Stained glass windows in Orthodox churches

[Father David Moser]

PS I don't see why stained glass should not be used in Orthodoxy. I have seen it in a church in a village in Cyprus, and there is an Orthodox stained glass artist who lives here in Essex, close to the monastery.

The OCA parish in Colorado Springs CO, USA (sorry the name of the parish escapes me for the moment) has (or had) etched glass icons in the windows. The panes were frosted with iconographic representations of the prophets. It was quite nice.

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

The Greek Orthodox church in my hometown has all stained glass windows with icons of the prophets and apostles made entirely from stained glass (with some paint) at the very top of each window--as the sun comes through these at different times of the day there are very wonderful hues and colors that add to services in addition to the icons painted on the walls and ceiling.

[Nina]

I seem to recall reading that traditionally blessed icons should not be painted (written) upon easily mutable media, such as glass or canvas. Traditionally, a stiff, prepared wooden board is used. Hence, stained glass, being easily broken, should be avoided. It does seem than churches in the US are employing stained glass windows. I've seen some of an iconic character and others (in my own Greek parish and in a new nearby ROCOR parish) that are not iconic in nature.


Very true. I have been told the same. Although the church I attend has stained glass and as Rick said the sunshine creates many hues. But if I needed that I would go to another place. I actually have visited some churches (Protestant) that have their stained glass directly from Mr. Tiffany. It was beautiful as artwork (like other artwork that I like). But I never felt like kneeling in helplessness in front of them like Orthodox icons make me feel.

Also many people associate stained glass with other traditions but not with Orthodoxy. And I have heard people say when they see stained glass etc. "oh but you are not different from other Christians."

[Father David Moser]

I seem to recall reading that traditionally blessed icons should not be painted (written) upon easily mutable media, such as glass or canvas.

However most of the master iconographers these days work on canvas that is then applied to the walls of the Church like wall paper. And isn't there a whole Romanian iconographic tradition that involves reverse painting on glass? While the prescription concerning wooden panels or frescoed walls might be laudable, I think that we also have to look at the needs and resources of the time and place.

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

Here's a photo of the windows that I spoke about above. And, Effie if you are reading here, I am in this photo--I promise--see if you can pick me out?



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In Christ,
Rick

[Rick H.]

Here's one that shows the windows at the top:

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[Nicolaj]

I think you are to one between the two ladies on the right, we just see a little of your head! Right?

Have you benches through the whole church?

In Christ, Nicolaj

[Rick H.]

Dear Nicolaj,

As seen below, there are pews from wall to wall from front to back:

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As for the other part, I want to give Effie a shot here because I have clowned around for so long with her about this. But, when I tell you which one is me, then you have to tell me how to pronounce your name! :)

In Christ,
Rick

[Nina]

Rick, I know who you are but I am not telling you! :p

Effie, Effie, I hope you are well and your mom and sister are well. Please come here and look at Rick's surprise for you.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I think you are to one between the two ladies on the right, we just see a little of your head! Right?

Have you benches through the whole church?

In Christ, Nicolaj

Rick, I agree with Nicolaj because you seem to be in both photos. Logically these photos were given to you because you were in them and not because of the stained glass windows. Am I right?

I also love stained glass windows and I don't understand why it is permissible to have frescoes on all the walls and ceilings of our churches, but not stained glass images of the same things. Is there some kind of rule about this?

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Rick, I know who you are but I am not telling you! :p

Effie, Effie, I hope you are well and your mom and sister are well. Please come here and look at Rick's surprise for you.

Nina, the days are passing quickly and I will soon be with them. Both are now OK although my sister is still being monitored. She goes to the hospital 3 times a week.

Nicolaj is correct about Rick I think. It's strange isn't it how we match a face to how we feel about a person from their posts. I am usually wrong though so I am looking forward to Rick's reply. I have to admit that the first picture he posted (Telly Savalas' brotherwhen he was young) gave me a shock at first because that was not how I had pictured him, but then I remembered his humour and I found this humour in the face of that friendly person.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

I seem to recall reading that traditionally blessed icons should not be painted (written) upon easily mutable media, such as glass or canvas. Traditionally, a stiff, prepared wooden board is used. Hence, stained glass, being easily broken, should be avoided. It does seem than churches in the US are employing stained glass windows. I've seen some of an iconic character and others (in my own Greek parish and in a new nearby ROCOR parish) that are not iconic in nature.

As to statues, I also recall reading of statues existing in Constantinople pre-1204 (and probably 1204-1261) and I must read up on when (which local or general council) condemned their use. Recently I saw a photo of a venerated Orthodox statue in Serbia - don't know exactly how to fit that one into this!

Thanks Dimitri, you have answered my question. 4 years ago, our local church St. Demetrius was burnt. It was not totally destroyed however, and some of the old (5-6 hundred years) frescoes were saved. It has now been totally rebuilt but there was a lot of fuss about the old frescoes. The church committee wanted to paint over the old ones. The preservation society in our city forbade this and a compromise was reached. A special wall was built around the inner walls of the church, and the new frescoes are now being painted on them. The artwork of the new ones is really beautiful (something that is not true of a lot of modern churches).

This church now has stained glass windows but not with images from the bible on them. And I too love the way the light shines through these.

I believe that Orthodox churches were painted in this way because in the past simple people who might not have been able to read the bible properly could look at these images and gain a sense of what life was like in Jesus' time. Also being surrounded by images of the various saints allows our minds to dwell on their lives, and encourages us to try and be a little more like them.

[Rick H.]

Dear Effie,

You make a good point about the stained glass windows, and I am not sure about a rule on this. Possibly, some others may know about this. It is interesting to me to read Deacon Matthew's post and the following post about cannons and traditions or the lack of them regarding statues in the Orthodox Church, that has turned out to be an enlightening thread.

As, for my photo . . . this is such a perfect way to end our fun about my personal profile photo, because now I am even confused! :) I told Nicolaj in a PM yesterday that he picked me off, but now I am thinking that you both think I am the guy with dark hair and a sport coat and tie. That's not me. You can only really see me in the first photo. I'm the guy in the white shirt between the girl with the white shirt and the girl with the purple shirt. And, just to remove all doubt, here's one of me on Pascha 2006 being anointed on the night I was chrismated:

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You can't really tell by looking at this picture, but I am actaully happy here--this is what I look like when I am tired at 2:00 AM; but, very happy. Thanks for being a good sport Effie.

In Christ,
Rick

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Rick Henry wrote:


It is interesting to me to read Deacon Matthew's post and the following post about cannons and traditions or the lack of them regarding statues in the Orthodox Church,

I'm pretty sure cannons are not allowed in our parishes. Even if you plan to aim them at statues or the stained glass windows.

[Robert Rager]

My church has stained glass windows depicting Sacraments. I have to remember to take my camera.

[Rick H.]

I'm pretty sure cannons are not allowed in our parishes. Even if you plan to aim them at statues or the stained glass windows.




:) LOL

Okay, "canons." But, just as long as we are still allowed lattes (and the occasional sarcasm) I'm good to go!

[Andreas Moran]

I'm speaking from memory, but I don't think the canons of the Seventh Ecumenical Council are prescriptive as to the materials for images, and, of course, that was before stained glass designs came into use. There is nothing ephemeral about stained glass - many European examples date back to the middle ages. There is a difference between those images which adorn the church such as frescos - commonly, now, on canvas affixed to the walls - which we do not venerate, and panel icons which are specifically provided for veneration and before which we place our candles and offer our prayers. To reject stained glass images seems to me to indicate a closed mind, and to confine our religious artistic media for church adornment to frescos suggests an unwarranted attachment to Orthodox custom (not Tradition) in traditionally Orthodox countries. The Orthodox stained-glass artist I have mentioned has produced a wonderful window of Christ seated in glory, and stained glass seems a very appropriate medium for showing the 'transparent' throne and the hovering seraphim. I wish I knew how to post a photo of it.

[Kris]

Personally I've seen several examples of traditional Byzantine icons being painted on glass. I believe most of these were from monasteries (both Old and New calendar) in Romania.