Fasting during Thanksgiving

[Troy Duker]

Do the Orthodox Christian, during the Nativity Fast, fast on Thanksgiving?

[Herman Blaydoe]

Like with many things, it depends. Local customs differ. Some bishops allow a dispensation for Thanksgiving. For Orthodox Christians following the Julian Calendar, it is not an issue because their Nativity Fast hasn't started yet. Non-American Orthodox Christians don't do Thanksgiving and Canadian Orthodox already had theirs.

[Troy Duker]

Thanks, I was just curious. I thought darn that must be a sacrifice. HAHA!

[Andrew]

Vladyko Dmitri says that we should relax the fast on Thanksgiving, one reason being that it is truly a day with spiritual significance.

[Glenn Turner]

Do the Orthodox Christian, during the Nativity Fast, fast on Thanksgiving?
My wife and I converted from protestantism and we do observe this fast. However, all our family members are protestant, so, when we are with them, we eat what they eat.

[Nicolaj]

My wife and I converted from protestantism and we do observe this fast. However, all our family members are protestant, so, when we are with them, we eat what they eat.

The Fathers says us that the first sin committed was the breaking of the Fast!

They did commit this, just to please the 'others'!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Mary]

The Fathers says us that the first sin committed was the breaking of the Fast!

They did commit this, just to please the 'others'!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

I'm sure this has come up in ALL threads that have anything to do with fasting. When we've been invited for a meal by un-fasting family or friends, it is because they love us, not because they wish to tempt us. I know they're not tempting us, because they do not know about the nativity fast, or our other fasts during the year. As I recall, there's a command somewhere that we're to fast in secret, therefore, we do not go around telling everyone that we're fasting, and if it comes up in conversation, and we have indeed mentioned it to them sometime in the past, we do not expect them to remember. There is a slight chance that they may remember Great Lent, but not everything else.

So, instead of drawing attention to our ascetic endevours, which are pathetic enough to begin with, we graciously accept their invitation, and avoid pigging out. We take something full of vegetables if they'll let us contribute to the meal, if not, we don't. I know there's a balance somewhere, and I don't think a relationship is worth sacrificing for a meal, especially in this time, when relationships are becoming more and more rare.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Nina]

With the blessing of your spiritual father you can do anything he blesses you to do.

[Nicolaj]

When we've been invited for a meal by un-fasting family or friends, it is because they love us, not because they wish to tempt us.

When they really did love you they know about your faith and your fasting and they really made some thinking about what to offer to eat!

And the rule that Jesus gave his disciples about fasting is just about fasting, not about breaking the fast!


I know there's a balance somewhere

What balance do you mean? Why is it that you are ashamed for your religion?
A muslim nor a budhist would never ever reject his fasting just to please others!

Nor did the Fathers, neither they were monks or living in the world.


I don't think a relationship is worth sacrificing for a meal

What about the heavenly meal, this is for sure the meal you are sacrificing!

I myself always was very sloppy in this things, but my father told me that this all is connected and this is also a cross to bear. So it is vital for a fulfilled Christian life.

Don't be upset, just try as hard as you can, and allow God to add what is needed.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Sitting up here in cold, snowy Canada where Thanksgiving was over a month ago I wonder if there ever was an answer to the question of what is done on American Thanksgiving if you have already begun the Nativity Fast?

Is there a general practice about this? This is one of those situations where I can understand the need for a dispensation. Especially when it comes to participating in larger family meals with non-Orthodox relatives and friends.

Come to think of it as I see that American Thanksgiving actually is on a Thursday is there a particular day on which the thanksgiving meal is held?

Thanks.

-A Canadian on the Old Calendar who has not yet begun the Nativity Fast.

[Katerina]

This subject is something I personally learned from since I was married to a Catholic. His family, particularly his mother, when they slowly learned of Orthodoxy and how I do things ( I was quiet and tried to do what I could in picking the foods that I ate- otherwise they would think I was high and mighty- and this does not teach anyone anything), they said-"oh, yes, this was a rule we used to have or now we don't have to do that anymore." By my humililty (or at least I tried, as humility is something that one has to work on every minute of the day!!) and quiet observance, and then just accepting what they were offering, they slowly learned of the ways that they themselves had once before, and the whys of it, and the seed was slowly planted. As a result, they went out of their way to make sure I had food I could eat. If I had simply said "I do not eat meat because of lent, and that is the end of that etc....I would have been met with stony silence and then uproar, etc. The world is not an easy place, nor was it before our time, but we must, with prayer, quiet perseverence , humility and discernment continue to "teach" in this quiet way. Each situation warrants something different and you feel which is appropriate to mention and when to discuss your fasting and its reasons.



A muslim nor a budhist would never ever reject his fasting just to please others!

But WE are not muslims or buddhists! They can be extremist and this is what we must strive NOT to be. I for one understand that fasting is for one's own spiritual benefit, not others. I do what my spiritual father says is most beneficial for me and my situation, as it warrants and this may be different for others depending on their spiritual "status" so to speak, or what their strengths are. Not all fasting is beneficial for the soul, since some are too weak and sick, and therefore the fasting would be for naught since their focus would be on trying to feel well- even St. Seraphim says so!

Just my little two cents worth....

[Katerina]

Sitting up here in cold, snowy Canada where Thanksgiving was over a month ago I wonder if there ever was an answer to the question of what is done on American Thanksgiving if you have already begun the Nativity Fast?

Is there a general practice about this? This is one of those situations where I can understand the need for a dispensation. Especially when it comes to participating in larger family meals with non-Orthodox relatives and friends.

Come to think of it as I see that American Thanksgiving actually is on a Thursday is there a particular day on which the thanksgiving meal is held?

Thanks.

-A Canadian on the Old Calendar who has not yet begun the Nativity Fast.

As a matter of fact, I remember in years past, down in Nyack, NY the parish there held Thanksgiving the week before if the fast were to begin the Monday before, and they had a molieben too.

I know that people do get dispensation for eating on that special day with their families (Mostly as you said, those whose families that are large, and this is especially hardest for converts).

One year, my mom had a Tofurkey since the Nativity fast had begun (old calendar), and I can honestly say that was awful. I for one, don't like something that is made to be something it is not. Better to have good simple seafood or a vegetable dish...after all, we are giving thanks for our bounty and our wonderful friends and family!

[Michael Stickles]

In discussing fasting, let us not violate the call of the Scriptures not to judge, just as Paul says in Romans 14:


Let not him who eats despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains, pass judgment on him who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another?

Remember that even with the canons regarding the requirement to fast, the bishops allowed discretion regarding specific situations; thus, in the Canonical Answers of Timothy the Most Holy Bishop of Alexandria (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvii.xxiv.html?highlight=fast#highlight)(o ne of the 150 Fathers gathered at Constantinople), he maintained that neither a woman in child-bed nor a sick man should be obliged to keep the Paschal fast.

The man who refuses to relax his fast out of pride, using adherence to the canons as an excuse, sins; while the one who relaxes his fast out of gluttony, using love for neighbor as an excuse, also sins. Yet the one who keeps the fast out of true love for God and His Church, and the one who relaxes the fast out of true love for the neighbor whom God also loves, may both do well. The difference is in the heart, more than in the act. Let neither judge the other, as one of the Desert Fathers relates:



I myself once harshly judged a monk whom I saw drinking milk during the Great Fast. He did it so routinely that I thought, "Why, he must think nothing of the ascetic life." It was I who had forgotten the rule of the inner life -- that one judges himself and excuses others. I later learned that the monk was ill and had to have milk to ingest his medication. I learned something about hasty judgments. Here we learn that we must never judge another person.


In Christ,
Mike

[Nicolaj]

So you think it is more important to please the world as to please God?

Nicolaj, the sinner

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

As a matter of fact, I remember in years past, down in Nyack, NY the parish there held Thanksgiving the week before if the fast were to begin the Monday before, and they had a molieben too.

I know that people do get dispensation for eating on that special day with their families (Mostly as you said, those whose families that are large, and this is especially hardest for converts).

One year, my mom had a Tofurkey since the Nativity fast had begun (old calendar), and I can honestly say that was awful. I for one, don't like something that is made to be something it is not. Better to have good simple seafood or a vegetable dish...after all, we are giving thanks for our bounty and our wonderful friends and family!

In My Personal Planner/Calendar with lists of civil holidays it says that for next year (2008) and the year after this American Thanksgiving will be on Nov 27 & then Nov 26.

I'm not familiar with the American tradition of when you have the thanksgiving dinner as a family. But unless it's on the Thursday of Thanksgiving itself then those on the Old Calendar face the same question as those on the New; ie what do you do about the meal with the family?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Yet the one who keeps the fast out of true love for God and His Church, and the one who relaxes the fast out of true love for the neighbor whom God also loves, may both do well. The difference is in the heart, more than in the act.

This approach is actually very important. To fast while provoking others who host us & drawing unneeded attention to ourselves ends up negating the purpose of the fast and perhaps making it sinful on top of it all.

Certainly however we should not fear that during times of dispensation the fast entirely disappears. Some approach such meals as if the festive spirit involved is unavoidable while others first look to love of neighbour as what guides them to their door (ie not love of food). Some also without others noticing this restrain themselves at such meals from taking everything offered although often only modesty in helping oneself is possible without drawing undue attention to oneself.

In any case I recall at our small monastery in Quebec we had French-Canadian neighbours who grew to love us very much. Eventually it got to the point where these people took a positive joy in finding out how we ate as monastics and then preparing fasting food for us - of course in a festal way :)- whenever they would invite us over.

But of course this was an exceptional situation and not to be expected.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

So you think it is more important to please the world as to please God?

Nicolaj, the sinner

Yes, but that's the very point.

Asceticism & self-restraint needs to take into account our neighbour who is part of the scenario God puts before us.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rick H.]

Yes, but that's the very point.

Asceticism & self-restraint needs to take into account our neighbour who is part of the scenario God puts before us.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Good point here--'the big picture' . . . lest Orthodoxy and an Orthodox asceticism is presented to our neighbour as being an insensitive legalism, completely self-ish/centered, void of consideration for our neighbor let alone love for our neighbor. Ultimately though this is a matter of the heart wherein the heart of the matter will be determined.

In Christ,
Rick

[Mary]

When they really did love you they know about your faith and your fasting and they really made some thinking about what to offer to eat!


My dear brother Nicolaj,

You have judged the love of my dysfunctional family. They can only give what they have. I have been given more, therefore, the love I show them should be greater than the one that can show me. I cannot expect from them, the same things that I expect of myself. I expect myself to be able to love/forgive/be caring, etc. And, to be honest, I don't do a very good job. From them, I expect nothing. Why should they care? They have no obligation. But I do. I have been loved by God.

Also - there's a great danger in their investing time to know more about my faith - the danger of converting! They know how drastic the changes are, they are wise to stay away and count the cost. When they are ready, they will want to know more about my faith. My hope is, that when they do, they won't stop wanting to know more till they too become orthodox.

There's precious little that we have in common. Family. Food. Weather. Kids in school. That's it. We used to have 'church' in common. And we spent many hours together on Sunday afternoons, talking about the sermon that day and how it's affected us and how we'd like to apply it in our lives, etc. Now, we have absolutely Nothing to talk about. Nothing of substance, that is. So, in a way, we have been reduced to getting to know each other as fellow human beings, because the greatest connection we had - a spiritual one- has been completely cut off. (I'm thinking of my husband's sister-in-law here).

For several months after our conversion, I felt the tension everytime we were together. We couldn't even look at each other when we spoke. But we had a good time together yesterday. Food gave us something useful to do and loosened our tongues so we could think of things to talk about and get to know each other a bit more. I was thrilled to find Fish on the menu! I had given myself a good talking to, and decided the best thing to do was to eat very little, because, in the crowd, I wouldn't be noticed, I could get away with that. That's very hard for me to do, because, I love food. =) And good food, always shuts off my 'Fullness Sensor' and I overeat. But it worked well yesterday.


What balance do you mean? Why is it that you are ashamed for your religion?

I don't think I'm ashamed of my Orthodox faith. At least, not that I have noticed.




What about the heavenly meal, this is for sure the meal you are sacrificing!


What heavenly meal am I sacrificing? I'm still on earth and I need food to keep my body alive. Are you saying the fast is so much more important than a person, that I should turn down an invitation, and stay home to eat my soup? What will my prayer sound like? "Dear God, I sacrificed an invitation to a meal with my brother, so I could fast and pray..."

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for Man and not Man for the Sabbath. Of course, that's not a license for doing whatever you want on the Sabbath. Jesus didn't mean Man is no longer supposed to observe the Sabbath. I think, the same principle applies to the fast as well, or else we'll be as legalistic as the pharisees were. That's the balance I was thinking of. The Fasts are extremely important - for my spiritual health. But if I hold on to it, at the expense of my brother's spiritual health, then I have only wounded both of us, and the fast wont' bring me any healing, in fact, it might do the opposite, and be bad for me!



Don't be upset, just try as hard as you can, and allow God to add what is needed.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj


Don't worry. I don't upset easy. At least, not anymore. =) Happy fasting!

[Nina]

In My Personal Planner/Calendar with lists of civil holidays it says that for next year (2008) and the year after this American Thanksgiving will be on Nov 27 & then Nov 26.

I'm not familiar with the American tradition of when you have the thanksgiving dinner as a family. But unless it's on the Thursday of Thanksgiving itself then those on the Old Calendar face the same question as those on the New; ie what do you do about the meal with the family?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Ah! Just as I wanted to suggest that we (NC) start a petition to reverse to the OC.

I have heard that GO here have a dispensation. I was not born here Father Raphael, but to reply to your question about the meal from what experience I have is that it is either Thursday early lunch, or late lunch, or dinner it always depends. Friday here is a major shopping day and it is called Black Friday (when I heard it first I thought that people were referring to Holy Friday because in my tradition we call Holy Friday also Black Friday).

Last year I managed to escape (at least) meat altogether on Thanksgiving, but this year alas I did not because it was another way of serving dinner, so I was on the spot. At least I got only one kind of meat from two offered, but still... there went my fast :(...

P.S It is already snowing in your area? Here yesterday was such a balmy weather that we had short sleeves during the day (I was reminded of hot Thanksgiving days in Florida). Today Mr. Frosty is visiting the area. :)

[Glenn Turner]

The Fathers says us that the first sin committed was the breaking of the Fast!

They did commit this, just to please the 'others'!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

Who are these "others". My understanding is they ate because they thought they would gain wisdom. I see nothing in here regarding pleasing others.

ggt

[Kypreos]

So let me get it straight: we should fast only when it is convenient for us? when it becomes difficult we should break fast? And it is better to break our fast rather than risk offending the host of a dinner party?

How about we fast according to the guidance of our spiritual father, and the holy canons of our church? I think that is more important than offending someone.

"No wonder, then, that it is so hard to be Christian--it is not hard it is impossible... And that is way we constantly rebel, try to make life easier, try to be half-Christian, try to make the best of both worlds. We must ultimately choose--our felicity lies in one world or the other, not in both." Father Seraphim Rose


P.S. Thanksgiving is not an Orthodox holiday.

[Mary]

So let me get it straight: we should fast only when it is convenient for us? when it becomes difficult we should break fast? And it is better to break our fast rather than risk offending the host of a dinner party?

How about we fast according to the guidance of our spiritual father, and the holy canons of our church? I think that is more important than offending someone.


Those are excellent questions! I have found the Church to be a lot gentler on me than I have been, even on myself. I believe we all strive to the best of our ability. The idea is to not judge others, because we don't know what their lives are truly like, and we do not know what their spiritual fathers have given them blessing for. We only know our own, and we work as hard as we can to stick to the instructions we've received.

Since we are all of varying strengths and weaknesses, each person's striving will be different. For instance, it's extremely easy for me to show up at church for every single service. However, we have some people who only come for Pascha. If they start coming every week, it's a great thing, an incredible accomplishment. But for me to come every week, is nothing.


P.S. Thanksgiving is not an Orthodox holiday.

Neither is it a dishonor to Orthodoxy. I believe being thankful for your blessings is a good thing. The world celebrates all kinds of vile things. Should we not encourage them, when they try to do something good, like setting aside a day to be thankful for what they have and share with their families? Of course, it's not going to be 'perfect' - in that, many will celebrate because they love food, and many hate the family members they gather with and only do it out of obligation, etc, etc, etc. But then, are all of our celebrations perfect and done with a pure heart?

In Christ,
Mary

[Kypreos]

I believe we all strive to the best of our ability. The idea is to not judge others, because we don't know what their lives are truly like, and we do not know what their spiritual fathers have given them blessing for. We only know our own, and we work as hard as we can to stick to the instructions we've received.

I agree 100 percent.



Neither is it a dishonor to Orthodoxy. I believe being thankful for your blessings is a good thing.

When we break our fast to celebrate Thanksgiving that is a dishonor! We should be thankful, yes absolutely, but we celebrate within the context of our faith.

Abstaining from foods is the easiest part of a fast. We should be focused on fasting our passions, that's the real challenge. But what does that say about our dedication when we cannot even do the simplest and easiest things, like have a vegan dinner?

I agree with Nicolaj, we would never expect a Muslim or a Jew, or a Budhist, or even someone on the Atkins diet to break fast. But it is acceptable as Orthodox Christians? We cannot tell someone, "Is it alright if I bring a vegan dish to the party? Im on a special diet?" Is that insulting? If they do get insulted over that, do we really want to be having dinner with them anyway?

[Mary]

If they do get insulted over that, do we really want to be having dinner with them anyway?

Because of my infinite immaturity, I have been easily offended about far less insignificant things. However, I have one friend, who never abandoned me. If I have the teeniest shred of gratitude in me for the kindness I myself have received, when I've behaved worse than a beast, how can I not extend the same kindness to others?

[Father David Moser]

So you think it is more important to please the world as to please God?

I don't recall anyone saying this. Perhaps it would be best if you did not try to put words into the mouths of others.

Nikolaj, since you are not from the US and therefore do not really understand this national holiday and its significance and importance in our national culture and life, I would tend to ignore your ignorance here and simply note with approval the fervor of your faith. American thanksgiving is a holiday of such great import in our culture and it has always been a quasi-religious holiday and so many Orthodox Churches have made the celebration of this holiday part of their typicon - I know in my parish we always have services on this day (molieben and akathist of thanksgiving). One of the "hallmarks" of thanksgiving is the family meal (I just drove 5 hours each way to have dinner with my son and daughter in law - my daughter her husband will be driving a similar amount to be with her in-laws. Thanksgiving is one of the heaviest travel seasons of the year overall). Thus to just refuse to participate in the feast with family, especially for those of us who are converts, is almost invariably interpreted by our beloved family as a message that we do not love them. This is a reaction on an emotional level not rational and thus no amount of explanation or logic can suffice. Is it better then to love your neighbor or to keep the law?

I recall once that I had to make a trip to visit my parents during Great Lent. My family is not Orthodox and has a "phobia" about legalism and so fasting is totally alien to them (even though they are very pious in their own way). My Mother, however, knowing that it was Great Lent and that I wasn't eating meat, struggled mightily to cook for me foods that were meatless. She is a wonderful cook and set a bountiful table of dishes with no meat out of love for me. However - all the dishes were brimming with cheese, and milk and eggs and fish. I didn't have the heart to tell her that this was not "fasting" food. Out of love, she offered me the best she had - if I had sanctimoniously refused to eat what she provided, I would have "kept the law" and demonstrated to her what "real Orthodoxy" is all about - but she would certainly have seen that I had no love in my heart for her and that my religion was nothing but a set of rules with no regard for the love of God and the love of neighbor. She understands much better now - but only because through the years she has seen the love of God for her through me, not the dry, dead adherence to the rules.

Fr David Moser

[Nicolaj]

Okay, as I see from the replies, it is al right not to fast when you are invited by folks who say they love you, but don't know anything about your religion and the fasting habits you may have. (what do they know about you at all??)

You do not inform them about this, because you are afraid to get them being upset, about you and your religious habits!

But what is, when you just got informed that you are ill, diabetes or allergic on some kinds of meat... well I guess you did tell them that you would like to come but you are not allowed to eat this and this and so on!!!!

So the point is, that we should talk about what is going on in our lives. As I did my first great Lent according to the monastic chart, the people I invited to come and visit us, they were surprised by my cooking (yes, I do the cooking in the Fast!), but after all the taste was fine and they wanted to have my receipts.

And at the canteen on the job or at the university I tell them early enough when I have my fasting days and they are glad to provide me with food that is allowed to eat.

As you see, it is all a matter of attitude!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj, the sinner

[Father David Moser]

In My Personal Planner/Calendar with lists of civil holidays it says that for next year (2008) and the year after this American Thanksgiving will be on Nov 27 & then Nov 26.

Thanksgiving in the US is always the 4th Thursday of November - thus the actual date moves around a bit (unlike Thanksgiving in Canada). What can I say; we in the US were always a bit more rebellious and liked to do things the hard way. Usually in the US Thanksgiving is outside the Nativity fast - but about every 7-10 years Thanksgiving comes real late (when Nov 1 is on Friday, thus making the 4th Thursday Nov 28/15 - the first day of the fast).

Fr David Moser

[Father David Moser]

P.S. Thanksgiving is not an Orthodox holiday.

I would beg to differ! Thanksgiving is indeed an Orthodox holiday. How is it that giving thanks to God for the blessings He has bestowed upon us in the past year is not Orthodox? Just because this holiday is not celebrated in in this way in all Orthodox nations or cultures does not make it "not an Orthodox holiday".
1 Thess 5:16-18

Fr David Moser

[Father David Moser]

So the point is, that we should talk about what is going on in our lives. As I did my first great Lent according to the monastic chart, the people I invited to come and visit us, they were surprised by my cooking (yes, I do the cooking in the Fast!), but after all the taste was fine and they wanted to have my receipts.

Disclaimer: The following is offered as an example - it is not offered as a criticism of Nikolaj's practice but simply uses Nikolaj's practice as a vehicle for a parable

Nikolaj! How is it that you disregard the canons to such an extent that you actually boast how you eat cooked food during the fast. Are you not aware that it is the strict monastic practice to eat only uncooked or raw foods on strict fast days? Where is your respect for tradition. How dare you try to teach others about fasting when you yourself blatantly disregard the fast by cooking your food and then boast to us of this flagrant liberty that you take in circumventing the fast.

The above is simply an example of how easy it is to fall into criticizing and judging others

I ask forgiveness is my use of Nikolaj's words created an unnecessary offense. I need to say that I see clearly that Nikolaj is indeed a man of great zeal (greater than my own) and desire to serve God without compromise. Pray for me a sinner.

Fr David Moser

[Nicolaj]

Well I actually don't know much about Thanksgiving, but I was told that this is celebrated to commemorate the landing of some protestants in America.

But I was also told that this is also a traditional part of Thanksgiving:


Often guests bring food items or help with cooking in the kitchen as part of a communal meal.

So what is the problem about fasting on Thanksgiving?

Did the martyrs eat the flesh of the pagans not to upset them? Yes some did, many did not and those who did where forgiven and after some repenting exercises allowed to return to church.

I understand it, that it is difficult to give witness about your faith and the way you are living this and yes often we fail. But we shouldn't give up that easy! First really try, but saying on the forehand this is not going to go, that is no trying!

In Christ, Nicolaj, the sinner

[Father David Moser]

Well I actually don't know much about Thanksgiving, but I was told that this is celebrated to commemorate the landing of some protestants in America.

Thanksgiving has really little to do with commemorating the landing of some protestants in America. It had its beginnings in the fact that "some protestants" that is the "pilgrims" who were very God-fearing and pious people had come to the new world to establish a settlement. After a nearly devastating year and a bountiful harvest they established a feast to give thanks to God for having preserved them and having given them food (the harvest), shelter (the new settlement) and friends (the natives with whom they became friendly) and many other blessings thus allowing them to survive the first year of their settlement in the new world. The aspect of Thanksgiving that continues today as a national holiday is a celebration of our thankfulness to God for His great providence and love for us (the bit about "some protestants landing in America" is only an historical sidelight to the origin of the feast - not the essence of it) Thanksgiving is all about giving thanks to God (the closest we in the US have to an actual national recognition of God - which in these days is one more thing to give thanks for.)

Fr David Moser

[Nicolaj]

Yes, you are right Father! It is somehow like Erntedank here, which is also celebrated to thank the Lord of the Harvest for all being received in the last year and ask his blessings for the one year to come.

I have been told that it is somehow forbidden to have holidays like Christmas or Easter to be connected to their actual beginning, in Christ, just not to harm people from other religions!??

In Christ, Nicolaj who is cooking veggies

[Tim Grass]

Nicolaj... You're a very judgmental person........ quick to judge people about things you don't understand.

Learn how not to judge..... after that you can talk to people about how they should fast.

--tim

[Mary]

I found this article today, in The Orthodox Herald, about my favorite American President, who made Thanksgiving a national holiday:


On October 3, 1863, Abraham Lincoln issued a Thanksgiving Proclamation. In part it reads:

"No human counsel hath devised, nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with an anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy.

It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be reverently, solemnly, and gratefully acknowledged, as with one heart and voice, by the whole American people. I do, therefore, invite my fellow-citizens of every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea, and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a day of Thanksgiving and prayer to our beneficient Father who dwelleth in the heavens. And I recommend to them that, while offering up the ascriptions justly due Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners, or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty hand to heal the wounds of the nation, and to restore it, as soon as may be consistent with divine purposes, to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquility, and union."

[Antonios]

This is I found on Orthodoxytoday.org (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/KeatingThanksgiving.php):




The first Thanksgiving dates back to the Pilgrims. These hearty folks sought religious freedom, boarded the little Mayflower, crossed the Atlantic, were blown off course and ultimately all came ashore in November 1620 in what is now Plymouth, Mass. Before disembarking, though, they drew up "The Mayflower Compact," which noted that the purpose of their voyage was "for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith."
They suffered dearly, with about half the colony perishing during that first winter. In the autumn of 1621, the Pilgrims gave thanks for their first harvest and for the local Indians, including Squanto, who helped them survive. Specifically, they were giving thanks to God, and this gave birth to our Thanksgiving tradition.
Fast-forward 242 years, and we discover that President Abraham Lincoln's proclamation establishing Thanksgiving as a national holiday was deeply religious. He noted that, even as the Civil War raged, the nation had much for which to be thankful.
Lincoln declared: "No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy."
He called for Americans "to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a day of thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens." (The date was changed decades later to the fourth Thursday.)
And given that it was a time of war, Lincoln recommended that the people "commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners, or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it."
In Christ,
Antonios

[Kypreos]

I would beg to differ! Thanksgiving is indeed an Orthodox holiday. How is it that giving thanks to God for the blessings He has bestowed upon us in the past year is not Orthodox? Just because this holiday is not celebrated in in this way in all Orthodox nations or cultures does not make it "not an Orthodox holiday".
1 Thess 5:16-18
Fr David Moser

"Thanksgiving Day was first officially proclaimed by the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1637 to commemorate the massacre of 700 men, women and children who were celebrating their annual green corn dance. They were attacked by mercenaries and Dutch and English. The Indians were ordered from the building and as they came forth they were shot down. The rest were burned alive in the building...The next 100 Thanksgivings commemorated the killing of the Indians at what is now Groton, Ct. [home of a nuclear submarine base] rather than a celebration with them. The image of Indians and Pilgrims sitting around a large table to celebrate Thanksgiving Day is "fictitious" although Indians did share food with the first settlers.The people n the mayflower were the one who made thanksgiving." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving

Of course giving thanks is Orthodox. As Orthodox Christians we continually give thanks in the prayers of our church and in our private prayers. We also celebrate numerous feasts throughout the year. Our Protestant brothers and sisters living in the States lack this fullness of faith. Therefore, one day of thanks to them is monumental.

Therefore, if we choose to come together with family and friends to celebrate what has become a great and joyous holiday, let us do so within the context of our religion. I do not believe that friends and family will ever want someone to compromise their faith.

[Father David Moser]

"Thanksgiving Day ...The people n the mayflower were the one who made thanksgiving." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving


Ah yes, that ultimately reliable and unbiased source of factual information - wikipedia. Please try and cite some kind of reliable historical source. Of course there were conflicts between the settlers and the natives, of course atrocities were committed, no doubt on both sides, and no the pilgrims and indians didn't sit down at a big table all together; but it wasn't quite the way that wikipedia spun it either.

Fr David Moser

[Peter S.]

This is I found on Orthodoxytoday.org (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/KeatingThanksgiving.php):

In Christ,
Antonios

It is good to know that the Squanto indians helped the settlers to survive. An example of love and God's allseeing mercy in history. Something to give thanks for.
I had not heard of the Squanto indians before...

Peter

[Nina]

When our dear friends who had invited us over for Thanksgiving, started packing food for us to take with, I started very nicely imploring them to keep the food because we would not be able to eat it. They completely disregarded that and continued to make their own case and putting even more food (meat etc.) in several containers like we were going to the dessert for a year, or so. Therefore I told them again and again not to because I did not want to see the food wasted. They asked me why I do not like the luxury of not having to cook for some days. I told them because I am cooking fasting food. They know very well that I am Orthodox (they are Catholic) because we have been talking about it when they are at my apartment and have seen icons, but probably they did not know that we are fasting. But at the moment I told them I am cooking fasting food, the host started making fun of the fast and started blaspheming Christ and Virgin Mary. I froze. I realized that sometime it is better to close my mouth and not tell, not because I am embarrassed for my beliefs, but for other people's sake.

[Father David Moser]

When our dear friends who had invited us over for Thanksgiving, started packing food for us to take with,

That's why God made freezers...

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

That's why God made freezers...
Fr David Moser

First, I do not like to freeze cooked food for more than a month because I like fresh food. Second, I do not have a large freezer. Third, I will not be near my freezer for Christmas. Fourth, why should all that food sit in my freezer when someone else can consume it? It is like what St. Chrysostom said: "The coat that sits in your closet belongs to the poor."

I thought to find someone to give the food to, but after I had so much difficulty distributing the koliva for my mom's soul one time (not-Sunday) I changed my mind, since many people here are skeptical when a stranger offers them food - and with a good reason.

[Nicolaj]

Nicolaj... You're a very judgemental person........ quick to judge people about things you don't understand.

Learn how not to judge..... after that you can talk to people about how they should fast.

--tim

Dear Brethren!

I am not judging anybody! Read my posts carefully, and you see that I write with great concerns about my brethren here at Monachos. So this was not judging at all. This words are shared to edification among brethren!

The Church is not only a building in the city where we go to attend the services, it is also the living Body of Christ to whom we all belong. And all concern for one another!

And as being a part of this body it is my duty to help clarify where I think a word is needed and I can provide one word or two. I don't think being wise or multiple intelligent. I am a sinner!


And please tell me, Tim, how it is possible for you not to judge! I have read Fathers who have lived a life of holiness and still were seduced with the sin of judging. But as you have find the way not to judge, you will tell me to become more like you, please!?


about things you don't understand.

You are so right dear Tim, I don't understand anything.. Please tell me more about the right fasting!

I made my experiences about fasting myself according to the teachings of the church and with the help of my Father, who is very strict to me about how to keep the fast. He made me clear that it is very very important in my battle against the demons who come to tempt me to have this mighty weapon of the fast.

I could tell you more about this, but as I read from your post you already might know enough about these things!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj, the first among sinners!

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I sense that there is some misunderstanding about fasting within the Church as if it was a law against eating unclean food.

For us fasting, even though certain rich foods can contribute to the increase in passions, is not refraining from food unclean in itself. For all things are created clean as Scripture informs us (see Acts). What is important here is that we understand that fasting is given us so that we might learn self-restraint and an ascetic way of life but of a particular kind.

This self-restraint is meant to be of a particular nature encouraged by fasting which for us is according to the liturgical calendar with its continually changing rhythms and patterns. In essence this rhythmic pattern of fasting as a reflection of the liturgical cycle of the year teaches us to place discernment above all else. In other words the connection between fasting & the liturgical calendar shows us that fasting is always meant to be applied to the circumstances at hand rather than seen as a discipline for itself.

This indeed is its essential lesson; not only self-restraint, but rather self-restraint of a particular kind relating this always to the situation at hand so that it becomes a true work of love and not something done only for itself. Indeed each liturgical day is certainly perfect in itself as an expression of the Kingdom. But yet each is different showing us the great variations within the Kingdom and which we are called to open ourselves up to to day by day and moment by moment. And this is why we do & must fast differently.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rick H.]

Dear Brethren!

I am not judging anybody! Read my posts carefully, and you see that I write with great concerns about my brethren here at Monachos. So this was not judging at all. This words are shared to edification among brethren!






Dear Nicolaj,



I see this sincerity in your writing, and I appreciate your zeal for the Church.


As far as the subject of judgmentalism goes, I think this is a big part of this thread as there seems to be an effort to find a consensus on this matter of who eats and who does not eat on Thanksgiving. Ultimately though, I really think it is a matter of the heart for the individual in his unique relationship with Christ. There is no one right answer here, as Father Raphael says above, we have to look at the situation at hand (viz. ourselves and others). It is a futile exercise to search for the one right answer: to eat or not to eat? So, I think my last post in this thread will be made in the form of a poem that I wrote once during a time when I was very angry and judgmental (even though I thought I was seeing things correctly). There is an appeal to the mind here; but, there is also a great appeal to the heart here as well--especially for the one who finds himself in the seat of the belligerent and confused:





The Plague in The Polis:
"On the Location and Instrumentality of Anti-Philosophy"



Gluttonous gathers and guardians in the republic,

the ultimate suspension of truth.




Judgmentalism reviling and resisting judgement,

the non-systematic mocker abounds.




Chaos diligently demanding conformity,

Socratic students unaware.




Obtuse implements suspended by arrogant stupor,

the plague in the polis beware!





In Christ,


Rick

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

There is no one right answer here, as Father Raphael says above, we have to look at the situation at hand (viz. ourselves and others).

As this is written in relation what I wrote I want to say that I mean precisely that there is a 'right answer' as to how to fast but according to the situation at hand.

What I mean is not something at all spontaneous or 'free' in this regard. Rather my point is that self-restraint for us as Orthodox Christians is always measured by dying to oneself within the context of each day as given to us by God Himself.

This becomes for us not an opportunity for free expression but rather of faithfulness to what God sets before us.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Rick H.]

. . . I want to say that I mean precisely that there is a 'right answer' as to how to fast but according to the situation at hand.




Dear Father Raphael,

I think you made your point well the first time about 'how' to fast. But, the end result is the same . . . there is no one rule or 'right answer' regarding whether we should all eat or whether we should all not eat.

As I read your writing about freedom and faithfulness, I am not sure that I see an antithesis here as it relates to "the real life in Christ," as St. Theophan has said in The Path. Free expression independent of death to self is certainly not the Christian Way; however, without the participation of our free will there is no aid of transforming Grace.

This will teach me to not say this will be my last post anymore. :)

In Christ,
Rick

[Nina]

There are teachings from the Fathers that support both views expressed in this thread, that's why we always rely to the guidance and blessing of our own spiritual father for our own personal fasting.

[Father David Moser]

'how'[/i] to fast. But, the end result is the same . . . there is no one rule or 'right answer' regarding whether we should all eat or whether we should all not eat.


To try and summarize a bit: whether or not we fast is an absolute - we do. There is a universal "baseline" for how we fast (that being the strict fasting rule), however that universal baseline must be applied to the situation of each person resulting in variations in how we fast. This, I think is what both Fr Raphael and Rick are saying. What I think needs to be emphasized (and what Fr Raphael was, imo, trying get across) is that we don't make these decisions about applying the fast ourselves individually, but that this application of the fast is given to us by our proper Church Authority, whether that be a national synod or the diocesan bishop or our local priest acting in obedience to his diocesan bishop. The important element here is obedience - we do not modify the fast according to our own self will or our own best rationalization, rather we act in obedience to those whom God has placed in authority over us in the Church.

I think that there are a multitude of spiritual reasons why we fast from this or that food and so on, but in the end those reasons are simply used by the Church (and the Church authorities) to give a fasting rule that is both doable and spiritually beneficial to each person. But we do not give ourselves a fasting rule - it is given to us from our spiritual father (or similar Church authority). Obedience, according to the Fathers, is the most effective means of spiritually beneficial self denial and of acquiring humility. Fasting should always be - at least partially - an exercise in obedience as well as an exercise in self denial and warfare on the passions.

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

To try and summarize a bit: whether or not we fast is an absolute - we do. There is a universal "baseline" for how we fast (that being the strict fasting rule), however that universal baseline must be applied to the situation of each person resulting in variations in how we fast.

[ . . .] But we do not give ourselves a fasting rule - it is given to us from our spiritual father (or similar Church authority). Obedience, according to the Fathers, is the most effective means of spiritually beneficial self denial and of acquiring humility. Fasting should always be - at least partially - an exercise in obedience as well as an exercise in self denial and warfare on the passions.

Fr David Moser


Dear Father David,

Thanks for the five star summary and the big picture. Sometimes it does help to fly a little higher--yes, the "baseline," the bottom line.

In Christ,
Rick

[Andreas Moran]

our dear friends . . . started making fun of the fast and started blaspheming Christ and Virgin Mary.

Hmmm - some friends! Some Catholics! I don't think I'd keep them on my Christmas card list.

[Nina]

Hmmm - some friends! Some Catholics! I don't think I'd keep them on my Christmas card list.

I will and I will keep them on the Christmas gift list too, because the hostess and the host are some of the sweetest people ever. You see, when things are said for the glory of God, what happens is that the devil enters some people and makes a mess. No person is immune to that, unless deified. Therefore it is not the fault of the host, that he started making fun of fasting etc. It is also my fault because I should have had the discernment to know this beforehand and keep silent.

[Nicolaj]

Therefore it is not the fault of the host, that he started making fun of fasting etc. It is also my fault because I should have had the discernment to know this beforehand and keep silent.

He started to make fun out of it because he did not really know what to make out of it. He was abashed, because he, as many other RC members, do not know anything about the practice of fasting at all. So far has fasting come in the RC.

I thank Father David and Father Raphael for their posts.

My Father told me to keep the fast. And to be obedient, so I am.

Wednesday we start.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Nina]

My Father told me to keep the fast. And to be obedient, so I am.

Wednesday we start.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

Good for you dear Nicolaj! Although I can not imitate your zeal and I am not as strong (and broke my fast :( although I thought that I could be stronger), I still do admire very much your zeal, passion and diligence for God because as Blessed Theophylact has said in his Explanation of the Gospel of St. Luke, p. 94

…if you have diligence and zeal, you will be given greater grace from God. But he who has neither diligence nor zeal, by his negligence will extinguish and lose even that grace which he seems to have from God.