State of souls after death?

[Kypreos]

after a person dies, can the state of their soul be improved through prayers, giving of alms, having memorial services...etc? or is the soul only provided temporary relief as a result of the above works?

any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

[Nina]

From the life of Venerable Athanasia the Abbess of Aegina (as it is in my inbox sent from friend) whom we celebrate on April 12:



Before her death, St Athanasia ordered the nuns to feed the poor for forty days. The sisters, however, did not fulfill her request and set out the memorial meal for only ten days. The saint appeared to some of the sisters and said, "Let everyone know that alms given for a departed soul for forty days after death, and food offered to the hungry, appease God. If the departed souls are sinful, they receive forgiveness from God. If they are righteous, then the good deeds bring God's mercy on the souls of those who perform them.

[Nina]

In the skete of St. Anne lived a certain hiermonk Savvas, the famous "Papa-Savvas" as he was called. Fr. Joachim Spetsieris had him as his spiritual father. The Empress of Russia, Catherine, also had him as her spiritual father. He served the liturgy every day; he was a God-bearing, clairvoyant teacher of noetic prayer.

Once some people asked him, "What motivates you to commemorate so many names in the proskomidi?" He answered, "When I was younger, we called the bishop (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Bishop) to consecrate the church (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Church) above the Holy Monastery of St. Dionysios" (It was there that he first practiced hesychasm, with his elder, Papa-Hilarion, another famous spiritual father.) "After the consecration, the bishop said to my Elder, 'May I give Papa-Savvas some names to commemorate for forty days, since he serves liturgy every day?" My Elder told him, 'Give him as many as you want.' So he gave me sixty-two names. When I had completed thirty-nine Liturgies and was about to serve the fortieth, I leaned against the chanter's stand and waited for my Elder to come, so that I could say the entrance prayers to serve Liturgy. I fell asleep and saw in my sleep that I was wearing priestly vestments and was standing before the Holy Table. On the Holy Table was the holy diskos for the Liturgy, and the holy chalice full of the holy Blood of Christ. Then I saw Papa-Stephen come and take the communion spoon and the paper from the proskomidi, approach the Holy Table, and put the paper on it beside the holy diskos. Then he dipped the spoon into the holy Blood of Christ and a name was erased. He dipped it again and another one was erased, and so forth until all were done and the paper was clean. Then I awoke, and in a little while my Elder came. Immediately I told him what I saw. The Elder said to me, 'Didn't I tell you not to believe in dreams?' After the Liturgy he added, 'You are not worthy for their sins to be forgiven; through the power of the Blood of Christ their sins were forgiven.' So this is the reason why I commemorate the names of everyone.

Selected from Counsels from the Holy Mountain
From the Letters and Homilies of Elder Ephraim

[Paul Cowan]

I don't mean to rehash an old thread, but is this not "buying off" God? Or buying indulgences as the RC used to do?

I believe in prayers helping the dead. But if this life is where we "make our bed", then doing things for materialisticlly after they die seems odd. It would seem these things done for alms would better help the person doing them, not the one in whose name they are done.

Please help me also understand.

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

after a person dies, can the state of their soul be improved through prayers, giving of alms, having memorial services...etc? or is the soul only provided temporary relief as a result of the above works?

any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

We believe it can, Kypreos.

"St. Gregory the Great, in answering in his Dialogues the question, "Is there anything at all that can possibly benefit souls after death?" teaches: "The Holy Sacrifice of Christ, our saving Victim, brings great benefits to souls even after death, provided their sins (are such as) can be pardoned in the life to come. For this reason the souls of the dead sometimes beg to have Liturgies offered for them ... The safer course, naturally, is to do for ourselves during life what we hope others will do for us after death. It is better to make one's exit a free man than to seek liberty after one is in chains. We should, therefore, despise this world with all our hearts as though its glory were already spent, and offer our sacrifice of tears to God each day as we immolate His sacred Flesh and Blood. This Sacrifice alone has the power of saving the soul from eternal death, for it presents to us mystically the death of the Only-begotten Son" (Dialogues IV: 57, 60, pp. 266, 272-3).

St. Gregory gives several examples of the dead appearing to the living and asking for or thanking them for the celebration of the Liturgy for their repose; once, also, a captive whom his wife believed dead and for whom she had the Liturgy celebrated on certain days, returned from captivity and told her how he had been released from his chains on some days—the very days when the Liturgy had been offered for him. (Dialogues IV: 57, 59, pp. 267, 270).
"
"WHAT WE CAN DO FOR THE DEAD
Every one of us who desires to manifest his love for the dead and give them real help, can do this best of all through prayer for them, and in particular by commemorating them at the Liturgy, when the particles which are cut out for the living and the dead are let fall into the Blood of the Lord with the words: "Wash away, O Lord, the sins of those here commemorated by Thy Precious Blood, by the prayers of Thy saints." We can do nothing better or greater for the dead than to pray for them, offering commemoration for them at the Liturgy, Of this they are always in need, and especially during those forty days when the soul of the deceased is proceeding on its path to the eternal habitations. The body feels nothing then: it does not see its close ones who have assembled, does not smell the fragrance of the flowers, does not hear the funeral orations. But the soul senses the prayers offered for it and is grateful to those whe make them and is spiritually close to them"

Effie


http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/excerpts_death.aspx

[Andreas Moran]

Whilst commemoration in the Divine Liturgy is the most effective way to help the soul of a departed one, almsgiving also is of benefit to that soul as well as to the giver; St John Maximovich, among many saints, said this. Love is stronger than death. God is love and 'he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him': Luke 20:38. 'Charity never faileth': 1 Cor. 13:8. If we do good out of love, for God and for our neighbour, even our departed neighbour, will God disregard that love? Love is dynamic. 'When you give alms, God is your debtor', said St John Chrysostom. God redeems that debt by being merciful to the soul in whose name we have, from love, done good.

[Kosta]

I don't mean to rehash an old thread, but is this not "buying off" God? Or buying indulgences as the RC used to do?

I believe in prayers helping the dead. But if this life is where we "make our bed", then doing things for materialisticlly after they die seems odd. It would seem these things done for alms would better help the person doing them, not the one in whose name they are done.

Please help me also understand.

Paul

Your right in a sense Paul about helping the person who actually gives the alms. In fact this is what the Apostolic Constitutions teach about the 9th day memorial and prayers for the departed, "And let the ninth day be celebrated in remembrance of the LIVING and the departed.....And let alms be given to the poor out of his goods, for a memorial to him. Now we say these things concerning godly men. As for the ungodly person -if you gave the whole world to the poor it would not benefit him at all..."

The whole point is, if the departed did not die, the living would not be praying or giving out alms at all. Thus the departed person is helping the living carry out their christian duty, and in return the dead person is rewarded by God for being the catalyst.

How many times do we come across a memorial scholarship? Or a charitable organization set up after a deceased loved one? Or loved ones asking people instead of buying flowers for a funeral to donate it to a charity in the deceased's name? The point is, that it helps both you and the deceased. Without the deceased you would have never of donated anything to begin with, and thats why God will reward him, because through the dead person you put the Gospel into action.
These works shouldnt be viewed as buying off God but as expressions of Love and Faith. It 'may' helps the dead, especially in the final Judgement. If our first judgement was complete and not partial then there would be no need for a second judgement by Christ. If you have a Setuaguint i suggest reading 2Macc 12.42-45. This is the scriptural basis for praying for the dead.

The other thing is, reality comes down to the fact, that the holier the person, the more prayers he recieves. A saint is prayed for every liturgy and on his feast day. Naturally a miserable evil person will not recieve as many prayers, instead people will say "good riddance". So whatever sins are forgiven are minor sins of already pious people. Another words the prayers benefit people of the Church Triumphant, it is the communion of the saints not neccesarily those in the doom and gloom of hades.

[Seda S.]

Thank you, Kosta, for the information. Because recently I read something in one of our holy fathers writings that saddened me greatly. He says that our prayers, almsgiving and remembering at the Liturgy can help only those deceased who themselves repented for their sins, but those who died without repentance, our prayers etc do not help them. He says, a sick person can be cured with medicine, but to a body which is already dead, the medicine cannot bring any profit. That is, a man who dies unrepented, is like a dead body which cannot be cured with medicine, that is, with our prayers and almsgiving. This father says this when he explains how it is dangerous for a person not to repent in time, not to confess his sins, consciously, thinking that after his repose his relatives will be able to help him with their prayers and almsgiving. Or when someone thinks that he will be able to help his relative who died, no matter what that man himself chose during his lifetime.

God is merciful, of course, and we are not able to measure His love for man, and we do not know in reality how He will judge at the Great Day of Judgement (maybe He will justify all humanity, we do not know anything, we just believe in His words concerning His judgement), but at the same time we know that He never violates one’s free will. If someone himself has denied Him and His salvation, can we be sure that our prayers and almsgiving will help them? These are things which, I think, are hidden from us. That is why the Church does not pray for every person who dies, but for those only who were members of the Church, or who were not apostates, or even atheists though baptised in the Church. So the will of the reposed person is also very important in this matter. Otherwise we would be able also to “save” everybody with our prayers and almsgiving. So, I think, we can, of course, pray and do everything we are able for the tranquillity and salvation of our reposed, but having in mind that, all the same, the decision of God concerning our reposed should be according to the will of our reposed and God. Do you remember, St John the Apostle even says that we should not pray for those with “sins unto death” (I John 5:16-17).

If I’m wrong in my understanding, correct me, pls.

I need to ask another question concerning the life after dead. St John Maximovich (of Shanhay) says that after death the soul of the man remains three days on the earth and visits places he liked during his lifetime. I’d like to find other sources too, telling about these three days. Do you know about them?

With love,

S.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Part of the mystery of prayer for the living and the departed is that we do not see clearly the desire which the person had for that which is good. This is because in this life such desire is still mixed in with that which is not yet purified. So we pray in hope and in the understanding that the soul of a person is not separated by God from the good they desired while in this life even if they were not entirely successful in attaining it.

And who could be entirely successful in this regard anyway? It is only God Who can fulfill this deeper desire of man. There is no good reason to think this desire is taken from man upon his repose. And so we pray in the hope that this desire can be continually fulfilled in the person now departed.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

Paul in addition to what is said above, offering prayers for the departed is not wrong because we are told by God to pray. Material donations are not what Church asks from us (because God said "free you received, free you will give"), but we out of love give and help with whatever we can. Do you remember the thread about the priest you said he could not purchase his glasses. What better than help him with some money and ask him for his prayers about a loved one? Also do not forget that Jewish people also brought offerings in the Temple as advised by God, not to "buy Him". Abel offered to God his best and he pleased God, Cain not. As we know even the first born belongs to God. So it is not that we offer Him things, because after all we have all these things from Him and He does not need us, or our offerings but it is pleasing for Him to see a compassionate heart, charitable heart, sacrificing heart like the one of the widow in the Temple. It does not matter for whom we offer something. It is important that we offer, and offer it with all our heart.

We all need prayers here and there, because as the funeral service says "there is no one who lived and not sinned". If Saint Athanasia in the 2nd post of this thread who was such a saint needed prayers and memorial meal given to the poor, how much more we need?

In the book called After Death which is written by Archim. Vasilios Bakogiannis, we read (pp. 89-98) that for the departed souls there are many things we can do which are very helpful:

The first group of prayers the book names Privately.

The first thing is alms. Today we celebrate Saint John the Merciful, Patriarch of Alexandria, who was a distinguished almsgiver.

1. Alms-giving

Anyone who has real need and is given alms is relived. And rejoices. And says "Thank You" from his or her soul. If, then, people in such a spiritual state pray to God for the person who gave them alms, the prayer has effect before God. This is why we should give alms for those in need and at the same time tell them to obtain forgiveness for such and such soul. A fisherman, religiously indifferent, gave a poor man a fish. "Let it be for my niece, Maria", he thought, without believing it. The same evening, the dead maria appeared to the poor man and said to him: "Tell my uncle that I received the fish, and thank him for it." (p.89)

2. Candles.
We light candles, the book says for the living and the dead and when we light it in front of a saint's icon it is a time of prayer and they intercede to God for the people we are praying. The author quotes: (Θησαυρος Δαμασκηνου, p.526).

3. Icon- lamps.
At the grave of the departed is a kind of prayer. I would add here incense also. That is what we burn at the grave of a dear one who has departed: oil-lamp and incense.

4. Altar bread, wine and oil.


Whatever we offer the Church for the performance of the Holy Liturgy, all these, too, help to expiate souls. The nun Sophiane, who went to the next world, relates:
"and the Angels came, bearing the alms, the liturgies, the candles, the oil, the altar-breads... besides, the intercessions of the poor who had received alms were heard, saying 'God forgive you'. Then the voice of the Master was heard, saying: 'Behold, through the prayers of my Priests and my brethren the poor, I grant forgiveness to this soul'" (Μεγας Συναξαριστις, August, p.112) (p.90)

5. Prayer.

Here the author gives the example of Saint Makarios who spoke with the skull of the pagan priest who was in Hell. The saint prayed in general for those in Hell. And the pagan priest told him about the comfort the souls of those in Hell find when Saint Macarios would pray for them. They would see each others faces.


In 1973, the mother of a monk, Father Seraphim of the Monastery of Saint Paul on the Holy Mountain, died. This monk asked Father Konstantinos, a virtuous monk of the same monastery to pray for his mother's soul. father Konstantinos did so for forty days. When this time had passed, Father Konstantinos saw in a vision a woman whom he did not know.

-Who are you?, he asked.
-Father Seraphim's mother.
-And what do you want?
-I came to tell you that through your prayer I found great relief and at the same time I want to thank you for what you did. (Γεροντικο of the Holy Mountain, vol.II, p.112) (p.91)

And what is more important:


Souls are not comforted only temporarily by our personal prayers, but something more bold, more astonishing happens. From Hell they go to Paradise.

In the life of Saint Thekla there is mention of a widow, Tryphanea, who had a daughter, Falconila, who died and went to Hell. And the dead Falconila said to her mother: "Mother, love that stranger, Thekla, and have her as your daughter in place of me, because she's a servant of God and can pray and the Lord will put me in the place where the righteous are". And this indeed happened. Through the prayers of Saint Thekla, Falconila went from Hell to Paradise. (Μεγας Συναξαριστις, September, pp. 508-511) (p.91)

The author mentions the life of Saint Paisios who prayed for a monk who was disobedient and went to Hell, but through the prayers of Saint Paisios he was saved and went to Paradise.

Another event he mentions is that of a monk who hid his hand with his vestment. When the Bishop with the monk was dining asked him why he hid his hand, the monk uncovered his hand and an unbearable odor arose:


"My mother was a widow. She was very beautiful and became a harlot. And died. When I realised the vanity of life, I became a monk. But I was extremely concerned as to whether my mother was saved or not. I went to Thebaida to see an elder, a famous ascetic and saint and asked him about it. For seven days the two of us stood and prayed fervently. And in a vision, I saw Hell, and my mother boiling in the cauldrons of Hell. And groaning 'My child, save me!' I snatched her from Hell and put her in Paradise. Then I awoke. And what did I see? My hand, with which I had seized my mother, was injured and stank unbearably, as now. The holy ascetic had the same vision." (p.92)

The author goes on to state:


Personal prayer on behalf of souls in not wasted. It is certainly beneficial to them. It either relives them temporarily or even gets them out of Hell. Which is why we have an obligation to pray for our departed brethren. To say "Lord have mercy" for them! What is a "Lord, have mercy" to us.
A matter of a second. For the soul, however, that second is a treasure! It can even gain eternity! (p.92)

The next group of prayers is Through the Church.

1. The Church by itself:

The author quotes the prayers the Church has for departed souls in (I will not include them but if someone needs it please let me know):

In the Midnight Office
At Mattins
At Vespers
At Compline
Saturdays of All Souls
At the Holy Liturgy
At the Litany at the Great Entrance
At the "Holy things to those who are holy"
And after "Especially our Most Holy Theotokos..."The next group is We through the Church:

What we offer for the celebration of the Divine Liturgy.

1. Thrice-Holies (or in Greek Trisagion).

These can be said everyday, either at the side of the grave of the deceased or in church before the icon of Christ. And the souls find relief.

The author mentions the story with Father Dimitris Gagastathis (+1975) who went with some villagers to collect the bones of 4 people killed by the resistance in August 1944. They heard cries and groans as if people were being tortured at that moment. When Fr. Gagastathis read the Thrice-Holy these cries and groans ceased. (p.95)

Also:


The Emperor Theophilos, who fought against the holy icons, was a heretic and went to Hell. His wife, Theodora, however, begged Patriarch Methodios to pray for his soul. SO the patriarch, together with other virtuous members of the clergy prayed fervently in Aghia Sophia for the whole of the first week of Great Lent (During this period they would have certainly have said Thrice-Holies and not performed the Divine Liturgy). Likewise, the Empress Theodora prayed with the whole of her court in the Church of the Mother of God. When Saturday dawned, Theodora saw Christ in a vision! And he said to her: "Woman, great is your faith. Know, therefore, that through your tears and your faith, and the entreaties of my priests I shall show favour to your husband, Theophilos: The miracle happened. The heretic Theophilos was saved. [...] This event is recorded in detail by the great Byzantinist Charles Diehl. (p.96)

2. The Divine Liturgy (Remembrance/Memorial Services).


The most acceptable sacrifice to God is the Divine Liturgy. Because in it and through it is sacrificed His beloved son for the salvation of the world. God accepts the Divine Liturgy with greater joy than any martyrdom which is endured for His sake. Because through a martyrdom one ordinary person is sacrificed and sanctified. While in the Divine Liturgy, God is sacrificed for the salvation and sanctification of the whole world. This is why the most effective prayer made on behalf of the deceased is the Divine Liturgy. Symeon of Thessaloniki writes: "Both in the evening and morning, prayer on behalf of the departed do not cease. Then the lawful and customary remembrance services are held, but especially and most importantly the daily bloodless sacrifice, than which nothing else is so profitable for the deceased, nor the cause of such joy and enlightenment and union with God, since the very blood of the Lord is that which is shed on behalf of us good-for-nothings in this sacrifice, and the divine Body itself is that which is sacrificed on the Holy Altar. This sacrifice is offered ceaselessly and every day by those close to the deceased according to the flesh, those spiritually united with them and those loving them most, all the time and for the whole of their lives, and the more they offer it, the more profitable it is for the deceased, for what can be more beneficial than Christ being sacrificed for us.
Some offer as much as they can and choose to, while others furnish this sacrifice and the other lawful remembrance services every day up to the fortieth at least" ("Απαντα" Saint Symeon of Thessaloniki, p.310). (pp. 96-97)

Examples:


Saint Gregory the Dialogist relates that a certain monk, Justus, who was avaricious, fell ill and died. Thirty consecutive liturgies were said for his soul. And he himself appeared one night to his brother after the flesh, Capiosus. The latter immediately asked him how he was getting on there. "So far it has been terrible, but now it is fine". Capiosus at once came to the monastery and divulged the dream to us. When we had reckoned up the days exactly, we found that indeed, on that very day, the thirtieth liturgy for the soul of the departed brother had been held (Ευεργετινος, vol. II, p.109).

And even more astonishing:
Saint Gregory the Dialogist said forty liturgies for the repose of the soul of the persecutor of the Church, Trajan (P.G. vol.95, 256C-264A). And God heard his petition and brought Trajan out of hell. God then reprimanded the saint, however, and told him not to pray for the impious again. [...] God reprimanded the saint after Trajan had left Hell! Not before. Oh, what Mercy! (pp. 97-98)

And the author mentions also the examples where God, Himself, told to Empress Theodora and Sophiane that through the prayers of His priests He will have mercy on the departed souls they prayed for. The prayer of the priest is as potent as that of the saints. (St. Athanasios the Great) (p. 96)

[Kypreos]

thank you all very much for your responses. it is clear through our holy fathers that the state of a soul is not fixed in one place after death, but can move.
is this position established by the church (ecumenical counsels)?
does it even have to be "approved" or "ruled on"by the ecumenical counsels in order to be accepted as dogma.

i ask because i was recently told that unless the ecumenical counsels approve an idea, then it cannot be considered Orthodox. therefore, this idea is heretical.

thank you for arming me with information.
may God forgive my pride and egotism,

[Nina]

it is clear through our holy fathers that the state of a soul is not fixed in one place after death, but can move.
is this position established by the church (ecumenical counsels)?
does it even have to be "approved" or "ruled on"by the ecumenical counsels in order to be accepted as dogma.

i ask because i was recently told that unless the ecumenical counsels approve an idea, then it cannot be considered Orthodox. therefore, this idea is heretical.


Well... is it heretical to pray? God Himself told us "seek and you will find". Praying for the departed classifies as prayer. Also as the author above mentions the Church prays itself for the departed souls:


In the Midnight Office
At Mattins
At Vespers
At Compline
Saturdays of All Souls
At the Holy Liturgy
At the Litany at the Great Entrance
At the "Holy things to those who are holy"
And after "Especially our Most Holy Theotokos..."So is the Church heretic for having such designated moments for prayers about the departed? Our Liturgy is our dogma.

I do not know about the Holy Canons though.

[Nina]

Another thing I was looking for yesterday and could not find is this:



On the Departed

Do you know much help the departed seek! Since there is no repentance after death, and as humans they also departed with stains and blemishes, and since they see that the help of the living greatly assists them to be perfected and find rest, they yearn, seek, and long for someone to commemorate them. They also long for one of their descendants to become a priest or a virtuous Christian who will care for them.

Let me tell you about a vision of a certain bishop which he himself told me while we were serving together years ago. He told us there was a priest who had a drinking problem and often got drunk; this was going on for many years. Other than this, though, the priest was virtuous and pious. One day he drank wine as usual and got drunk, and then before he was fully sober, he went and served Liturgy. So God allowed an accident to happen: he spilled the holy Body and Blood of the Lord! The poor fellow froze with fear, while also thinking about the heavy penance his bishop would give him!

Finally, after he confessed, his bishop told him, "Go--I will notify you when to return, and then I'll give you the penance." So as the bishop was all alone reflecting and pondering, and as he picked up a pen to write his decision to depose him, he saw an endless multitude of people of every age, kind and class unwind before him like a movie. The bishop was stunned by this vision but was also overcome with fear. Then all those people together said to him, "Your Eminence, do not punish the priest; do not depose him." Then, little by little, they disappeared.

Afterwards, the bishop called the priest to come. The poor priest was terrified, thinking about being deposed. The bishop said to him, "Tell me something, do you commemorate many names when you serve Liturgy?" The priest answered, "In the proskomidi, Your Eminence, I commemorate names for a long time--from kings and emperors down to the last pauper." The bishop then said to him, "Go, then, and whenever you serve Liturgy, commemorate as many people as you can, and take care not to get drunk anymore. You are pardoned." Thereafter, the priest--with the help of God--was delivered from drinking.
Selected from Counsels from the Holy Mountain

From the Letters and Homilies of Elder Ephraim

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Nina,
THANK YOU!

[Andreas Moran]

Elder Sophrony prayed the soul of his sister out of hell, though it took him one year of the most intense and exhausting prayer.

[Nina]

So is the Church heretic for having such designated moments for prayers about the departed? Our Liturgy is our dogma.

I do not know about the Holy Canons though.

Sorry, I was in a hurry yesterday and I should clarify this.

I meant Liturgy is also our dogma besides the Holy Canons because many things in the Holy Liturgy were either told to us by God Himself, or were decided by the Ecumenical Councils. However I do not know what the Holy Canons say on prayer about the departed.

I apologize again.

[Kypreos]

Another thing I was looking for yesterday and could not find is this:

Yes, I came across this passage today as well. Counsels from the Holy Mountain is truly one of my beloved texts.

[Kypreos]

Elder Sophrony prayed the soul of his sister out of hell, though it took him one year of the most intense and exhausting prayer.

Andreas,
Where can I find this info on Elder Sophrony? Is it online anywhere?

[Andrew]

thank you all very much for your responses. it is clear through our holy fathers that the state of a soul is not fixed in one place after death, but can move.
is this position established by the church (ecumenical counsels)?
does it even have to be "approved" or "ruled on"by the ecumenical counsels in order to be accepted as dogma.

i ask because i was recently told that unless the ecumenical counsels approve an idea, then it cannot be considered Orthodox. therefore, this idea is heretical.

thank you for arming me with information.
may God forgive my pride and egotism,

Ecumenical Councils defend Orthodox dogma against falsehood raised by heretics. There are a lot of issues that have been not of the magnitude needed to call for an Ecumenical Council, like teachings on life after death. There are many things in Orthodox doctrine that are part of the general life and experience of the Church that aren't necessarily put forward at Ecumenical Councils. I think that the idea that you can only believe something if it is proclaimed at an Ecumenical Council is false. That is kind of like Sola Scriptura only replace the Holy Scriptures with the Councils.

Also, the teaching that you are only "required" to accept things that have been proclaimed at an Ecumenical Council is Papist. The Church is not about mental assent to doctrinal statements... it is about living within the Body of Christ. Those who have come to know God pass down their experience to us. This is theology. Some of these holy Theologians speak about matters pertaining to life after death, so we listen.

[Andreas Moran]

Andreas,
Where can I find this info on Elder Sophrony? Is it online anywhere?

Unfortunately, this is in a book called, 'Letters to Russia' which was only published in Russian and which is now out of print. My wife has a copy. Whether this info is on line, I don't know. There are writings by Fr Sophrony which have yet to come to be published, and some published writings have not yet been translated from Russian into English. Many hours of Fr Sophrony's talks to his Community have been collected and are available on disc (MP3) but, of course, all in Russian. Fr Sophrony says a lot in these talks which he does not cover in the published books. It's really very frustrating - my wife sits listening to these talks, going, 'ooohh! Aaah!', and I'm asking, 'well what he's saying?!'

[Nina]

Ecumenical Councils defend Orthodox dogma against falsehood raised by heretics. There are a lot of issues that have been not of the magnitude needed to call for an Ecumenical Council, like teachings on life after death. There are many things in Orthodox doctrine that are part of the general life and experience of the Church that aren't necessarily put forward at Ecumenical Councils. I think that the idea that you can only believe something if it is proclaimed at an Ecumenical Council is false. That is kind of like Sola Scriptura only replace the Holy Scriptures with the Councils.

Also, the teaching that you are only "required" to accept things that have been proclaimed at an Ecumenical Council is Papist. The Church is not about mental assent to doctrinal statements... it is about living within the Body of Christ. Those who have come to know God pass down their experience to us. This is theology. Some of these holy Theologians speak about matters pertaining to life after death, so we listen.

Exactly! Thank you for this Andrew because lately we hear a lot the excuse "oh this is not a dogma!". There is no law against crossing the road without first looking too, but that does not mean that a person can not be run over by a car if he does, and that does not mean we should cross the road without looking first.

[Kosta]

I'm surprised someone would say that only those things confirmed by an ecumenical council is the only thing an Orthodox needs to believe. I would say that such a statement is not only false but heretical.

Unlike the RC church we do not call a council to define or pronouce upon anything UNLESS a controversy arises which begins to fragment the church. A council is only then summoned, in order to establish the right belief from wrong belief; anathemize the heretical view along with their heresiarchs. And most likely issue a dogmatic definition clarifying that which the Fathers always taught (right-belief).

There is no ecumenical council which has ever pronouced upon the real presence in the Eucharist, because there never has been a need to. Its a 2000 year undisputed fact. Likewise if there was no Arian heresy, then Constantine would have never summoned the first council of Nicea in 325 a.d. All 7 councils were summoned to deal with specific heresies which arose and was attacking the church.

In order to know what Orthodox christians believe, one must know how and what we worship. Under muslim and communist persection the D.L. and the entire annual liturgical cycle was the vehicle which preserved the Faith intact, complete and whole.

About praying someone out of hell, is merely a theologumen. Truth be told scripture condemns this belief (see Lk 16.26) as do the Apostolic Constitutions when commenting on the memorial services concerning those whu die unrepented. It is God's mercy that saves. The prayers and alms for the departed are expressions of Faith, Hope and Love. Our prayers represent what God has already promised.Thru the memorial prayers it brings to mind that we too are mortal and must repent. The dearly departed helps the living by keeping their mind on the prize. Its reciprocal, between the Church militant and the Church Triumphant.

[Nicolaj]

I don't mean to rehash an old thread, but is this not "buying off" God? Or buying indulgences as the RC used to do?



What the RC does and did was to sell to the extra benefits achieved by the saints, which the RC pope supposed to be laying unused around, and sell these to whom could effort this! It is still possible to buy your personal blessings from the pope.

And I would like anyone who would like to know more about what can be achieved for the departed by praying for them to read the book The soul after death by Father Seraphim Rose where he brings the story of the man who killed himself and was saved out of the darkness by the prayers and the fasting a nun did for him.

And here is at least the introduction to The letters to Russia from Elser Sophrony: http://sophrony.narod.ru/texts/predisl1.htm

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Father David Moser]

Some other books which I believe are in some ways superior to Fr Seraphim's work (not to say that it is not good - just that these others are better).

Eternal Mysteries Beyond the Grave a collection of articles by Archimandrite Panteleimon (one of the founders of Holy Trinity Monastery - Jordanville) This was Fr Seraphim Rose's "source book" for much of what he wrote in The Soul After Death

Life After Death by Metr Hierotheos of Nafpaktos - With his usual patristic and pastoral spiritual perspective, Metr. Hierotheos has treated this subject quite well and free of most of the argumentativeness that surrounds Fr Seraphim's work.

How Our Departed Ones Live by Monk Mitrophan - this is an excellent work originally published in th 19th century in Russia. It was reprinted in Russian by All Sts of Russian parish in Burlingame, CA and an English translation is also available by the same parish (the English edition is in stock at the Holy Virgin Cathedral bookstore in San Francisco)

Fr David Moser

[Herman Blaydoe]

There is also The Mystery of Death by Nikolaos P. Vassiliadis that I believe is very much in harmony with Metropolitan Hierotheos.

[Nicolaj]

Thanks Father David!

I was looking after reading the book of Father Seraphim for further reading but as it is not possible to find the book of Bishop Ignatij in some version, (I will have to wait till this will be republished again, I guess!) I am really graceful for your and Hermann's book tips!

In Christ, Nicolaj

[Richard A. Downing]

And here is at least the introduction to The letters to Russia from Elser Sophrony: http://sophrony.narod.ru/texts/predisl1.htm



Having a look at this old part of this thread I discovered that the Google Chrome browser makes a bad, but bearable, job of translating this from the Russian. At least I can get a little of the sense from it. I world dearly love to get more of my grandfather Sophrony's utterances in English.

Richard.