Differences in serving with a bishop or an archbishop

[Kris]

Hi,

Does anyone know whether there are any big differences (in Greek usage) between a liturgy attended by a bishop and a liturgy attended by an archbishop - specifically from the point of view of an altar servant (i.e. who gets the censer and when, etc.)?

Thanks

[Michael Stickles]

I was only able to find three online guides to Hierarchical Services, and none were for Greek practice. The first two, The Divine Liturgy: With Notes for Serving (http://www.ocadow.org/texts/Liturgy_notes.pdf) (footnotes deal with differences in serving for the Hierarchical Divine Liturgy, and note differences in Russian, Greek, etc. traditions), and Rubrics on Hierarchical Services (http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/hierarchical_services_rubrics.htm) (Russian tradition again), do not note any differences regarding whether a bishop or an archbishop is serving and/or attending. The third, Introductory Notes To The Order Of The Daily Services For Regional And National Conferences (http://www.antiochian.org/assets/asset_manager/f2a691eea70618256e9e84e66343a848.pdf) (Antiochian Orthodox), has some differences depending on ranks of hierarchs, but I have no idea how much (if anything) will be applicable to the Greek practice.

Hopefully this will be of some use, but admittedly, someone who actually knows the answer would definitely be of more use.

In Christ,
Mike

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I was only able to find three online guides to Hierarchical Services, and none were for Greek practice. The first two, The Divine Liturgy: With Notes for Serving (http://www.ocadow.org/texts/Liturgy_notes.pdf) (footnotes deal with differences in serving for the Hierarchical Divine Liturgy, and note differences in Russian, Greek, etc. traditions), and Rubrics on Hierarchical Services (http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/hierarchical_services_rubrics.htm) (Russian tradition again), do not note any differences regarding whether a bishop or an archbishop is serving and/or attending. The third, Introductory Notes To The Order Of The Daily Services For Regional And National Conferences (http://www.antiochian.org/assets/asset_manager/f2a691eea70618256e9e84e66343a848.pdf) (Antiochian Orthodox), has some differences depending on ranks of hierarchs, but I have no idea how much (if anything) will be applicable to the Greek practice.

Hopefully this will be of some use, but admittedly, someone who actually knows the answer would definitely be of more use.

In Christ,
Mike

These instructions along with a number of books like the Hierarchal Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom (New Sarov Press) can be helpful.

In my experience however unless you are gifted with photographic memory which can then project in 3-D, the real life saver is the deacons(s) and or subdeacon(s) who the bishop usually brings with him. These usually know the service so well they could do it in their sleep and as long as they are remain calm and collected during the service (most do :) are more than willing to instruct others as to what to do next.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[M.C. Steenberg]

In my experience, the question of 'general' differences in serving between ranks of bishops is fairly to the side (in any case, I don't believe there are any standard differences between bishops, archbishops and metropolitans; the only formalised differences of which I know in standard serving elements are in patriarchal Liturgies, which include a few elements uniquely their own) -- the real issue is the fact that no two bishops serve alike.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Kris]

Dear Mike, thank you for the links. They seem very helpful and I hope I'll be able to retain at least some of what is written there. But if what Fr. Matthew has written is correct, I think, as Fr. Raphael pointed out, I'd be better off relying on the expertese of the deacons than my own memory.

Thanks again to all who replied!

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

It happens that for many years I have been in an isolated area where one rarely is able to serve with a bishop. Consequently over they years I really have begun to forget all the basics of how to serve with a bishop.

In the past whenever a bishop was about to visit our parish I would hit the books as much as possible. But then when the bishop would show up I would notice I really had learned little and that actually the deacons could direct you much better than anyone else.

So recently I needed to be somewhere to serve with our bishop. I read a little bit through the book I mentioned above and then put it down. As it turned out the Liturgy with the bishop went very well even though there wasn't even a deacon present. Between the help from the subdeacon the bishop brought with him and the bishop's own very calm instructions the Liturgy was about the most peaceful I have ever experienced with a bishop. As it turned out even the little reading I had done on how to serve with a bishop wasn't necessary.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Alex Haig]

the real issue is the fact that no two bishops serve alike.

Further problems are made when the same bishop serves each Liturgy differently despite him insisting he does the same each time!

With love in Christ

Alex

[Kris]

The day having passed, the only real difference I noticed was the ringing of the bells and use of the censer for the entrance of the Archbishop into the church, which occured during Matins. Liturgy itself didn't really seem any different.

Other than that I can only say that 1 Archbishop + 2 assistant bishops + 8 priests + 1 deacon + 1 subdeacon + 2 alter servants in 1 altar = total chaos. Very stressful, very confusing (no one but the Archbishop seemed to know what was going on), but very enjoyable!

[Alex Haig]

no one but the Archbishop seemed to know what was going on

As it should be!

[Michael Astley]

May I ask a few questions for practical use in the near future.

In the Byzantine Rite, at the Hours, when a bishop is to serve and is present, is he asked for the blessing in the "Master" form? I would have assumed so, only I was recently present at such an occasion where the "Father" form was used, and one of the priest-concelebrants gave the blessing in the bishop's presence. I shall be praying the Hours in a few weeks' time and would be grateful for any guidance.

Also, what are the occasions for "Many years, master!" during the Byzantine Liturgy? I know a few of them but would like to check that I have it right as I shall be directing the choir and am still very new to much of this. Thank you so much for your help.

In Christ,
Michael

[Father David Moser]

May I ask a few questions for practical use in the near future.

In the Byzantine Rite, at the Hours, when a bishop is to serve and is present, is he asked for the blessing in the "Master" form?

Anytime a bishop is present (and even if he's not and you are in his cathedral) the form is always "Master bless" Even if a priest is giving the blessing (he does not bless with his hand, but only gives the verbal blessing) still, the form is "Master bless".



Also, what are the occasions for "Many years, master!" during the Byzantine Liturgy? I know a few of them but would like to check that I have it right as I shall be directing the choir and am still very new to much of this.

Any decent book with hierarchal rubrics should be able to give you that information. Hapgood or the service book for hierarchal liturgy published by New Sarov Press (if you can find it anywhere) or the Abridged Typicon from St Tikhon's all are good sources for hierarchal rubrics.

Fr David Moser

[Michael Astley]

Anytime a bishop is present (and even if he's not and you are in his cathedral) the form is always "Master bless" Even if a priest is giving the blessing (he does not bless with his hand, but only gives the verbal blessing) still, the form is "Master bless".

Splendid! Thank you, Father.


Any decent book with hierarchal rubrics should be able to give you that information. Hapgood or the service book for hierarchal liturgy published by New Sarov Press (if you can find it anywhere) or the Abridged Typicon from St Tikhon's all are good sources for hierarchal rubrics.

Thank you, again. I have managed to borrow a copy from my parish priest and shall scour it later today, after I have had a chance to catch up on sleep.

In Christ,
Michael (the grateful).

[Michael Astley]

A very quick question:

Am I correct in understanding that the processional Cross is used during the Liturgy, (for the reception of the bishop and at the entrances), only if it is an Hierarchical Liturgy and then only if the First Hierarch is presiding?

Thank you.

Michael

[Kris]

A very quick question:

Am I correct in understanding that the processional Cross is used during the Liturgy, (for the reception of the bishop and at the entrances), only if it is an Hierarchical Liturgy and then only if the First Hierarch is presiding?

Thank you.

Michael

I attend two parishes regularly. One on Saturday, another on Sunday. The church I attend on Saturday has no bishop present, but a processional Cross is always used during the Great Entrance. In the church I attend on Sundays, where the bishop is always present, I have never seen it used, even when the Arhcbishop visits.

[Anthony Stokes]

Also, what are the occasions for "Many years, master!" during the Byzantine Liturgy? I know a few of them but would like to check that I have it right as I shall be directing the choir and am still very new to much of this. Thank you so much for your help.
In Christ,
Michael

Michael,
The short form of Eis polla eti, Despota is used at the Liturgy at the following times:
After the Gospel (after Glory to Thee...)
After the Cherubic Hymn (after alleluia)
After Communion (after alleluia of the communion hymn)
After the Dismissal

If the bishop doesn't vest in the nave, but does the entrance prayers, then the short version is used immediately after "It is truly meet..."

The long Eis polla is used after the Entrance of the clergy (Come, let us worship...)

Ton Despotin is used when the bishop vests in the nave twice:
After "It is meet..."
Once the bishop is fully vested, so after "The prophets proclaim..."

Hope that helps a little bit. There are some good websites about hierarchical liturgies for choir directors out there.

Sbdn. Anthony

[Alex Haig]

Also, what are the occasions for "Many years, master!" during the Byzantine Liturgy? I know a few of them but would like to check that I have it right as I shall be directing the choir and am still very new to much of this. Thank you so much for your help.


In addition to Subdeacon Anthony's responce it is very common in the Greek practice for the choir to sing eis polla eti despota softly when the bishop is commemorated during a litany: I have even heard this replace the Lord have mercy for that petition.

With love in Christ

Alex

[M.C. Steenberg]

In addition to Subdeacon Anthony's responce it is very common in the Greek practice for the choir to sing eis polla eti despota softly when the bishop is commemorated during a litany: I have even heard this replace the Lord have mercy for that petition.
How very curious. I've never encountered this... even in Greece!

[Olga]

I echo Alex's observation. It is analogous to the Greek practice of the choir/chanters intoning "Most-holy Mother of God, save us" while the priest chants "Commemorating our most-holy, most-pure, most-blessed and glorious Lady ..." in litanies.

[Andreas Moran]

Olga: I echo Alex's observation.

So do I - I remember this in Greek parishes here.

[Alex Haig]

How very curious. I've never encountered this... even in Greece!

Perhaps I should be less liberal with my sweeping statements? A

[Michael Astley]

Thank you, all.

I originally asked the question about the Eis polla eti, Dhespota as I had been asked to look after the music for an hierarchical Liturgy outside of normal church circles a year or so ago. Having only been to one, and that in Slavonic, I didn't really know what I was doing so needed as much help as possible, really. :-)

Since then, I have served at a few hierarchical liturgies, and have acquired both a copy of A Subdeacon's Manual and the Christ of the Hills (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_OjXAAAACAAJ&dq=9781880364086) book, which is rather good. I now know my way much better around a liturgy presided over by a hierarch, although I still make embarrasing and disruptive mistakes each time. It is in the former publication that I came across something that hinted at, but didn't make clear, the use of the processional Cross that I asked about above. If true, it would corroborate my experience in Russian parishes. In fact, the only times I remember seeing a processional Cross used during the Liturgy in a Russian church have been in patriarchal Liturgies from Christ the Saviour.

As for the eis polla eti, Dhespota during the commemoration of the bishop in the litany, I have seen it scribbled in choir copies of the liturgy from a Greek parish where I have friends. I also witnessed it done in 2007 when Archbishop Gregorios of Thyateira presided over the Liturgy at the annual pilgrimage to St Winefride's well.

In Christ,
Michael

[Paul Cowan]

I echo Alex's observation. It is analogous to the Greek practice of the choir/chanters intoning "Most-holy Mother of God, save us" while the priest chants "Commemorating our most-holy, most-pure, most-blessed and glorious Lady ..." in litanies.

Ditto down here.

[Michael Astley]

I recently served at an hierarchical Liturgy at which there were two ROCOR bishops and two bishops of the Russian Patriarchal Church concelebrating. At various times, such as giving a blessing to vest with the stikhar, having their hands washed during the cherubic hymn, and so forth, the ROCOR hierarchs both proffered their hands to be kissed, which is what I am accustomed to, while the "patriarchal" bishops did not. The servers were just sort of left standing there, waiting for something that wasn't going to happen. Is this a difference in tradition or is it the result of some swine flu directive?

[Paul Cowan]

I have had priests pull their hand out of mine after their blessing and before I could kiss them. Somehitng about not being worthy of that honor.

[Michael Astley]

Hmmm. I can sort of understand that. I didn't really expect the change in how people at my parish and elsewhere would relate to me after I was "turned into" a reader. At first, it made me very uncomfortable because I was unaccustomed to anything like it, and these were only minor social acts of deference because I was in a cassock. I imagine that this feeling is somewhat magnified for new priests, with various bows, requests for blessings, kisses, and titles. However, after a while, I came to realise that this is simply the culture of Orthodoxy and that many Orthodox people find it important to their own sense of belonging and devotion to Christ to give this respect to the office that they see represented in the clergy. I remembered the first time I sought a blessing from a particular priest, (at whose parish, I later learnt, this is not customary), and he made a joke out of it, presumably because it made him self-conscious, then he got serious when he realised I was confused, and has been reverent about it ever since. So, in time, I simply came to accept that it is better for me to try to be gracious in accepting the way things are rather than to disrupt people's sense of devotion in order to alleviate my own personal discomfort. Now, I'm just at ease with things. I don't presume upon people's deference - I'm only a reader, after all - but I accept what I'm offered without complaint or fuss. I think I would struggle if a priest or bishop pulled his hand away when I tried to kiss it.

In Christ,
Michael

[Dimitris]

Hallo!

If you think it is tricky to participate in a Liturgy with one or two bishops look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCP2L2-qUrQ. There you will find a short clip (showing the "It is truly right to bless you, Theotokos" sung at the diptychs after the epiclese) from last Sunday's "Patriarchal and Polyarchieratical Divine Liturgy" in the metropolitan church of Saint Dionysios in Zakynthos, Greece. Concelebrating were the Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria Theodoros, the Archbishop of Greece Ieronymos and the Archbishop of Cyprus Chrysostomos - and another some 40 bishops!

By the way: Does anybody know about the background of this great concelebration? Was there a special reason? The Liturgy was broadcast by Greek television, but unfortunatelly I didn't know that before. This video from Youtube is the only clip I found from this concelebration. Also on the website of the Mitropolis of Zakynthos I didn't find any information.