Description of the earth in the eternal kingdom

[Jorgo Ristevski]

I wonder after the Final Judgement what will the world look lik (I know it will be perfect)?I mean will all plants, animals, humans and angels gonna live together for ever and is Earth going to be recreated? Thanks.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I wonder after the Final Judgement what will the world look lik (I know it will be perfect)?I mean will all plants, animals, humans and angels gonna live together for ever and is Earth going to be recreated? Thanks.


Something along those lines.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Shaun Little]

Who will be the rulers in God's Kingdom?
Rev 15:3; Dan 7:13,14; Rev 5:9,10.
What effect will the Kingdom have on human/Satanic governments?
Dan 2:44; Ps 2:8,9.
What will the Kingdom accomplish?--Uphold God's Name and sovereignty:-
Ezek 38:23; Matt 6:9,10.
Put an end to Satan's Rulership;-
Rev 20:2,3;
Unify all creation under God!
Rev 5:13; 15:3,4.
Bring mankind back into harmonious relationship with God.
Rom 8:19-21.
Free Mankind from the threat of war.
Ps 46:8,9. Isa 2:4.
Rid the Earth of corrupt rulers and oppression.
Ps 110:5 Ps 72:12-14.
Provide an abundance of food for all.
Ps 72:16; Isa 25:6.
Remove sickness and disabilities of every kind.
Luke 7:22; 9:11.
End homelessness .
Isa 65:21,22.
End unemployment.
Isa 65:23.
Provide lasting security.
Mic4:4 Ps 37:10,11.
Provide righteous justice.
2 Pet 3:13 Isa 11:3-5.
Save from natural disaster.
Mark4:37-41.
Resurrect the dead.
John 5:28,29; Rev 20:12
Remove death.
Isa 25:8; Rev21:4.
Provide a world of love.
John 13:35.
Bring man and animals into harmonious relationship with one another.
Isa 11:6-9; Hos 2:18.
Form a true Paradise.
Ps 98:7-9. Compare Genesis 1:28; 2:15 and Isaiah 55:11.
The above quotations are some of what i read from a free tract out of Ilfracombe Church when i was a fifteen year old boy and had a holiday there drowned in rain . I read the tract through boredom and was saved. Please read these quotations as they hav power to save. Why not also make some free tracts from them to give away.
Shaun.

[Paul Cowan]

The above quotations are some of what i read from a free tract out of Ilfracombe Church when i was a fifteen year old boy and had a holiday there drowned in rain . I read the tract through boredom and was saved. Please read these quotations as they hav power to save. Why not also make some free tracts from them to give away.
Shaun.


Dear Shaun,

Forgive me I don't mean to dampen what you read as a youth and any positive influence it had on you. But the topics of choice and the versus provided don't go far. Some don't even tie in with each other. There are many topics under the sun that can be listed and versus pulled out of the Bible to support any one of them.

For example
God enjoys killing
Exodus 15:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=15&verse=3&version=9&context=verse)

Take what does not belong to you
Leviticus 20:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=20&verse=24&version=9&context=verse)

God is a liar and does not keep his word
1 Kings 9:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=11&chapter=9&verse=7&version=9&context=verse)

These are all extreme examples of negativity, but to look at passages solo scriptura and especially out of context without seeing the Tradition of the Church really does not amount to much other than just picking versus to suit ones own agenda. Some agendas are good and some agendas are not so good.

Paul

[Andreas Moran]

End unemployment.


Remove death.

What??? I've got to work? For ever?????

[Shaun Little]

What??? I've got to work? For ever?????

Being a Christian?-not on Earth. You would be a nation of Kings and Priests.
But what of the millions who have never heard of Jesus, even today?
What of the millions of souls prior to Christ's coming? John The Baptist for example? Remember Jesus said at His time on Earth that no-one had seen God, except Him? He was the firstfruits of salvation.
Yes some will work. They will be working for God.

[Shaun Little]

Dear Shaun,

Forgive me I don't mean to dampen what you read as a youth and any positive influence it had on you. But the topics of choice and the versus provided don't go far. Some don't even tie in with each other. There are many topics under the sun that can be listed and versus pulled out of the Bible to support any one of them.

For example
God enjoys killing
Exodus 15:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=15&verse=3&version=9&context=verse)

Take what does not belong to you
Leviticus 20:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=20&verse=24&version=9&context=verse)

God is a liar and does not keep his word
1 Kings 9:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=11&chapter=9&verse=7&version=9&context=verse)

These are all extreme examples of negativity, but to look at passages solo scriptura and especially out of context without seeing the Tradition of the Church really does not amount to much other than just picking versus to suit ones own agenda. Some agendas are good and some agendas are not so good.

Paul
Yes ,i agree. The verses i quoted are those which had power to save me. There are many more. It is not my own agenda , but, the teaching of The Church as well. The Kingdom was the prime teaching of the early Church, from Christ through the Apostles and the followers until Constantine. The Papacy subverted the glad tidings-hence the Eastern Church and Western Reformation were developed by God to free us from Romish Apostasy.
The Pharisees went in for too much tradition and look what became of them.
Shaun.

[Nina]

The Pharisees went in for too much tradition and look what became of them.
Shaun.

Dear Shaun,

There was no one more traditionalist than Christ when He was on earth. In everything He did, He obeyed the Law/Tradition. There are some beautiful things St. Nikodemos Agioritis (of Mount Athos) writes about the relation of Christ to the Law. Why do we say that Christ had no sin, no fault, no transgression? Because it was so. If Christ transgressed, did not obey the Law/Tradition then there would actually have been a reason to condemn Him and the Pharisees would have been justified. We must remember: Christ never transgressed.

Pharisees had the wrong understanding of their Tradition. Pharisees failed because of their self-righteousness, which is actually pride (what made Satan fall, what made Adam and Eve fall). Pride is the reason that Pharisees did not humble themselves in front of Christ, but fought Him. And also a literal understanding of Scripture did not help the Pharisees either.

[Paul Cowan]

Yes ,i agree. The verses i quoted are those which had power to save me. There are many more. It is not my own agenda , but, the teaching of The Church as well. The Kingdom was the prime teaching of the early Church, from Christ through the Apostles and the followers until Constantine. The Papacy subverted the glad tidings-hence the Eastern Church and Western Reformation were developed by God to free us from Romish Apostasy.
The Pharisees went in for too much tradition and look what became of them.
Shaun.

Shaun,

I am very glad of your experience as a youth in the good tidings of the Message to bring you to the knowledge of Christ. However, the rest of your post is flawed in many ways. Christians were first called such in Antioch hence the Eastern Church came first. Not the RC Papacy. Rome was actually the last of the 5 patriarchial centers of the Church to "join the club". The Western reformation happened 1500 years after Christ and it was NOT developed by God. God is the same yesterday, today and forever and so is the Church He founded at Pentecost. Again, not the RC Church. Nor the Lutherans, nor the Methodist, nor the Anglicans, nor the other 22,000 "Christian" churchs around the world today. Even St. Paul speaks to his disciples of keeping the traditions they were taught.

The Church does NOt teach taking scripture out of context nor using versus set apart from the traditions She knows. Scripture is an essential element to knowing God, but to "understand" scripture you have to take into account the times of the men writing it. Fasting is an example. Few people do it today. The Bible does not specifically say "you must fast." However Christ said "When you fast..." this was the basic assumption that everyone was and would continue to fast holding to the tradition of fasting.

I am sorry, but your understanding of the Eastern Orthodox Church is not up to speed.

Paul

[Rick H.]

Pharisees had the wrong understanding of their Tradition. Pharisees failed because of their self-righteousness, which is actually pride (what made Satan fall, what made Adam and Eve fall). Pride is the reason that Pharisees did not humble themselves in front of Christ, but fought Him. And also a literal understanding of Scripture did not help the Pharisees either.



Dear Nina,

I haven't been following this thread, so I am not really up to speed here. But, I just read your post and felt compelled to say thanks for this--it really speaks to me--and, I feel you have drawn some important distinctions here.

In Christ,
Rick

PS Would you believe I can't find my chai recipe that I want to share. I've been looking for it for two days now. I worked hard on that recipe too getting it just right. Possibly, I am sharing too much information about myself here, but I had it down to even how many of which peppercorn goes in! I have actually have different recipes for differnt styles of chai (I made form to develop the different styles :). Just did some work in the kitchen, they must have been misplaced. I'll be very bummed if I can't find them. I'll keep looking.

[Nina]

Dear Nina,

I haven't been following this thread, so I am not really up to speed here. But, I just read your post and felt compelled to say thanks for this--it really speaks to me--and, I feel you have drawn some important distinctions here.

In Christ,
Rick


Dear Rick,

I did not draw any distinctions myself. I have read those words from the Fathers. Therefore your thanks go to God and the Fathers. The problem is that I do not remember the names of the Fathers (besides St. Nikodemos of Mount Athos) and where did they write it. :(



PS Would you believe I can't find my chai recipe that I want to share. I've been looking for it for two days now. I worked hard on that recipe too getting it just right. Possibly, I am sharing too much information about myself here, but I had it down to even how many of which peppercorn goes in! I have actually have different recipes for differnt styles of chai (I made form to develop the different styles :). Just did some work in the kitchen, they must have been misplaced. I'll be very bummed if I can't find them. I'll keep looking.

:D Aaa Rick, please do not let us down at the thread of Mary without your chai recipe. Actually I am still amazed from the recipe of the soy milk you shared. I can't believe how simple it sounds.

[Sean M.]

Yes ,i agree. The verses i quoted are those which had power to save me. There are many more. It is not my own agenda , but, the teaching of The Church as well. The Kingdom was the prime teaching of the early Church, from Christ through the Apostles and the followers until Constantine. The Papacy subverted the glad tidings-hence the Eastern Church and Western Reformation were developed by God to free us from Romish Apostasy.
The Pharisees went in for too much tradition and look what became of them.
Shaun.

Yes but Jesus also told the crowds to, "do whatever they teach you and follow it," regarding the Pharisees(Matthew23:2)

God also brought many enemies against Israel, but they were still entrusted with the oracles of God(Romans3:2)

[Father David Moser]

Being a Christian?-not on Earth. You would be a nation of Kings and Priests.
But what of the millions who have never heard of Jesus, even today?
What of the millions of souls prior to Christ's coming? John The Baptist for example? Remember Jesus said at His time on Earth that no-one had seen God, except Him? He was the firstfruits of salvation.
Yes some will work. They will be working for God.

This sounds a lot like protestant triumphalism. Can you give any patristic references for this idea?

Fr David Moser

[Father David Moser]

Actually I am still amazed from the recipe of the soy milk you shared. I can't believe how simple it sounds.

Actually I find it much simpler to buy the soy milk already made up at the supermarket. Silk actually has about the same balance of carbs and proteins as cow's milk.

Fr David Moser

[Yuri Zharikov]

Please read these quotations as they hav power to save. Why not also make some free tracts from them to give away.
Shaun.

I do not think that quotations have the power to save. Quotations are from the books written and preserved by the Body of Christ, His Church. One is saved insofar as he/she becomes a member of the Body... but true enough the written word of God can direct one along the way of salvation (for me it was the Book of Revelations).

Yura

[Yuri Zharikov]

Pharisees had the wrong understanding of their Tradition. Pharisees failed because of their self-righteousness, which is actually pride (what made Satan fall, what made Adam and Eve fall). Pride is the reason that Pharisees did not humble themselves in front of Christ, but fought Him. And also a literal understanding of Scripture did not help the Pharisees either.

Nina,
This is interesting... do you think that that Adam and Eve tasted of the fruit was a result of their first succumbing to pride?... I am thinking on the fly here... It must be true, because the serpent told them they would be like gods knowing the good and evil. Never mind,

Yura

[Andreas Moran]

Quotation:
Originally Posted by Andreas Moran
What??? I've got to work? For ever?????

Yes some will work. They will be working for God.

Phew! That's alright then.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Yes ,i agree. The verses i quoted are those which had power to save me.

Um, no, actually, they don't. Christ saves, verses don't. This is a classic Protestant misunderstanding. I believe the technical word for it is biblidolatry. The Word of God is not a book, He is a Person, Christ the Lord. We are not saved by reading about Him, we are saved by knowing Him and living in a relationship with Him. Reading about Him is only one piece of that.


There are many more. It is not my own agenda , but, the teaching of The Church as well.

Which community of believers are you referring to, specifically?


The Kingdom was the prime teaching of the early Church, from Christ through the Apostles and the followers until Constantine. The Papacy subverted the glad tidings-hence the Eastern Church and Western Reformation were developed by God to free us from Romish Apostasy.

Interesting revisionist history you have there. Orthodoxy has always taught "Blessed is the Kingdom...", we begin every Divine Liturgy with these words. It is not something that "developed", it has always been there, just like Orthodoxy has always "been there" since well before St. Constantine. And I do not believe that Orthodoxy, as a general rule, sees the western "reformation" in a positive light. The pendulum has swung too far.


The Pharisees went in for too much tradition and look what became of them.
Shaun.

So, what exactly became of them? St. Paul was a Pharisee, remember? It was not "too much" tradition, but rather, as has already been stated, a wrong understanding of tradition, that was the issue.

Herman the Pooh

[Rick H.]

KJV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


I use the expression 'bibliolatry' but with the same meaning. But, as said above, this is a classic misunderstanding as some interchange the written word for the gospel of Christ, the kerygma of Christ which is the Kingdom of God--"a radical personalism". And, when we reference the Kingdom and the Trinity we are speaking of both knowing and being, relationship--experience/encounter--a personal relationship.

[Shaun Little]

I do not think that quotations have the power to save. Quotations are from the books written and preserved by the Body of Christ, His Church. One is saved insofar as he/she becomes a member of the Body... but true enough the written word of God can direct one along the way of salvation (for me it was the Book of Revelations).

Yura
When i say the power to save,i mean that they being the Word of God, showed me through Holy Spirit what God's Kingdom meant to idealistic young teens. From reading them along with a tract, i went to Church, was baptized and confirmed after developing a relationship with Christ.

[Shaun Little]

Shaun,

I am very glad of your experience as a youth in the good tidings of the Message to bring you to the knowledge of Christ. However, the rest of your post is flawed in many ways. Christians were first called such in Antioch hence the Eastern Church came first. Not the RC Papacy. Rome was actually the last of the 5 patriarchial centers of the Church to "join the club". The Western reformation happened 1500 years after Christ and it was NOT developed by God. God is the same yesterday, today and forever and so is the Church He founded at Pentecost. Again, not the RC Church. Nor the Lutherans, nor the Methodist, nor the Anglicans, nor the other 22,000 "Christian" churchs around the world today. Even St. Paul speaks to his disciples of keeping the traditions they were taught.

The Church does NOt teach taking scripture out of context nor using versus set apart from the traditions She knows. Scripture is an essential element to knowing God, but to "understand" scripture you have to take into account the times of the men writing it. Fasting is an example. Few people do it today. The Bible does not specifically say "you must fast." However Christ said "When you fast..." this was the basic assumption that everyone was and would continue to fast holding to the tradition of fasting.

I am sorry, but your understanding of the Eastern Orthodox Church is not up to speed.

Paul
Show me one example of the scriptures i speak of as being out of context.

[Shaun Little]

Yes but Jesus also told the crowds to, "do whatever they teach you and follow it," regarding the Pharisees(Matthew23:2)

God also brought many enemies against Israel, but they were still entrusted with the oracles of God(Romans3:2)
Well quoted and food for thought.

[Shaun Little]

This sounds a lot like protestant triumphalism. Can you give any patristic references for this idea?

Fr David Moser
To me ,Patristic referenc3es are worthless. A bit like asking Jesus who gave him authority to teach.From my tradition there is no other guide than Scripture and Holy Spirit given during the study of.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

As this discussion carries on with relevant comments on the sources for teachings on the earth in the eternal kingdom, in scripture, the fathers, etc., please do let's resist the urge to reduce it to a discussion simply of 'scripture versus tradition', which this thread is not really for. Keep in mind its title: Description of the earth in the eternal kingdom, and let us attempt to keep discussion centred on this.

With thanks,

INXC, Dcn Matthew
Monachos.net

[Andreas Moran]

While having due regard for Dcn Matthew's urging, this thread will stall if we Orthodox cannot find common ground with Shaun. Of course, we Orthodox cannot say that patristic references are worthless. The Bible is the book of the Church. It was the Fathers of the Orthodox Church - patristic authorities - who decided which books should be scripture and which should not be. Shaun's dismissal of patristic references clearly does not relect that reality. I'm puzzled by what Shaun says in his post #7: 'It is not my agenda, but, the teaching of the Church as well.' This begs two questions. First, which Church? Secondly, what teaching? As to the second question, if patristic references are worthless, what teaching is referred to? And if scripture and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are all that is necessary, why have any teaching? Since Shaun does rely on scripture, what would be his understanding of the scriptural passage where Philip joins the Ethiopian to teach him how to understand the scriptures? Philip could have told him, 'read and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you'. The Anglican Church, from what little I know of it, has a strong tradition of referring to the same Fathers as we Orthodox. Wasn't Wesley's spirituality based on the Greek Fathers? Didn't Anglican 19th century scholars and divines labour hugely to translate the writings of the Fathers - 'patristic references' - into English? Shaun's Anglican tradition does not exclude patristic references. If Shaun acknowledges that then maybe some common ground can be found and we can centre the discussion on the subject of this thread.

[Shaun Little]

While having due regard for Dcn Matthew's urging, this thread will stall if we Orthodox cannot find common ground with Shaun. Of course, we Orthodox cannot say that patristic references are worthless. The Bible is the book of the Church. It was the Fathers of the Orthodox Church - patristic authorities - who decided which books should be scripture and which should not be. Shaun's dismissal of patristic references clearly does not relect that reality. I'm puzzled by what Shaun says in his post #7: 'It is not my agenda, but, the teaching of the Church as well.' This begs two questions. First, which Church? Secondly, what teaching? As to the second question, if patristic references are worthless, what teaching is referred to? And if scripture and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are all that is necessary, why have any teaching? Since Shaun does rely on scripture, what would be his understanding of the scriptural passage where Philip joins the Ethiopian to teach him how to understand the scriptures? Philip could have told him, 'read and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you'. The Anglican Church, from what little I know of it, has a strong tradition of referring to the same Fathers as we Orthodox. Wasn't Wesley's spirituality based on the Greek Fathers? Didn't Anglican 19th century scholars and divines labour hugely to translate the writings of the Fathers - 'patristic references' - into English? Shaun's Anglican tradition does not exclude patristic references. If Shaun acknowledges that then maybe some common ground can be found and we can centre the discussion on the subject of this thread.

Dear Andreas,

I would like to apologize unreservedly for my saying that Patristic references were worthless. What an awful way to say something.I was trying to say that i held Scripture as the rod to which i use for measuring truth and hold it above everything. Only , it came out wrong and in a disgusting way. I apologize again to everyone here.

I don't hold that view of the Early Church Fathers an was only last week studying the Epistle of Barnabus.There can be much gleaned from such writings if we can marry them to scripture.

Shaun.

[Owen Jones]

I wish I could ban the term "personal relationship" from all theological discourse. I cannot have a personal relationship with my Creator who is absolutely distinct in His Essence from His creatures. I can however be restored to the true image and likeness in and through His power (energies) by cleaving to God and becoming one with God. If my marriage were simply a personal relationship, it would be a sham. It is a cleaving to, a becoming one with, a glorification of two becoming one.

This is the essence of the Church's eucharistic doctrine. I do not have a personal relationship with Christ. I eat His flesh and I drink His blood that we would become one, my body His body, my mind His mind. The people who had a personal relationship with Jesus all betrayed or denied Him.

[Nina]

Dear Andreas,

I would like to apologize unreservedly for my saying that Patristic references were worthless. What an awful way to say something.I was trying to say that i held Scripture as the rod to which i use for measuring truth and hold it above everything. Only , it came out wrong and in a disgusting way. I apologize again to everyone here.

I don't hold that view of the Early Church Fathers an was only last week studying the Epistle of Barnabus.There can be much gleaned from such writings if we can marry them to scripture.

Shaun.

Dear Shaun,

No reason to apologize, since we all are learning here.

What is important to understand is that Andreas was also trying to explain that Scripture was also work of the Fathers. Scripture did not fly as a book in a balloon down to earth. It was written by the Holy Fathers. Remember the King David and the training you mentioned from God to him? He is a Holy Father also. The New Testament? There were many books that could have been included in the NT, however when he Holy Fathers gathered (a couple of centuries after NT was written) they decided which books will be included in the NT as we know it today. The Holy Spirit guided all the Holy Fathers from the times of Noah, Abraham to the contemporary Elders that will be canonized as saints.

P.S Sorry Fr. Dcn. Matthew that I could not resist posting this here.

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Andreas,

I would like to apologize unreservedly

As Nina said, Shaun, please do not feel the need to apologise. Please accept that the Orthodox Church is a profoundly scriptural Church, much more so that many non-Orthodox realise. Every thing we do is based upon scripture. I think of patristic authority this way. In any field of activity - law, medicine, engineering, etc. - there will be people who are pre-eminent in their field. In my field of law, I know there are academics who can comment on the law in a much more penetrating and insightful way than I can, and so I read their articles and learn from them. Such people have a gift for what they do (even if they don't know or acknowledge that it's a gift). God gives various gifts. To some in the Church , God gives such gifts of insight and discernment that they can help us to understand things better. If we are reading scripture, how can we, in all humility, think that our own understanding is as good as understanding gets? Ought we not to accept - and be thankful to God - that He has inspired others to guide us just as the Holy Spirit moved Apostle Philip to guide the Ethiopian? Of course, we pray to the Holy Spirit for understanding. But might not the Holy Spirit have also given us guides that He has inspired? It's as if He were saying, 'you have prayed for inspiration - turn to those whom I have inspired already'. I hope we have found some common ground now, and that this thread can be continued with the understanding that there is wisdom which God has provided which we can share.