View Full Version : Did the Jews know they were crucifying God?
Olympiada
06-11-2007, 07:19 AM
Did the Jews know they were crucifying God? Is it possible some of them were angry with God and they crucified him on purpose, ie he was not the king they had hoped for? Forgive my ignorance. Were any of the Jews aware that Jesus Christ was God, did any of them believe this, or, is the definition of a Jew one who does not believe Jesus Christ is God? I hope these questions make sense. They started bothering me tonight.
Theopesta
07-11-2007, 12:12 AM
Dear Olympiada,
I think loving the worldly authority make any one unable to accept the truth, although it is obvious. Anyone in the weakness time may not see HIM as the incarnated GOD, because he/she wants GOD to be as strong as he/she understand the mean of the genuine power.
But, God can turn the evil for our good, whatever the evil is.
In One Christ
A good place to start is to look at the texts for the Holy Week services, particularly the Matins of Great Friday (this service is sung on the evening of Holy Thursday, and includes the Twelve Passion Gospels). I can provide these for you if you can't locate them yourself.
Effie Ganatsios
07-11-2007, 05:52 AM
The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah. So, no they didn't believe they were crucifying their Messiah. Politics were also involved because the high priests lived in luxury (I saw a documentary a while back concerning the excavations of the Jewish Temple and it was found to be unbelievably luxurious) and they had a pretty good thing going with the Roman occupiers. They didn't want a Jewish rebellion on their hands upsetting their Roman friends. And they thought that at the very least, Jesus might cause one. It is an indication of how little they understood of Jesus' teachings.
The high priests taxed the Jews and used the temple as a money changing enterprise - Jews came from all over for the Passover. Christ reacted against the priests' very profitable enterprises in the Temple (stating that a lamb, goat or a pigeon were blemished and then selling the same "blemished" animal as pure to the next lot of pilgrims was very profitable for them) and became so angry that He told the whole world what a load of petty thieves they were.
Even more importantly He declared himself the son of God.
"In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the moneychangers at their business. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers, and overturned their tables. And he told those who sold the pigeons, "Take these things away; you shall not make my Father's house a house of trade." {John 2:14-16 RSV}"
So their reasons for crucifying Him might have been religious, economic or political. Most probably all three. They definitely did not believe that He was God.
If any of the above is incorrect or I have missed something - which I probably have - please tell me.
Effie
Did the Jews know they were crucifying God?
Of course they did not. Judas who realized it, hanged himself. Also we can not generalize. Most of the Jewish people who wanted Christ to be crucified, were not the entire Jewish population. Let's not forget that there are also other categories of Jewish people: there are the people who welcomed him in Jerusalem etc. there are those who converted to Christianity (even some who persecuted Christians formerly) and maybe those who never heard about Christ (while He lived there).
Is it possible some of them were angry with God and they crucified him on purpose, ie he was not the king they had hoped for?As NT says there were people who misunderstood the mission of Messiah and had conceived in their minds a different purpose for His coming, but that can not be representative of the entire Jewish population. But I think that they, the people who participated, thought that He is not the Messiah, that is why they took that step. If they knew that He was God, I do not think they would have done it.
Forgive my ignorance. Were any of the Jews aware that Jesus Christ was God, did any of them believe this, or, is the definition of a Jew one who does not believe Jesus Christ is God?Nooo. The definition of a Jew is not that they do not believe God. Let's remember that Prophet Elijah will come with the purpose to convert them and according to the prophecies many Jewish people will believe in Christ before the end of the world.
Also we must keep in mind that WE crucify Christ, daily with our sins. At least those who Crucified Him did not know Him. But we do know Him. We have been baptized and given grace and receive Him through the Holy Communion. Even with such a close relationship nothing prevents us from betraying Him with our sins and crucifying Him.
Also maybe the saying of Christ: "Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing!" is something to think about. Romans also executed the Crucification.
Olympiada
08-11-2007, 07:50 AM
Of course they did not. Judas who realized it, hanged himself. Also we can not generalize. Most of the Jewish people who wanted Christ to be crucified, were not the entire Jewish population. Let's not forget that there are also other categories of Jewish people: there are the people who welcomed him in Jerusalem etc. there are those who converted to Christianity (even some who persecuted Christians formerly) and maybe those who never heard about Christ (while He lived there).
As NT says there were people who misunderstood the mission of Messiah and had conceived in their minds a different purpose for His coming, but that can not be representative of the entire Jewish population. But I think that they, the people who participated, thought that He is not the Messiah, that is why they took that step. If they knew that He was God, I do not think they would have done it.
Nooo. The definition of a Jew is not that they do not believe God. Let's remember that Prophet Elijah will come with the purpose to convert them and according to the prophecies many Jewish people will believe in Christ before the end of the world.
Also we must keep in mind that WE crucify Christ, daily with our sins. At least those who Crucified Him did not know Him. But we do know Him. We have been baptized and given grace and receive Him through the Holy Communion. Even with such a close relationship nothing prevents us from betraying Him with our sins and crucifying Him.
Nina,
I was asking if the Jews who called for Jesus crucifixion had gotten angry enough at God to kill him. Apparently there is no way to prove this point of view. To me, the very definition of a Jew is one who does not believe that Jesus Christ is God. As I have Jewish cultural heritage, I am speaking more from my instincts than anything else, I have only been a Christian for about 8 years.
Olympiada
Herman Blaydoe
08-11-2007, 03:00 PM
I was asking if the Jews who called for Jesus crucifixion had gotten angry enough at God to kill him. Apparently there is no way to prove this point of view.
I would say that the evidence we have is contraindicative. He was crucified because those present were not able to recognize God. He was crucified specifically for claiming to be the Son of God. They recognized the claim, they did not recognize the Truth of the claim. He was the ultimate Innocent, wrongly convicted and punished for making a false claim, because it was true.
To me, the very definition of a Jew is one who does not believe that Jesus Christ is God.
There seem to be several definitions of "Jew." However, Moslems also do not believe that our Lord is God, but that does not make them Jews. Neither do athiests. Athiests, by definition, cannot be Jews unless you define "Jew" entirely by race. And yet, the Apostle Paul still considered himself a "Jew" even though he most certainly believed in Christ, and the first dispute in the Church was the differentiation between the Jewish members and the Gentile members. Our Lord Himself said "salvation is from the Jews". He certainly recognized who He was, did that make Him not Jewish? Clearly there is more to this than meets the eye, at least to this admittedly simple mind, looking forward to correction by those who know better.
Herman
There seem to be several definitions of "Jew." However, Moslems also do not believe that our Lord is God, but that does not make them Jews. Neither do athiests. Athiests, by definition, cannot be Jews unless you define "Jew" entirely by race. And yet, the Apostle Paul still considered himself a "Jew" even though he most certainly believed in Christ, and the first dispute in the Church was the differentiation between the Jewish members and the Gentile members. Our Lord Himself said "salvation is from the Jews". He certainly recognized who He was, did that make Him not Jewish? Clearly there is more to this than meets the eye, at least to this admittedly simple mind, looking forward to correction by those who know better.
Herman
This is so true and funny.
Nina,
I was asking if the Jews who called for Jesus crucifixion had gotten angry enough at God to kill him. As I have Jewish cultural heritage, I am speaking more from my instincts than anything else, I have only been a Christian for about 8 years.
Olympiada
Hmmm Nietzsche was angry at God. But I never heard that Jews were angry at God.
I know you have a Jewish background (MOT) because you mentioned it before. I would say be proud of that and for the fact that you are a Christian for 8 years now. You are imitating many from the first Church.
Olympiada
09-11-2007, 12:14 AM
I would say that the evidence we have is contraindicative. He was crucified because those present were not able to recognize God. He was crucified specifically for claiming to be the Son of God. They recognized the claim, they did not recognize the Truth of the claim. He was the ultimate Innocent, wrongly convicted and punished for making a false claim, because it was true.
There seem to be several definitions of "Jew." However, Moslems also do not believe that our Lord is God, but that does not make them Jews. Neither do athiests. Athiests, by definition, cannot be Jews unless you define "Jew" entirely by race. And yet, the Apostle Paul still considered himself a "Jew" even though he most certainly believed in Christ, and the first dispute in the Church was the differentiation between the Jewish members and the Gentile members. Our Lord Himself said "salvation is from the Jews". He certainly recognized who He was, did that make Him not Jewish? Clearly there is more to this than meets the eye, at least to this admittedly simple mind, looking forward to correction by those who know better.
Herman
Bravo Herman, excellent post! The best on the thread! The Jews are the chosen people, correct?
Olympiada
Olympiada
09-11-2007, 12:16 AM
Hmmm Nietzsche was angry at God. But I never heard that Jews were angry at God.
I know you have a Jewish background (MOT) because you mentioned it before. I would say be proud of that and for the fact that you are a Christian for 8 years now. You are imitating many from the first Church.
What is MOT?
I am not ashamed of my Jewish cultural heritage, quite the contrary, I am proud of it. I did not grow up a Jew, however. Thank you for the praise, I needed that.
Herman Blaydoe
09-11-2007, 05:02 PM
The Jews are the chosen people, correct?
I think it depends on your definition... Who is a Jew? Even the mocern secular state of Israel continues to wrestle with this.
Remember, God can raise sons of Abraham from the rocks. Those who do the will of God are related to Jesus (Matthew 12:47-50).
I have read from the Fathers that the seed of Abraham are those people who will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Sorry I can not recall which Father but if I come across the text I will post.
I have read from the Fathers that the seed of Abraham are those people who will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Sorry I can not recall which Father but if I come across the text I will post.
I have to correct myself here and make it more clear what I said.
The seed of Abraham, Fathers say, are all those people, regardless of nationality, who follow the commandments of God and walk in righteousness. These people will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
Kosta
10-11-2007, 12:05 PM
The Jews in Christ's time and those still awaiting their messiah today do not neccesarily believe the messiah will be God incarnate. Even the disciples did not neccesarily know he was God during his ministry.
In fact the Trinity itself was not known until pentecost when Christ sent the Holy Spirit to his church.
The jews did not know they were crucifing there messiah let alone God. Of course at the crucifixion some like the centurion recognized him to be the Son of God by the sign of the earthquake, the centurion exclaimed, "Truly this is the Son of God!.
In fact the Trinity itself was not known until pentecost when Christ sent the Holy Spirit to his church.
A slight correction, Kosta. There are two more Trinitarian events mentioned in the New Testament: Theophany and the Transfiguration.
Of course at the crucifixion some like the centurion recognized him to be the Son of God by the sign of the earthquake, the centurion exclaimed, "Truly this is the Son of God!.
Yes, and why no one mentions also that the Romans were those who executed the Crucification of God? Or because the Pilate washed his hands?
Yes, and why no one mentions also that the Romans were those who executed the Crucification of God? Or because the Pilate washed his hands?
I was told by a certain scholar that the soldiers who crucified Christ were in all probability Aramaic speaking Syrians (not the Latin speaking Italians we see in the Passion of the Christ), given the inclusive nature of Roman citizenship and the practical aspects of a military presence familiar with the local language.
I was told by a certain scholar that the soldiers who crucified Christ were in all probability Aramaic speaking Syrians (not the Latin speaking Italians we see in the Passion of the Christ), given the inclusive nature of Roman citizenship and the practical aspects of a military presence familiar with the local language.
(Maybe he suggested it because of this (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04375b.htm), but that does not mean all were from there). Ok, why do not people hear about these other nationalities that were there executing the order to crucify Christ? Although we all do crucify Him with our sins today there were more than Jews crucifying Christ.
Kosta
18-11-2007, 10:24 AM
(Maybe he suggested it because of this (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04375b.htm), but that does not mean all were from there). Ok, why do not people hear about these other nationalities that were there executing the order to crucify Christ? Although we all do crucify Him with our sins today there were more than Jews crucifying Christ.
Soteriologically speaking we all crucified Christ. He who was without guilt took our crimes upon himself and was sentenced to the death penalty; capital punishment. The sign above the cross was written in Hebrew, Greek and Latin the univeral languages of the known world, allegorically it symbolizes that his death encompasses all the inhabitants of the world.
Now historically speaking the Creed only mentions Pontius Pilate as having a hand in it. And in our liturgical texts of Holy Week we see jews, (not as an entire race of course ,for christianity was originally jewish), romans, and most of all Judas Iscariot. But not only Judas Iscariot, lets not forget money. Money lent a hand to the Lord's crucifixion. 30 pieces of silver was the price which sold-out the Son of God.
Soteriologically speaking we all crucified Christ. He who was without guilt took our crimes upon himself and was sentenced to the death penalty; capital punishment. The sign above the cross was written in Hebrew, Greek and Latin the univeral languages of the known world, allegorically it symbolizes that his death encompasses all the inhabitants of the world.
Now historically speaking the Creed only mentions Pontius Pilate as having a hand in it. And in our liturgical texts of Holy Week we see jews, (not as an entire race of course ,for christianity was originally jewish), romans, and most of all Judas Iscariot. But not only Judas Iscariot, lets not forget money. Money lent a hand to the Lord's crucifixion. 30 pieces of silver was the price which sold-out the Son of God.
Interesting. I like your approach- thank you. Humans all are guilty of crucifying Christ. I never thought of money though, since I tended to focus on humans, but you are very right! As Elder Amphilokios said:
When your heart does not have Christ, it will contain either money, property or people instead.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.5 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.