Lucifer as an angel of music?

[Andrew Kisliakov]

Dear all,

Have any Orthodox Fathers written on this topic?

I've seen references to this idea but would like to find out where it comes from.

[James Blackstock]

Dear all,

Have any Orthodox Fathers written on this topic?

I've seen references to this idea but would like to find out where it comes from.


Dear Andrew:

This is the main source of the information you seek;

Ezek 28:13-15
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
KJV

InXC,
Seraphim

[Michael Stickles]

In addition to pipes, the verse James quoted also mentions tabrets, which (according to a site I checked out) are percussion instruments similar to tambourines. Another source is Isaiah 14:9-14, which is also seen by many as an allegorical reference to Lucifer:


Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

(according to the same site, the "viol" is in the same class as the lyre, lute, and harp with only slight differences, mainly the number of strings)

Not sure what the Fathers' take on this is.

In Christ,
Mike

[Olga]

From the Ezekiel passage: of thy tabrets and of thypipes is rendered in the Greek Septuagintas τούς θησαυρούς σου καί τάς αποθήκας σου. Trans: of your treasures and of your storehouses.

From Isaiah: and the noise of thy viols in the LXX is ή πολλή ευφροσήνη σου. Trans: your abundant gladness (or, to use a more quaint term, good cheer

It seems that any musical connotations are tenuous in the LXX, if not non-existent. This reminds me of the passage in Psalm 33, which I've seen (correctly) translated as "Rich men may become poor and go hungry...", yet in some English versions, it is rendered as "Young lions may lack and go hungry ....". Very odd.

[Angie]

I personally don't like or listen to music at all. I do however, love chanting church music.

+Angela

[Michael Stickles]

Good point, Olga -- I hadn't thought to check the Septuagint. Well, that might explain why nobody has found anything on this in the writings of the Fathers. The concept might not have appeared until after the first OT translations from the Hebrew texts.

[Nina]

From Isaiah: and the noise of thy viols in the LXX is ή πολλή ευφροσήνη σου. Trans: your abundant gladness (or, to use a more quaint term, good cheer


Hmm... why do I love this? Thanks a lot Olga for posting this!

[Angie]

From the Ezekiel passage: of thy tabrets and of thypipes is rendered in the Greek Septuagintas τούς θησαυρούς σου καί τάς αποθήκας σου. Trans: of your treasures and of your storehouses.

From Isaiah: and the noise of thy viols in the LXX is ή πολλή ευφροσήνη σου. Trans: your abundant gladness (or, to use a more quaint term, good cheer

It seems that any musical connotations are tenuous in the LXX, if not non-existent. This reminds me of the passage in Psalm 33, which I've seen (correctly) translated as "Rich men may become poor and go hungry...", yet in some English versions, it is rendered as "Young lions may lack and go hungry ....". Very odd. What does this mean?

Angela+

[Nina]

Is it a sin if music makes us feel good?

[Paul Cowan]

No.

The Cherubic Hymn makes me feel good. The Christ is risen from the dead definitely makes me feel good.

Twisted sister and led zepplin do not make me feel good. Actually pretty icky. Music in and of itself is not a sin. How we respond to it or allow our ears to be bombarded with can be.

What is music? Beethoven? Bach? The Beach Boys? Beatles? Alice Cooper? ACDC?

We must be careful what our passive receptors the eyes and ears are subjected to. Rap music is bad. (a judgement) John Denver, not so bad? Childhood euphoric recall typically makes you feel good. But even here, we must be careful what that recall brings about in our passions.

Paul