'I will not speak of this mystery...'

[Maria Murray]

Every time in our pre-communion prayer we say "... I will not speak of this mystery to your enemies, nor like Judas will I give you a kiss..." .
Every time I say this prayer, I wonder what exactly it means. To what extent should we not speak of the mystery and who are the enemies? This makes me wonder if we should not even engage in discussions regarding the Eucharist with non-Orthodox, or does this apply only to those who are hostile? To what extent is it permissible to speak about Holy Communion? Am I over-reacting? Any help would be appreciated.

Maria

[Paul Cowan]

I was recently talking to a Baptist and a Mormon about our respective beliefs. We had a discussion about communion and I was silent as they described their understanding and practices. One uses crackers and grape juice, the other uses loaf bread and water. When they asked what the Eucharist was to me, I told them the actual body and blood of christ. They said "you can't be serious. You don't mean the actual blood and flesh of Jesus." I affirmed it was and they both looked at me like I had lost my mind. We were silent after that on religion.

Paul

[Andreas Moran]

Did you not say, in the form of bread and wine?

[Nina]

Dear Maria,

Paul's example is a good one. Maybe Fathers here can elaborate more. Until we present some source from the Fathers, I remember to have been taught that it is because the people are not initiated in our faith Orthodoxy, therefore it is for their benefit. Not that people are enemy, but just uninitiated, therefore to protect them from the sin of blasphemy etc.

When we are baptized we receive grace from God through this Mystery, we also are initiated in Orthodoxy and we are later taught to observe the commandments of God (like Christ Himself told to the Apostles before His Holy Ascensions Mathew 28:19-20). All these first steps are necessary for us so we can experience as light the Light of God. In case of adult baptism, in the Orthodox Tradition, before the person was baptized there was so much preparation and purging of the old self, and preparation for purification with many steps and examination and prayer. All these to prepare the person for receiving the Mysteries starting with the Mystery of Baptism.

But without any initiation whatsoever all these things (knowledge, experience) might be too hard to digest and the person might experience the burning effect of the Light of God (the Uncreated Light) and not the illuminating effect. Even (as the Apostle wrote) for those initiated, but who are still babes in faith certain things are too hard to digest. Everything in God's time.

When Christ came on earth, (we are taught by the Fathers), He out of compassion did not reveal His glory to His Apostles right away because they would not have been able to bear it. During the Metamorphosis not all of the Apostles participated because they did not have the entirety of the preparation, they were not yet ready. They needed the necessary preparation and initiation before Christ would reveal much more to them. Although in a couple of cases, like Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos explains, Christ revealed a small part of His glory which prompted Saint Peter for example to say: "Depart from me O Lord because I am a sinner!" Or when it is said in the New Testament that He showed His face, means (according to the Fathers) that Christ revealed part of His glory.

We all need the necessary preparation. For the uninitiated people is difficult because like when we are in complete darkness and someone turns on a light and our eyes and face is under shock and confusion, so for them is difficult to adjust right away to some new advanced (such as Mysteries) spiritual knowledge. The shock and confusion will not produce curiosity and attraction, instead those might have the opposite effect. As we know even the Catechumens according to the Tradition were supposed to leave the church after the homily of the priest after the reading of the Gospel. This is for their benefit. This practice is followed in monasteries here in US but I do not know about parishes. Maybe someone can share.

[Robert Rager]

I was given to understand it having a historical connotation, from when Christians had to meet in secret during times of persecution. If the authorities knew where the liturgy was taking place & who was attending, there could be arrests, imprisonment and/or execution.

[Paul Cowan]

Did you not say, in the form of bread and wine?

No.
And as I was saying it I was thinking of everyone here and how you all would have responded. I kept fighting within myself to just say it or to sugar coat it and not make it come out so "real". I know I (we) are different. I felt I needed to let them know it is more than symbolic. It is really Him we are partaking of. I guess I need to brush up more on my evangelistic skills. It is kinda hard to "sell" our beliefs to non-Orthodox if I freak them out with my first sentence.

Paul

[Mary]

No.
And as I was saying it I was thinking of everyone here and how you all would have responded. I kept fighting within myself to just say it or to sugar coat it and not make it come out so "real". I know I (we) are different. I felt I needed to let them know it is more than symbolic. It is really Him we are partaking of. I guess I need to brush up more on my evangelistic skills. It is kinda hard to "sell" our beliefs to non-Orthodox if I freak them out with my first sentence.

Paul

LOL =) I don't think we need to worry about selling. That's too protestant, it's oppressive. I love this quote I found the other day:


When you have become God's in the measure he desires, then he himself will bestow you upon others; unless, to your greater glory, he choose to keep you all to himself.
- St Basil the Great I was hoping that meant I didn't have to talk to anyone about anything. But today, I was 'talking' to my brother in Ethiopia (by IM), and he was telling me how mom is getting on his nerves and he wanted to know what to do. I tried to brush it off and keep the conversation light-hearted, but he said he was serious, and really needed an answer. I realized then, that the instructions I myself had received on how to deal with rough relationships, were way too harsh to dump on him without simplifying it. So I just started, with the Orthodox view of Salvation = Healing, and Church = Hospital and it seemed to go well. Much better than if I'd told him to stop whining about mom and start working on his own sinfulness first. I also refrained from telling him that he has to become Orthodox to truly get well, for we have the True Medicine, the Eucharist. =)

I like how Nina said it in her post above. There's stuff that we can take, that they just can't, because they aren't ready for it. Not yet.

It also helps to remember how I myself was taught. The whole Church and all Her doctrines weren't dumped on me all at once. I had a need. I asked for an answer. And I received simple instructions on how to deal with my problems. And as I obeyed those simple instructions, I got hooked... and soon, nothing less than Orthodoxy could satisfy.

[Andreas Moran]

We have to remember that Anglicans and Protestants long ago lost the sense of mystery which the Orthodox Church has kept in its fulness. Without a sense of the mysterious, how can they accept this mystery?

[Nicolaj]

Dear Andreas, dear Brethren!

You give them the right description! And you are so right mentioning that they don't have any sense for the mystery.

And that is why we pray this over and over again in the liturgy. Sure it has an historic dimension also, as every thing in the Holy Liturgy. But the real meaning is today as actual as for almost 2000 years in the catacombs, the enemy is outside the walls of the church and he tries to steal this mystery from you! He tries to take away from your heart this very mystery, the seal of believing!
And once he gets you questioning and doubting about this very mystery he is near to you to lead you into his kingdom of darkness!

This part of the liturgy was in the catacombs only attended by the believers who where baptised after most years of being catechumen. They were aware of the risk being Christian and they put all the power to resist from this very mystery!
And so Mary the answer is that it is only to speak about this Holy Mystery among Brethren. Don't give jewels to the pigs!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Maria Murray]

Dear all, thank you for your insightful replies. This does help me understand this better. I do know that when this comes up in conversations from time to time, it's better not to elaborate. Perhaps I thought more about this recently because someone asked why is it that many people who never received the 'true' Body and Blood of Christ, as we believe, actually have great faith and show a significant life change. How do we know if we are being faithful in not speaking of the mystery vs. we're being an obstacle to someone of their way to Orthodoxy because we were silent. This part confuses me.

[Father David Moser]

There is one thing that tends to bother me a little about this thread and that is the assumption (or seeming assumption) that anyone who is not Orthodox is the "enemy" and thus we shouldn't speak with them about the mysteries. I don't think that this is the case. There are many who are not Orthodox who are not hostile to our Lord, but rather they are misled or even simply untaught. I don't believe there is any prohibition expressed or implied in speaking with others outside the Church who are sympathetic to Christ. Even when we don't agree about dogma, still there is room for discussion. Sometimes it is not wise to go into the depths of dogmatic analysis about the Mysteries, but that's the case with anyone - even Orthodox Christians.

When the prayer says "I will not speak of Thy Mysteries to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss..." there are a whole range of things that we haven't considered. Remember it is not our "enemies" about which we are speaking here - but rather the enemies of Christ, those who are hostile to our Lord Jesus Christ, not those who are seeking Him (even in their own mistaken way). Thus I think, if we are to look at just this phrase, we have to make a differentiation between those who wish only to mock Christ or to crucify Him again and bury Him so deep He'll never get out (as if that were possible) on one hand and those who do not know Him but are seeking Him on the other.

Secondly let's not stop at just this phrase, but consider the entire sentence, "I will not speak of Thy Mysteries to Thine Enemies, nor give Thee a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief will I confess Thee..." This prayer speaks more about the condition of our own heart more than simply who we do and do not speak to. To "give a kiss as did Judas" enlightens the meaning of the previous phrase about talking and shows us that the intent here is that we are praying that we do not become hypocrites who "follow" Christ in one moment and "deny" Him the next (by receiving the Mysteries but not changing our sinful lives for example) as did Judas. When we consider the third phrase in addition to the previous two, that is reinforced for it brings in the image of the two thieves crucified with Christ, one who cursed and mocked Him and the other who repented and confessed Him to be God. We ask that we may be found to be like the latter rather than the former - that we might repent of our sins and confess Jesus Christ as the Son of God not only by our words but with the entirety of our lives.

This prayer is not really about who we do and do not talk to about the Holy Mysteries, it is about our own heart, whether we are the "enemy" of Christ, whether we are hypocrites who confess and deny with the same tongue, whether we mock Him or repent and confess Him. I guess the best question to ask when praying this prayer is not "Who are the enemies of Christ?" but "Am I an enemy of Christ?"

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

Yes, Father David is right because Judas indeed was dipping his bread in the same bowl with Christ and still betrayed Him. And like Robert says the word enemy has an historical origin. So it is better not to concentrate on that word since as Father says we are Christ's enemies ourselves by receiving Him, and next betraying Him with our sins. Still I think that if the person is uninitiated we must be careful about things we reveal to them. As we are careful with children when they are Orthodox, like others were careful with us like Mary says that they did not overwhelm us with lots of information before we could be ready for that. Like the Apostle writes there are babes even in faith. Even I that like to think that I have developed a taste for things and have stronger stomach, can not sometimes digest many spiritual matters. This can prove spiritually regressive, or progressive - it depends on how much we allow God to work with our hearts. This is true for us Orthodox and those who are not Orthodox. Father David is right when he emphasizes that it is Christ's enemies and not ours. And like Nicolaj mentions pigs who do not appreciate pearls. For example, I was taught to refuse someone whom I might hypothetically know that is a sorcerer that asks me to bring things from the church to him/her, or might give me candles to light in the church, or other things. Because these people are involved in witchcraft and they want to bring evil spirits in the House of God. This has never happened to me but still I was taught that lesson, because such people do things like that with a bad intention like some did the same with Holy Communion - I think one of the reasons we receive antidoron is to assure that people do not bring Holy Communion outside and perform sacrilegious acts with it.

Dear Maria,

You write:


How do we know if we are being faithful in not speaking of the mystery vs. we're being an obstacle to someone of their way to Orthodoxy because we were silent. This part confuses me.I can relate to you because so many times I really do not know what to do and many times I feel like instead of helping I ruined things. However, pray to God to give you discernment in that case. You know I have read that when we confess our spiritual father is praying to God to enlighten him to tell us God's will. Now, for sure we can not be compared to a priest (his grace from the Mystery of Priesthood, experience, relationship with God etc.) but at least we can emulate this and when we have such delicate matters being discussed, say a little prayer in your mind like Jesus Prayer, because the grace of the prayer you say will envelope you all (this is said by Elder Porphyrios but not for this case) that are discussing about Orthodoxy. And the bottom line is, if you know the person who is asking you questions, you can choose to reveal as much as they can digest. Always less is better, for their own good so they do not feel overdosed. When babies are bottle-fed there is only a small opening and the stream of food is tiny. When we grow up we can have more food and sips are bigger. However we still can not consume a river even when we are fully grown adults. Try to give them little bits of information so you can make them come back to Orthodoxy for more and who knows what happens, God wiling and with His grace. Try to do your best and allow God to work with them; leave things in His hands. Because He takes even our worst sins and turns them into positive things for the salvation of people; even more so our good intentions and contribution.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Father,

You seemed to address a few things that caught my attention as well, I was composing this post prior to your post being posted so we had some of the same things in mind it seems.

Dear Nicolaj,


And so Mary the answer is that it is only to speak about this Holy Mystery among Brethren. Don't give jewels to the pigs!

"... I will not speak of this mystery to your enemies, nor like Judas will I give you a kiss..."

The enemy or enemies of God is the Devil and the Demons. People that are not Orthodox Brethren are not pigs, they are made in the image and likeness of God. Mans enemies are the Devil and the Demons as well, that is when he seeks not to serve them. So even those that are not Orthodox Brethren have a common enemy with the Orthodox Brethren, the problem is that the heretics do not struggle against the Devil but serve him and the other fallen angels especially when they oppose the Orthodox faith. The heretics are deceived and fall as well and want others to fall with them. They serve the devil in many ways, false doctrines, crowned with such things, they often seek to remove Orthodox sheep from the true Church, so they are the ememy. Like Judas they give Christ a kiss, but they are often simply misguided, so we forgive, even if they know what they are doing we individually forgive knowing that they really don't know what they are saying or doing. I have found that to be the most peaceful approach. Should the Church need to speak out and draw lines certainly our Hierarchs and those with such authority have done so historically and will continue to do so. The spirit of arrogance blinds and that's really what happens with heretics, they think they know more than the Church, the Church Father's, the Bishops etc. Yet the spirit of humility illuminates, so the Chalice is to be approached in humility, one can read the complete canon before and after receiving the Holy communion for instruction on how things are to be understood, however reading it, thinking about it and praying it are two different things it seems. One way leads to more and more discussions and the other way leads to wars and thanks be to God peace.


This prayer is not really about who we do and do not talk to about the Holy Mysteries

Father, I think it is about who we "talk to about the Holy Mysteries" insofar as we are intimately involved with those within the fold, our Orthodox Brethren understand Orthodoxy by being in the Church to different extents perhaps, but we do have much more in common namely the one and same Chalice. We give thanks to God together in the Orthodox way, we often understand one another in ways that the heterodox simple can't understand. In the Church at least in the parishes that I have lived in, we do not sit around talking about what we think about the Eucharist. Here on Monachos it is different though, it is almost like a congregational gathering where many things can be discussed, that simply does not happen in regular parish life.

So we speak of the mystery to God's enemies when we are high minded, thinking that our intellects can understand things by searching things out. God will reveal in His wisdom that which should be revealed, faith, patience and trusting in God and His wisdom seems and is wise. It is written that "Love is patient, love is kind." From what I can tell so far forced knowledge or revelations are often very false. In the West there seems to be a tendency of freedom of thought, talk about things or explore things since God gave us a mind. There is also a tendency to push for things, material and even knowledge. We see at University the push to learn more that is why a person is there, in business to push for more, etc. everything is more, more, more. Yet the Monks that I have known Greeks, Serbs and Russians tend strongly to advise not to explore all sorts of thoughts or ideas, in short don't trust your own thinking is something I've heard many times. I'm not advocating sitting in back yard on pillar for the next fifty years, but we need not push for so much so often, save against sin. It is difficult to be vile when a man doesn't want to be vile and sinful, that is the narrow way the Orthodox Christian struggle.


I would think that if people here have friends that are not Orthodox Brethren whom they love that rather then speaking of the mysteria of the Eucharist that other mysteries could be discussed. Let the Holy ones, the Church Fathers and Saints speak about that which is most Holy. From the Church Fathers and the lives of the Saints we learn that the sign of the cross as simple of a movement that it is it drives away the demons, why not simply show them how to make the sign of the cross, explain what it means, so they can get to work.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[M.C. Steenberg]

I want to thank Fr David for a most thoughtful and wonderful post - and its necessary corrective, as well. I was extremely grateful for your words on this topic.

The notion of setting words in the context of liturgical act is essential. This prayer is recited in the Divine Liturgy at the approach to the chalice. In the two most common traditions in which it is used (and it is not used universally in all traditions), it is said either twice: once by the clergy at the altar prior to their communion, and then together with all the faithful when the chalice is brought through the Holy Doors; or once, with clergy and people together, the clergy at the altar and the people awaiting the arrival of the chalice.


In either case, the connection of the words to the act of physically receiving Christ is central. I may not be about to touch or embrace Christ in a usual way (i.e. to touch an arm, embrace); but I receive him in truth, physically, his own flesh and blood to mine. And immediately before this, we say:
"I will not speak of thy mysteries to thine enemies,
neither like Judas will I give thee a kiss;
but like the thief I will confess thee:
'Remember me, Lord, when thou comest in thy Kingdom."

As Fr David so rightly noted, this is not a prayer about dialogue with others; it is a prayer about one's approach to Christ. I am about to encounter him in the most direct way possible -- what shall I do with this encounter?

Shall I, like those who encountered him in Galilee and saw his miracles, take the encounter away as a thing to be used against him? If so, it is not their anger or ignorance that is to blame, not their 'otherness' or being 'outside' as enemies that is the problem; rather, it is I who am at fault, for becoming the enemy of Christ by attempting to make this mystery my own tool - my thing to manipulate.

Shall I, like Judas, make my own physical encounter with Christ - like his physical kiss on Christ's cheek - into a thing of betrayal and condemnation? If so, it is not Judas that I am condemning, but myself. It will be I, not he, who touches Christ at the chalice, attempting to transform that encounter to my own manipulations and ends.

Or shall I, like the thief, who in a single moment of encounter received the Kingdom, receive this Eucharist encounter as a reality that will transform my very existence? If so, then perhaps, like the thief, I will hear the words, 'Today you will be with me in Paradise'.

This is not a prayer about whom one is to talk to. It is a prayer about how one is to meet Christ, and receive him at the chalice.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Nina]

Mary, how was that quote recently from Fr. Dcn. Matthew that we liked? The quote said something like "... for Judas bred... while for the thief...".

[Mary]

Mary, how was that quote recently from Fr. Dcn. Matthew that we liked? The quote said something like "... for Judas bred... while for the thief...".

Recent? Perhaps I was in a time warp then, for that seems to be in a previous lifetime. Is this the one you're thinking of?


This is, in point of fact, precisely what others had been saying. There are few who would deny that in the main body of Christian traditions, humanity encounters Christ – the one Christ, the true Christ. But encounter involves not only the who, but the how. Christ’s life is filled with example – litanies in the Gospels – of those who encountered him, for whom that encounter filled them with full truth and life (Mary Magdalene, the Centurion), contrasted with those who encountered him, for whom the encounter offered less (the rich man) – or for whom the encounter bred falsehood (the Pharisees), or for whom it bred death (Judas). All encountered the one Christ, but the how how that encounter rendered its experience fruitful in different ways.
INXC, Dcn Matthew

That's from the Ecclesiological Dogma, East and West thread. If you're thinking of something else, then I'm totally clueless.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Nina]

Recent? Perhaps I was in a time warp then, for that seems to be in a previous lifetime. Is this the one you're thinking of?



That's from the Ecclesiological Dogma, East and West thread. If you're thinking of something else, then I'm totally clueless.

In Christ,
Mary.

Yes. Thank you. That's the quote that applies somehow here also.

[Nicolaj]

"I will not speak of thy mysteries to thine enemies,
neither like Judas will I give thee a kiss;
but like the thief I will confess thee:
'Remember me, Lord, when thou comest in thy Kingdom."


This is not a prayer about whom one is to talk to. It is a prayer about how one is to meet Christ, and receive him at the chalice.

Yes it is prayer about one's and my approach towards Christ and how He is alive in the mysteries. But I carry it with me when I go outside, and it still speaks to me. And this has nothing to do with being ignorant to those who do not believe the way as I do. But it has a lot to do with being pious about the way I handle the mysteries! The Mysteries of Faith are a treasure and they should be taken care of this way, the most precious treasure we have! And this is also the way the Fathers handled the Mysteries!

And sure, if one like to get familiar with the Mysteries of the Church he can get informed by books and so. But why must I be the one to speak to them about this Mysteries and be sure that they can not understand it because they come from a total different background. I talk to them about the things they can understand, like Paul said about having the right food at the right moment. Also the Fathers talk this way in their catechesis towards the catechumens, the mystery of the Blood and the Body received is the most holy and almost always the last to be teached.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj