Jurisdictional frustrations [Archive] - Monachos.net Discussion Community

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Jude V.

24-10-2007, 10:25 AM

I am extremeley confused on the whole ecumenism thing and all the jurisdictional chaos. Everytime I turn around there is some new splinter group being formed. I'm tired of all the jurisdictional fights and everyone hurling anathemas at each other and claiming everyone but themselves have no grace. I honestly don't know where true Orthodoxy is anymore. For every jurisdiction, there is a counter-jurisdiction claiming the fomrer is invalid and graceless. Who has the authority to say who has and does not have grace? The old calendar groups are constantly dividing, and the new calendar groups (GOA, OCA, Serbs, Moscow, etc) are governed by Masons and heretics. Does this mean they are invalid and graceless? Does the validity of a jurisdiction depend on the 100% Orthodoxy of one of its bishops or patriarchs?

Look, I just want to be Orthodox and a monk, but I don't know where to go to church anymore. There are defenders for every jurisdiction. I once had faith in ROCOR, but now they have been absorbed into the soviet/Communist religion of Antichrist. This is what I have been taught to believe as a traditionalist. Someone help me. Who has the infallible voice in Orthodoxy to speak on these matters? Help me before I become Roman Catholic. At least they have an "infallible" source to appeal to. We have nothing. Which jurisdictions have grace? I need to go to Communion. If the Serbs, Moscow and the GOA are graceless, as I have been taught to believe, this means I have to go 270 miles just to go to church, at ROCOR-V. Your input is appreciated. Thank you.

Jude

Andreas Moran

24-10-2007, 11:52 AM

My view, for what it's worth, is this. As I've said elsewhere, there is no such thing as a perfect jurisdiction. The Church is infallible - the people who run it are not. All jurisdictions can be criticised for something: MP for still having ex-KGB people in it, ROCOR for its links to Hitler; Old Calendar groups may criticise New Calendar groups, and so it goes on.

I'm not sure that any group says that another has no grace. That would be too much. Grace is an experience of the Holy Spirit Who is not confined jurisdictionally.

new calendar groups (GOA, OCA, Serbs, Moscow Moscow Patriarchate (MP) is Old Calendar. MP is not, so far as I know, governed by Masons, and the Russian Orthodox Church is not heretical.

I once had faith in ROCOR, but now they have been absorbed into the soviet/Communist religion of Antichrist. This is what I have been taught to believe as a traditionalist. MP is not a 'soviet/Communist religion of Antichrist'. It is completely Orthodox and possesses grace. This is not affected by the fact that there are a few 'leftovers' who were appointed in Soviet times and had links with the KGB. MP is the Church of St Sergius, St Seraphim and of the New Martyrs.

The Roman Catholic pope is not infallible, we believe, and the RC Church has significant errors of doctrine. Does the RC Church claim that all those who run it are without fault? Consider the events which occurred during the time of Pope Paul VI.

Patriarchs and Archbishops come and go - the Church remains. The Churches of the four ancient Patriarchates, the Orthodox Churches of Russia, Serbia, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria - these are Orthodox and possess the fulness of grace.

There is only jurisdictional chaos in lands of diaspora, such as the UK and USA. There is no such chaos in Cyprus, for example. Jursidictional 'variety' is not the same as ecumenism: that is the attempt to create closer ties with non-Orthodox communions such as Rome and the C of E, and is rejected by many Orthodox.

We have nothing. Wrong - we have everything.

Which jurisdictions have grace? All canonical Orthodox jurisdictions have grace in its fulness.

You don't say into which jurisdiction you were received. If it was one of those mentioned above, stop thinking about jurisdictions, focus on Christ and the working out of your salvation. When your soul stands before Christ, He will not ask, 'and what jurisdiction were you in?'

James Blackstock

24-10-2007, 03:05 PM

Andreas Moran

24-10-2007, 03:33 PM

stop thinking about jurisdictions
In saying this, I might be thought to be at odds with what I've said in the 'Mysteries' thread (regarding my unease with some things that happen in the west). To be clear, I hope, I mean here that all canonical jurisdictions have grace, and certain goings-on do not deprive the Church of grace. But in feeling more drawn to Moscow, I think I'm putting down a marker for myself about EP, but I'm not saying it lacks grace in any degree.

Nina

24-10-2007, 03:59 PM

Dear Jude,

I understand your frustration. I am so sad to hear it. Though you are not alone. For example I feel sad that we do not have a vigil for almost a year in the new city I moved to.

Read the Bible. Read whatever you can from the Fathers on the matter. Do not let yourself down. Do not loose your faith because others are whatever they are. No one is worthy to jeopardize the salvation of your soul. They will go in front of God for their sins and will give account to God for their sins. We will go in front of God for our sins. Regardless, of what others do, we must not neglect our salvation... because we can not blame others in front of God for our sins (like Adam and Eve did).

There is a story (from Gerontikon I think?) which tells about a person who saw a priest that had committed grave sins. When he entered the Holy Altar before preparing for Holy Liturgy, angels lifted the sins from the shoulders of the priest right at the door of the Iconostasis. He did not have his sins over his shoulders during the entire Liturgy. However at the end of the Liturgy when the priest finished all prayers and departed from the Holy Altar to go home, the angels placed again his sins over his shoulders. We can all understand the meaning of this about the grace and about mercy of God since we are all fallen in a fallen world. I am not sure about those who commit heresy and do not repent though. But do not worry because the story of Arius tells us that God takes care of them also, like He does with everyone. We must pray for their repentance and salvation.

Saint Kosmas Aitolos is a beloved saint of Orthodoxy. He spoke about relationships of priests and laity.

My brethren, you laymen should be careful not to accuse your priests, not to swear at them, and not to neglect them because you put fire [in your breast] and you will be burned, because priests are even higher than angels and kings. This is how my mind tells me, my brethren, to act. If I were to meet a priest and a king, I would put the priest to sit higher than the king. If I were to meet a priest and an angel, I would first greet the priest and then the angel. Because, my brethren, [the priest] is higher even than the holy altar, higher even than the holy chalice, because the holy chalice is without a soul, but the priest receives the holy Sacraments daily, the holy Body and Blood of our Lord and God Jesus Christ. 1, my brethren, have no charges to make against the priest, because they are priests, and they have Christ who punishes them, and whatever mistake they make, our Christ has an iron rod to apply to them.

There was a man who went to confession to one confessor for fifteen years. Going once again to confess, he discovered the confessor fornicating with a woman. He said to himself: "O! Woe to me. I have been confessing to him for so many years and now I'll be damned. No matter how many sins he has forgiven me, they're all unforgiven."

Saying this, he immediately left. On the way he became thirsty. Proceeding farther, he found some running water so clean that he remarked: "If the water here is so clean, how much cleaner must it be at the fountain where it originates?"

He bent down and drank. Going on, he came to the fountain and he saw that the water was coming out of the mouth of a dog. He sighed and said: "Woe to me! I have been polluted."

Then an angel of the Lord said to him: "Why were you not polluted when you first drank the water, and now that you have seen it coming from the mouth of a dog, you abhor it? I wonder, isn't the dog from God who created the sky, the earth, and everything? If the dog is unclean, don't be sad; the water isn't his. It is the same with the confessor who heard your confessions. Was the forgiveness perhaps his? It belongs to the Holy Spirit. Because he possessed the office of the priesthood, he was superior to kings and angels. What does it matter to you if he committed fornication? He is the mouth of the dog, so don't be sad. Whatever he forgave you is forgiven. Only go and prostrate yourself before him and ask for his forgiveness. He'll be judged by God." Then the angel disappeared. The man went back to the confessor and told him everything the angel had advised him. Hearing the whole narrative, the confessor wept, repented, and was saved.

We must find fault with ourselves, and then we'll be saved.

I WISH, MY FELLOW CHRISTIANS, that we could be together always, so that I could tell various things. But what can I do since there are thousands of villages where they have never heard the word of God, and they are awaiting for me. So I beg you, holy priests, and I counsel you to concern yourselves with the laymen, how they - and you - are going to be saved. Similarly, you laymen should honor your priests. And if you chance to come upon a priest and a king, you should give preference to the priest. If you chance upon a priest and an angel, prefer the priest, because the priest is higher than even the angels. The priest who wishes his own good should read the law so he'll understand his obligations. Concerning holy priests I have nothing to say to you. It is my duty when I meet a priest to bow and kiss his hand and to ask him to beseech God for my sins. The entire world can beseech God, but cannot perform the holy Sacraments. But a priest, even a sinner, with the grace of the Holy Spirit, can perform the holy Sacraments.

I only say this: whoever wishes to become a priest should be as pure as an angel. He should be educated so he can explain the holy Gospel and the sacred Scriptures. And when he becomes thirty years of age, and the laymen and the bishop ask him, then he should become a priest without paying any money. He should live near the church so that whatever hour he is wanted by the laymen they will find him. He should observe who is angry with his wife, which brother with his brother, which neighbor with his neighbor, and reconcile them. He should sacrifice himself for his flock.

And when he celebrates [the Divine Liturgy] and completes the reading of the Gospel, he should explain to the Christians what Christ commands them to do. He should recall that the tassels which are on his stole represent the souls of the Christians. And if one soul is lost he'll have to account for it on the day of judgment. lie should recall that the chasuble he wears has no sleeves. This means that the priest should keep his hand clear of worldly affairs and should always have his mind on heaven. And when he folds the chasuble and it becomes like two wings, this shows that if he does good works he will fly to heaven like an angel.

If, on the other hand, he is unworthy, uneducated, infected with sins, pays money and uses intermediaries to become a priest, he buys hell. Woe to the priest who reads the Gospel and then tells lies.

In olden times, when people. wanted to punish someone, they swore and said, "May God place him among the priests of the eighteenth century." This is why, my brethren, it is difficult today for patriarchs, bishops, priests, etc., to be saved.

This is why I advise you, holy priests, now that you have time, repent so you may be saved.You can read these here (http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/kosmas/welcome.html).

Also there are these prophecies from Saint Kosmas (http://members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/St.%20Kosmas.htm).

56.A time will come when there will not be the harmony that exists now between the laity and the clergy.

57.The clergy will become the worst and most impious of all.

James Blackstock

24-10-2007, 04:10 PM

Nina

24-10-2007, 04:15 PM

Additionally, like Andreas says the Church is not the church of those who have gone astray. The Church is the Church of our Saints led by the Holy Spirit. Eastern Patriarchate is not of those who are what they are. Eastern Patriarchate has produced many Saints and in their midst those like Saint John Chrysostom etc. Eastern Patriarchate is of those Saints starting with Saint Andreas, whose memory we celebrate in some weeks.

I was reading the Greek version of the book about Elder Paisios. (Sorry I do not have the English translation to provide the page reference, but if one is interested I can provide the page of the Greek book.) There were people so frustrated with Athenagora (ex-Patriarch). These people went to Elder Paisios and started complaining and venting out their frustrations, understandably. They also said that they were praying to God to take Athenagoras away, so the Patriarchate will be rid of such person like him. At that moment Elder Paisios says: "My children I also pray for Patriarch Athenagoras. But I pray to God to take days from my own life and give them to him so he can have time to repent and not perish."

From this story we understand that Church belongs to such people and produces such people like our Saints (that can not even be numbered) and like our Fathers and Elders.

Saint Mark Eugenikos was surrounded by heretics and betrayers of the Faith, but that did not keep him from becoming a Saint. Obviously there was grace enough to make him a saint. Because if we strive to sanctify ourselves we become receptors of the grace of God for all and everything.

This is the reasons why Fathers advise us to pray, so God has mercy on the world (especially at the end of times) and we become vessels for the grace of God to be dispersed in the world.

Saints lived in the midst of sin and heresy, but they became holy and attracted the grace of God for their time and area, and because of them many of their contemporaries were saved and that grace transcends times and places and continues to save.

Nina

24-10-2007, 04:41 PM

Quote: Also there are these prophecies from Saint Kosmas (http://members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/St.%20Kosmas.htm).

Dear Nina:
I love this site, I go there often. I also have read the Heritage Newsletter. It is first class

InXC,
Seraphim

Dear Seraphim,

Yes that site is wonderful. I discovered it first while looking for the English version of the Prophecies of Saint Kosmas Aitolos since I love this Saint and many prophecies of him have been fulfilled. I was so blessed to venerate his holy relics.

I was so pleasantly surprised to find a monastery in North America dedicated to Saint Kosmas Aitolos. This monastery is one hour north of Toronto. This monastery was found by Elder Ephraim of Arizona, who actually lived in Mount Athos at the same monastery and at the same cell where Saint Kosmas Aitolos lived. I am so happy when I think that like Saint Kosmas was a missionary and spread Orthodoxy, or gave strength to the Orthodox, the same is happening with Elder Ephraim who came to US and started this wonderful mission with the monasteries he found. Thank God!

Please tell me where can I find the Heritage Newsletter, because I do not know it.

Thank you.

Love in Christ,
Nina

Andreas Moran

24-10-2007, 05:02 PM

Elder Paisios says: "My children I also pray for Patriarch Athenagoras. But I pray to God to take days from my own life and give them to him so he can have time to repent and not perish."

Apparently, Athenagoras did go to a monastery on Mt Athos and repent of his past deeds. He and Maximos V died the same year.

Father David Moser

24-10-2007, 06:29 PM

Look, I just want to be Orthodox and a monk, but I don't know where to go to church anymore. There are defenders for every jurisdiction. I once had faith in ROCOR, but now they have been absorbed into the soviet/Communist religion of Antichrist. This is what I have been taught to believe as a traditionalist.

Narrow your focus - stop worrying about the politics of the Church. Say your prayers, read the gospel and focus only on the salvation of you soul. This is the same advice that my own archbishop once gave me when I was too engaged in the larger affairs of the Church. He simply told me to focus on the flock that God had given me and to work for the salvation of their souls and not to concern myself with the storm of politics and worldly, demonic chaos that surrounds us.

In my own parish (a ROCOR parish) there is no chaos because we do not concern ourselves about the political whims of the world, but concentrate only on the work at hand - our own salvation. I did not mention politics, or even the reconciliation of the two largest parts of the Russian Church (ROCOR and MP) except when directly instructed to ask for prayers from my parish. People knew what was going on, but all that stuff wasn't as important to them as working out their own salvation in their daily lives.

Just last weekend, I was talking with one of my older Russian parishioners, an avid reader of the propoganda called "Nasha Strana" (She reads it because the language is beautiful, however garbage wrapped in a nice package is still garbage). She has lots of questions raised by the slander published in that tabloid. But she said to me that it is not important really, because all that does not affect the life of our parish (and this parish as well as our diocese is firmly in support of the reconciliation - so its not like parish life was in synch with her opinions). We still pray the same prayers, we still chant the same services together, we still struggle with our sins and receive the Holy Mysteries - no change from before. Yes, now we commemorate the Patriarch and we pray for him (but as Christians we are supposed to pray for everyone anyway - so that's of no consequence) and we pray for the "God preserved" Russian land rather than the "suffering" Russian land, however, this still doesn't change how we work together for the salvation of our souls.

You accuse various hierarchs of sinning, even heresy, and yet the Church still recognizes them as hierarchs. We are not donatists who believed that grace came and went with the sanctity of the person - rather we believe that God is merciful and loves us and desires that none are lost but all are saved. Yes, our hierarchs have their faults, their own sins, even in some cases they might hold opinions that are outside the pale of the Church. But they have not renounced Christ, they have not left the ark of salvation. If you see their sin, then pray for them - and pay also for yourself (the sins which we accuse others of are often the ones most active in our own hearts - we make the accusations simply to distract attention from ourselves). Take the example, already mentioned of St Mark of Ephesus. St Mark returned from Florence, having fled the captivity of the Romans, having consistently proclaimed the Orthodox faith. His confession of faith, however, was not sufficient grounds to exonerate his actions, rather we venerate him because the Church - the people of Christ - continued to honor him and confirmed his Orthodox teaching. The Church rejected the teaching of the compromisers and those who did not recant of their sins were excluded from the Church, by the Church herself. Let us apply the same standard to our hierarchs today. Who has the Church embraced, who do we accept as our hierarchs and who is forced out of the Church? A modern example which I think is quite clear of this same process. The Orthodox people in Russia, following the collapse of the godless soviet regime, had a choice. They could have rejected the existing structure of the MP and flocked instead to the Churches that remained open during the persecution and which were loyal to "uncompromised" bishops. These Churches included parishes and bishops under the protection of the synod of bishops of ROCOR. But the people did not reject the MP (which you call the soviet religion of the antichrist) but rather the Church spoke clearly that the repentance of the MP (and yes it is there for all who wish to see it) was genuine and freed of their own captivity they were again leading their people unimpeded upon the path of salvation. The Church as a whole spoke and passed judgment in exactly he same way as it occurred in the days of St Mark.

I have written much more than I intended, please forgive me. Let me reiterate my original point. Lower your focus. Pay attention to your prayers, to your participation in the services of the Church, to your works of mercy, to your repentance and to your acquisition of the Holy Spirit. Ignore the "jurisdictional chaos". Grace has not departed from the Church. Do not run off all hotheaded into schism, but remain where you are and pray and work out your own salvation.

Fr David Moser

Darinka Mamula

25-10-2007, 01:08 AM

Nina,
Thank you very much for the resources; I was in need of them today! A person I recently met told me today that they do not attend 'our' church (only Serbian Orthodox church in the area) because they 'do not like' the priest. I could not think of anything to say, I was so surprised. I thought it was really terrible; to say such negative things about a priest (and a priest who, as far as I have been able to see) constantly works for the church to educate people in the Faith, and conducts himself with much humility.

Yuri Zharikov

25-10-2007, 04:00 AM

Jude, brother,
You want to be a monk - my the merciful Lord help you in this. As somebody who wants to follow the angelic path you should really learn how to tell truth from falsehood and what it means to be in a state of spiritial delusion (prelest'). I am not saying this with guile but with sincerely concern and pain in my heart, because the only one, one should consider as graceless, etc is himself - please take time, read 1 Cor 13.
Most of the things you say about the local Churches of Russia, etc are quite frankly sladerous; they do not stand to any scrutiny and are only said or written by some to agitate hatred and create schism and division.
If you truly want to change situation around you the very best thing you can possibly do is to soften your own heart and the best way to achieve that would be pray, shedding sweat and tears, with fasting and metanias for all those Orthodox Archpriests, Priests and laity whom you suspect or accuse of godlessness.

Please forgive me,
Yura

Kosta

25-10-2007, 05:40 AM

I would not worry about this group or that group, whether it is heretical or correct, grace filled or devoid of grace. Dont kill yourself over such things. as the old saying goes, if you find a perfect church, dont join it because it wont be perfect anymore.

If you join a splinter group, im not going to chastise you, but i will tell you to make sure they are right believing with apostolic succession, that there reason for seperation is canonically acceptible and that they openly allow you to hold a moderate view (this alone narrows them down to just one or two). Read Fr Seraphim's writing on the "super-correct" movement, Fr Seraphim himself was no ecumenist nor did he condone modernism. Never be dragged into fundamentalism and extremism , it sooooo not profitable for the soul.

Likewise if you join the mainline Orthodox churches, this does not mean you must become a liberal ecumenist. The GOA is very liberal and ecumenist and modernist (i should know i belong to it) yet the least ecumenical, least modernist, most traditional monastery in America is St Anthony's in Arizona under the GOARCH. Heck the abbot Elder Ephraim is probably the holiest person in America!

James Blackstock

25-10-2007, 02:30 PM

Nina wrote:

Please tell me where can I find the Heritage Newsletter, because I do not know it.

Thank you.

Love in Christ,
Nina

Dear Nina:

Here is the information you asked for on the Heritage Newsletter.
http://members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/
InXC,
Seraphim

Andreas Moran

25-10-2007, 04:57 PM

Here is the information you asked for on the Heritage Newsletter.
http://members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/

Very interesting site. I read the prophecies of St Anatoly the Younger, and noticed where the saint says, 'when you see the violation of patristic tradition and the divine order in the Church, the order established by God, know that the heretics have already appeared', though the whole of this text needs reading. I then thought of some of the things mentioned in the 'Mysteries' thread such as a hierarch forbidding the baptism of converts and the celebration of Easter with the western churches, and I put two and two together and make four.

James Blackstock

25-10-2007, 07:12 PM

Very interesting site. I read the prophecies of St Anatoly the Younger, and noticed where the saint says, 'when you see the violation of patristic tradition and the divine order in the Church, the order established by God, know that the heretics have already appeared', though the whole of this text needs reading. I then thought of some of the things mentioned in the 'Mysteries' thread such as a hierarch forbidding the baptism of converts and the celebration of Easter with the western churches, and I put two and two together and make four.

Andreas:

The newsletter is terrific and very informative (you are really good at math!)
InXC,
James

Nina

25-10-2007, 07:20 PM

Heck the abbot Elder Ephraim is probably the holiest person in America!

I know I am judging but I wanted to add: of the North and of the South and the oceans near by.

Nina

25-10-2007, 07:22 PM

Andreas:

The newsletter is terrific and very informative (you are really good at math!)
InXC,
James

Yes, it is. Thank you so much about the newsletter!

Nina

25-10-2007, 07:28 PM

Dear Jude,

Whenever you feel, please return here and let us know what is happening. Did we help? Did we make it worse for you? As it is already mentioned above, I also have heard the saying, Orthodoxy - the best religion with the worst people. Do not count much on us, or the Orthodox that surround you because as a Father has said: God permits disappointment from people in the Church for us, so we count only on Him and place our hopes, love and everything only on Him and not on other people.

Matthew Panchisin

25-10-2007, 11:02 PM

Dear Nina,

As it is already mentioned above, I also have heard the saying, Orthodoxy - the best religion with the worst people.

It seems to me that the saying that you also have heard conveys notions that do not seem right, I have heard such things before as well, it is a common saying in these days as such I wanted to share some thoughts.

I think the true faith that heals the sick is more accurate. It is Christ that heals and His Church, the Orthodox Church is not just the best religion or one of many ways that one may choose, as you well know it is written:

"They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

It is interesting to note that in these days when people see a mountain removed they do not think which of God's servants has said to the mountain move from there, but rather people tend to look at things as if God created and just set things in motion with no further involvement. But God says to one servant go move this mountain and it is done, and another go move that mountain and it is done, the righteous servants must know that God is most wise.

The righteous Bishop's, Priest's and Deacon's that have been obedient to God's callings and healed schisms do not create the best religion with the worst people, man is sanctified within the Church. The Church does not heal the Church, the Church heals man. When man is healed all things can be fulfilled in Christ. Man does not heal Christ's Church, that would be a falsehood that has it's origins from the heretics. It is with Christ within His Church that the rational flock finds the true light and receives the heavenly Spirit.

I think you are somewhat right here Nina.

Do not count much on us, or the Orthodox that surround you because as a Father has said: God permits disappointment from people in the Church for us, so we count only on Him and place our hopes, love and everything only on Him and not on other people.

The only thing I would add is I have seen many Orthodox Christians that are the salt of the earth in all jurisdictions, there are many that can be counted on that place all their hope rightly in Christ and not on other ways.

Dear Jude,

The Church having it's traditions coming to us from the Apostles does not seek to change those understandings, it has been written that Kingdoms change when men change.

Be at peace Jude, God who is love, loves. There is much grace in Father David Mosers advise to you.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

James Blackstock

26-10-2007, 12:27 AM

Dear Nina,

I[quote]
think the true faith that heals the sick is more accurate. It is Christ that heals and His Church, the Orthodox Church is not just the best religion or one of many ways that one may choose, as you well know it is written:

"They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Dear Matthew:

It is good to hear someone speak with such Faith and Love! I am proud to call you my brother in Christ. I don't in any way wish to diminish the positive remarks you have shared with us, for we all need them! I don't think anyone on this forum has forgotten the Truth! I think because of the Truth in our hearts we see some inconsistancies that saden our hearts. I remind you of a scripture;

Rev 2:14-17
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
KJV

If the Lord would write this to the Church in the first 100 years of our church history, how many things would He have against us now?

Yes, we need to have Love, tolerance and we should be faithful in our prayers for our heirarchy, we need also to be "awake", we should not be foolish virgins!

InXC,
Seraphim

Andreas Moran

26-10-2007, 02:54 AM

Andreas:

([QUOTE]you are really good at math!)

With me, that's as good as it gets! I hope I'm better at reading the signs of the times.

Matthew Panchisin

26-10-2007, 05:07 AM

Dear Seraphim,

Thank you for the compliment on faith and love but I tend to fall short often. I just spoke with a Priest friend via telephone (new calendar) in California. I asked him how things are going since he is in the middle of the fires there. He mentioned he is ok, and in a matter of fact sort of way mentioned he blessed the house and he hasn't had any fire problems. He told me the story of his Russian father a laymen blessing his house and another house with Holy water about 70 years ago. There was a tornado that wiped out the entire town except the two houses his father blessed, it's a true story that people often find hard to believe, when he told me it I found myself thinking really?

Anyway, I'm not to sure I understand what you are saying. If you mean paying attention to what is happening in other Churches, ecumenism etc. I understand. But the apostasy will happen no matter what is said. There have been some very holy monks that have spoken against ecumenism that are simply ignored or dismissed as being out of touch with the way things are outside the monasteries etc. There was a simple monk on Mount Athos who had some visitors one day. One asked; Father what is faith? The monk struggled to understand and come up with words to explain what faith is. Once he was able to gather some thoughts together he said; Do you see that mountain over there? Faith is when you say to that mountain move, and it moves. Lo and behold no sooner as he finished speaking the mountain trembled. When I was told that one, I didn't find myself thinking really? so I'm not sure what that means...

"we need also to be "awake", we should not be foolish virgins!"

The seven sleepers had been allowed to sleep for the glory of God and Jonah was in the belly of the whale as part of putting together the salvation of man. God is glorified in many ways by means of the virtues, like when virginity is married with mercy and compassion. How much so more is the Church spotless, pure and merciful even when men fall short within her embrace?

Here is part of a sermon from a Serbian Priest, he references The Blessed Theophylact often who is said to express the mind of the Church well.

"The twenty-fifth chapter of the Gospel of St. Matthew has a strong lesson on preparedness. The Lord Jesus Christ told of ten virgins, five wise and five foolish.

The five wise virgins were prepared when the bridegroom came. The five foolish virgins were unprepared and were locked out.

The Blessed Theophylact said the Lord used this parable to teach those who understand the greatness of the virtue of virginity not to neglect the others.

Mercy and compassion and almsgiving are important lessons. The are to be coupled with virginity. The Blessed Theophylact goes on to say the lamps in the parable are our souls and minds. Our souls and minds are lit with the oil of virtues and almsgiving.

A primary lesson in this parable according to Blessed Theophylact is that there is no time for repentance and deeds after our departure from this life.

We have to be prepared at all times. We have to use well the time given us by God in this life. The Lord does not know those who lack mercy in daily life. The Blessed Theophylact says: "If we do not labor and trade with good deeds, we extinguish the light of God that is in us."

Nina

26-10-2007, 06:30 AM

Dear Nina,

It seems to me that the saying that you also have heard conveys notions that do not seem right,
In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Dearest Matthew,

I think I understand what you mean. I never meant to put down Orthodoxy, or Orthodox people. Love them all. Sorry if I upset you!

I am just worried about Jude, since some of our replies seem a bit hard. Mine first... I was not sure if I helped him, or made things worse. When a brother is carrying a heavy load and seems exhausted, hold the cross for him - that is what I was taught. He seems sad and who can accuse him? Which one from us was not ever down? That is what Christ taught us with the Cross while on the Calvary. But you also mention compassion too, so that is what I was trying to do. Sorry that maybe I chose the wrong example and thank you for telling me the negativity of this expression. So sorry! Thank you because I never thought of that!

Matthew Panchisin

26-10-2007, 06:39 AM

Dear Nina,

No need to be concerned at all, I'm not at all upset. I was not focusing on your use of the expression, it is something that I have heard very often lately and it sort of jumped out of the page.

Clearly Jude is beloved here by many.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Jude V.

26-10-2007, 12:29 PM

I would love to reply, but they are not posting my replies. I gave my name. Its JUDE. Is that good enough? Do you also want my age, place of birth, ethnicity, height, weight, jurisdiction?

One has to be a patristic scholar and expert in canon law in Orthodoxy to sift through all the political garbage to find the truth. The whole thing is rediculous. Christ did not found such chaos. Everything that seperates from Rome inevitibly leads to chaos and jurisdictional rivalries.

Herman Blaydoe

26-10-2007, 01:55 PM

Ah, I see our friend Jude is finally coming to his real point. There is a lot of anger and pain that comes through his posts.

We pray for you Jude, and hope you find the Peace that surpasses our human understanding. You are making things much more difficult than they need to be, evidently to make your "point" which has been discussed in this forum and many others many many times. May the Peace of Christ be with you.

Andreas Moran

26-10-2007, 02:48 PM

One has to be a patristic scholar and expert in canon law in Orthodoxy to sift through all the political garbage to find the truth.

No - Christ is the truth, and He can be approached with simple love. You don't have to be clever to be a Christian.

Christ did not found such chaos.

He prayed that we should all be one, but we read, in Acts, of arguments even in Apostolic times.

Everything that seperates from Rome inevitibly leads to chaos and jurisdictional rivalries.

The great majority of Orthodox Christians work out their salvation in the Church without thinking about these things. But I'd rather have some jurisdictional rivalry than error in doctrine.

James Blackstock

26-10-2007, 05:16 PM

Dear Matthew:

We all fall short! I agree with you that the Apostacy will happen regardless of what we do! Thank you for sharing the words of Blessed Theophylact with me. They were an encouragement!

InXC,
James

Kosta

27-10-2007, 09:03 AM

One has to be a patristic scholar and expert in canon law in Orthodoxy to sift through all the political garbage to find the truth. The whole thing is rediculous. Christ did not found such chaos. Everything that seperates from Rome inevitibly leads to chaos and jurisdictional rivalries.

What juridictional rivalry are we speaking about? Isnt it all the same Faith? Whether Slavic or Greek? Whether followers of the Julian or new calendar?

It is better to say that whatever seperated from Orthodoxy leads to chaos and jurisdictional rivalry. The rivalry of Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Presbyterianism. Old Catholicism, SSPX, Calvinism and basically 33,000 protestant sects which are illegitimate daughters, granddaughters and great grandaughters of Rome.

Jude V.

27-10-2007, 12:45 PM

Thank you for all your responses. I can tell you folks have the spirit of Christ. I think I agree with you to. But there are people out there who still defend where I'm coming from. For example, Vladimir Moss told me that the Moscow Patriarchate has no grace. Also, the ROCOR fell under its own anathemas when it joined them. Alexy II (code name Drozdov), is a Communist. Doesn't that bother you? I am not arguing that a persons sanctity determines the validity of the Church. I am arguing their orthodoxy, or lack of it, does.

It was said:

"I'm not sure that any group says that another has no grace. That would be too much. Grace is an experience of the Holy Spirit Who is not confined jurisdictionally."

My Response: The gracelessness of virtually every jurisdiction, except their own, is the fundemental claim of the traditional groups (ROAC, GOC, TOC, etc).

I think "traditionalism" has done alot of harm. They tell everyone that everyone else is a heretic. This is fantaticism, hatred, fundementalism and facism.

Saint Anthony's Monastery might be good, but I don't think Fr. Paisios is a very loving person.

I think there can be unity without uniformity, and meaning is found not in the parts, but in the whole.

Thank you for all your responses.

Herman Blaydoe

27-10-2007, 03:31 PM

St. Paul persecuted the first Christians. St. Moses the Black was a thief and murderer. Blessed Augustine, whom many in the Orthodox Church call saint, wrote some things that were simply wrong. We do not require infallibility, even of our saints. Some otherwise holy people sometimes get things wrong, because we are not God.

Patriarch Alexy may or may not have been a willing agent of the Communists, but the Communists are no more and the Church goes on. Isn't that something to rejoice over? So I, for one, am not particularly bothered. What if he wasn't a willing agent? What if he was but repented? What if God is working through an imperfect vessel to build up His Church? Like THAT has never happened before?

Vladimir Moss is not infallible. Certainly no single person has the "big picture" that belongs to God alone. That is why our Church values concilliarity, which schismatic groups have decided to shun, to their own spiritual harm. We pray for them that the real reasons for their separation from their brethren be healed that they may be reconciled, even as ROCOR and the MP have reconciled. How good and pleasant it is, when brothers dwell in unity.

But Unity in Truth and faithfulness to the Apostolic Witness requires discernment, and we don't all have that in equal measure. Therefore there will be concerns and dynamic tension as we find our way down the path. This causes strife, but is it any different now than before? Wasn't there strife in the early Church? Was the Church of the Byzantine Empire free from controversy? Was the Church under the Ottomans pure? A church free from controversy would be a church that is dead. The Church may be perfect, but God allows us imperfect people to act like we run things. He knows better even if we don't.

At least that is how it seems to this simple mind.

Your servant,
Herman

Father David Moser

27-10-2007, 06:22 PM

. But there are people out there who still defend where I'm coming from. For example, Vladimir Moss told me that the Moscow Patriarchate has no grace.

Mr Moss long ago separated himself from the Russian Church - long before there was even a hint of the reconciliation of the two separated parts of the Russian Church. He is a very intelligent man from all I have read - but in this case he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Also, the ROCOR fell under its own anathemas when it joined them. Alexy II (code name Drozdov), is a Communist. Doesn't that bother you?

What anathemas are these? The only one that has ever been quoted with any kind of consistency is the questionable anathema against ecumenism. This anathema was never considered by the whole synod of bishops and was inserted into the minutes of a synod meeting after the fact. There are many other facts which question its authenticity. However let us assume that this anathema is indeed an official proclamation of the Church Abroad. In that case the text of the anathema is quite clear in that it condemns the so called "branch theory". Please tell me when and how any Orthodox Church has actually openly and officially confessed this "branch theory" and so began teaching this heresy. Thirdly, no anathema is "self acting" - it must be "invoked" and "applied" by the appropriate Synod of Bishops. This was never done by ROCOR in relation to any other Church and since no other Church including the MP was ever declared to be under anathema, how can ROCOR "fall under its own anathema" by the reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian Church.

There has been a lot of criticism against Patriarch Alexey II claiming that he was a KGB agent. Please produce proof of that (other than the mere fact that the KGB had a code name by which he was referred to in their internal documents). I would suggest that you look at the Mitrokhin Archives (I believe that is the name of the book) which published excerpts of the sealed KGB archives after their release. There is a chapter dealing with Patriarch Alexey II and nowhere is there any indication that he was a KGB agent or that he acted against the Church in any way. What the archives do show is the the Patriarch is a man who knew how to keep a low profile and avoid making overt enemies. After the fall of the Soviet Union, he made an apology to the Russian people for any suffering that may have been caused by the hierarchy of the Church during the soviet captivity. The text of that apology is in the book. This book, btw, is not edited or published by anyone related to the Church - it is a purely secular political history.

I am not arguing that a persons sanctity determines the validity of the Church. I am arguing their orthodoxy, or lack of it, does.

I guess I'm wondering then, how it is that you make that judgement (that a person is not orthodox) If someone outright confesses an heretical doctrine, then there might be reason to have doubts and so to seek the counsel of one's own spiritual father on this matter. But even this means that it is not up to me but rather for those in authority in the Church (the bishop or synod of bishops) to make such a determination. Personally I would be quite wary of any thoughts that I might have about who is and is not Orthodox.

You might benefit from reading the proceedings of the IV All Diaspora Sobor (http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engnews/ensobor.html) which occurred a full year prior to the signing of the Act of Canonical Communion as well as the materials of the Joint Commissions (http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/materials.html) which worked for years prior to the Sobor. These things might help provide a different perspective on the MP/ROCOR relationship.

May God grant you peace

Fr David Moser

Andreas Moran

28-10-2007, 01:21 AM

the Moscow Patriarchate has no grace.

The Church which gave the world more martyrs than in the whole of Christian history put together cannot be without grace. On the contrary, the Russian Orthodox Church is adorned in the blood of Christ's martyrs 'as in purple and fine linen'. Read of the heroism of Father Arseny, of St Seraphim Vyritsky, of St Luke the Blessed Surgeon, and their like. The Church which, in the words of Elder Sophrony, 'was existing in hell' is a beacon in this world.

Andrew

28-10-2007, 03:33 AM

The second you find a perfect jurisdiction, you will ruin it.

You can find good things and bad things about everything. Do you want to be like a joyful hummingbird, getting nectar from wherever you can, or a fly, flying from feces to rotten flesh and so forth?

If you want a traditional Orthodox witness, then there are thousands of wonderful priests and monastics to go to. It doesn't matter about jurisdictions. It is one Church. Some parishes are spiritually healthier than others; some are better suited for different people. Find a parish or monastery where you will be spiritually edified, and go there. Not based on correctness, but on what brings you to a burning love of Our Lord and makes you seek to live according to His commandments. Where in the US do you live? I'm sure someone here can refer you somewhere good.

Kosta

28-10-2007, 08:27 AM

I find it rather amusing that recent western converts hold so much sway in Orthodoxy. Vladimir Moss who shouldnt even be speaking about Orthodox matters, styles himself as an expert even though he is not even Orthodox! He has severed himself from the church with his false beliefs.

Isnt it ironic that those who cross land and sea to condemn the MP ,were all raised non-Orthodox and were taught in the american-british public school system that russians are evil? Isnt it ironic that converts such as Vladimir Ross and the jewish-american convert "Brother Nathaniel" are all of the same boat? Russian-haters who are carrying out neo-Mcarthyism in the guise of authentic russian Orthodoxy!

Another looney we can add to this list is the "so-called" Bishop Gregory of Colorado. Here we have a person who actually trys to persuade people hes a russian, and one of the last right-believing russian heirarchs in the worlds!!! When in reality hes an Arab- American (whose family are under Antioch's jurisdiction)!

Is there any doubt???? That these ROCOR splinter offshoot sects consist mostly of wacko protestant converts who are trying to hijack the russian identity and their Faith???

Now let me demonstrated with ease that Vladimir Moss has no credibility and that he is no longer Orthodox.

The only thing Vladimir Moss is known for, is defending images of God the Father. Dr. George Gabriel already has disproven his arguments, so he labels him as "a greek american" (as if being greek and not russian makes him less of an authority). Does he think this will help his case!!!! Being Greek American means that Gabriel is a cradle Orthodox with centuries of authentic Orthodox tradition under his belt, something Moss does not have.

In fact Vladimir Moss further destroys his credibility when he pins himself against a "fellow" old calendarist in the Trinity icon controversy. Probably the most prolific old calendar thinker is the late Alexandros Kalomiros. Once again the convert Vladimir Moss believes Kalomiros a cradle Orthodox living in a traditional Orthodox country and a major theologian is mistaken when he condemns depictions of God the Father in iconography!

But it gets better. The greatest iconographer of the 20th century Photius Kontoglou, whose body is incorrupt and fragrant and an old calendarist sympathizer at that, later in his career, repented and stopped painting NT trinity icons and wrote and entire article on why there heretical. Once again the american convert Moss puts himself above Kontonglou, the master of 20th century iconography Photius Kontonglou a future Saint of our Church is less knowledgeable on iconography than the brit turned pseudo-russian Moss!

He puts himself above St John of Damascus and St Theodore the Studite both champions of icons who made it clear that representations of the Father and the Trinity are impossible. And finally he puts himself above the 7th ecumenical council which teaches the same, (if you dont believe me go to ccel.org and read the 7th council clearly and in its entirety)
He is obviously not Orthodox but he is a heretic, a russian hating protestant, and the new Joe Mccarthy.

How in the world do american converts (and other former heterodox) gain so much clout in Orthodoxy is beyond understanding. Kyrie Eleison!

Andreas Moran

28-10-2007, 01:07 PM

Well said, Kosta! I was thinking - if Vladimir Moss thinks MP has no grace, what does that mean, and if it means anything , how does he know?

Anthony

28-10-2007, 02:09 PM

I find it rather amusing that recent western converts hold so much sway in Orthodoxy. Vladimir Moss....

He doesn't, as far as I know.

Father David Moser

28-10-2007, 03:29 PM

I would like to remind everyone that the purpose of this community is the discussion of Orthodox Christianity in its pastristic, monastic and liturgical expression. Let's try and keep within that focus. We can discuss the jurisdictional differences and difficulties without character assassination. While Mr Moss was brought up as an example of one who has set forth a particular position, let's deal with the position that he espouses rather than allowing ourselves to fall into the "ad-hominum" trap of criticizing the person rather than his argument. Remember we are all sinners and we all have faults which could be revealed and discussed in great detail - but that is not our purpose here. Pray for all men, even your enemies. Let's hold to a substantial discussion of the issues, not to the personalities.

Fr David Moser

Andreas Moran

29-10-2007, 12:46 AM

Nina

29-10-2007, 12:57 AM

Point taken, Father, though I think, if I may say so, that there is a difference between being a sinner - and I am worst among them - and slandering one of the greatest in the family of Orthodox Churches.

I do not understand. Slandering one of the greatest... ? Greatest sinner, greatest figure, greatest saint?
Please explain for me dear Andreas.

Andreas Moran

29-10-2007, 01:54 AM

Nina said:
I do not understand. Slandering one of the greatest... ? Greatest sinner, greatest figure, greatest saint?
Please explain for me dear Andreas.

Father David said:
we are all sinners and we all have faults

Dear Nina,

I agree with Father David that I was tempted to descend into criticism of a personality rather than sticking with the issues. I was angry, though justifiably, I believe. If someone says that MP has no grace, that is slandering MP for the reasons I have given. By its numbers but much more so by its recent history, the Russian Church is great among the family of Orthodox Churches, is it not? To say that a canonical Orthodox Church has no grace is surely to deny the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit in that Church and, logically, by extension, in the Churches with which it is in communion, so to say that the Church lacks grace is akin to blasphemy, is it not? It is saying that what the Church does is not by the Holy Spirit. It seems to me that such a view is not only a sin but an injurious defamation - something more than a sin, more than a fault. Perhaps I'm wrong and the distinction I saw cannot be drawn. I didn't mention 'greatest saint' or 'greatest figure' in my post. After all is said and done, I'm trying to defend - however ineptly - our sister Church.

Nina

29-10-2007, 05:14 AM

Dear Andreas,

You did not have to make all that explanation for me, please. I was not sure what you meant and was trying to understand, frankly. You know that I am not ok with slanders towards the Church, its people, its holy people, or nations. I have my own sins though.

Nicolaj

29-10-2007, 01:03 PM

Nina

30-10-2007, 02:49 AM

Dear Brethren!

Being a western convert, I am thanking the Lord every day for given to me this secrets of Orthodoxy! Some people as becoming orthodox for they don't have a platform to preach their heretic insights and try this in Orthodoxy.
Thank God that he has given the orthodox Churches ways to handle such 'problems'! And that He has always be a tender and loving Father to the sinners, as He is always to me, the first among sinners.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

Well... like a dear person just told me and what has always been my belief is that we are all converts. Greeks were pagans, Russians something else and so on. Only Israel were the chosen people of God. But even when we are Orthodox, we have to daily convert from a life of sin.

Dear Nicolaj,

You are a dear and precious brother in Christ with your love for Orthodoxy and Its teachings. I am blessed to know you here and hear your words.

Albert Hein

12-11-2007, 11:03 AM

Dear Brethren!

Being a western convert, I am thanking the Lord every day for given to me this secrets of Orthodoxy! Some people as becoming orthodox for they don't have a platform to preach their heretic insights and try this in Orthodoxy.
Thank God that he has given the orthodox Churches ways to handle such 'problems'! And that He has always be a tender and loving Father to the sinners, as He is always to me, the first among sinners.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

All people are converts. God has no grandchildren. No one will piggy back into heaven. Orthodoxy is not about ethnicity. It is for ALL people. To the Jews first, then the Gentiles. It's not an ethnic social club for Greek dancing. It is the bride of Christ. It's time people start acting like it. Especially the Greek Archdiocese.