Typikon: differences between St Savvas and Constantinople versions

[Kosta]

I was wondering whether anyone knows the differences between the Typicon of St Saavas used by most monasteries and churches with the Typicon of the Great Church of Constantinople used by the church of Greece and those under the E.P.

Basically what will the laity or celebrant priests notice between the two? What is revised and/or omitted etc?

Also is the Typicon of Constantinople used in Cyprus?

[Andrew]

I was wondering whether anyone knows the differences between the Typicon of St Saavas used by most monasteries and churches with the Typicon of the Great Church of Constantinople used by the church of Greece and those under the E.P.

Basically what will the laity or celebrant priests notice between the two? What is revised and/or omitted etc?

Also is the Typicon of Constantinople used in Cyprus?

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to liturgics, typicon, etc. I think the EP typicon is shortened; I think it lacks the singing of the Beatitudes and the dismissal of the catechumens. Someone correct me if I'm wrong!

I think this is a good article on differences in celebration of the Liturgy among the Greeks and the Slavic Churches:
http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/krivoshein-greekandrussian.html

[Anthony]

There is some information in the thread on antiphons and matins (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3812).

[Kosta]

I'll look at the links, Thanx for your responses!

[Olga]

I do not wish to sound presumptious, but the article Andrew refers to does contain some glaring errors, which I am happy to point out at a later post.

[Andrew]

I do not wish to sound presumptious, but the article Andrew refers to does contain some glaring errors, which I am happy to point out at a later post.

Again, the most that I know in regards to Liturgics is singing along with what goes on in the Liturgy and serving in the Altar. Please correct for us the errors in that article.

[Olga]

Below are excerpts in italics from the article “Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance”, with accompanying comments of mine.

Following the 1838 reform, the Greeks (except the Athonite monks who kept the old order) replaced Psalms 102/103 ("Bless the Lord, O my soul") and 145/146 ("Praise the Lord, O my soul") as well as the Beatitudes, which follow, by antiphons, i.e. brief appeals to the Mother of God or to Christ, who is risen and is praised in His saints. The Russians continue to sing, each Sunday, the two noted psalms and the Beatitudes. They are replaced by antiphons only at great feasts or on weekdays. The dropping of the psalms and the Beatitudes has the advantage (if it can actually be considered the advantage) of shortening the Divine Liturgy. However, it pays to regretfully note that the Liturgy of the Catechumens thus loses its didactic and Biblical character, both Old and New Testamentary, which must be a part of it. The same can be said about the 1838 reform's deletion of the prayers for the catechumens. It becomes unclear why the first part of the Liturgy continues to be called "Liturgy of the Catechumens." We will note that the Athonite Greek monks continue to pray for the catechumens during Liturgy throughout the whole year.

I do not profess to be an authority on liturgical history, but perhaps the reason for the dropping of the prayers for the catechumens by the Greeks may be as much due to the monocultural society that Greece was (though this is slowly changing). I hesitate to call it a manifestation of ethnophyletism, for fear of opening a can of worms. Certainly in my experience, I had never heard the prayers for the catechumens at any of the Greek churches I have attended over many years, until, in the last three or four years, where in one parish, the newly-installed priest has reinstated them.

Another feature, which we will note, occurs during the Liturgy of the Faithful, during the Cherubic Hymn. Here the differences in behaviour become noticeable immediately. When the hymn begins, the Greeks have the habit of sitting down while the Russians love to kneel.

Greeks do indeed sit at the Cherubic Hymn, but I have not seen Russians kneel at this point in any of the Russian/Slavic churches I have attended.

The same can be said about one of the first phrases of the Eucharistic Canon. It is read differently, at least in our time, by the Greeks and the Russians:”Έλαιον ειρήνης, θυσίαν αινέσεως", which means "Oil of peace, sacrifice of praise" (in Greek) and "Mercy of peace, sacrifice of praise" (in Russian). It is obvious that this is the result of orthographic confusion that occurred in Greek manuscripts between the two words, which in Byzantine Greek, although written differently, were pronounced identically (although with different endings: elaion - oil and eleos - mercy). Similar confusions, called "iotacisms," occur very frequently. It is almost a certainty that the form elaion (oil) is the original and primary one, while eleos (mercy) is erroneous or more likely, a wilful new introduction by a copyist who wanted to "enhance" the text. Here we see a classical example of the evolution of a literal Biblical text into a symbolic and a spiritualised one. This is the most unlikely case of a "reversed" evolution -- from a simple to a complex. Russian copyists and liturgists preferred the spiritualised form (mercy and not oil) and adapted it to the Slavonic Liturgy. However, it would be a mistake to think that it is precisely the Slavonic copyists to whom the "honour" of such "enhancement" belongs. This first occurred among the Greeks, and the witness to this is that Nicholas Cabasilas is well aware of this in his "A Commentary on the Divine Liturgy" (14th century). Although he does not literally cite this passage but paraphrases it, his paraphrase shows that he reads it as "mercy" and not "oil." This becomes more evident in the following passage: "We offer mercy," Cabasilas says, "to Him who said: I will have mercy and not sacrifice... We also offer the sacrifice of praise" (P.G. 150, 396 AB).

In any of the documents I have at hand, I have only come across the word eleon, (note the spelling) which is derived from the Greek word eleos (mercy), not elaion (olive or olive oil). Not sure where the author got the idea that the original form was “oil”. Given that almost every word in the Liturgy is from scripture, it seems very odd to me that “oil” could ever have been the original form, due to the complete match of the scripture passage “I will have mercy and not sacrifice” with the opening words of the hymn. Perhaps there may exist earlier liturgical documents e.g. from Athos which may shed some light on this.

More could be said about the liturgical differences in other services (Vespers, Matins, Hours, etc.) between the Greeks and Russians but, in order not to expand our presentation too much, we will note that at least in parish practice the main difference is that the Greeks celebrate Vespers in the evening, on the eve of Sundays and feasts, and begin the next day with Matins and go into the Liturgy immediately following the Great Doxology, thus omitting the Hours. The Russians, however, celebrate what they call "The All-night Vigil," i.e. Vespers and Matins combined, which is not a service that lasts all night.

(... at least, not in parish churches. Vigils in monasteries, Greek and Slavic, can last anywhere from four to eight hours.)

Among the Greeks, the people especially like two services that attract large crowds of people: this is the Hymn of Cassiane ("Lord, the woman having fallen into a multitude of sins...") on the one hand and the solemn procession with the Burial Shroud in the evening of Holy Friday on the other. It can be said that for the ordinary Greek, these two services constitute the more important moments of the whole Passion Week. The hymn of the sinful woman is especially loved, and many laymen know it verbatim and like to sing it. Newspapers write about it when describing the services of Passion Week. More or less the same can be said about the procession with the Shroud. It is not merely carried around the temple but the procession goes on for miles, escorted by thousands of the faithful holding lighted candles and singing the burial hymns.

Among the Russians this is done somewhat differently, not so much in the meaning of the services and hymns, which are almost identical, but in relation to their place in popular piety. Thus Cassiane's hymn, which among the Greeks occupies a central place, is likewise sung by the Russians but does not attract the same degree of attention on the part of the faithful, many of whom are even not familiar with it. It is simply one of the hymns of Passion Week, all of which are splendid. However, among the Russians, the Vigil of Great Friday (actually in the evening of Great Thursday) attains especially great significance. The so-called "Twelve Gospels" is one of the most beloved and best-attended Passion Week services.

The service of the "Twelve Gospels" is also very important for the Greeks but less so than for the Russians.

Not in my experience! Greeks and Russians attend this service with equal enthusiasm.

As for Great Friday, for the Russians, the most important service for that day is not the Burial of Christ (in the afternoon) as among the Greeks, although it is very moving and attracts many people (there are no lengthy processions), but the procession with the Burial Shroud in the evening. This attracts a great number of faithful and it has a greater meaning for the spiritual content of Passion Week.

If anything, the reverse is true. The Epitaphios service (evening of Great Friday) with the procession ranks as popular as the Resurrection. Far fewer Greeks attend the Apokathelosis (Vespers of Great Friday). By contrast, Russians flock to this service, with many older women in tears during the procession of the Plashchanitsa (Burial Shroud) while the choir slowly and solemnly sings the troparion Blagoobrazniy Iosif (Noble Joseph). The numbers thin out for the Great Friday evening service. The procession with the Plashchanitsa still occurs, but in a more circumspect manner than the Greeks (around the church, instead of around the block).

The Liturgy of St Basil the Great on Great Saturday with the reading of fifteen Paremii -- lessons from the Old Testament (reduced to three by the Greeks, except in Athos, in accordance with the 1838 Typikon) is not too well attended notwithstanding its theological riches and depth.

Really? On Holy Saturday morning, Greek churches are overflowing, though the reason is more likely to be practical rather than spiritual. This is the last rush to have Holy Communion before the Resurrection, as few Greeks stay on for the Liturgy of the Resurrection.

I will move to the exposition of my theme from another point of view: the place of the veneration of the Mother of God in the noted variations. Here one needs to take note of a novelty recently introduced by the Zoe Brotherhood under obvious Protestant influences, which is quite common in the parishes of major Greek cities but not found in Athos. This is the traditional Orthodox expression "Most Holy Mother of God, save us" being replaced by "Most Holy Mother of God, pray for us," which diminishes the veneration of the Mother of God. This latter form "pray for us" is in no way heretical. It is found in many prayers to the Mother of God. But when it is used to replace "save us," it gains the appearance of an anti-Theotokian coloration. An earlier parallel trend can be found in the 1838 Typikon's direction. The feast of the Annunciation, in the light of its significance in the work of our salvation -- "the beginning of our salvation" and its context, can never be moved to another date even if it coincided with Great Friday, Great Saturday or Pascha itself. Changing the ancient practice, the 1838 Typikon, reasoning that such a coincidence would result in liturgical difficulties taxing the abilities of the rural clergy to cope with them, directs that in such cases the feast of the Annunciation be moved to the second day of Bright Week. This innovation, accepted in Greece, was rejected by the Athonite monks who found that this diminishes the feast of the Annunciation and thus diminishes the role of the Mother of God in our salvation.

I have never come across the usage “Most-holy Mother of God, pray for us” as a refrain in any canons to the Mother of God, either for the Annunciation, or for any of her feasts or from the Ochtoikh.

It can be shown that the feast of the Annunciation itself is observed with greater solemnity among the Greeks than among the Russians.

This may also be largely due to the 25th of March being Greek Independence Day, commemorating the day of the raising of the rebellion in 1821 against Ottoman rule. The date was not chosen at random. The uprising was orchestrated by laymen and clergy, who deliberately chose the date as a symbol of Hellenic renewal after nearly 400 years of domination. The battle standard of a blue cross on a white background was provided by Bishop (Metropolitan)Germanos of Old Patras, who took down the curtain hanging across the Royal Doors of the Aghia Lavra monastery church. Later, the colours were reversed to form the national flag of independent Greece.

I have posted these comments not as a presumption (I am certainly NOT the font of all wisdom on such matters!), but to compare the differences between the article and my experiences and observations in attending both Greek and Russian churches over many years. Corrections and comments are, of course, welcome, particularly by forum members living in Greece, Russia or other Slavic countries.

[Kris]

Certainly in my experience, I had never heard the prayers for the catechumens at any of the Greek churches I have attended over many years, until, in the last three or four years, where in one parish, the newly-installed priest has reinstated them.

In my church they are not normally read aloud, but for the past few Sundays they have been. I'm not sure if this is a decison made by His Eminence to restore them or if all Greek parishes read them on those particular days.

[Kosta]

Dear Olga,

I agree with what you pointed out. The portion about the Annunciation doesnt seem right altogether. The author claims the greeks celebrate it with more solemnity. I cant say this to be true. For the most part Greek Independance Day eclipses the Feast of the Annunciation . There are parades not only in Greece but everywhere where there is a sizeable greek community. And i can't say the festivities and parades associated with the secular holiday of Independace are solemn and they usually drag out till night (so no time for church in general).

[Nicolaj]

Dear Brethren,

I have here a fine book about the Text of the Divine Liturgy. At has side a side the text as used in the Greek orthodox church, as in use in church-Slavonic and in German. And you are right there are real gaps between Greek and church-Slavonic!

In Christ! Nicolaj

[Yuri Zharikov]

Bretheren, Sisters,
This is just to attest that in Russia in many monasteries and even some cathedrals in cities (e.g. Yekaterinburg) on the even of Great Feastdays All-night vigils are just that... without being used to such things, this can be quite a test of spiritual and physical stamina.

In the Lord,
Yura

[Nina]

Again, the most that I know in regards to Liturgics is singing along with what goes on in the Liturgy and serving in the Altar.

But that's the heart of it!

[Nina]

And i can't say the festivities and parades associated with the secular holiday of Independace are solemn and they usually drag out till night (so no time for church in general).

Kosta,

We all know that Independence from the Ottomans is not so secular holiday. The occupation endangered our faith (although it made it stronger) and placed many Orthodox to test. Many were killed and persecuted just because they did not betray their faith.

[Nina]

P.S Personally, I do not like these comparisons Russians vs Greeks. It sounds like children in the playground "My toys are gooder than yours!" :) How about we say which land was longer Orthodox, or which land has produced more saints? Of course mine although it is smaller than Russia. :p

[Olga]

P.S Personally, I do not like these comparisons Russians vs Greeks. It sounds like children in the playground "My toys are gooder than yours!" :) How about we say which land was longer Orthodox, or which land has produced more saints? Of course mine although it is smaller than Russia. :p

Nina,

My above post on this thread was intended to simply point out some inaccuracies in an article which Andrew linked to, which pointed out differences between Greek and Russian/Slavic liturgical practice. On the whole, this article is quite good, despite the inaccuracies I have pointed out.

By circumstance, I have become familiar with both the Greek and Slavic "flavours" of Orthodoxy over many years. Being exposed to a variety of expressions of Orthodox practice (canonical, of course!) is quite healthy, and goes a long way to reduce insularity and tendencies towards "super-correctness".

[Nina]

Nina,
My above post on this thread was intended to simply point out some inaccuracies in an article


Yep. That article was a problem.


For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:26-29


there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Colossians 3:11

[Nicolaj]

So true, so clear and so simple can orthodoxy be!

Amen!

Nicolaj

[Christopher]

P.S Personally, I do not like these comparisons Russians vs Greeks. It sounds like children in the playground "My toys are gooder than yours!" :) How about we say which land was longer Orthodox, or which land has produced more saints? Of course mine although it is smaller than Russia. :p

I agree with Nina . . .

Ustav/Usage varies from region to region, and even 'within' Slavic and Greek Typikons as well.

Thanks be to God for this !

When one reads an article that might be different than one's experience within their locale (Ustav/Usage), the tendency may be to say, "hey this is wrong!" ... when in fact the Typikon varies from region to region and even 'within' the Slavic and Greek Typikons on a local level.

Discussing this further -- about variations between typikons -- is neither fruitful, nor realistic when it comes to the living (daily) experience which is Orthodox Christianity, for me. Each locale has reasons for their own Typikon, AND, its Ustav/Usage, accordingly.
We want the Spirit of the Law, etc.

Please accept my forgiveness.

In Christ,
Fr. Christopher

[Matthew Panchisin]

P.S Personally, I do not like these comparisons Russians vs Greeks. It sounds like children in the playground "My toys are gooder than yours!" :)

Do keep in mind that comparisons do not necessarily have to sound like children in the playground. I don't think it is agreeable with me for several reasons.

Personally I have heard many discussions that are required and can lead to an appreciation of relationships. Many have been very fruitful and realistic in day to day Orthodox Christianity. I know of a wonderful Orthodox Church with Greeks, Russians, Serbs etc. coming together these days. Not discussing the variations with the right intentions would be just as troubling as discussing them the wrong way it seems for them anyway. Both those ways could create problems, certainly it is not a to each his own situation or isolated fruit on a tree. Certainly the Orthodox Church does not have a history of just dismissing matters collectively. Responsible dialog within the Church in many places has been part of the daily lives of Orthodox Christians.

The daily experience of Orthodox Christianity is shared from what I have been taught, if it sounds like "My toys are gooder than yours!" to anyone then all of us within the Orthodox Church should grow upwards.

There can be very serious consequences relative to what is right to dismiss and not wrongly I think. These days many are profoundly distressed over Orthodox Christians being at war in Russia and Georgia.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Matthew Panchisin]

I remain rather curious Father Christopher about several things you have mentioned.

Would you be kind enough to share with us a more complete disclosure regarding your diocese, who you are etc? I ask this insofar as it seems appropriate to discuss such things with some basic knowledge of the people we are speaking with especially for those that are addressed as Father.

Thank you in advance.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Christopher]

The daily experience of Orthodox Christianity is shared from what I have been taught, if it sounds like "My toys are gooder than yours!" to anyone then all of us within the Orthodox Church should grow upwards . . . There can be very serious consequences relative to what is right to dismiss and not wrongly I think.

Agreed. Growing onward & upward is the only Way. The Holy Apostle Paul even said, "Not as though I had already attained . . . "
St. Athanasios the Great, mentions of his Abba, St. Anthony the Great: "And he had come to this truly wonderful conclusion, 'that progress in virtue, and retirement from the world for the sake of it, ought not to be measured by time, but by desire and fixity of purpose.' He at least gave no thought to the past, but day by day, as if he were at the beginning of his discipline, applied greater pains for advancement..."

"What is right to dismiss", reminds me of a saying: "We bend with the little things, not with the big."

Nina used the word "like", meaning (forgive me) "as if" or, "likened to" . . . any with children understand this example.
"Childish" vs. "Child-like" is my hopeful goal. (St. Matthew 18:2-4)

Please forgive me, the hopeful child of Christ.

Fr. Christopher

[Michael Astley]

Dear friends,

I am currently putting together the services for my parish for next weekend. According to The Order of Divine Services, there are ten stikhera of Pentecost at Saturday Vespers, in tone 1. However, according to the Pentecostarion of Holy Transfiguration Monastery, the first four stikhera are in tone 1 while the remaining six are in tone 2. Is this a difference between Greek and Slav practice? I do not yet have the SJKP edition of the Pentecostarion to compare.

Thank you so much.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Subdcn Michael,

I don't know about the Byzantine practice but the Slav (which is what the SJKP Pentecostarion follows) has it as the first 4 stichiri on Tone 1 and the next 6 on Tone 2.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Michael Astley]

Thank you, Father Raphael.

It seems, then, that Slav and Greek practice agree and that there is an error in the ODS. They welcome feedback so I shall let them know.

Thank you.

In Christ,
Michael

[Anthony Stokes]

Sbdn. Michael,
I think the ODS usually just refers to the first sticheron, the one that sets the Tone for the intro verses of LIHC.

Sbdn. Anthony

[Michael Astley]

Thank you, Subdeacon Anthony, (good to see you :-))

Yes, that does make sense.

M

[Nick Katich]

Greeks do indeed sit at the Cherubic Hymn, but I have not seen Russians kneel at this point in any of the Russian/Slavic churches I have attended.

Olga: I have attended Liturgy at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem on two occasions. On both occasions, the Russian nuns from St. Mary Magdelene monastery were in attendance and sang responses. On both occasions, they did a full prostration during the entire Cherubim Hymn and Great Entrance.