View Full Version : Obedience to heirarchs
Dear Fr David,
So many questions were triggered by what you said on the "Why don't monastics eat meat" thread:
however, they continue to operate (and here is the key) in obedience to the direction of their hierarchs.
Fr David Moser
Actually, there's way too many thoughts, and I can't seem to pull them together too well. Mostly, I guess, I would like to know, how the Church fits together, the heirarchy, and the lay people. How do different jurisdictions fit together? How do I fit in next to my friend, who is under a different Bishop?
We are all One Church, so we Have to fit together. Do we fit together even if our Bishops disagree with each other? Please bear with me, I don't know anything, and anything that seems to separate us from each other really, really shakes me.
As a protestant, I did whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted, and was not accountable to anyone. Now, I'm supposed to be living in obedience to a heirarchy. But, if my hierarchy does whatever it wants, whenever it wants, then how is that different from how I lived before? Except, maybe, that, I'm not fully repsonsbile anymore, for the way I live, and I can say, I'm just living in obedience to my heirarchy.
Also, how exactly am I living in obedience to my heirarchy? The Priest, is the only part of the Hierarchy that I'm in contact with. My bishop doesn't know I exist. I do not know what his exptectations are or what he does or how he lives or what he teaches. In fact, I don't even learn all that from my priest. I do all my learning from my friends, who are under other Bishops. For all I know, I'm living in obedience to some other Bishop and not my own. But, it shouldnt' matter, because all our Bishops are under the Church, right? And they should be leading us/ teaching us in ways that aren't contrary to what the 'Church' teaches, right?
But that creates another question. How does a new convert learn what the Church teaches? If what the Church teaches varies, depending on who our Bishop is, how can we be One Church?
I don't know if I'm making any sense. It's hard to put my thoughts into words when I'm confused. You see, everything I know about orthodoxy, is from my friend, and not my heirarchy. Not even my priest. So, I don't understand the role of the heirarchy in the life of a commoner. I also know I'm not any less Orthodox because I was taught by my friend and not by my priest. My priest wouldn't have baptised me if I hadn't been ready, or if I'd been taught wrong.
I don't even know why I'm asking these questions, because, in a way, they're so techincal and even if you gave me perfectly good answers, I probably won't understand. I guess, what bothers me the most is the thought that our heirarchies might separate rather than unite us as One Church, and I'm searching for some kind of reassurance that we are One.
I'm sorry. I must still be sick. I better quit, for I'm getting all emotional about not being One!
In Christ,
Mary.
Owen Jones
07-11-2007, 12:31 AM
Have faith! Don't allow yourself to be too discouraged. Our Lord commands us not to fret over the evil other men do, in or out of the Church. Every Church that has split off from Orthodoxy has gone the way of apostacy and heresy. Many no longer exist. I attended a wedding this past weekend in the lone French Heugenot Church left in America -- just to cite one example.
While Orthodoxy is afflicted with many attacks and pressures -- in America it is the problem of a luke warm faith that is socially acceptable -- in other parts of the world it includes a checkered past allied with political empires that would exploit the Church and its simpler people for its own ends to do very bad things to people. If you were to travel around and visit other Orthodox Churches, you would hear many average sermons, some really bad sermons, but you are not likely to hear anything blatantly heretical from an Orthodox sermon anywhere. You cannot imagine how miraculous this simple fact is in our age of rampant heresy and apostacy. And there are signs that people are seeking a more real Orthodoxy than one that is just a social club -- witness for example the growth in monasteries, in Russia, on Athos, in America even!!! Athos in the 50's and 60's were down to a few hundred monks. It has grown considerably since then.
Our future vibrancy will be found in the growth of these monasteries and the founding of new ones, and a change in the opinion of our faithful to the point that parents will actually want their son or daughter to become a monastic. As the world moves more and more away from serious spiritual matters, it will only require us all to be more faithful, and more confident in our faith, because the difference will be more profound and obvious.
Sure, there will be priests and hierarchs who let us down, but, unlike as in protestantism, our faith does not depend entirely on them, but rather on our hearts. And it is up to us to make sure that the faith is preserved and strengthened in the Church institutionally, as well as mystically. I heard a story about a priest in Moscow who allowed an American episcopalian priest(ess) enter the sanctuary, and the people refused to come back until he had publicly apologized. This is the true spirit of Orthodoxy. We are all required to find the Bishop within.
Rick H.
07-11-2007, 02:18 AM
We are all required to find the Bishop within.
You used this last Nov. or Dec. and it strikes me with the same force and rings as a true truth as much now as the first time I read it then. The one who is not able to transcend all divisions in Christ is the one who will never find the Bishop within, will never know the Spirit of Life for himself or herself. I am looking forward to The Path thread, when we get to part III, so I may steal this from you as it relates to "a real life in the spirit of Christ." As you say "we are all required to find the Bishop within," St. Theophan says, "one must have active wisdom."
Actually, there's way too many thoughts, and I can't seem to pull them together too well. Mostly, I guess, I would like to know, how the Church fits together, the heirarchy, and the lay people. How do different jurisdictions fit together? How do I fit in next to my friend, who is under a different Bishop?
In Christ,
Mary.
Giggles... I sense OD from OC
I'm sorry. I must still be sick. I better quit, for I'm getting all emotional about not being One!
In Christ,
Mary.
Read Nicholas Cabasilas's (if I may suggest) The Life in Christ and you will understand a lot. ONE will be only when we are all with HIM in Heaven. Cabasilas says that although saints are saints from this life, they are not perfected until the moment they are in Heaven. There is the perfection you thirst and long for.
Church is a family. Our families are the Church in miniature. Observe how different your children are, although they came from the same parents. Actually diversity is God's gift to us. Otherwise we would be bland clones. Look at the saints how different they are in every aspect, but we are all one in Him from here. There (in Heaven) it will all be perfected.
Church is a family. Our families are the Church in miniature. Observe how different your children are, although they came from the same parents. Actually diversity is God's gift to us. Otherwise we would be bland clones. Look at the saints how different they are in every aspect, but we are all one in Him from here. There (in Heaven) it will all be perfected.
True, we're all different. But we all obey the same rules. We don't have a different sent of rules for different kinds of personalities...
True, we're all different. But we all obey the same rules. We don't have a different sent of rules for different kinds of personalities...
It is like with the opa thing from the other thread. Some say it Opa, some Hop, some Op.
On another note: :)
The OD stands for overdosed. Or should I have said OW? - overwhelmed.
I'm sorry for having lost my humor, but I'm serious. What makes Orthodoxy different from all other 'chrisitianity' is it's Deep, Deep Strength and Unchangingness, it's Solidness. It's something you can count on to be there, long after you're gone. It's challenging, it's difficult, it engages every aspect of a person, and yet, it's simple enough for a child to get into completely. People are supposed to change to fit into the Church, the Church isn't supposed to change to fit the people.
Owen, I haven't been ignoring your reply, I'm just chewing on it. I am totally clueless about what you mean when you talk of the "Bishop within" but I still need to chew on the earlier stuff. Thanks.
I'm sorry for having lost my humor, but I'm serious. What makes Orthodoxy different from all other 'chrisitianity' is it's Deep, Deep Strength and Unchangingness, it's Solidness. It's something you can count on to be there, long after you're gone. It's challenging, it's difficult, it engages every aspect of a person, and yet, it's simple enough for a child to get into completely. People are supposed to change to fit into the Church, the Church isn't supposed to change to fit the people.
Mary, ok I am serious too, but do not let your thoughts of the 1st post overwhelm you. I do not think the Church is changing. If there are people who say that, then they are outcasting themselves. The Head of the Church is Christ and the Apostle said that Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I am not sure what you are saying here, but if you speak about the Canon Law of the Church (the rules) know that there are two ways to deal with it that the Church has advised out of love for our weak and fallen human nature: eikonomia and akrivia.
Yes, please Owen can you explain us the Bishop within? Is that the conscience? Is that Christ? Still the Church decided the hierarchy and as St. Irineos said the Bishop is "typos Theou".
Herman Blaydoe
07-11-2007, 07:49 PM
Most of us, thanks be to God, do not live in societies that have religious police who wander around with camel whips 'enforcing" public prayer, clothing standards, and eating habits. Our bishops are not judges, our priests are not police. Obedience is not "enforced" it is entirely (in most cases) voluntary. This, I think, is the "bishop within", the willingness of the individual to discipline himself and to submit to the "rules". Without Imperial storm troops to back them up, bishops don't have a whole lot of "power" to "enforce" the rules if the people do not want to obey them. It is a lot like herding sheep, don't you know. It can be difficult getting them to go the way you want them to when they don't want to, especially if it is a large herd and all you have is you.
The Church is not a judiciary, it is a hospital. Different people require different protocols, different treatments, even when the disease is the same. What worked in one circumstance doesn't work for every circumstance. Sometimes you just have to try something different and see if it works.
Yes, in order to be "cured", in order to become "perfected", we have to let the Church shape us, not simply lower the bar, and change the meaning of "perfected" to suit ourselves. This sometimes means following and supporting our bishops even when we don't agree with everything they say or do, as long as they are not preaching heresy or otherwise departing from the Apostolic Witness to the extent that other bishops call them to account. It is a matter that requires discernment and wisdom, two things that I find myself very short on, so I hesitate to pronounce judgement, lest I also be judged. But hey, that's just me.
Herman
James Blackstock
07-11-2007, 08:19 PM
Just a thought! we know from the Scriptures that at some time the church will fall into apostacy and that there will only be a remnant who will be saved. I am NOT saying that this is the time, however it is a time for us to be awake, alert and watching for His return. We are to be wise as serpants and gentle as doves. We are to be faithful regardless of what our Bishops or Priests do. Even Paul said the following; 1 Cor 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
KJV We still have a conscience!
Herman Blaydoe
07-11-2007, 08:27 PM
Just a thought! we know from the Scriptures that at some time the church will fall into apostacy and that there will only be a remnant who will be saved.
Um, not to be argumentative, but do we really "know" this from Scripture? I think not. Sorry, but this sounds rather "protestant" to me. Certainly PARTS of the Church will fall (and obviously have fallen) into apostacy, but do we not have the very promise of Christ Himself that the gates of hell itself will NEVER prevail against His spotless Bride, the Church? At any rate, it is certainly wise to try and be on the right side with the blessed sheep and not on the left side with the damned goats when Christ judges us all.
Father David Moser
07-11-2007, 08:40 PM
The Orthodox life, the Orthodox faith, is a cure for the death and corruption that infect us. Like every cure, it must be applied. Orthodoxy, which is the same in essence no matter where you go, is applied in the manner best suited to the person. For this reason we have different national traditions, which are the result of Orthodoxy being applied to different cultures. We have a multitude of local and even personal variations which are the result of Orthodoxy being applied to a specific locale, by a specific spiritual physician to address specific, even personal needs, deficits, symptoms. This variation used to be less obvious to the observer and/or participant because travel was not so easy and the media was quite limited by time and distance and communication was slower. There was no internet which provides an arena for formerly separated local variations to come together and clash. Not only these changes, but now we have Orthodoxy in the US (and other "modern" pluralistic cultures) and so we see the Greek tradition next to the Serbian tradition next to the Arabic tradition next to the Russian tradition etc. It is not Orthodoxy that has changed, not by a long shot, but rather our ability to "shop and compare" the different applications of Orthodoxy. The best answer is to ignore every "variation" but that which is given you by your spiritual father - he is the one "applying" the cure of Orthodoxy to you. The Orthodox Church is not an "organization" it is a body and within the body there are many different activities going on simultaneously, each appropriate to its own locale, in which all are directed by and draw upon the same cure, the same faith, the same essence, which is powered by the grace of God.
You know it seems like there have been a rash of schisms in the Orthodox Church lately. Whether or not this is an actual increase from the past or not, I don't know, however "seems" like an increase because we are more aware of them via the internet and what would be a small very limited local dispute in the past takes on world wide significance as every person with an ISP address gets to have their say. There are schisms which have occurred in the past few years that never before would have happened - the only reason they were possible was because of the internet. (Don't get me wrong, the internet is not evil, it's just that we are using it carelessly. There are some very positive effects of the internet (the world wide availability of patristic libraries is one), however, like any powerful tool, it must be used with care and judicious wisdom.)
The Church is One - it always has been, it always will be. The perceived variations in practice are simply the national, local, personal application of the Cure for the salvation of the world.
Fr David Moser
Dear Nina,
Please forgive me for being beastly. I do not know what "eikonomia and akrivia" mean, but that's ok. The confusion in my head is settling down, even though I didn't really know what my questions where. =)
Fr David,
Thank you so much for showing me the bigger picture. It helps to see how easy access to all kinds of information, blows things out of proportion, hyperfocusing on issues that normally would be dealt with in private.
What's the best way to deal with the information overload? I think I know how to deal with it in my own heart... mostly because, I have felt God's Grace in the Church and I know that He works in us, and through us, even though we're still sinners. (probably, because, He really doesn't have a choice there!) But, looking in from the outside, it doesn't seem that way.
When we left our former church, my pastor said to me: "You think it's the perfect church, but when you've been there for a while, you'll see that they have problems just like we do." I can't deny that we have problems. BUT, I've seen and felt God work in us, inspite of our problems, and that's something I cannot explain, and that sounds like I'm being blind or in denial.
I think it's wrong of me to want to be able to convince my friends with my words that what I feel and know in the Church is Real, inspite of all the externals, which are, in many ways similar to other christians. For instance, in my own life, the way I live and behave is still pretty much the same as before - I go to church whenever there's a service, I live according to my conscience.
The difference is mostly on the inside, where my conscience seems to be growing and calling sin, the things that I usually made excuses for. And so, my Christian Path gets narrower and narrower, and my own standards for myself are getting higher and higher, but on the outside, I'm still the same. I guess, in a way, I was wishing that the Outside would be visibly different, so my friends can know that the Orthodox Church is the True Church. Our unity would've been one such thing, that's visible on the Outside.
Herman, I wasn't thinking of forcing others to obey, or constantly watching. You see, I've always lived according to my conscience, doing what I think is the right thing to do. I still do the same. So, how is my Orthodox life, different from my protestant? How do I know that I'm living in obedience to the Church, and not just deluding myself and living in obedience to myself? My conscience is a part of me and limited by my knowledge and experiences and feelings, is it not? So, if I am my own guide, isn't that foolish and dangerous?
I don't know if I'm making any sense. But, Nina, I've taken your advice and stopped letting my thoughts overwhelm me. Thanks =)
IN Christ,
Mary.
Ok sorry, but since you know so much from your friend monk and since I saw you use the word logismoi recently, I assumed (wrongly) that he has told you about these words too. Sorry, Mary! But you are right that I should explain the words.
Akrivia = following the Canons of the Church according to exactness.
Eikonomia = following the Canons of the Church by adjusting to the particular case and circumstances out of love for the individual.
Let say Orthodox Church does not allow (in Canons) a 4th marriage. A person needs to get married for a 4th time for whatever reasons. He appeals the case to his Bishop and the Bishop seeing the facts of this person's life discerns that it will be helpful spiritually for him to allow him this leniency. Therefore, out of love for the individual and for his salvation, this Bishop permits a fourth marriage for him.
Herman Blaydoe
08-11-2007, 06:04 PM
Dear Mary,
Forgive me if I gave a wrong impression. I am not accusing you of anything, simply drawing an example (poorly). If you don't "see" a change in yourself, it is probably because even as we get better spiritually, as we get closer to God, we begin to see more clearly how much really farther we have to go! The mountain over the horizon doesn't look that far away, until you start getting closer to it and begin to realize how far away it really is. This can be quite discouraging at first. But even the discouragement is a blessing if it helps us to realize how much we depend on Christ to get anywhere at all. One of the beauties and bounty of Orthodoxy is the many tools that we have to help us along the way, that other faiths have discarded or forgotten. We have the wisdom of the Fathers, the healing of the Sacraments, the blessings and teachings of the prayers of Liturgy and other services, and the exercise of asceticism. Of course, we only benefit in as much as we avail ourselves of all these wonderful gifts.
Father David Moser
08-11-2007, 06:21 PM
What's the best way to deal with the information overload? I think I know how to deal with it in my own heart... mostly because, I have felt God's Grace in the Church and I know that He works in us, and through us,
Dear Mary, I would like to answer your question by referring to a post I made not long ago (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=52260&postcount=10) in the "Jurisdictional Frustrations" thread. I think that my comments to Jude V will also address ths question that you ask. If I'm off base here, please just let me know and I'll try again.
Fr David Moser
Dear Mary, I would like to answer your question by referring to a post I made not long ago (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=52260&postcount=10) in the "Jurisdictional Frustrations" thread. I think that my comments to Jude V will also address ths question that you ask. If I'm off base here, please just let me know and I'll try again.
Fr David Moser
Dear Fr David,
That was an excellent post, and it answers my question perfectly! Thank you! =) It fits in perfectly with the admonition that I recently received:
... that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you... 1 Thess 4:11
Dear Herman,
I know you weren't accusing me of anything. I don't think you're good at making accusations. =) I was just trying to clarify myself, because I was muddled and expected misunderstandings.
Nina, thanks for the defining those words. I am familiar with the definitions, just not the actual words! =) I don't have a mind for exact words, just thoughts and ideas. So I may 'know' something, but not know that it has a proper name.
Please pray for me, for next week, we're going to drive down to NC for a friend's wedding. He was a missionary in Ethiopia, with us, and I'm guessing others we knew, especially those nearby, will also be there. Two of them, used to be my 'spiritual guides', and 'know' me very well. I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I honestly don't want to talk to them anymore of the things in my heart.
If they ask about the Church in too much detail, I'd like to tell them that I'm practicing 'living a quiet life, minding my own business and working with my hands...' and jurisdictional 'chaos' isnt' mine to sort out. One question I"m afraid of is how we're different from the Ethiopian Orthodox church. It always pops up when we talk to friends from Ethiopia. They know more about Ethiopian orthodoxy than I do, I only that, we're different from them, but I'm not sure how. I think, if they ask, (and I hope they don't), I'll just say "I don't know".
As much as I'd like for all my friends to become Orthodox, I'm afraid of saying anything, for they know so much more than I do, and are far more educated and well read. So, please pray that no one asks me questions! =)
In Christ,
Mary.
Nina, thanks for the defining those words. I am familiar with the definitions, just not the actual words! =) I don't have a mind for exact words, just thoughts and ideas. So I may 'know' something, but not know that it has a proper name.
Please pray for me, for next week, we're going to drive down to NC for a friend's wedding. He was a missionary in Ethiopia, with us, and I'm guessing others we knew, especially those nearby, will also be there. Two of them, used to be my 'spiritual guides', and 'know' me very well. I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I honestly don't want to talk to them anymore of the things in my heart.
If they ask about the Church in too much detail, I'd like to tell them that I'm practicing 'living a quiet life, minding my own business and working with my hands...' and jurisdictional 'chaos' isnt' mine to sort out. One question I"m afraid of is how we're different from the Ethiopian Orthodox church. It always pops up when we talk to friends from Ethiopia. They know more about Ethiopian orthodoxy than I do, I only that, we're different from them, but I'm not sure how. I think, if they ask, (and I hope they don't), I'll just say "I don't know".
As much as I'd like for all my friends to become Orthodox, I'm afraid of saying anything, for they know so much more than I do, and are far more educated and well read. So, please pray that no one asks me questions! =)
In Christ,
Mary.
Of course I will pray for you.
Andreas Moran
09-11-2007, 10:47 AM
If you don't "see" a change in yourself, it is probably because even as we get better spiritually, as we get closer to God, we begin to see more clearly how much really farther we have to go! The mountain over the horizon doesn't look that far away, until you start getting closer to it and begin to realize how far away it really is. This can be quite discouraging at first. But even the discouragement is a blessing if it helps us to realize how much we depend on Christ to get anywhere at all.
This is so true, and is, I think, the reason why Elder Sophrony advises us not to measure our progress. New visitors to the monastery here get excited about the great grace they feel there. When they remark on this to members of the Community, the reply comes, 'but we don't feel it'.
Seda S.
09-11-2007, 06:36 PM
Dear all, especially Fr David and other fathers
The words of Mary that she was guided by her spiritual brothers or sisters made me ask the following question.
It is not secret that many people now, especially those who'd like to live a deeper spiritual life, seek "staretses" whom they cannot find to be guided by them. Not always, unfortunately, can the confessor fathers lead such people correctly. You know better than me how some years ago the Holy Synod of MP made strict decisions against so called "mladostaretses". And I know that in some Russian Orthodox forums the faithful who do not have spiritual fathers (I don't mean confessor fathers before whom they confess their sins) gather for mutual instruction, on the patristic basis, of course. Sometimes, especially the clergy, say such practice is not correct. However, there are words of St Theophan the Recluse, written in one of his letters (letter 917 in the V vol., in Russian), allowing such practice. I'd like to know your opinion (especially that of the fathers of this community) on this matter.
I'm quoting now those words of St Theophan (sorry for grammatical errors, I translated the words into English as much as I could, I don't have the book in English).
"N. tells the truth that now there are no authentic instructors. But one should not remain with the Scripture and the patristic lessons only. Questioning is required. Paisius of Niametsk (Velichkovsky - S.) decided so: Let two or three like-minded persons make union and instruct each other and question each other, living a life of mutual obedience, with the fear of God and with prayer, in moderate ascetic austerity."
With love,
S.
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