Sorrow for sin

[Troy Duker]

Many times I feel no sorrow for my sin. I feel almost proud and that I am throwing my sins in his face as though I am all-powerful. I pray to the Theotokos to feel sorrow for my misdoings but I come away not the least repentant. I've also asked God for tears of repentance but nothing, I want to feel sorry. I do ask God pardon for my sins because I fear hell. Am I under the power of the evil one?

[Nina]

An Elder whenever he saw someone who sinned started to weep and used to say: "Today he, tomorrow I!"

We can not judge you. But since your conscience is telling you that there is something wrong, trust it - as St. Tikhon of Zadonks said.

[Celinda Grace]

I've been through this at times also. I agree with Nina but also keep asking until God answers.

[Andreas Moran]

It's the oldest trick in the evil one's book to make us feel bold in our sins and to think they are nothing, and then to make us feel sorry afterwards. When some sin is habitual, we can't even always feel sorry afterwards. Even Adam didn't feel repentant after he ate the forbidden fruit - he shuffled the blame onto God! We cannot demand anything of God. We cannot ask for tears - only for mercy. Try this prayer: 'Lord, thou seest my weakness. Make up for what I cannot do myself'. Don't expect a result in your time - it will come in God's time.

[Mary]

I have a hard heart. Sometimes it feels more like I've lost hope than lack of feeling sorry for my sins. But, I've learned that my feelings are very unreliable. So I try to ignore them, not that it always works, but hopefully, with practice...

I find prayers of repentance are able to help me focus. Also, even if I can't feel it yet, at least I know, that's where I'd like to be - at the place where those words of repentance will be pouring out of me on their own. I recently found this Canon of Repentance, which I pray as often as I need to:

(It's long, so print it out and read it slowly.)




CANON OF REPENTANCE
To our Lord Jesus Christ
Song 1. Tone 6.

Eirmos: When Israel walked on foot in the sea as on dry land, on seeing their pursuer Pharaoh drowned, they cried: Let us sing to God a song of victory.


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.

Troparia:
Now I, a burdened sinner, approach Thee, my Lord and God. But I dare not raise my eyes to Heaven. I only pray, saying: Give me, O Lord, the sense to weep bitterly over my deeds.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
O woe is me, a sinner! Wretched am I above all men. There is no penitence in me. Give me, O Lord, tears to weep bitterly over my deeds.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:
Foolish, wretched man, you are wasting your time in idleness! Think of your life and turn to the Lord God, and weep bitterly over your deeds.

Now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Theotokion: Most pure Mother of God, look upon me, a sinner, and deliver me from the snares of the devil, and guide me to the way of repentance, that I may weep bitterly over my deeds.

Song 3.
Eirmos: There is none holy as Thou, O Lord my God, Who hast exalted the power of Thy faithful, O Good One, and strengthened us on the rock of Thy confession.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Troparia:
When the thrones are set at the dread judgment, then the deeds of all men will be exposed. Then alas for the sinners sent to torment! And knowing that, my soul, repent of your evil deeds.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
The righteous will rejoice, but the sinners will weep. Then no one will be able to help us, but our deeds will condemn us. Therefore, before the end dawns, repent of your evil deeds.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:
Woe is me, a great sinner, who have defiled myself by my deeds and thoughts. Not a tear-drop do I have, because of my hard-heartedness. Now raise yourself from the earth, my soul, and repent of your evil deeds.

Now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Theotokion: Lo, thy Son calls, O Lady, and teaches us what is good. But, sinful as I am, I always flee from the good. But do thou, O merciful one, have mercy on me, that I may repent of my evil deeds.

Lord, have mercy. (Thrice).
Sedalion, tone 6: I think of the awful day and weep over my evil deeds. How shall I answer the Immortal King? How shall I, a prodigal, dare to look at the Judge? O gracious Father, Only-Begotten Son, and Holy Spirit, have mercy on me.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Theotokion: Bound now with many chains of sins, and inhibited by cruel passions, I have recourse to thee, my salvation, and cry: Help me, O Virgin, Mother of God.

Song 4.
Eirmos: Christ is my power, my God and my Lord, the holy Church divinely sings, crying with a pure mind, keeping festival in the Lord.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Troparia:
Broad is the way here and conducive to indulging in pleasures, but how bitter it will be on the last day when the soul is separated from the body! Beware of pleasures, man, for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Why do you wrong the poor? Why do you withhold the wage of the hired servant? Why do you not love your brother? Why do you run after pride and lust? And so, stop these things, my soul, and repent for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:
O thoughtless man! How long will you busy yourself like a bee, accumulating your fortune? For it will perish like dust and ashes soon. But seek rather the Kingdom of God.

Now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Theotokion: O Lady, Mother of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Strengthen me in the virtues and keep me safe, lest sudden death take me by surprise. And bring me, O Virgin, to the Kingdom of God.

Song 5.
Eirmos: Illumine with Thy divine light, I pray, O Good One, the souls of those who with love rise early to pray to Thee, that they may know Thee, O Word of God, as the true God, Who recalls us from the darkness of sin.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Troparia:
Remember, wretched man, how you are enslaved to lies, calumnies, theft, infirmities, wild beasts and fears, on account of your sins. O my sinful soul, is that what you have desired?

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
My members tremble, for with all of them I have sinned: with my eyes in looking, with my ears in hearing, with my tongue in speaking evil, and by surrendering the whole of myself to hell. O my sinful soul, is that what you have desired?

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:
Thou didst receive the prodigal and the robber who repented, O Saviour, and I alone have succumbed to sinful sloth and have become enslaved to evil deeds. O my sinful soul, is this what you have desired?

Now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Theotokion: Wonderful and speedy helper of all men, help me. Mother of God, unworthy as I am, for my sinful soul desires that.

Song 6.
Eirmos: Beholding the sea of life surging the flood of temptations, I run to calm haven, and cry to Thee: Raise up my life from corruption, O Most Merciful One.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Troparia:
I have lived my life wantonly on earth and have delivered my soul to darkness. But now I implore Thee, O merciful Lord, free me from this work of the enemy and give me the knowledge to do Thy will.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Who does such things as I do? For just like a swine lying in the mud, so I serve sin. But do Thou, O Lord, pull me out of this vileness and give me the heart to do Thy commandments.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:
Rise, wretched man, to God and, remembering your sins, fall down before your Creator, weeping and groaning, for He is merciful and will grant you to know His will.

Now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Virgin Mother of God, protect me from evil visible and invisible, O immaculate one, and accept my prayers and convey them to thy Son, that He may grant me the sense to do His will.

Lord, have mercy. (Thrice).
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Kontakion: O my soul, why do you become rich in sins? Why do you do the will of the devil? On what do you set your hope? Stop these things and turn to God with tears, and cry: O Merciful Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.
Oekos: Think, my soul, of the bitter hour of death and the awful judgment of your God and Creator. For terrible Angels will seize you, my soul, and will lead you into the eternal fire. And so, before your death, repent and cry: O Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Song 7.
Eirmos: An Angel made the furnace throw dew on the holy Children. But the command of God consumed the Chaldeans and prevailed upon the tyrant to cry: Blessed art Thou, O God of our fathers.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Troparia:
Do not hope, my soul, for corruptible wealth, and for what is unjustly collected. For you do not know to whom you will leave it all. But cry: O Christ our God, have mercy on me, who am unworthy.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Do not trust, my soul, in your physical health, and in your quickly-passing beauty. For you see that the strong and the young die. But say: O Christ our God, have mercy on me, who am unworthy.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:
Remember, my soul, eternal life and the Heavenly Kingdom prepared for the saints, and the outer darkness and the wrath of God for the evil, and cry: O Christ our God, have mercy on me, who am unworthy.

Now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Theotokion: Fall down, my soul, before the Mother of God, and pray to her; for she is quick to help those who repent. She prays to Christ, her Son and our God, and has mercy on me who am unworthy.

Song 8.
Eirmos: Thou didst make flame sprinkle the Saints with dew, and didst burn the sacrifice of a righteous man with water. For Thou alone, O Christ, dost do all as Thou willest. Thee we exalt throughout all ages.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Troparia:
How can I not weep when I think of death? For I have seen my brother lying in his coffin, inglorious and hideous. What, then, do I expect? And what do I hope for? Only grant me, O Lord, repentance before my end. (2)

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:
I believe that Thou wilt come to judge the living and the dead, and all will stand in order, old and young, lords and princes, priests and virgins. Where shall I find myself? Therefore I cry: grant me, O Lord, repentance before my end.

Now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Theotokion: Most pure Mother of God, accept my unworthy prayer and preserve me from sudden death; and grant me repentance before my end.

Song 9.
Eirmos: It is impossible for men to see God, upon Whom the orders of Angels dare not gaze. But through thee, O all-pure one, did the Word incarnate appear to men, and with the Heavenly Hosts we magnify Him, and thee we call blessed.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Troparia:
I now have recourse to you, holy Angels, Archangels, and all the Heavenly Hosts who stand at the throne of God: pray to your Creator that He may save my soul from eternal torment.

Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Now I turn to you with tears, holy patriarchs, kings and prophets, apostles and holy prelates, and all Christ's elect: help me at the judgment, that He may save my soul from the power of the enemy.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:
Now I lift my hands to you, holy martyrs, hermits, virgins, righteous and all the saints, who pray to the Lord for the whole world, that He may have mercy on me at the hour of my death.

Now and ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Theotokion: O Mother of God, help me who have strong hope in thee; implore thy Son that He may place me on His right hand, unworthy as I am, when He sits to judge the living and the dead. Amen.

Prayer after the Canon
Lord Christ our God, Who hast healed my passions through Thy Passion, and hast cured my wounds through Thy wounds, grant me who have sinned greatly against Thee tears of compunction. Transform my body with the fragrance of Thy life-giving Body, and sweeten my soul with Thy Holy Blood from the bitterness with which the foe has fed me. Lift up my downward looking mind to Thee, and take it out of the pit of perdition, for I have no repentance, I have no compunction, I have no consoling tears, which uplift children to their heritage. My mind has been darkened through earthly passions, I cannot look up to Thee in pain. I cannot warm myself with tears of love for Thee. But, O Lord Jesus Christ, Treasury of good gifts, give me thorough repentance and a diligent heart to seek Thee; grant me Thy grace, and renew in me the lineaments of Thy image. I have forsaken Thee - do not forsake me! Come out to seek me; lead me up to Thy pasturage and number me among the lambs of Thy chosen flock. Nourish me with them on the grass of Thy Holy Mysteries, by the prayers of Thy Most Pure Mother and all Thy saints. Amen.

[Nina]

I have a hard heart. Sometimes it feels more like I've lost hope than lack of feeling sorry for my sins. But, I've learned that my feelings are very unreliable. So I try to ignore them, not that it always works, but hopefully, with practice...


(We all have a hard heart.) I like your post and you are right. Elder Porphyrios says exactly what you say.

Also I have read that when we are tempted with blasphemy it is because we have anger and do not love our enemies, or something like this. I will try to locate the saying and post it maybe.

[Elizabeth Riggs]

[I'm having a hard time typing as my cat has decided my laptop is THE place for his head, and I don't want to disturb him. Forgive me my typos!]

At the time of confession, whether I "feel" repentant or shed tears or not, my confessor, who knows my heart, assures me that the admission of sin, and the resolve to not repeat them or do any others is "enough."

The Evil One is who tries to deceive you about "feelings." "Feelings" are part of the passions - which we are trying to avoid. Ignore your "feelings" or lack thereof. Focus on giving Glory to God for All Things (http://www.angelfire.com/ga/riggs/Akathist-GloryToGod.html)!

It has been my experience that the more I give Glory to God, the more I want to be closer to Him and to do His Will. This may or may not be your experience, but if you haven't tried it - daily, for several months - you might try it and see if that is helpful to you.

As is usual, I add the reminder that you should not attempt a new or different prayer discipline without your confessor's advice and blessing on the matter.

With Love in Christ,
Dr. Elizabeth, the sinner
and Perennial Student

[Mary]

(We all have a hard heart.) I like your post and you are right. Elder Porphyrios says exactly what you say.

Aha, so some of the things I read, do stick in my slippery mind! I have read 'Wounded by Love' by Elder Porphyrios. Now that you have reminded me of it, I'd like to read it again. But I was really getting caught up with St Theophan...

[Nina]

Aha, so some of the things I read, do stick in my slippery mind! I have read 'Wounded by Love' by Elder Porphyrios. Now that you have reminded me of it, I'd like to read it again. But I was really getting caught up with St Theophan...

:) At least I remember where you read it! :) 'Cause I forget where I read it.

[Mary]

:) At least I remember where you read it! :) 'Cause I forget where I read it.

LOL =) That's very good! You can index my brain and I'll index yours. Between the two of us, we should be able to quote and give the reference! Just wait some 20yrs so I can catch up on all the reading! =)

[Nina]

You can index my brain and I'll index yours.

Giggles... So you have hacked into my brain also? I was flattering myself and thinking only I was the one who could do that.


Between the two of us, we should be able to quote and give the reference! Just wait some 20yrs so I can catch up on all the reading! =)

Oh trust me! You know more than you can imagine!

P.S Sorry Troy! It must be Thanksgiving cheer.

[Grace McCann]

I have a hard heart. Sometimes it feels more like I've lost hope than lack of feeling sorry for my sins. But, I've learned that my feelings are very unreliable. So I try to ignore them, not that it always works, but hopefully, with practice...

I find prayers of repentance are able to help me focus. Also, even if I can't feel it yet, at least I know, that's where I'd like to be - at the place where those words of repentance will be pouring out of me on their own. I recently found this Canon of Repentance, which I pray as often as I need to:

(It's long, so print it out and read it slowly.)

It was comforting to find a prayer (Canon of Repentance) that I have been seeking. Thank you for sharing.

From the heart, Grace

[Mary]

It was comforting to find a prayer (Canon of Repentance) that I have been seeking. Thank you for sharing.

From the heart, Grace

Dear Grace,

I'm glad you like that prayer. I love prayers of repentance. They seem to touch parts of my heart that nothing else seems to reach - especially those dead parts. Perhaps that's why I like Great Lent so much. I couldn't get enough of the Canon of St Andrew of Crete this last time, so I said it every day at home after the week of praying it at church. And then, I found a little booklet with prayers for peparing for communion! I'll see if they're available online. If not, I'll type it up. Oh, they are soooooo good! Like medicine that touches the very spot that needs to be touched, ripping through the deadness and at the same time, soothing the pain. Only God could come up with such perfect medicine!

In Christ,
Mary.

[Mary]

By St Basil the Great.






A Lament for Sin



Weep over your sin: it is a spiritual ailment; it is death to your immortal soul; it deserves ceaseless, unending weeping and crying; let all tears flow for it, and sighing come forth without ceasing from the depths of your heart. St. Basil the Great.

In profound humility I weep for all my sins, voluntary and involuntary, conscious and unconscious, covert and overt, great and little, committed by word and deed, in thought and intention, day and night, at every hour and minute of my life.

I weep over my pride and my ambition, my self love and my boastfulness; I weep over my fits of anger, irritation, excessive shouting, swearing, quarreling and cursing;

I weep for having criticized, censured, gossiped, slandered, and defamed, for my wrath, enmity, hatred, envy, jealousy, vengeance and rancor;

I weep over my indulgences in lust, impure thoughts and evil inclinations; covetousness, gluttony, drunkenness, and sloth;

I weep for having talked idly, used foul language, blasphemed, derided, joked, ridiculed, mocked, enjoyed empty gaiety, singing, dancing and every pleasure to excess;

I weep over my self indulgence, cupidity, love of money and miserliness, unmercifulness and cruelty;

I weep over my laziness, indolence, negligence, love of comfort, weakness, idleness, absent-mindedness, irresponsibility, inattention, love of sleep, for hours spent in idle pursuits, and for my lack of concentration in prayer and in Church, for not observing fasts and not doing charitable works.

I weep over my lack of faith, my doubting, my perplexity, my coldness, my indifference, my weakness and unfeelingness in what concerns the Holy Orthodox Faith, and over all my foul, cunning and reviling thoughts;

I weep over my exaggerated sorrow and grief, depression and despair, and over sins committed willingly.

I weep, but what tears can I find for a worthy and fitting way to weep for all the actions of my ill fated life; for my immeasurable and profound worthlessness? How can I reveal and expose in all its nakedness each one of my sins, great and small, voluntary and involuntary, conscious and unconscious, overt and covert, every hour and minute of sin? When and where shall I begin my penitential lament that will bear fitting fruit? Perhaps soon I may have to face the last hour of my life; my soul will be painfully sundered from my sinful and vile body; I shall have to stand before terrible demons and radiant angels, who will reveal and torment me with my sins; and I, in fear and trembling, will be unprepared and unable to give them an answer; the sight and sound of wailing demons, their violent and bold desire to drag me into the bottomless pit of Hell will fill my soul with confusion and terror. And then the angels of God will lead my poor soul to stand before God 's fearful seat of judgment. How will I answer the Immortal King, or how will I dare, sinner that I am, to look upon My Judge? Woe is me! have no good answer to make, for I have spent all my life in indolence and sin, all my hours and minutes in vain thoughts, desires and yearnings!
And how many times have I taken the Name of God in vain!

How often, lightly and freely, at times even boldly, insolently and shamelessly have I slandered others in anger; offended, irritated, mocked them!

How often have I been proud and vainglorious and boasted of good qualities that I do not possess and of deeds that I have not done!

How many times have I lied, deceived, been cunning or flattered, or been insincere and deceptive; how often have I been angry, intolerant and mean!

How many times have I ridiculed the sins of my brother, caused him grief overtly and covertly, mocked or gloated over his misdeeds, his faults or his misfortunes; how many
times have I been hostile to him, in anger, hatred or envy!

How often have I laughed stupidly, mocked and derided, spoke without weighing my words, ignorantly and senselessly, and uttered a numberless quantity of cutting, poisonous, insolent, frivolous, vulgar, coarse, brazen words!

How often, affected by beauty, have I fed my mind, my imagination and my heart with voluptuous sensations, and unnaturally satisfied the lusts of the flesh in fantasy! How often has my tongue uttered shameful, vulgar and blasphemous things about the desires of the flesh!

How often have I yearned for power and been gluttonous, satiating myself on delicacies, on tasty, varied and diverse foods and wines; because of intemperance and lack of self-control how often have I been filled past the point of satiety, lacked sobriety and been drunken, intemperate in food and drink, and broken the Holy Fasts!

How often, through selfishness, pride or false modesty, have I refused help and attention to those in need, been uncharitable, miserly, unsympathetic, mercenary and grasped at attention!

How often have I entered the House of God without fear and trembling, stood there in prayer, frivolous and absent-minded, and left it in the same spirit and disposition! And in prayer at home I have been just as cold and indifferent, praying little, lazily, and indolently, inattentively and impiously, and even completely omitting the appointed prayers!

And in general, how slothful I have been, weakened by indolence and inaction; how many hours of each day have I spent in sleep, how often have I enjoyed voluptuous thoughts in bed and defiled my flesh! How many hours have I spent in empty and futile pastimes and pleasures, in frivolous talk and speech, jokes and laughter, games and fun, and how much time have I wasted conclusively in chatter, and gossip, in criticizing others and reproaching them; how many hours have I spent in time-wasting and emptiness! What shall I answer to the Lord God for every hour and every minute of lost time? In truth, I have wasted my entire life in laziness.

How many times have I lost heart and despaired of my salvation and of God's mercy or through stupid habit, insensitivity, ignorance, insolence, shamelessness, and hardness sinned deliberately, willingly, in my right mind, in full awareness, in all goodwill, in both thought and intention, and in deed, and in this fashion trampled the blood of God 's covenant and crucified anew within myself the Son of God and cursed Him!
0 how terrible the punishment that I have drawn upon myself!

How is it that my eyes are not streaming with constant tears?.. If only my tears flowed from the cradle to the grave, at every hour and every minute of my tortured life! Who will now cool my head with water and fill the well of my tears and help me weep over my soul that I have cast into perdition?

My God, my God! Why hast Thou forsaken me? Be it unto me according to Thy will, 0 Lord! If Thou wouldst grant me light, be Thou blessed; if Thou wouldst grant me darkness, be Thou equally blessed. If Thou wouldst destroy me together with my lawlessness, glory to Thy righteous judgment; and if Thou wouldst not destroy me together with my lawlessness, glory to Thy boundless mercy!

[Nicolaj]

Thanks for sharing those lovely prayers with us. I am always very graceful for such pillars which help me to survive when being hurt.

It is always edifying when I wait in the church for my confession and I look to the icon of the most Holy Theotokos (or is She looking at me, the sinner?) and it gets warm in my chest and tears of repentance begin to flow. I always prepare with the prayers for preparing for communion.

And wherever I get sad and don't see a way out, I pray the Little Canon to the most Holy Theotokos for Solace, it is like balm flowing from heaven to the wounded.(although called little it takes some time to pray it!)

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Karena Hryniuk]

Thank you for posting this Mary. It seems somewhat of a conflict of emotion or scenario, perhaps this is from personal experience though. When we stand at our altars we try to be calm, emotionally mannered. We are to be attentive (dont slouch) leave all worldly cares aside while we pray. But then the tears start, whaling arriving shortly thereafter leaving us fall to our feet for what seems like hours in slobbery tears. My own personal display of weakness and repentance in its supposed beauty reveals complete lack of discipline and emotional control. How positively pathetic I am in this fight; My helpless soul within this rubbery skin ridiculously reveals its tears, making thee most pitiful sight in front of our Lord.

Quite the scene, really

+t+
Karena

[Mary]

Thank you for posting this Mary. It seems somewhat of a conflict of emotion or scenario, perhaps this is from personal experience though. When we stand at our altars we try to be calm, emotionally mannered. We are to be attentive (dont slouch) leave all worldly cares aside while we pray. But then the tears start, whaling arriving shortly thereafter leaving us fall to our feet for what seems like hours in slobbery tears. My own personal display of weakness and repentance in its supposed beauty reveals complete lack of discipline and emotional control. How positively pathetic I am in this fight; My helpless soul within this rubbery skin ridiculously reveals its tears, making thee most pitiful sight in front of our Lord.

Quite the scene, really

+t+
Karena

Perhaps, that's one more reason why Jesus said we should pray in private?! =)

[Karena Hryniuk]

Perhaps, that's one more reason why Jesus said we should pray in private?! =)

Thanks be to God there are no other adults in my household to hear me pray!

(or sob ridiculously for that matter LOL)

[Nicolaj]

Perhaps, that's one more reason why Jesus said we should pray in private?! =)

Did he?

More he wants us to pray in that room, which is your heart. And to pray there everywhere and any time, like Paul teaches us to do.(pray without ceasing!)

This is a grace, the tears of repentance, and it is nothing to be ashamed for!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Nina]

Did he?

More he wants us to pray in that room, which is your heart.
Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

Truly He is Risen!

Yes, I agree. Fathers say that the room that God mentioned is our heart. That's why hesychasm is a very important aspect of Orthodoxy. Fathers say that Panagia was the first hesychast.

Also tears of repentance are very precious and those are taken by the angels and brought in front of God's throne. However sensitive people like I, should not think that they are crying because they have the gifts of tears. Elder Paisios advices that women should be careful not to delude themselves spiritually because they are by nature very sensitive; at the same time he praises women for being very loving and fervent in their faith. So as always share all thoughts with the spiritual father if you feel embarrassed for your tears etc.

[Mary]

Did he?

More he wants us to pray in that room, which is your heart. And to pray there everywhere and any time, like Paul teaches us to do.(pray without ceasing!)

This is a grace, the tears of repentance, and it is nothing to be ashamed for!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

Nicolaj,

I agree with you completely. But in my own experience, I have noticed a difference between praying in my heart all the time, and specifically praying prayers of repentance, for example, in preparation for communion or confession.

No one said anything about being ashamed of tears, just that, isnt' it best to keep them private? What if they're fake? And if someone sees me weeping tears while I'm praying, and the next minute I sin against them? I'd rather others see my repentance through my changed behavior than by my tears. So, until such time as my behavior starts matching up with my heart, I think it's best to keep my compunction hidden. I dunno. Just a thought.

I'm just projecting, of course. It's much easier for me to forgive someone whose repentance is unknown to me, than the same person, if I hear them speaking words of wisdom, praying with tons of tears and still behaving in their usual sinful ways. So, I imagine it would be the same for them, and I do not wish to make it hard for them to forgive me.

I know, not everyone is like me, and there are those who can forgive me no matter what. But I really can't go around interviewing everyone, and asking them if they'll be able to forgive me if I appear to be a hyporcrite...

I see that I have let my thoughts wander away unchecked. I wonder if I've made any sense to you?

In Christ,
Mary.

[Nina]

Mary,

I think you are very right in what you say. Although I think that Nicolaj is very right that Fathers interpret the room -that Christ speaks about - as being our heart. This does not mean that we can not pray in private, or in a room. Because the words that Nicolaj said that we should pray always and everywhere are an indicator. But he was right to make a distinction because we often hear that "Christ said: pray in private". But He said room and not in private, and also the room He said, Fathers interpret it as our heart. Therefore it includes private also, but in a different way from the common understanding (as it was mine also until some time ago). Now regarding the heart:


Nicolaj,

I agree with you completely. But in my own experience, I have noticed a difference between praying in my heart all the time

I know nothing about such things since I have a hard time praying with lips even let alone with mind and heart, however Fathers say that the prayer of the heart is the highest level of prayer and is achieved through much difficulty and spiritual labor and under the guidance of a very experienced spiritual father. You can find some chapters of the book of Metropolitan Hierotheos, A night in the dessert of the Holy Mountain, on line. And the book explains very well through the words of a very experienced elder of Athos, about such things as the prayer of the heart.

[Mary]

Now regarding the heart:

I agree with you completely. But in my own experience, I have noticed a difference between praying in my heart all the time.

I know nothing about such things since I have a hard time praying with lips even let alone with mind and heart, however Fathers say that the prayer of the heart is the highest level of prayer and is achieved through much difficulty and spiritual labor and under the guidance of a very experienced spiritual father. You can find some chapters of the book of Metropolitan Hierotheos, A night in the dessert of the Holy Mountain, on line. And the book explains very well through the words of a very experienced elder of Athos, about such things as the prayer of the heart.

Ok, I see I haven't spoken clearly. When I said "Praying in my heart all the time..." - what I meant was, praying as I go about my work each day, or when I'm in the car, etc. Of course, I'm not Always praying at such times. Just that when I suddenly become aware of my idle thoughts, I stop thinking and start praying.

But when I prepare for communion or confession, I"m standing in front of my icons and have the words of the prayers printed out in front of me, and I try to gather together all my scattered mind so that I can focus on preparing. I cannot do this while I'm working or while driving in the car. I need to be alone, silent and undistracted. Perhaps it is possible for others to pray like this wherever they are, in the room of their hearts, but for me, I still need my external boundaries to contain my flighty heart.

How much my heart is actually involved in true prayer, only God knows. I've stopped trying to figure out my heart, because it's too bothersome. =)

Mary.

[Nina]

:) I know what you mean and especially when you say about awareness of prodigal mind (Fathers say that the prodigal son is also an analogy to our minds that wander in vain things and do not turn to God) and then starting to pray.

Prayer of the heart is something that Fathers write about but is such a high level that it is intimidating and humbling when even thinking about it. They say that those who have achieved the state of the prayer of the heart, pray even while sleeping, even while talking with other people etc. Imagine!

[Nicolaj]

Dear Brethren!


I wonder if I've made any sense to you?

Yes! You are on the right way and yes you are some what atypical in logics but pleasant to read!

And you are right, when you feel that praying the way you do it now, is for you the best way to pray at this moment in your life.


They say that those who have achieved the state of the prayer of the heart, pray even while sleeping, even while talking with other people etc.

That is were the Philokalie is about, that is what the Russian Pilgrim is saying us! That is were I long to be!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Mary]

Dear Brethren!


Dear Nicolaj,

Nina and I are not your Brethren. We're your sistren! =)

[Peter S.]

Mary,

I know nothing about such things since I have a hard time praying with lips even let alone with mind and heart, however Fathers say that the prayer of the heart is the highest level of prayer

Isn't a kind of prayer of the heart when the words comes naturally and not forced and you mean them? This kind of prayer is a gift. I have experienced it some few times. It is not a prayer of lips, but it is maybe not a prayer of the heart? And certainly not the prayer of heart when you sleep etc.

Is this a level between prayer by the lips and prayer of the heart? I've read about this stages of prayer somewhere but don't remember much of it. I think it was three stages of prayer I read about. (Maybe this kind was called contemplative prayer.)

This kind of prayer is to prefer when you repent I think, because is it a better kind of prayer. And it often starts with the prayer by the lips.

Peter

[Andreas Moran]

Yes, Peter, I believe you are right.

[Karena Hryniuk]

Truly He is Risen!

Yes, I agree. Fathers say that the room that God mentioned is our heart. That's why hesychasm is a very important aspect of Orthodoxy. Fathers say that Panagia was the first hesychast.

Also tears of repentance are very precious and those are taken by the angels and brought in front of God's throne. However sensitive people like I, should not think that they are crying because they have the gifts of tears. Elder Paisios advices that women should be careful not to delude themselves spiritually because they are by nature very sensitive; at the same time he praises women for being very loving and fervent in their faith. So as always share all thoughts with the spiritual father if you feel embarrassed for your tears etc.

This is very true Nina. Perhaps I should make things a bit more clear in regards to my previous post as well. Tears, whether they are of repentance or otherwise should probably be discerned by a Spiritual Father, at least initially. We women sometimes have such accelerated emotions it might be hard for one to acknowledge the cause of tears. Rest assured my personal circumstance still could be viewed from a logical or exterior perspective as a sight for sore eyes lol; however one should be conscious of the the tears, that they are not of self-wallowing, excessive guilt or things of that nature. Tears of repentance are a given but there are other tears of truth and understanding of our Lords Love and great mercy for His people, acknowledgment of Glory through His suffering. There was also something referred to as 'healthy loneliness' in a previous thread (forgive me, I can't quite remember which one) that can be a cause of some tears too.

The few last posts on praying from the heart are also interesting. Although I am not a hesychast in any way..after reciting the routine evening prayers, when the flipping of pages has stopped I, too, often find my most intimate moments are at night in private. Eyes on the icon of my Master in front of me, remaining completely silent. This prayer creates a stillness and peace in the heart that for me is very difficult to describe.

[Andreas Moran]

Wordless prayer is rated very highly by the Fathers.

[Nina]

Karena, I loved reading about your experience. Sorry if it appears my words are related to your post. I was adding some more thoughts to Nicolaj's post, since the Fathers say those, and for the sake of the general thread.

Peter, please disregard my words. Because I am not as blessed to know about such things firsthand. I was merely repeating what Fathers say.

Your (both) personal experiences are so rich and it makes me embarrassed because I am not even 0.1% similar. And of course the words of the Fathers do not exist to lessen personal experiences, but as a measuring rod (especially for those like me with pathetic attempts at praying). The words of the Fathers are a kind of -what is called in English- Canon Law. Like a medicine. If one is not ill, or deficient in a particular aspect, one does not need it.

[Peter S.]

Karena, I loved reading about your experience. Sorry if it appears my words are related to your post. I was adding some more thoughts to Nicolaj's post, since the Fathers say those, and for the sake of the general thread.

Peter, please disregard my words. Because I am not as blessed to know about such things firsthand. I was merely repeating what Fathers say.

Your (both) personal experiences are so rich and it makes me embarrassed because I am not even 0.1% similar. And of course the words of the Fathers do not exist to lessen personal experiences, but as a measuring rod (especially for those like me with pathetic attempts at praying). The words of the Fathers are a kind of -what is called in English- Canon Law. Like a medicine. If one is not ill, or deficient in a particular aspect, one does not need it.

Dear Nina.

I don't recognize myself in your words that your prayers are not even 0.1 % similar than mine. :) I am sure you will experience the same gift as I had sometime when you pray if you don't already know what I mean.

Yesterday I also stopped flipping pages when I prayed my eveningprayer, so I tried something new and started to pray the Jesusprayer instead. Not for very long. It was better.
Sometimes I think that my prayer must have a certain lenght, and therefore I wont stop praying the usual eveningprayer. It must go on... So I am sometimes lazy when I pray. I want to be finnished before I start. But its good to variate as I did yesterday.

I found out that the medicine to my laziness in prayer is to pray as if you talked to a living person, and sometimes focus on Christ's face... And yes he lives. He is resurrected. The prayer becomes more real and engaging when I do this. I can recommend a book as you maybe knows which deals with this relationship: "God and You: Person to person" by Anthony M. Coniaris. I ve got a book from Light and Life Publishing Company in Minneapolis.

Peter

[Peter S.]

Dear Nina.

I don't recognize myself in your words that your prayers are not even 0.1 % similar than mine. :) I am sure you will experience the same gift as I had sometime when you pray if you don't already know what I mean.

Yesterday I also stopped flipping pages when I prayed my eveningprayer, so I tried something new and started to pray the Jesusprayer instead. Not for very long. It was better.
Sometimes I think that my prayer must have a certain lenght, and therefore I wont stop praying the usual eveningprayer. It must go on... So I am sometimes lazy when I pray. I want to be finnished before I start. But its good to variate as I did yesterday.

I found out that the medicine to my laziness in prayer is to pray as if you talked to a living person, and sometimes focus on Christ's face... And yes he lives. He is resurrected. The prayer becomes more real and engaging when I do this. I can recommend a book as you maybe knows which deals with this relationship: "God and You: Person to person" by Anthony M. Coniaris. I ve got a book from Light and Life Publishing Company in Minneapolis.

Peter

Oh dear.
I am still and often lazy when I pray... :)

Peter

[Nina]

Oh dear.
I am still and often lazy when I pray... :)

Peter

Andreas said something very interesting in another thread that a Bishop had told him. When our mind is thinking about God it is considered also prayer. (Andreas can say it much better).

[Peter S.]

Andreas said something very interesting in another thread that a Bishop had told him. When our mind is thinking about God it is considered also prayer. (Andreas can say it much better).

Yes that is very true. Jesus wants to be our friend, he wants us to think often about him and his life. That he is Life.

Peter