correct, there are women in scripture and tradition. But, women are not given, save for the Theotokos, any primary roles.

St Mary Magdalene - equal to the apostles
Not just St Mary, but all the Myrrhbearing women who were the first to proclaim the Resurrection
St Nina - equal to the apostles, enlightener of Georgia
St Thecla - equal to the apostles
St Tabitha (a leading figure in the Church in Joppa)
The Mother in law of St Peter (her house was the original Church in Capernaum)
St Olympiada the deaconess

Now these are just a few of the multitude of women saints (off the top of my head) mentioned in the Gospel or in the apostolic traditions. I chose not to mention a number of others, not because they weren't important, but rather because they were not in "leadership" roles (as were those above).

There are many other women throughout the ages that have been in "primary" roles in the life of the Church, from the multitude of women martyrs who served as examples for the men (in many cases it was the wife who converted the husband and then they both went to martrydom together - read the life of Sts Adrian and Natalie), to the monastics, to ordinary women whose children became saints thanks to the efforts and prayers of their mothers. How many spiritual fathers and great luminaries of the Church there are who sought the spiritual guidance and and help of women saints. St Zosima - an archimandrite and saint in his own right - fell on his face before St Mary of Egypt and would not rise until she had given him her blessing.

I think the claim that women were not in "primary" roles is based in either ignorance or in the advancement of a socio/political agenda. It is best to actually read the lives of saints and the history of the Church.

Fr David Moser

[Daniel R.]

Just to add to all the above posts, lets not forget that the many Orthodox Abbess.



Edit: I had a message saying it might be best to clarify and I agree I have left it to vague.

What I meant just as there were my prominent women in the past within the Church there are still leadership roles now within the Church such as that of Abbess of a monastery. So it is not true to say women are marginalised within the Church.

In Christ.
Daniel,

[Effie Ganatsios]

Correct, there are women in scripture and tradition. But, women are not given, save for the Theotokos, any primary roles. Is that because there were no women in primary roles? Perhaps there weren't, and I would understand that, coming out of a society where the women's realm was only the home. But, what bothers me most, is the lack of women in church leadership roles. Women were actually demonized for many hundreds of years, seen as the "reason for the fall of man." This is why women have become marginalized in tradition. Though, it is very true that the Orthodox Church has many female saints, but my impression is that people within the sphere of Christianity are still afraid of feminism, as if it were a scary and evil thing. Christians will often quote St. Paul, and many other fathers, to place women in a subordinate position to men. Feminism is the assumption that women are equal to men. Is there a reason why the early Christian Church has no mention of Female "mothers" or Theologians or apologists? This is largely a product of society, not anything that Christ taught us.

I am not saying women are not present, because they are, and indeed they must be present, but those that are mentioned are few, and are not in leadership roles. This, is what I see as a problem of equality. For me, The Incarnation was supposed to do away with boundaries in humanity. Christ chose to come and be made flesh and full man. This does not elevate only the men, this also elevates woman as well. Otherwise, only men would have been elevated. You see, Christ was, in theory, saving all of humanity. So why is it that women are barred from leadership roles other than the preservation of patriarchal tradition? I am sure that God does not advocate roles in gender, i.e. women must stay home and cook food, and men must work to support their families. This is a product of society.

I am interested in understanding more of the thought behind all this, perhaps we can create another thread?

Yes, Jesus loved women as much as He loved men. To Him there was no difference.


Galatians 3:28

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. "



The Theotokos, His mother, and many other women were with him on His various journeys. And Mary Magdalene was one of his most important friends, even helping to pay for the expenses of the group.

Luke 8:1-3
"After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means. "

We have a monastery outside our town. It is called St. Mary Magdalene and when I visited one day I saw a huge frescoe of this saint in Rome pleading for the Christians. I asked the Mother Superior on what they had based their information because I had never heard that Mary Magdalene had visited Rome, and she told me that the information was based on "old writings".

I have read that in the early centuries many women set up communities where they governed themselves but the men of the church felt that this was inappropriate for many reasons, one of which was the economical advantages these women had, and, at some point, broke up these communities.

I don't believe that it is important to know which particular woman first worshipped our Lord. Suffice to say that women were very important in Jesus' life and ministry. He loved and respected them. And certainly did not consider them inferior. We have many examples of this in the New Testament.



I believe, from what I have read that the role of women changed in the early years of the Church when the
hierarchy of clergy members with bishops etc. was established. Women were excluded.

Just one more point in answer to the above post : Women who take care of their families and homes are in no way inferior to men. They do not need to do the same job as their men to be equal. But, when needed, they are capable of supporting their family and raising their children, by working outside the home.

I absolutely agree with everything that Father Raphael wrote in his post no. 16.

[Herman Blaydoe]

We have a monastery outside our town. It is called St. Mary Magdalene and when I visited one day I saw a huge frescoe of this saint in Rome pleading for the Christians. I asked the Mother Superior on what they had based their information because I had never heard that Mary Magdalene had visited Rome, and she told me that the information was based on "old writings".

Are you not familiar with why we Orthodox have red eggs at Pascha? It is because of the story about St. Mary Magdalene confronting the Emperor in Rome. So yes, it has been a part of Orthodox tradition for a very long time.


I have read that in the early centuries many women set up communities where they governed themselves but the men of the church felt that this was inappropriate for many reasons, one of which was the economical advantages these women had, and, at some point, broke up these communities.

Do you have a source for this? When, where, and how this allegedly happened might have some bearing on what actually happened. I remember reading about some medieval women's guilds that were "shut down" due primarily to economic considerations, but I don't know about any Orthodox instances of such a thing happening.


I believe, from what I have read that the role of women changed in the early years of the Church when the hierarchy of clergy members with bishops etc. was established. Women were excluded.

Sorry Effie, but this is merely feminist propaganda. Please see the threads above where this is discussed in detail. I think you will find that this is simply not correct.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Are you not familiar with why we Orthodox have red eggs at Pascha? It is because of the story about St. Mary Magdalene confronting the Emperor in Rome. So yes, it has been a part of Orthodox tradition for a very long time.

Herman, my understanding was that the red eggs at Easter symbolized the blood of Christ.


Do you have a source for this? When, where, and how this allegedly happened might have some bearing on what actually happened. I remember reading about some medieval women's guilds that were "shut down" due primarily to economic considerations, but I don't know about any Orthodox instances of such a thing happening.

Herman, my reading is extensive and I do not remember where I read this. I was not referring to anything that happened in the Middle Ages but rather in early Christianity when we were all one.


Sorry Effie, but this is merely feminist propaganda. Please see the threads above where this is discussed in detail. I think you will find that this is simply not correct.

Herman, I don't really know what a feminist is (the term has been abused by just about everyone), but I will reread the messages on this thread and others to see if the information provided is based on actual events or not.

I hope my answers are clear and readable in the above text.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

"Moderation in thought and attitudes manifests itself to us also in flesh and blood, so that we can see in sober Orthodox men and women exactly what is wrong with our present intemperate thinking about men and women in "roles" dictated by their "natures." Where, indeed, are such thoughts in the tear-evoking sweetness of the encounter of the Elder Zossima with our wondrous Mother, Saint Mary of Egypt? Can one imagine the holy elder saying to himself, "Being a priest, I shall bless -this saint, for I am, by nature, worthy of that which she, by nature, is not"? God forbid! Rather, the holy elder fell before our beloved Mother and asked that she bless him. And could it be that the wondrous woman among God's saints said to herself, I will bless this man, since he, indeed, must know that I have a right to the priesthood"? Indeed, no. Which of us can forego tears thinking of what truly happened? Falling prostrate before the holy elder, St. Mary begged his forgiveness, the two remaining for some time thus prostrated before one another, each saying, "Eulogeite," or "Bless." As we all know, the Holy Mother, deferring to Father Zossima's priesthood, wished his blessing. And what a lesson to learn from the result. She cried out, "Blessed is our God, who watches over the salvation of souls and people." And the holy elder responded, "Amen."

"Shame, hence, to each of us who proclaims either the man or the woman superior, or pretends to know the proper role and nature of each. "

The above is from http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/women.aspx and is worth reading.

Some might also find this article enlightening. http://www.stnina.org/online-journal/feature-articles/newness-spirit-ordination-men-and-women.

And this is from Wikipedeia. I included this because I feel that perhaps Mr. Rob Bergen was asking about the current position of women in the Orthodox church.


"Orthodox : The Orthodox Churches follow a similar line of reasoning as the Roman Catholic Church with respect to ordination of priests, and does not allow women's ordination.[62]

Evangelos Theodorou argued that female deacons were actually ordained in antiquity.[63] K. K. Fitzgerald has followed and amplified Professor Theodorou's research. Bishop Kallistos Ware wrote:[64]

The order of deaconesses seems definitely to have been considered an "ordained" ministry during early centuries in at any rate the Christian East. ... Some Orthodox writers regard deaconesses as having been a "lay" ministry. There are strong reasons for rejecting this view. In the Byzantine rite the liturgical office for the laying-on of hands for the deaconess is exactly parallel to that for the deacon; and so on the principle lex orandi, lex credendi—the Church's worshipping practice is a sure indication of its faith—it follows that the deaconesses receives, as does the deacon, a genuine sacramental ordination: not just a χειροθεσια (chirothesia) but a χειροτονια (chirotonia).

On October 8, 2004, the Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Greece voted to permit the ordination of monastic women deacons, that is, women deacons to minister and assist at the liturgy within their own monasteries.[65][66] There is a strong monastic tradition, pursued by both men and women in the Orthodox churches, where monks and nuns lead identical spiritual lives. Unlike Western-rite Catholic religious life, which has myriad traditions, both contemplative and active (see Benedictine monks, Franciscan friars, Jesuits), that of Orthodoxy has remained exclusively ascetic and monastic."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women#Orthodox

The life of St. Olympia who was appointed a deaconess.
http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102087

[Kosta]

We have a monastery outside our town. It is called St. Mary Magdalene and when I visited one day I saw a huge frescoe of this saint in Rome pleading for the Christians. I asked the Mother Superior on what they had based their information because I had never heard that Mary Magdalene had visited Rome, and she told me that the information was based on "old writings".

I have read that in the early centuries many women set up communities where they governed themselves but the men of the church felt that this was inappropriate for many reasons, one of which was the economical advantages these women had, and, at some point, broke up these communities.


I believe, from what I have read that the role of women changed in the early years of the Church when the
hierarchy of clergy members with bishops etc. was established. Women were excluded.

Mary Magdaline is called equal to the apostles because she reached Rome and preached the gospel to Tiberius Caesar. She handed him a red egg to symbolize the blood and told him Christ is Risen!

Effie you may be thinking of double monasteries. The abess would rule over the nuns and her portion of the property and the abbot over the monks half. This arrangement was not always the case. There were abbbesses who presided over both the monks and the nuns and had rule over the entire monastery. The most famous example is the western saint St. Hilda. It seems that St Macrina the younger held a similar role in her community. In fact Mr. Bergen would do well to read up on St. Hilda and St Macrina.

Never heard of closing them over economic advantages though.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Tradition relates, that in Italy Mary Magdalene visited the Emperor Tiberias (14-37 AD) and proclaimed to him about Christ's Resurrection. According to tradition, she took him an egg as a symbol of the Resurrection, a symbol of new life with the words: "Christ is Risen!" Then she told Tiberias that, in his Province of Judea, Jesus the Nazarene, a holy man, a maker of miracles, powerful before God and all mankind, was executed on the instigation of the Jewish High-Priests and the sentence affirmed by the procurator Pontius Pilate. Tiberias responded that no one could rise from the dead, anymore than the egg she held could turn red. Miraculously, the egg immediately began to turn red as testimony to her words. Then, and by her urging, Tiberias had Pilate removed from Jerusalem to Gaul, where he later suffered a horrible sickness and an agonizing death.

Sources matter. Some sources are better, or at least more reliable, than others. Many people write many things. Was it an Orthodox source? Did it have an hidden agenda? What was the context? We don't know if we don't know what was written or who it was written by. Otherwise it is next to meaningless. Wikipedia is useful as a starting point, but let me assure you it is far from being the most authoritative word on just about any subject. You really don't know where the last contributor to any particular article has been.

There have been extensive threads on the subject and many things have already been fairly thoroughly debunked from an Orthodox perspective with referenced and authoritative sources. I don't see where "I read somewhere" trumps that, but that might just be me. I recommend you also add to your extensive reading by reviewing those other threads mentioned above.

Nobody is denying that women deacons existed for a certain time in certain places. Their role and appropriateness in these times is a topic open to discussion and Wikipedia is not where Orthodoxy derives its doctrine or practice.

[Rob Bergen]

Thanks to all for posting here. I will take the time, for the sake of not taking this thread off-topic, to look at the previous threads that Herman posted. It is funny, I have used the search feature before, but sometimes things can get off topic very easily in a forum! Again, thanks to everyone for replying and joining in on the discussion.

Christus Resurrexit!

Rob