The first three days after death

[Seda S.]

I had to open this new thread because my question in the other thread remained unanswered and unnoticed.

St John Maximovich (of Shanhay) says that after death the soul of the man remains three days on the earth and visits places he liked during his lifetime. I’d like to find other sources too, especially earlier ones, telling about these three days.

With love,

S.

[Michael Stickles]

Here's an excerpt from an article online called The Church's Prayer For the Dead (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx):


When St. Macarius of Alexandria besought the angel who accompanied him in the desert to explain to him the meaning of the Church's commemoration on the third day, the angel replied to him: "When an offering is made in church on the third day, the soul of the departed receives from its guardian angel relief from the sorrow it feels as a result of the separation from the body.This it receives because glorification and offering is made in the Church of God which gives rise in it to blessed hope, for in the course of the two days the soul is permitted to roam the earth, wherever it wills, in the company of the angels that are with it. Therefore, the soul, loving the body, sometimes wanders about the house in which his body had been laid out, and thus spends two days like a bird seeking its nest. But the virtuous soul goes about those places in which it was wont to do good deeds. On the third day, He Who Himself rose from the dead on the third day commands the Christian soul, in imitation of His resurrection, to ascend to the Heavens to worship the God of all."

An online article on Orthodox funeral services (http://www.12apostles.co.uk/Orthodox%20Funeral.htm) states:



Monastics like St Antony the Great of Egypt (3rd – 4th century A.D.) and St Macarius of Egypt (4th century A.D.) who prayed in the Spirit and fasted received this revelation from Angels. The following details are from the angel’s testimony to St Macarius:

The journey of the Soul begins on the third day after death, when, according to the Angel, the body is to be brought to the Temple. At this point the Soul receives relief from the grief it felt from the time of its parting from the body. This relief comes only if the surviving members of the family pray for the soul in the Temple (this would be comparable to a wake period and funeral). We must note how important our prayer is for the peaceful journey of the soul. For a period of two days after death the Soul is allowed to wander all over the earth accompanied by its Guardian Angel. Since the Soul feels a strong attachment to the body it has left, it usually desires to be near the body (hovering in the place where the death occurred or with the body during the time of waking and funeral). The Angel notes that if the soul belonged to a "beneficent" person, then it would desire (during these two days) to wander in the places where it may perform "deeds of righteousness." The Soul during these two days is compared to a bird searching for a place to nest.

On the third day He who rose again from the dead commandeth that every Soul, in imitation of his own Resurrection, shall be brought to heaven, that it may do reverence to the God of all. Wherefore the Church hath the blessed custom of celebrating oblation and prayers on the third day for the Soul." After having done reverence to God, the Soul is shown the "fair abodes of the Saints and the beauty of Paradise." The Soul views these great marvels for a period of six days, during which it should do reverence to God. During this time the Soul forgets all sorrow it may have felt in life, overwhelmed by the joys of the Saints. If the Soul, however, is guilty of sins, then it begins to worry and moan at the sight of Paradise. The Soul grieves over how it wasted its time on Earth in vain pursuits and the pleasures of the flesh.

After having viewed all the joys of the Just for the space of six days, the Angels lead the Soul again to do reverence to God. Therefore the Church doth well, in that she celebrateth service and oblation for the Soul on the ninth day." After doing a second reverence to God, Christ commands that the Soul be sent to Hell where it is shown the places of torment, the different divisions of Hell, the diverse torments of the ungodly, "which cause the souls of sinners that find themselves therein to groan continually, and to gnash their teeth." The Soul remains in Hell observing the torments of the ungodly for a period of thirty days. On the fortieth day after death the Soul is again taken to do reverence to God. After the final reverence, our Lord Jesus Christ determines the proper place of incarceration for the Soul, according to its deeds. "Thus the Church doth rightly in making mention, upon the fortieth day, of the baptised dead.


You might also note a previous thread (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3996) on this topic.

In Christ,
Mike

[Seda S.]

Dear Mike

Thank you for the information. I looked through the site pages you have mentioned.

It's an interesting theme for me. There are both similarities, and differences in the teachings of the EO and my mother Churches concerning what happens to the soul after death. The story of St Macarius is unknown to us but there are many others both in Greek, and in Armenian, translated again from Greek, which do not mention about soul's remaining on the earth for three days, but show that the soul immediately starts its course, accompanied by angels or an angel, and meets demons' temptations etc. You know it of course. So it was very interesting for me to know more about it. Also the "Apostolic Constitutions" were unknown to us. So we commemorate the departed on the seventh and not the ninth day. But are the Apostolic Constitutions (not to be confused with the Rules of the Apostles) part of the Nomocanon of the EO Church? As far as I know, they were rejected in the past by a councel (of Trullo).

Thank you once again.

[Nina]

Part of the offering that it is mentioned is the koliva. When my mom passed away last year someone told me that because death is a shock for the soul, the soul is waiting anxiously near the person who makes the koliva and watches every step of it and waits. The soul receives great relief when the koliva is done and when the prayers are said by the priests. My cousin made the koliva when my mom passed away.

Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos writes in his book Life after death that the soul of the righteous goes straight to God because it can not wait to be united to Him. But the people who were attached to material and earthly things wander about. This latter case he describes brings a great suffering to the soul. It is compared to the suffering a body which is suffering from the consequences of an earthquake, goes through. Not only there is weight over the soul but it is pinned down like from sharp objects, which are the passions. That is why Fathers of the Church tell us to strive for apathia (passionless state) while living. The passions do not let the soul fly towards God, although it longs to fly to Him since it comes from Him. It is a great suffering for such a soul, because while in the body he could distract himself by the means of the body, but after it looses the body it can not find consolation. That is why the Holy Fathers tell us to try to have our nous always to God.

[Nina]

Ok I know it may have been my imagination but I will still share this with you. After my mom passed away she had a slight smile on her face and whenever I moved around her body I thought she was smiling at me and I could see a bit (just a tiny bit) of the green of her eyes (although the eyes were closed there was a bit of an opening when I stayed at the end of the casket). So the smile and that bit from the eyes I could see made me feel like she was playing "peekaboo" with me (like when I was a child). Maybe that was a merciful thing from God to keep me stronger while mom's lifeless body was there (she was the first departed person I ever saw in my life). However after the funeral service at church her face was bright and her smile was much broader... I was like crushed and sad during the service, but when I went to kiss my mother at the end and saw her face and smile I received inner joy and more strength. When we went at the cemetery and the priest opened the casket before the burial for the prayers, her smile was gone... before the priest closed the casket and I saw her for the last time, my mom was not smiling...
I have thought these might have been just my brain trying to cope with her loss, but that is what happened.

[Seda S.]

A similar thing happened also with me. Two years ago one of my relatives, a lady in her forties, died. Almost an hour later I entered their house. Her eyes were open and looking upwards and a small smile was on her lips. It was like she was extreemly happy. I thought she had been received by the angel with happiness. But on the day of her burial there was no smile on her face and she was gloomy.

[Seda S.]

This topic is so important. Perhaps, the most important. We deal with something which will happen to all of us, at any minute of our life. When we decide to go to some place, we inquire about that place, the transport means, we prepare our bags, we finish the most important works before our departure etc...

[Nina]

This topic is so important. Perhaps, the most important. We deal with something which will happen to all of us, at any minute of our life. When we decide to go to some place, we inquire about that place, the transport means, we prepare our bags, we finish the most important works before our departure etc...

Yes! That's what Fathers say! Have always death in front of you and you will not sin. And your words are so similar to Met. Hierotheos and some Fathers.

[Michael Stickles]

Also the "Apostolic Constitutions" were unknown to us. So we commemorate the departed on the seventh and not the ninth day. But are the Apostolic Constitutions (not to be confused with the Rules of the Apostles) part of the Nomocanon of the EO Church? As far as I know, they were rejected in the past by a councel (of Trullo).

I missed the mention of them in the article on the funeral service. You are correct; they were - apparently - rejected by Canon II at Trullo:


IT has also seemed good to this holy Council, that the eighty-five canons, received and ratified by the holy and blessed Fathers before us, and also handed down to us in the name of the holy and glorious Apostles should from this time forth remain firm and unshaken for the cure of souls and the healing of disorders. And in these canons we are bidden to receive the Constitutions of the Holy Apostles [written] by Clement. But formerly through the agency of those who erred from the faith certain adulterous matter was introduced, clean contrary to piety, for the polluting of the Church, which obscures the elegance and beauty of the divine decrees in their present form. We therefore reject these Constitutions so as the better to make sure of the edification and security of the most Christian flock; by no means admitting the offspring of heretical error, and cleaving to the pure and perfect doctrine of the Apostles.

The last sentence seems to mean that the whole of the "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles" was rejected, but this seems to contradict the fact that the 85 canons were affirmed, one of which bids us to receive the Apostolic Constitutions. Now, I have seen Canon II summarized as "Whatever additions have been made through guile by the heterodox in the Apostolic Constitutions edited by Clement, shall be cut out," which would remove that difficulty (though not the difficulty of figuring out which parts were which). In that view, "these Constitutions" refers to the "certain adulterous matter" mentioned in the previous sentence, and the "pure and perfect doctrine of the Apostles" is the unadulterated part of the Constitutions. Unfortunately, I don't know for sure which interpretation is the correct EO one (or at least is closer to it).

In Christ,
Mike

[Seda S.]

The last sentence seems to mean that the whole of the "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles" was rejected, but this seems to contradict the fact that the 85 canons were affirmed, one of which bids us to receive the Apostolic Constitutions. Now, I have seen Canon II summarized as "Whatever additions have been made through guile by the heterodox in the Apostolic Constitutions edited by Clement, shall be cut out," which would remove that difficulty (though not the difficulty of figuring out which parts were which). In that view, "these Constitutions" refers to the "certain adulterous matter" mentioned in the previous sentence, and the "pure and perfect doctrine of the Apostles" is the unadulterated part of the Constitutions. Unfortunately, I don't know for sure which interpretation is the correct EO one (or at least is closer to it).

In Christ,
Mike

Dear Mike, thank you for that quotation.
I see that by the word "Constitutions" in one case the "Rules (or Canons) of Holy Apostles" are meant (those 85 canons, also prescribed to Clement), and in the second case the 8 volumes of "Apostolic Constitutions" which we can find in the Ante-Nicean Fathers volumes. That is, only those 85 canons are accepted, anything else under the name "Apostolic Constitutions" is rejected. Frankly speaking, I didn't know that the 85 Apostolic canons were part of the "Apostolic Constitutions". I thought they were different groups of canons. Well, when I have time, I'll try to compare these two groups of canons,
it's interesting.

Thank you.

In love,

S.

[Kosta]

Its important to note that the tradition of the lingering soul after death is not officially accepted in Orthodoxy. It should be considered as a pious tradition but not affirmed by any liturgical text, scripture or canon.

In fact the belief that the soul remains for three days is not as popular as the belief that the soul remains for 40 days in the greek tradition. As Christ remained for 40 days; and ate fish on his final day with his disciples likewise the human soul remains with us for 40 days and we eat fish for the makaria (memorial supper) in celebration of the 40th day ascension. Sort of a bon voyage party for the soul. But this is only if you believe in this tradition. The soul lingering is a non-official belief. The parallel is, as the jews wandered for 40 years before entering the promised land, the soul wanders for 40 days before entering Paradise.

In the three day lingering of the soul, it originates from the fact that ancients would at times watch a deceased body for three days before burying it, in cases where the person died under unknown circumstances. There was an ancient belief that the soul remained for three days on earth and it may re-enter the body, so they didnt want to bury a potentially alive person who only appeared as dead. Some see a parallel to this, in the case of Jesus raising Lazarus.

The thing to keep in mind is that attaching symbolism to the 3rd & 40th day memorial and symbolism to the kolyva is a non-official pious tradition but not supported by the Liturgical texts or canons or scripture or the majority of the Church Fathers.

[Andreas Moran]

I'm just thinking about the soul of the Good Thief which didn't linger anywhere but went straight to Paradise according to our Lord's words.

[Andrew]

I would assume there is much variety in how things work for people after they die. Some go straight to God. Others linger about for a bit. Some get caught by the demons, by their passionate attachments. Others experience other things. The various traditions having to do with people's passing aren't wrong... or merely pious country folk traditions. Symbolic numbers do pertain to a non-temporal, non-physical reality of the soul being seperated from the body. Three days or forty days can be the same thing when a person's soul is sustained by God. These numbers give an ordered means for us to go about praying for the reposed, and the days do have meaning in the light of Christ. I don't think we should over-literalize, but at the same time we shouldn't disregard these traditions.

[Seda S.]

I would assume there is much variety in how things work for people after they die. Some go straight to God. Others linger about for a bit. Some get caught by the demons, by their passionate attachments. Others experience other things. The various traditions having to do with people's passing aren't wrong... or merely pious country folk traditions. Symbolic numbers do pertain to a non-temporal, non-physical reality of the soul being seperated from the body. Three days or forty days can be the same thing when a person's soul is sustained by God. These numbers give an ordered means for us to go about praying for the reposed, and the days do have meaning in the light of Christ. I don't think we should over-literalize, but at the same time we shouldn't disregard these traditions.

Yes, this is true. Especially, that we do not know the time and other measurements of the "aeon" where the soul enters after leaving this material body.

[Nicolaj]

I would assume there is much variety in how things work for people after they die. Some go straight to God. Others linger about for a bit. Some get caught by the demons, by their passionate attachments. Others experience other things. The various traditions having to do with people's passing aren't wrong... or merely pious country folk traditions. Symbolic numbers do pertain to a non-temporal, non-physical reality of the soul being seperated from the body. Three days or forty days can be the same thing when a person's soul is sustained by God. These numbers give an ordered means for us to go about praying for the reposed, and the days do have meaning in the light of Christ. I don't think we should over-literalize, but at the same time we shouldn't disregard these traditions.

The soul seperated from the body is aware of time!

It isn't taken in something like a 'cosmic flow'.

And to have a proper orthodox knowledge about the state of the soul after death you should learn about it what the church teaches about this, instead of believing all and nothing!
These are not just traditions like the christmas tree these are truths! I hope you notice that there is a difference between them!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Nina]

I would assume there is much variety in how things work for people after they die. Some go straight to God. Others linger about for a bit. Some get caught by the demons, by their passionate attachments. Others experience other things.

Read the work of Metropolitan Hierotheos, Life after death. It is a synthesis of the thought of the Fathers on the matter and it is beautiful and an eye-opener.

The souls of the righteous and the deified go straight to God because they long for Him and if in the midst of material things they lived like angels and spiritual beings turning their nous and energy towards Him at all times, what will happen when they are rid of the material body? They fly like eagles straight towards God. I read this somewhere but I do not recall where.

[Seda S.]

The soul seperated from the body is aware of time!

It isn't taken in something like a 'cosmic flow'.

And to have a proper orthodox knowledge about the state of the soul after death you should learn about it what the church teaches about this, instead of believing all and nothing!
These are not just traditions like the christmas tree these are truths! I hope you notice that there is a difference between them!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

Dear Nikolay

Of course, the soul separated from the body is aware of time, no one told the contrary. But do you know how that time is measured, how the time passes and is counted there or how the space in those new conditions is felt? Can you, for example, measure with our measurements and show the place of the "air" which is inhabited by demons? That place exists, it is true, but it is not in our "space". When the angels or saints hear our prayers and sometimes very quickly, immediately (but think WHERE they are), or appear or disappear suddenly, etc, can we explain all of this with the measures of this physical world?

And really those "different" traditions exist but they are all part of the "same" and one tradition, and I think, this is what Andrew said. Also, many things, really true things, are described by the saints figuratively, one may say, "in the spiritual language". If we believe and confess that, for example, the angels are comprehensible, spiritual beings but the Bible or the saints describe an angel in the human appearance, we do not conclude from this that the angels have our appearance. Yet this does not mean that those stories and describtions are not true.

Forgive me, if I myself haven't understood you and wrote all of this.

With love in the Lord,

S.

[Stuart Dunn]

Read the work of Metropolitan Hierotheos, Life after death. It is a synthesis of the thought of the Fathers on the matter and it is beautiful and an eye-opener.

Parts of this work can be found here (http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.00.htm), for those who need a quick reference to it.

[Father David Moser]

This is one of the books that I mentioned in my post (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=53683&postcount=24) in the "State of the Soul after death" thread (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4313)


How Our Departed Ones Live by Monk Mitrophan - this is an excellent work originally published in th 19th century in Russia. It was reprinted in Russian by All Sts of Russian parish in Burlingame, CA and an English translation is also available by the same parish (the English edition is in stock at the Holy Virgin Cathedral bookstore in San Francisco)

In the beginning of this book it notes the signficance of the 3rd, 9th and 40th days after death. I might have some of the text in my archives (I did the initial editing after the translation) and if so I will post the relevant segment. In any case the book is well worth reading for those with an interest in the topic.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

I might have some of the text in my archives (I did the initial editing after the translation) and if so I will post the relevant segment. In any case the book is well worth reading for those with an interest in the topic.

Fr David Moser

Please do post it, if you can, Father.

[Nicolaj]

Of course, the soul separated from the body is aware of time, no one told the contrary. But do you know how that time is measured, how the time passes and is counted there or how the space in those new conditions is felt? Can you, for example, measure with our measurements and show the place of the "air" which is inhabited by demons? That place exists, it is true, but it is not in our "space".

And really those "different" traditions exist but they are all part of the "same" and one tradition, and I think, this is what Andrew said.
S.

Dear Seda,

I just said that they are aware that time is passing! Without this, it doesn't make sense to talk about the 3rd, the 9th and the 40th day after passing away, to be that important as they are!


Three days or forty days can be the same thing

This wrote Andrew and this isn't true! It is true that for God a day is like thousand years and thousand years are like a day but that is it the way it is to God! For us and the Saints and all the departed, time goes by!
And also in the life after death time has a meaning for all awaiting the second coming of our Lord.


Yet this does not mean that those stories and describtions are not true.

As long as they are orthodox they are okay, as they appear not to be, they are a product of demons!

Christos voskrese! (after THREE days!!) Nicolaj

[Nina]

What is amazing (and frightening at the same time) is the amount of time the departed soul spends visiting Hell versus Paradise. It means that Hell is larger, has more people? I do not know. Maybe someone of you knows what Fathers say about this. However I tend to think that Hell has more people for the reason that the departed soul needs so much time to visit Hell. Also as a Father has said "the number of people who go to Hell is like the number of leaves that fall during autumn, and the number of those who go to Paradise is like the number of leaves that remain on trees during winter". Interesting numbers.

[Seda S.]

Christos voskrese! (after THREE days!!) Nicolaj

Voistinu voskrese, dear Nicolaj.
And good that you wrote the rest: (after THREE days!!). For so many years I have been trying to count those three days by "our" days, and the result never is 3 but even not complete 2. I read explanations on that matter, but they never convince me. But what is more important for me is that the Lord truly rose from the dead and made me happy. The three days and my understanding of that three is not important for me at all.

With love in the Lord,

S.

[Nina]

Dear Seda,

Christ Himself said that He will rise in three days: (Mk. 8, 31) (Matt. 27, 63) etc.

Here is what is said in the book The Feasts of the Lord by Metropolitan Hierotheos:


Everyone says that Christ rose from the tomb after three days. [...] But a problem is created about the three days, about where they are counted from and how they are measured, since we know that Christ died at three o'clock in the afternoon on Good Friday and He rose in the morning hours of Sunday.

St. John of Damaskos gives the interpretation that we really have three nights and three days in which Christ was in the tomb. Interpreting the circumstances of the crucifixion, he says that according to the Old Testament God called the darkness night and the light day. So the darkness that occurred during the crucifixion, from twelve noon to three in the afternoon is night, since the sun was not darkened by any cloud which hid the sun's rays. Thus darkness fell upon the whole world, because the light energy which came from the body of the sun departed. From three o'clock to the regular sunset of Friday we have a day. This completed the first night and day. Then we have the night of Friday and the morning of Saturday, which is counted as a second night and day. And the end of Saturday night and the beginning, the dawn of Sunday, when Christ rose, form the third night and day.

The holy martyr Anastasios of Sinai gives another interpretation, which goes in the same framework. He says that according to the Old Testament the day is counted with the evening included. In the book of Genesis it says: "So the evening and the morning were the first day" (Gen. 1,5). Likewise the whole is also calculated by the part.

Therefore, according to St. Anastasios, the hour when Christ died, as a part of the day of Friday which began on Thursday afternoon, is counted as the first day, and the day of Saturday is calculated as the second day, and the evening of Saturday until the daybreak of Sunday when Christ rose, since it is made up of part of Sunday, is regarded as a third day.

Personally I believe that the interpretation of St. John of Damascos seems more acceptable, without excluding the interpretation of St. Anastasios as well. At any rate, Christ remained in the tomb three days and three nights.

Important too is the reason why Christ rose after three days and not in a shorter or longer space of time. Christ could have risen immediately after His death on the Cross, but He rose on the third day in order to make more credible the mystery of His death, which might otherwise have been doubted. He did not wait longer, letting the mystery of the resurrection be slandered in the intervening time. For the longer the delay, the more problems and questions would be created in the minds of the Jews and the Disciples (Macarios Chrysocephalos). Therefore the time of the three days was the most suitable for the mystery of the death not to be doubted and the mystery of Christ's Resurrection not to be slandered. (pp. 253-254)

[Nicolaj]

Okay and here is another explanation about the three days.

As God created Earth he also created time. He created Earth in six days and rested on the seventh day. Looking at the things created and seeing how well it was done.

As man fall into sin, he became imperfect, and his view of creation became imperfect. The way to heaven was closed.

As Jesus gave his life on the cross, he reunited the whole creation again and so this is the sixth day where creation was perfected, once again!

The day he rose from the grave is the ultimate Eighth Day, the perfected and most Holy Day.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Nina]

Okay and here is another explanation about the three days.

As God created Earth he also created time. He created Earth in six days and rested on the seventh day. Looking at the things created and seeing how well it was done.

As man fall into sin, he became imperfect, and his view of creation became imperfect. The way to heaven was closed.

As Jesus gave his life on the cross, he reunited the whole creation again and so this is the sixth day where creation was perfected, once again!

The day he rose from the grave is the ultimate Eighth Day, the perfected and most Holy Day.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

Actually Nicolaj, this what you say is exactly also what Metropolitan Hierotheos continues to write about, as he quotes St. Gregory Palamas, St. Basil the Great. You are so right!

"Light came into being on Sunday, the first day of creation. It was on Sunday, the first day of the re-creation, that the light of the Resurrection appeared."

Also according to St. Gregory - as quoted by Metropolitan Hierotheos in the same book - Sunday is called the eighth day because on that day Christ's Resurrection took place, which is the eighth raising in history (after the three in the OT by Prophets Elijah and Elisha and the four from Christ in the NT).

[Herman Blaydoe]

The answer is really very simple. The idea of "zero" as a starting point had not been "invented" in the semetic cultures yet. That is why we go from 1 BC to 1 AD. There is no "Year Zero". The "first" day (Friday) counts as day 1, not day 0. Saturday is day 2, and Sunday is day 3. Plain and simple, at least to this simple mind.

Herman

[Nicolaj]

The answer is really very simple. The idea of "zero" as a starting point had not been "invented" in the semetic cultures yet. Plain and simple, at least to this simple mind.

Herman

Well Herman, this has nothing to do with mathematics, but all with a way to look at creation. God does not creates nothing, as result from this, nothing does not exists, and therefore there is no zero needed!

In Christ, Nicolaj

[Patrick]

The work mentioned by Seda S. is found here

Life After Death (http://www.orthodox.net/articles/life-after-death-john-maximovitch.html)

It is quite an interesting read, and it seems to make much sense. Is there anything in this article that seems to be a problem to the Church or its beliefs?

[Kosta]

The work mentioned by Seda S. is found here

Life After Death (http://www.orthodox.net/articles/life-after-death-john-maximovitch.html)

It is quite an interesting read, and it seems to make much sense. Is there anything in this article that seems to be a problem to the Church or its beliefs?

Personally i do find it problematic. The soul lingering 3 days as an absolute truth even though no liturgical text attests to it, is more folklore than anything.
In most instances, as the scriptures verify with the repentant thief and Stepehen the pro-martyr, as well as the hymns of the church, the soul immediately is taken. If God wishes a soul to remain it can, whether 72 hours, 24 hours or even months, thats up to God. (Ironically in the greek version of toll houses, the soul lingering is completely absent).
That demons snatch souls and take them to hades is another problem. Its something not found anywhere, even the hymns and prayers that speak of demons at the hour of our death, 'seeking to take us' does not mention this. Most of the hymns and prayers speak of the fear that takes place at the hour of death as our sins become apparent as demons accuse us, and none mention that the demons take us to Hades.
The story of St Antony, and St Macarius and even Justin Martyr's commentary on the prophecy of the crucifixion, simply speak of how demons hinder us from ascending, and this is what St Mark of Ephesus suggested when he said, "But some (minor sins) must be cleansed in the very departure from the body thru fear as St Gregory the Dialogist shows, while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or if their sins were more serious and bind them for a longer duration, they are kept in hades....

No mention of toll houses or that demons snatch souls and deliver them to hades. But it does mention that some souls must be cleansed of minor sins AFTER the departure from the body, before they are added to the lot of the saved. Anotherwords we have here a tradition of the lingering soul, lingering because it is hindered from ascending by the powers of the air, until God wills it to, not that they have authority to run Hades.

The story of the toll houses as it comes down to us today, and i specifically refer to the russian version, is based on the vision of St Theodora and Basil the new, which is heretical and quite cartoonish and not an Orthodox writing. Many other aspects of the toll houses are also based on forgeries.

[Patrick]

Personally i do find it problematic. The soul lingering 3 days as an absolute truth even though no liturgical text attests to it, is more folklore than anything.
In most instances, as the scriptures verify with the repentant thief and Stepehen the pro-martyr, as well as the hymns of the church, the soul immediately is taken. If God wishes a soul to remain it can, whether 72 hours, 24 hours or even months, thats up to God. (Ironically in the greek version of toll houses, the soul lingering is completely absent).
That demons snatch souls and take them to hades is another problem. Its something not found anywhere, even the hymns and prayers that speak of demons at the hour of our death, 'seeking to take us' does not mention this. Most of the hymns and prayers speak of the fear that takes place at the hour of death as our sins become apparent as demons accuse us, and none mention that the demons take us to Hades.
The story of St Antony, and St Macarius and even Justin Martyr's commentary on the prophecy of the crucifixion, simply speak of how demons hinder us from ascending, and this is what St Mark of Ephesus suggested when he said, "But some (minor sins) must be cleansed in the very departure from the body thru fear as St Gregory the Dialogist shows, while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or if their sins were more serious and bind them for a longer duration, they are kept in hades....

No mention of toll houses or that demons snatch souls and deliver them to hades. But it does mention that some souls must be cleansed of minor sins AFTER the departure from the body, before they are added to the lot of the saved. Anotherwords we have here a tradition of the lingering soul, lingering because it is hindered from ascending by the powers of the air, until God wills it to, not that they have authority to run Hades.

The story of the toll houses as it comes down to us today, and i specifically refer to the russian version, is based on the vision of St Theodora and Basil the new, which is heretical and quite cartoonish and not an Orthodox writing. Many other aspects of the toll houses are also based on forgeries.

Just a little question. Based off of your post and many writings, it can be said that toll-houses exist in some form or another (by toll-houses, demons hindering our ascent and accusing us of sins, etc.). I believe this portion to be true. However, I believe that the teaching of toll-houses needs to be elaborated upon and drawn more from the Patristic sources before it can be said what is the nature of the toll-houses and the "science" (forgive my usage of the word, I can't think of anything better at the moment) behind them. But, for now, the "science" behind toll-houses can be described as a mystery of sorts. This is my belief at the moment. I will say that I have not researched them well to make a good judgment, so if my conclusions are in contradiction with someone or what is considered to be the Truth, forgive me and pray to God that He will grant me the understanding to make better conclusions in the future.

[Father David Moser]

For those who have access to Orthodox Life, the newly released issue No.5 of 2008 (Page 19) has an article on the aerial toll houses that puts the discussion in a very acceptable light as regards our spiritual condition.

Fr David Moser

[Patrick]

For those who have access to Orthodox Life, the newly released issue No.5 of 2008 (Page 19) has an article on the aerial toll houses that puts the discussion in a very acceptable light as regards our spiritual condition.

Fr David Moser

Father, do you have a link to said article. I doubt you are allowed to put type the article or type excerpts from the article. I am interest in reading it.

[Father David Moser]

Father, do you have a link to said article. I doubt you are allowed to put type the article or type excerpts from the article. I am interest in reading it.

As far as I know it is not online. I would assume that you could purchase the single issue from Holy Trinity Monastery (but you might as well subscribe as it is a good magazine - one of (if not the) the earliest English Language Orthodox publications still in print).

Fr David Moser

[Andrew]

The book Experiences During the Divine Liturgy by Fr. Stephanos Anagnostopoulos has a good chapter on the toll houses and the death experience.

[Nina]

This just came to me by email and I thought it is interesting re the toll houses:


On the Departed


We received the telegram regarding the departure of our beloved sister, and as is human, we grieved. We shed tears, which bear witness to our souls' unity through the unbreakable bond of love in Christ.

But we must also rejoice for the great "lottery" she won. First of all, because she kept her virginity--that great jewel on the garment of her pure soul. Second, she endured the Lord's visitation through her illness and lifted her cross until the Golgotha of her perfection, thus proving to be a true disciple of Jesus. Third, because she was given the Angelic Schema, which she did not defile with new sins, and which the Holy Fathers have decreed to be a second baptism!

So, cleansed thenceforth by the baptism of repentance, she departed. Our sweet Jesus has called her to be by His side from now on so that she may see His theandric face to her utmost delight. There she will intercede perpetually not only for her parents and the rest of her relatives, but also for the whole world.

Once St. Anthony the Great was in ecstasy and saw himself being lifted by the angels to heaven, as if he were departing to the Lord. But the adverse powers--the demons, the toll-houses--were obstructing him and accusing him for sins he had done. The holy angels were objecting, saying, "All the sins he committed before becoming a monk were forgiven by God the moment he wore the Schema. Only sins he did after receiving the Schema you have the right to use against him." Once the angels said this, the demons could not find anything culpable, and thus he ascended freely.



Selected from Counsels from the Holy Mountain from the Letters and Homilies of Elder Ephraim

[Mary Horey]

Ok I know it may have been my imagination but I will still share this with you. After my mom passed away she had a slight smile on her face and whenever I moved around her body I thought she was smiling at me and I could see a bit (just a tiny bit) of the green of her eyes (although the eyes were closed there was a bit of an opening when I stayed at the end of the casket). So the smile and that bit from the eyes I could see made me feel like she was playing "peekaboo" with me (like when I was a child). Maybe that was a merciful thing from God to keep me stronger while mom's lifeless body was there (she was the first departed person I ever saw in my life). However after the funeral service at church her face was bright and her smile was much broader... I was like crushed and sad during the service, but when I went to kiss my mother at the end and saw her face and smile I received inner joy and more strength. When we went at the cemetery and the priest opened the casket before the burial for the prayers, her smile was gone... before the priest closed the casket and I saw her for the last time, my mom was not smiling...
I have thought these might have been just my brain trying to cope with her loss, but that is what happened.

No, Nina, I don't think it was your imagination. Many people saw this happen at my church when a member died. His smile was deepened as if he were alive as the priest spoke of him, after the Divine Liturgy. Then, it faded before the casket was closed. It's just another way Our Lord reminds us that this earthly life is not the end.

[Paul Cowan]

This is the best example of a miracle around this topic. Elder Joseph of Vatopedi (http://www.pantanassa.co.za/Heavenly-Hosts/elders/a-modern-elder-reposes/the-miracle-of-elder-joseph-of-vatopaidi-who-smiled-45-minutes-after-his-death)