The sacramental Church - the Kingdom of God?

[Demetrios]

Is the orthodox church the actual Kingdom of heaven or is it an Image of the kingdom of heaven?

[Father David Moser]

Is the orthodox church the actual Kingdom of heaven or is it an Image of the kingdom of heaven?

the Orthodox Church is the Kingdom of Heaven in reality - however it is not fully equivalent with the Kingdom of Heaven. The Orthodox Church is only the visible portion of the Kingdom of Heaven in this place and time whereas the Kingdom of Heaven in its totality spans time and space and extends even into eternity and includes not only man, but also the angelic host.

Fr David Moser

[Demetrios]

the Orthodox Church is the Kingdom of Heaven in reality - however it is not fully equivalent with the Kingdom of Heaven. The Orthodox Church is only the visible portion of the Kingdom of Heaven in this place and time whereas the Kingdom of Heaven in its totality spans time and space and extends even into eternity and includes not only man, but also the angelic host.

Fr David Moser

Thank you for responding Fr David.

This answer Now brings up a new question. If we say that the church is the kingdom of heaven than are we judging all those out side of the church and limiting God to the confines of the church?

[Father David Moser]

Thank you for responding Fr David.

This answer Now brings up a new question. If we say that the church is the kingdom of heaven than are we judging all those out side of the church and limiting God to the confines of the church?

No, I don't think so. What we are saying is that those who are outside the Church, if they wish to be saved, will somehow end up within the Church. Sometimes that happens in this world (how many unlikely and plainly miraculous stories of how converts first ended up in an Orthodox Church or first heard about the Orthodox faith have you heard - I am still amazed by this phenomenon) and if not in the world, then God will accomplish it in the next life (how we do not know) - but one way or another, they will end up in the Church.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

No, I don't think so. What we are saying is that those who are outside the Church, if they wish to be saved, will somehow end up within the Church. Sometimes that happens in this world (how many unlikely and plainly miraculous stories of how converts first ended up in an Orthodox Church or first heard about the Orthodox faith have you heard - I am still amazed by this phenomenon) and if not in the world, then God will accomplish it in the next life (how we do not know) - but one way or another, they will end up in the Church.

Fr David Moser

Now I got lost and am completely confused. I have all those question marks over my head like the confused smiley (emoticon) we have in this forum. How will all the people end up in the Church? I thought the theory of St. Gregory of Nyssa about "final restoration" and "universal salvation" was not accepted by the Church? I am trying to understand what you mean, Father. Please explain to me.

[Demetrios]

No, I don't think so. What we are saying is that those who are outside the Church, if they wish to be saved, will somehow end up within the Church. Sometimes that happens in this world (how many unlikely and plainly miraculous stories of how converts first ended up in an Orthodox Church or first heard about the Orthodox faith have you heard - I am still amazed by this phenomenon) and if not in the world, then God will accomplish it in the next life (how we do not know) - but one way or another, they will end up in the Church.

Fr David Moser
Thank you Fr David

When you say that sometimes it happens in this world. Are you suggesting that if it doesn't happen in this life that they will have another chance in the next or are you suggesting that they will be forced into the church against there free will. Sort of like a hell for those that don't conform to Gods will.

[Father David Moser]

Now I got lost and am completely confused. ... Please explain to me.



When you say that sometimes it happens in this world. Are you suggesting that if it doesn't happen in this life that they will have another chance in the next or are you suggesting that they will be forced into the church against there free will. Sort of like a hell for those that don't conform to Gods will.

I really don't know what God has in mind. What I do know is that He is "the Lover of mankind Who desires that no man should perish but that all should be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth". The way that I understand this is that those who are truly seeking God will find Him and in the process will find themselves in the Church. How?, when?, under what circumstances? - I don't know. But I trust that God can and will, in His mercy and compassion, take care of it.

I can make a conjecture that at the final resurrection when all mankind is made complete again and the souls of all reunited with their bodies, the Great Judgement will afford one final opportunity to choose - but that's just a wild idea I had, not to be trusted as true in any way. But it gives me hope.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

I really don't know what God has in mind. What I do know is that He is "the Lover of mankind Who desires that no man should perish but that all should be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth". The way that I understand this is that those who are truly seeking God will find Him and in the process will find themselves in the Church. How?, when?, under what circumstances? - I don't know. But I trust that God can and will, in His mercy and compassion, take care of it.

I can make a conjecture that at the final resurrection when all mankind is made complete again and the souls of all reunited with their bodies, the Great Judgement will afford one final opportunity to choose - but that's just a wild idea I had, not to be trusted as true in any way. But it gives me hope.

Fr David Moser

Well... God willing if He will do that, then it is wonderful like all things God does. But the Fathers say that spiritual labors are here.

As an aside, I have heard from a friend that the theory of the "final restoration" and "universal salvation" are not of St. Gregory of Nyssa, but were ascribed to him by an RC who did exegesis of St. Gregory's of Nyssa work. However the Saint never said that and it is a misconception among some (even Orthodox) theologians. I asked my friend to find the reference where he read this from.

[Kosta]

Well... God willing if He will do that, then it is wonderful like all things God does. But the Fathers say that spiritual labors are here.

As an aside, I have heard from a friend that the theory of the "final restoration" and "universal salvation" are not of St. Gregory of Nyssa, but were ascribed to him by an RC who did exegesis of St. Gregory's of Nyssa work. However the Saint never said that and it is a misconception among some (even Orthodox) theologians. I asked my friend to find the reference where he read this from.

Origen was extrememly popular in the 4-5th century church. His writings influenced many other Farhers. St Epiphanius of Cyprus was the first to strongly condemn the teachings of Origen in 400 a.d.

In the pseudo-council of Florence , only St Gregory of Nyssa were the latins able to use to demonstrate the purgatory. St Mark Evgenikus of Ephesus said that one Father doesnt make Apostolic Tradition and kinda "scolded" St Gregory for adopting something that seemed like purgatory.

[Nina]

Origen was extrememly popular in the 4-5th century church. His writings influenced many other Farhers. St Epiphanius of Cyprus was the first to strongly condemn the teachings of Origen in 400 a.d.

In the pseudo-council of Florence , only St Gregory of Nyssa were the latins able to use to demonstrate the purgatory. St Mark Evgenikus of Ephesus said that one Father doesnt make Apostolic Tradition and kinda "scolded" St Gregory for adopting something that seemed like purgatory.

Ok good and thank you for the information. I will show this also to my friend.

[Demetrios]

I can make a conjecture that at the final resurrection when all mankind is made complete again and the souls of all reunited with their bodies, the Great Judgement will afford one final opportunity to choose - but that's just a wild idea I had, not to be trusted as true in any way. But it gives me hope.

Fr David Moser

Rightfully so Fr. David. I guess we all should have this hope. Knowing how great Gods mercy is, you never know.