What is a 'strict fast'?

[Janice Dietrich]

What exactly does it mean when the calendar calls for a "strict fast"?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

What exactly does it mean when the calendar calls for a "strict fast"?

This means no meat, no dairy, no [olive] oil.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

This means no meat, no dairy, no [olive] oil.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Father, are other oils allowed? What can I use as a substitute for oil in a vegan recipe that I usually cook with oil, please?

[Kris]

Canon 69 of the Holy Apostles designates that any hierarch or priest or deacon or subdeacon or reader or chanter who does not fast during Great Lent and Wednesday and Friday is to be deposed. If a layperson does not fast during these times (unless he cannot fast on account of bodily illness), he is to be excommunicated. Do you see how the Apostles numbered the Wednesday and Friday fast together with the fast of Great Lent? Therefore, just as the fast of Great Lent consists in the eating of dry foods, namely, to eat but once a day, at the ninth hour, without consuming oil or wine, likewise, the fast of Wednesday and Friday is to be conducted in the exact same manner. St. Epiphanios also says: "We fast on Wednesday and Friday until the ninth hour." Likewise, Philostorgios says that the fast of Wednesday and Friday does not consist in the abstention from meat, but it designates that one is not to eat any food until the evening. St. Benedict (Canon 41) also designates that the fast of Wednesday and Friday is until the ninth hour. And Balsamon forbids the consumption of shellfish on Wednesday and Friday just as during Great Lent.....

St. Nikodemos the Hagorite on Fasting on Wedesdays and Fridays (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/exo_fasting.aspx)

So strict fasting means eating nothing until the ninth hour (3pm), and then a single meal which may contain no meat, dairy, eggs, shellfish, oil or wine.

The norm, however, is what Fr. Raphael listed.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Father, are other oils allowed? What can I use as a substitute for oil in a vegan recipe that I usually cook with oil, please?

By common usage many will substitute another kind of oil- vegetable, canola, etc- for olive oil.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Janice Dietrich]

I have never been on a forum before!Iwas referring to the 3 days in the year that specifically refer to"strict fasting":I think there are only 3 such days:the day before the Nativity,the day before Teophany and one more.It seemed to me all the responses only answered the question,what is fasting?Our calendar uses the exact words"strict fasting"very rarely...so it seems to me it must mean something besides the regular Wed.andFri. fasts etc.

St. Nikodemos the Hagorite on Fasting on Wedesdays and Fridays (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/exo_fasting.aspx)

So strict fasting means eating nothing until the ninth hour (3pm), and then a single meal which may contain no meat, dairy, eggs, shellfish, oil or wine.

The norm, however, is what Fr. Raphael listed.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I have never been on a forum before!Iwas referring to the 3 days in the year that specifically refer to"strict fasting":I think there are only 3 such days:the day before the Nativity,the day before Theophany and one more.It seemed to me all the responses only answered the question,what is fasting?Our calendar uses the exact words"strict fasting"very rarely...so it seems to me it must mean something besides the regular Wed.andFri. fasts etc.

The most complete description of the fasting rules for these various eves is found in the Bulgakov Handbook (http://www.transfigcathedral.org/faith/Bulgakov/index.shtml). (look under Jan 5, Dec 24 & Great & Holy Saturday).

The best way to make a sensible rule of this is on the eve to refrain from all eating before the Vesperal Liturgy of St Basil (as one would normally do before any Liturgy); then eat according to the rules of a strict fast day afterwards.

The above however only applies to when the eve falls on a weekday. If the eve falls on a Saturday or Sunday as it did for Nativity this year on the Old Calendar then,after the Liturgy, one would eat food with oil allowed.

Note that on Holy Saturday one may eat food according to the rules of a strict fast day after the Vesperal Liturgy of St Basil is complete.

A little more detailed explanation: In the books one reads of various descriptions of fasting for these eves which amount to total abstention from food & drink. However a basic liturgical principle is that a total abstention from food would be completed once there had been the Liturgy or better once one had received the Eucharist.

Thus in real terms the total abstention for Holy Saturday would only last until the Vesperal Liturgy is complete. For example in contemporary practice bread & wine (note the oil is left out at this blessing) are blessed at the end of this Liturgy 'for the sustenance of the faithful'.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mary James]

What exactly does it mean when the calendar calls for a "strict fast"?

I've been told that strict fast means to eat only dry foods, very little liquids, and to increase prayers and silence.

[Nina]

I've been told that strict fast means to eat only dry foods, very little liquids, and to increase prayers and silence.

Maria, please can you specify what the dry food is? Bread only?

Liquids. That is strict for those who like water or need water. For those pushing themselves to drink water is not so difficult (although during fasting temptations can come into many forms). A priest who suffered from his kidneys told me once that fasting from water on Sunday morning while celebrating Liturgy and especially on hot days was so difficult. But thank God he managed it with God's grace.

[Andreas Moran]

At the monastery here, a strict fast means complete abstinence, as on Holy Friday, for example. In practice, this is only observed until late afternoon; dry bread, nuts and dried fruit are taken by most about 4pm.

[Nina]

If dried food means nuts and dried fruit I am all for it! Actually some of the favorite food/snacks my grandmother made were a combination (rolls) of dried fruit and nuts. My favorite is dried figs and walnuts mmmmm - no need to know how to make the rolls (I do not know -although I regret not learning it) just chew at the same time a dried fig and a walnut - one of the best flavor combination. Before some holiday last year at the local Whole Foods they were selling rolls of dried fruit and nuts like my grandmother made them. The price was ridiculously exuberant and I think justified with the classification of these rolls as gourmet food.

I thought dried food meant just some dried stale bread dipped in some drops of water. Or just bread. I know my grandmother sometimes dipped bread in coffee (Greek coffee - espresso) , or wine but I never asked her if she did that for strict fast, or not. Oh and another favorite snack fresh European style bread with walnut.

Is Halva classified as dried food also?

Does it classify as dried food if you eat bread and honey only?

And this brings me to a favorite Lenten recipe a slice of bread with some honey spread on top of it and I place some nuts on top of the honey. I fail to fast though.

Is it still fast if you like that food actually? For me fasting would be to eat pig meat, since I can not stand it ewww.

[Michael Stickles]

If by "dry foods" you mean "dry eating" or "xerophagy", I found this definition on the OCA website's page on fasting (http://www.oca.org/OCFasting.asp?SID=2):


... xerophagy is prescribed. Literally this means 'dry eating'. Strictly interpreted, it signifies that we may eat only vegetables cooked with water and salt, and also such things as fruit, nuts, bread and honey. In practice, octopus and shell-fish are also allowed on days of xerophagy; likewise vegetable margarine and corn or other vegetable oil, not made from olives. But the following categories of food are definitely excluded:

- meat;
- animal products (cheese, milk, butter, eggs, lard, drippings);
- fish (i.e., fish with backbones);
- oil (i.e., olive oil) and wine (i.e., all alcoholic drinks).


Mike

[Nina]

Mike :) thank you. I know about xerophagy, but I was interested to know what Maria James meant by dry foods. I would like to know about the tradition she knows (which may very well be the same as xerophagy - however let see).

[Andreas Moran]

Halva is dry food and is fasting. It's as popular in Russia as it is in Greece. In fact, Lydia didn't know they had it in Greece.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

If by "dry foods" you mean "dry eating" or "xerophagy", I found this definition on the OCA website's page on fasting (http://www.oca.org/OCFasting.asp?SID=2):

... xerophagy is prescribed. Literally this means 'dry eating'. Strictly interpreted, it signifies that we may eat only vegetables cooked with water and salt, and also such things as fruit, nuts, bread and honey. In practice, octopus and shell-fish are also allowed on days of xerophagy; likewise vegetable margarine and corn or other vegetable oil, not made from olives. But the following categories of food are definitely excluded:

- meat;
- animal products (cheese, milk, butter, eggs, lard, drippings);
- fish (i.e., fish with backbones);
- oil (i.e., olive oil) and wine (i.e., all alcoholic drinks).

Mike

This is correct. But what's important to keep in mind is that 'dry eating' is a particular application or way of following the strict fast which very few, even monastics, follow.

For the vast majority of the faithful including most monastics on a strict fast day there is prepared and cooked food. What makes it strict is that it does not include meat, dairy or oil products.

The time of the year one is most likely to see 'dry eating' practiced is during the first week of Great Lent. Many though- again in many monasteries also- only do this for the first three days until the Pre-sanctified Liturgy is complete. After this there is commonly a prepared meal consisting of strict fast food.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mary James]

Maria, please can you specify what the dry food is? Bread only?

Liquids. That is strict for those who like water or need water. For those pushing themselves to drink water is not so difficult (although during fasting temptations can come into many forms). A priest who suffered from his kidneys told me once that fasting from water on Sunday morning while celebrating Liturgy and especially on hot days was so difficult. But thank God he managed it with God's grace.

Dry foods are vegetables, dried fruits, bread without oil, nuts etc.

Haha, like you I have to push myself to get enough liquids in the first place. However, when those strict fast days come where we have to watch our intake our water (because we can take delight in it and become full from it) I tend to get a great temptation to drink on those days, when I don't even drink in the first place. :S weird!

Thank God that this Priest you told me about was able to pull out fasting for celebrating Liturgy. It must have been really difficult for him and his efforts will not go to waste.

[Michael Stickles]

I know about xerophagy, but I was interested to know what Maria James meant by dry foods. I would like to know about the tradition she knows (which may very well be the same as xerophagy - however let see).

I was curious too, which is why I posted that -- sort of a "this is what that sounds like, is that what you meant?". Looking back at it, I don't think I was very clear on that (the dangers of posting just before midnight). From what you said, Maria, it sounds at least very similar to xerophagy.

The OCA fasting page noted that xerophagy is prescribed on all weekdays during Great Lent up through Holy Wednesday, but there are plenty of statements in there like "It should be added at once that in practice today these rules are commonly relaxed" and "In present-day practice, even for those in good health, the full strictness of the fast is usually mitigated". I didn't realize this was also true for monastics until reading Fr Raphael's post.

As for the days specifically called "strict fast" days, I had asked about that myself some time back, and what I was told was that it was to make clear that they were to be kept as strictly as the Wednesday and Friday fasts, even if they fell on a weekend (can't remember who told me that, though). The GOARCH website calendar (http://www.goarch.org/en/Chapel/calendar.asp) lists most of the regular Wednesday and Friday fasts as "strict fasts".

Mike

[Andreas Moran]

For the vast majority of the faithful including most monastics on a strict fast day there is prepared and cooked food.

Essex must be more srict than I realised. Those who can (so, not diabetics) observe total abstinence during the first two days of Lent and only take any food and drink after the pre-sanctified liturgy on the first Wednesday. There is a total fast on Holy Friday until 4pm and then only a handful of dried fruit and nuts and water or herb tea.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Mike and others,

It would appear (from your quotation; I've not myself looked at the text) that the OCA's article is a touch misleading. Xerophagy itself means eating only dried foods, which can (by some 'loose' interpretations) also be taken to mean raw / uncooked vegetables; but which more strictly means things like nuts, bread, seeds, etc. The text is quite wrong to associate the general lenten fasting practices with xerophagy. The former is not a lax or lessened interpretation of the latter, as the latter is in some contexts still prescribed. The text seems to be making a few wrong bends in tracing out the history of the term.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Kris]

The introduction to Met. Kallistos' The Lenten Triodion has a good explanation of these matters.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I have never been on a forum before!Iwas referring to the 3 days in the year that specifically refer to"strict fasting":I think there are only 3 such days:the day before the Nativity,the day before Teophany and one more.It seemed to me all the responses only answered the question,what is fasting?Our calendar uses the exact words"strict fasting"very rarely...so it seems to me it must mean something besides the regular Wed.andFri. fasts etc.

Janice, on Clean Monday, the first day of Lent, and a very strict fast day - some people don't eat anything at all... just water.

Most eat shellfish, dried bean soup, octopus, etc. but without oil. All the churches and various societies i.e. the mountain climbing society that I belong to (not that I have actually climbed any mountains........) have their own celebrations on this day where they serve oil less bean soup with lots of veggies in it and lots and lots of wine. People eat unleavened bread on this day (the bakeries supply this because no-one makes their own any more) and pickled vegetable (not the delicious Australian ones but those that have been pickled in brine only ).Taramosalata (caviar) made without eggs and halva are also traditional foods on this day.

People dance and sing on this day and it is also traditional to fly kites. Most of the town councils in Greece have now established Clean Monday as the day in which they supply all the food and music set up in parks or forests, so that people can have a good time.

I don't know whether this is in the spirit of what this day is supposed to mean, but this day has become one of the happiest days of the year. Lent is a special time and this starting day makes our hearts and bodies aware of the 40 days in front of us.

On Good Friday, cooking is forbidden. Nor are we permitted to sit at the table and eat as a family. This is a day of mourning and whoever wants to eat, might have a piece of bread, or a fruit or a vegetable. Nothing else. He or she also has to eat it standing up......

Effie

[Michael Stickles]

Dear Mike and others,

It would appear (from your quotation; I've not myself looked at the text) that the OCA's article is a touch misleading. Xerophagy itself means eating only dried foods, which can (by some 'loose' interpretations) also be taken to mean raw / uncooked vegetables; but which more strictly means things like nuts, bread, seeds, etc. The text is quite wrong to associate the general lenten fasting practices with xerophagy. The former is not a lax or lessened interpretation of the latter, as the latter is in some contexts still prescribed. The text seems to be making a few wrong bends in tracing out the history of the term.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

As Spock would say, "fascinating". The OCA article notes its source:


Concerning the rules of fasting during the Great Lent, we quote the article, "The Rules of Fasting", contained in The Lenten Triodion, translated by Mother Mary and Archimandrite Kallistos (Ware), Faber & Faber, London, 1978, pp. 35-37

It would be interesting to compare other sources on the origin and meaning of the term, and the contexts for application. It wouldn't surprise me if what we found was in line with the first paragraph quoted by the OCA's page:


What precisely do the rules of fasting demand? Neither in ancient nor in modern times has there ever been exact uniformity ...

I had never seen the term used before outside of the OCA page, so that's all I had to go on. I tried looking it up in some online dictionaries, but none of them fully agreed with one another on what it meant or when it was applied (one even defined it as eating "dry meats", though, given that this was from the 1828 Noah Webster dictionary, perhaps it meant the older usage of "meat" which refers to food in general).

Mike

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Essex must be more srict than I realised. Those who can (so, not diabetics) observe total abstinence during the first two days of Lent and only take any food and drink after the pre-sanctified liturgy on the first Wednesday. There is a total fast on Holy Friday until 4pm and then only a handful of dried fruit and nuts and water or herb tea.

Yes this actually is a very common practice in our monasteries.

However after the Wednesday Pre-sanctified in the first week and through the rest of Great Lent up until Holy Week (different monasteries follow the effort of total abstinence from different days in Holy Week) most monasteries do have prepared food according to the regime found on the daily calendar.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

Father Matthew is right that xerophagia is not exactly what is described by the OCA paragraph.

Effie, in general during the three clean days people retreat in prayer and meditating about God, Lent, repentance etc. but where you are in general people can't find enough excuses to have a party (music, good company, dance and food). :) I am not judging them since I am like them as well. However, we try.

Regarding practices for monastics: Since we are on the subject, I know people who do not eat the first three days of Lent (the three Clean days). Of course they had the blessing of their spiritual father. But these people are not all monastics. They are mothers, fathers who actually go to work and cook for their families during these days, they are students who have to attend classes, or have exams and so on. They told me that the most difficult part of it was resisting the temptation to drink water. Although some do not have the blessing to keep the three clean days without water. I always marvel at these people who keep the strictest fast for the three first days of Lent (they start consuming food and liquid after the Presanctified Liturgy on Wednesday). I belong to the other category - those who can't keep the first three days without food. However I think that in general such practices are there for all of us to use if we can and if we have a blessing from the spiritual father. It does not matter if we live in the world, or if we live in a monastery. There were Empresses and Emperors (who became saints) who were married and not monastics, that lived in the midst of luxury and servants, and power and excess, and food and parties, however a good number of them became so detached that even in the midst of such environment and with the perfect excuse of being such high powers and married, they could still maintain humility and practice things which for us today may classify 'for monastics only'. One Empress wore a goat's wool shirt under her garments, another Emperor fastened chains underneath his clothes and so on. Not all of us have the temptations they had but I brought them as an example that we non-monastics can do things too if we can and if we have blessing. Another example are the wars when all people had the hardships and lack of food.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Father Matthew is right that xerophagia is not exactly what is described by the OCA paragraph.

Effie, in general during the three clean days people retreat in prayer and meditating about God, Lent, repentance etc. but where you are in general people can't find enough excuses to have a party (music, good company, dance and food). :) I am not judging them since I am like them as well. However, we try.

.

You are absolutely right Nina. What a complicated people we are. We give 100% to whatever we do. And yes, we consider friends and relatives and those around us to be of prime importance in our lives.

Two of the loveliest things I have experienced in my life take place in this wonderful country. The first is Good Friday, when the church bells toll the sombre sound that is used when someone has died and all day people go in and out of all our churches, paying homage to the dead Christ by passing under His epitaphio. It is something that is truly amazing to see. Some people are in their "best clothes", others are in their work clothes. Everything is very personal. The second wonderful thing I will never forget : after the Resurrection service on Saturday night, the sight of all the people with their lit candles taking the good news of the Ressurection home with them. Thousands of small lights slowly weaving through the darkness as people walk towards their homes to light their vigil lamps with Christ's light and to sit down to their first meal (with meat) after Lent.

[Misha]

adopting a vegetarian diet during the great lent is something that diminuishes the pain in the world.(Homily of st.Basil on fasting).
from my point of view great lent can be a period for detoxification,both physically and mentally.
fasting (not only from certain foods but also from bad habbits )can be also a participation to the suffering and the hunger of those who have no place to sleep,have no food to eat,have no clean water to drink,have no medicines to heal.

i wish to all of you GOOD STADIUM !!!(a cypriot wish for great lent)

[Effie Ganatsios]

Fasting from water etc.

I believe that everyone should consult their spiritual father or their priest concerning their fasting habits. Fasting can sometimes be unwise when a health problem exists. Your priest will tell you what you should and should not do.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

adopting a vegetarian diet during the great lent is something that diminuishes the pain in the world.(Homily of st.Basil on fasting).
from my point of view great lent can be a period for detoxification,both physically and mentally.
fasting (not only from certain foods but also from bad habbits )can be also a participation to the suffering and the hunger of those who have no place to sleep,have no food to eat,have no clean water to drink,have no medicines to heal.

i wish to all of you GOOD STADIUM !!!(a cypriot wish for great lent)

Good stadium to you too Misha.

Misha, don't you say Kalo Sarakosti like we do?

And you are right when you say that lent is a period for detoxification both from food and from other bad habits.

It is not about food really. I don't remember which of the fathers said that it is much better to eat meat than fast and indulge in other bad habits i.e. gossiping, being envious of others, etc. We have a saying here Misha - you probably have the same saying in Cyprus - during Lent some people don't consume oil but they do consume the oil maker.

Then trone ladi alla trone ton lada.

It's good that we remember what Lent is really about.

Effie

[Misha]

Effie,i m not from Cyprus.I m from mainland Greece.I live in Athens.

for fasting: in our days there s no real need to eat meat.our body craves to eat healthy and meat is not among the healthy foods.
I know many people who have been healed from chronic ailments,just by changing their diet.
Human body is not made to consume fleshes.In Eden God's commandment was to eat fruits and vegetables.
Prolonged strict fast (only juices,water or fruits) needs an experienced physician's advice.Generally there's no danger but if someone has severe health issues to deal with,then he needs a specialist's support.

[Nina]

Fasting from water etc.

I believe that everyone should consult their spiritual father or their priest concerning their fasting habits. Fasting can sometimes be unwise when a health problem exists. Your priest will tell you what you should and should not do.

Effie

Effie

Not only we believe this, but it is told by the Holy Fathers. A person should obey to the spiritual father in fasting too, because obedience saves. The people I mentioned that fasted from water during the three Clean Days had the blessing of their spiritual father. And nothing wrong happened to them.

[Robin Elizabeth]

Someone mention that you can eat honey during the fast. Just out of curiosity, why would honey be allowed, since it's technically an animal product? I know many vegans don't eat it for that very reason.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Effie,i m not from Cyprus.I m from mainland Greece.I live in Athens.

for fasting: in our days there s no real need to eat meat.our body craves to eat healthy and meat is not among the healthy foods.
I know many people who have been healed from chronic ailments,just by changing their diet.
Human body is not made to consume fleshes.In Eden God's commandment was to eat fruits and vegetables.
Prolonged strict fast (only juices,water or fruits) needs an experienced physician's advice.Generally there's no danger but if someone has severe health issues to deal with,then he needs a specialist's support.

Sorry, Misha. I didn't notice that you live in Greece.

Fasting on just water and fruit juices has indeed healed many illnesses, and it is safe as long as it is done under the supervision of a doctor. A water fast of a couple of days is OK without a doctor if you are healthy. And you are right in all that you say. Some people fast once a week drinking only water but this is for health reasons, not religious reasons.

My husband told me that when he was young his family fasted every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. No animal products and no oil. He said that everyone did this back then, but times have changed unfortunately. We spent Clean Monday in Ioannina and ate seafood but during our trip we saw that many restaurants that served grilled meat were full of customers, so not everyone fasts - not even on Clean Monday.

Effie

[Herman Blaydoe]

Someone mention that you can eat honey during the fast. Just out of curiosity, why would honey be allowed, since it's technically an animal product? I know many vegans don't eat it for that very reason.

Probably because bees are not considered an "animal", but an insect.

[Misha]

Vegans consider honey as a product of bees' maltreatment,so they don't eat it.

But honey is permitted during orthodox fasting periods.St John the Forerunner ,who was a strict ascete,ate honey from wild bees in the desert of Judea.

we also use bee's wax to make candles for our churches.

Generally speaking bees' product are invaluable for the mankind.

Honey,pollen,propolis,royal jelly can act as natural remedies for various health problems.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I posted some pictures of Ioannina and Metsovo for anyone interested. We travelled there on Clean Monday with friends and had our fasting meal of seafood there. I also posted a picture of an almond tree in bloom and a poem about spring by Robert Frost. The weather has been absolutely glorious and everything has blossomed. I should have taken a photo of my daffodils - remember the poem most of us learnt in school???

Effie

[Olga]

I posted some pictures of Ioannina and Metsovo for anyone interested. We travelled there on Clean Monday with friends and had our fasting meal of seafood there. I also posted a picture of an almond tree in bloom and a poem about spring by Robert Frost. The weather has been absolutely glorious and everything has blossomed. I should have taken a photo of my daffodils - remember the poem most of us learnt in school???

Effie

I know this is a bit off-topic, but the weather here has been HOT! Since March 1, the daytime maximum temperature has been above 35C (yesterday and today hit 40C), and will continue to be so to at least Tuesday. Even for dry old southern Australia, it's been a weird start to Great Lent.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I know Olga. Poor you. My mum telephoned yesterday and told me. What with the water shortage and everything, you can become a little dispirited but Australia is still a wonderful place to live, so keep your spirits high. Just think of petrol prices and heating oil and how up here we need the central heating on 8 months of the year.

Now, haven't I cheered you up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chronia Polla and Καλη Σαρακοστι.............. my first opportunity to wish you well for Lent.

Effie

[Olga]

Thanks, Effie. I now ride a bicycle to work instead of driving, as much to lose some "pud" as to save on petrol and parking fees. Considering the heat, I'm not doing too badly. Somehow I've been able to sleep OK.

Ah, Metsovo! Beautiful one day, freezing the next. The only Greek place I visited where the hotel had abundant hot water and lovely central heating.

Back to the topic thread: Could you elaborate on the Clean Monday seafood meal? Is it a northern Greek custom, or throughout Greece? What is traditionally eaten?

[Andreas Moran]

We spent Clean Monday in Ioannina and ate seafood but during our trip we saw that many restaurants that served grilled meat were full of customers, so not everyone fasts - not even on Clean Monday.

Two years ago, Lydia and I were on holiday based in Sivota and we drove through Ioannina and Metsovo on our way to Meteora. It was the Dormition fast but even in Kalambaka where we stayed two nights the tavernas were full of people eating meat. The waiter at the taverna we chose looked rather bemused when I told him we were looking for something 'nistisimo' on the menu!

[Effie Ganatsios]

Two years ago, Lydia and I were on holiday based in Sivota and we drove through Ioannina and Metsovo on our way to Meteora. It was the Dormition fast but even in Kalambaka where we stayed two nights the tavernas were full of people eating meat. The waiter at the taverna we chose looked rather bemused when I told him we were looking for something 'nistisimo' on the menu!

Andreas, we had lunch at a lakeside restaurant in Ioannina named "Limni". They had a special menu for Clean Monday and the place was packed, even though the owners were also using the open air summer part of the restaurant that was across the road and next to the lake. They had enclosed it with glass panels. People were waiting on the road outside for seats. The food was absolutely delicious and the service terrific. 1st class all the way. I wrote down the name for future use but everyone laughed when I did it because the name Limni means "lake" of course.

Unfortunately, as you yourself experienced, a lot of people just don't care anymore. It's such a shame, but I believe that the church itself is to some degree to blame for this, although I suppose the main reason is this savage growth of commercialism all over the world. The TV is good for some things (not much) but I blame it for this change in lifestyle the last 20-30 years here. Our new Archbishop has issued a statement stating that priests are not permitted to ask for money for any and all services they provide, as they have been doing up to now. They are public servants and receive a very good monthly salary. This money hungry behaviour is the reason there is a good deal of cynicism here concerning priests. It's very sad.

I've been telling my husband about some of the posts the converts to the Orthodox religion have been posting on this forum. He is very impressed and told me that converts are sometimes/often better Orthodox Christians than we are. He also told me about fasting every Monday, Wednesday and Friday when he was growing up - I mentioned this in another post. I sometimes feel deeply ashamed when reading some of the posts, knowing that I don't do the things mentioned in these discussions i.e. we only fast from oil some days during Lent. The first and last week, especially Good Friday, are strict fast days but we don't fast from oil the whole 40 days. I did not know that these strict fasts were usual for all Greeks up until about 40 years ago. Converts have put most of us to shame.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thanks, Effie. I now ride a bicycle to work instead of driving, as much to lose some "pud" as to save on petrol and parking fees. Considering the heat, I'm not doing too badly. Somehow I've been able to sleep OK.

Ah, Metsovo! Beautiful one day, freezing the next. The only Greek place I visited where the hotel had abundant hot water and lovely central heating.

Back to the topic thread: Could you elaborate on the Clean Monday seafood meal? Is it a northern Greek custom, or throughout Greece? What is traditionally eaten?

Olga, the traditional food for Clean Monday is all seafood - octopus (a friend had grilled octopus and I tried it - heaven!!), mussels, oysters, etc., fasoulada (bean soup without olive oil), olives, pickled vegetables, halva, unleavened bread (which by the way costs up to 3E each, I shudder to think what their profits are...), and salads and fruit. I forgot vegetables, steamed or sauteed in a little water. And lots of wine!!! I didn't have any because I don't drink commercial wine but I did have a Souroti mineral water which I love.

Going to Ioannina we saw lots of people during the whole journey who were having picnics and flying kites - as you know flying kites on Clean Monday is also a tradition throughout Greece.

I don't think I've forgotten anything. I just remembered taramosalata, what would Lent be without fish roe pate????

Effie

[Nicolaj]

On Clean Monday we eat nothing. Just water or tea without anything.

No delicious meals, with seafood and wine.

Just fasting.

In Christ, Nicolaj

[Effie Ganatsios]

As I said Nicolaj, we love our traditions, but how Orthodox are they? I have the sneaking feeling that they aren't very.
This morning as I was listening to the Church of Greece radio station, which is really good, I heard Lent described as joyous grief in Greece, because of our character and our lifestyle. What can this mean? I've been thinking of these words ever since.

Effie

[Misha]

Nikolaj,you re right but unfortunately Clean Monday ,throughout Greece is almost a carnival's day.
it's a day for flying kites,for dancing,eating seafood and drinking wine with the whole family.also it's a school free day and kids have fun.
Fish taverns here are full of people this day.
i don't judge anyone,this is how the custom has been developed during the ages.
for those who keep a closer contact with the Church,Clean Monday is somehow different.

[Nicolaj]

Yes I think it is so. Here in Vienna I know some brethren of the Greek community and some do fast proper and some make a feast out of it. Like they do fast in Greece.

I think this has also to do with the religion of the future, if they don't really believe why should they fast at all.

In Christ, Nicolaj

[Nina]

As I said Nicolaj, we love our traditions, but how Orthodox are they? I have the sneaking feeling that they aren't very.
This morning as I was listening to the Church of Greece radio station, which is really good, I heard Lent described as joyous grief in Greece, because of our character and our lifestyle. What can this mean? I've been thinking of these words ever since.

Effie

Effie: 'Joyous grief' as in harmolipi? If you heard that word it is indeed Orthodox dear Effie. It is used to point out the sad because it is a time of repentance for our sins and joy at the same time since Christ Resurrected for us. Harmolipi is actually translated mainly as 'bittersweetness' and we use that same word during the Holy Week also before Pascha.

To all: Many people there just want to have fun, it is the culture! But us judging them (and generalizing) is making us eat their flesh (like Fathers say) while we are fasting. I know many Greek people who eat nothing during the 3 Clean Days, they do not even drink water, or anything else. And they are not monastics, and have work, family, children, schools and so on.

Andreas: Maybe the taverna owner reacted that way because in that area it is not usual to ask for nistisima (lenten food). There is plenty and they view it like showing off if one asks for lenten food (here I do not ask for Lenten food especially when I am traveling - they do not know what that means). Since there you either ask for horta (salad with steamed greens and lemon), or seafood, taramosalata, or just village salad without cheese. Plus you being in the beautiful Sivota by the Ionian coast which has so much seafood (!) it will be weird to ask for something nistisimo.

Effie: Thank you so much for the pictures from Ioannina! Love that area! Did you know that Metropolitan Hierotheos of Naupaktos was born there? Also Elder Paisios lived in Epirus after Farasa. :) I believe the lake (limni) you are referring to is that of Kira Frosini's? It just reminded me of Ali Pasha and how much that area has suffered under the Ottomans. There are many Neomartyrs from that area also, the most well-known is St. George the Neomartyr:


St George of Ioannina's story is poignant. The executioner had George on his knees and was repeatedly taking swings at his neck with his sword. At the same time, the Priest in the local Church was repeating the Litia for Vespers and was naming out the Saints, one by one.
A boy at the door of the Church was observing what was going on outside. As George's head came off, the boy cried out to the Priest at the Iconostasis, "George is dead!"
The Priest then finished his prayer with "and of the New Martyr, St George of Ioannina, and all Thy Saints, Amen!"
Link (http://www.unicorne.org/Orthodoxy/articles/articles_a/kozaks.htm)

[Paul Cowan]

Vegans consider honey as a product of bees' maltreatment,so they don't eat it.



This is the funniest thing I have ever heard. How in the world can humans maltreat a bee? Do we stand over them with little whips and make them fly how many miles to collect their pollen with tiny little cameras strapped to their backs to make sure they are on the right path and not lolligagging around? What regulatory agency does this? Good grief, bees will produce honey even if there were not humans on the planet. It is what they do. They have done it for millenias. I can see it now, bee ranchers with little spurs on their boots. *** along little bee. We will have to set up a bee FDA and regulatory agency. It will only be allowed for bees to visit certain colored flowers during the year. Since butterflies are also using the same flowers as the bees for their pollen collection an agreement will have to be worked out to alternate days on when certain colored flowers may be harvested by each. However since the caterpillar cocoons are not penetrable for Congressional debate until in late Spring, all fall and winter bee activities must be done under strict economic sanctions.

Then we will have to deal with the bee unions. No bee shall fly more than .5 miles per day nor carry more than .000000125 grams of pollen per leg sac within an 8 hour shift. Any violations will be directed to the bee mafia who will raise the weight of pollen collection to join the bee union and the mafia hit bees will be sent out to the sweatshops to keep the worker bees in line. There will be strict regulations on dimensions of the honeycomb as well. No comb shall have less and no more than 6 sides. Any discrepencies will be bulldozed at the expence of future hive construction projects. Any comb less than 3.5 cm must get the approval of the queen's aids who will be assisting in the depositing of the larvae. Combs larger than 3.5 cm must first be approved through the dept of bee nutrition. Obese bees are simply not acceptable to the proper running of the hive. Bee genetics is still a young science but an ever controversial topic among the faster suburban bees. Since now child care on the worksite will be an issue with the soldier bees present we will need a bee government to regulate the hazardous work conditions around preborns. But since preborns are not really bees, only a prebee they have no legal rights. The free choice bees will have to be kept separate from the prolife bees otherwise their might be hive bombings and the humans will have to get involved seeing all this on their little cameras, not that they were given permission to install illegal surveillance cameras in the hive, and tell them to act civilized and continue producing honey otherwise the humans will come up with a synthetic honey and drive the price of honey down making it more difficult for bees to make a living so they might have to change jobs and work as silk worms.

Now there is a creature that is being maltreated. Wake up when you want, eat all the best greenery with no end in sight, spit out a little silk every now and again, sleep and eat some more. Obviously silk worms are not Orthodox or they would be out of work real quick. Who ever heard of a silk worm that fasted?



Yes, it is late, I am tired I am going to bed now.
Paul

[Misha]

i don't agree with this view,even if my diet is almost vegetarian,but here is what they claim:
http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

[Effie Ganatsios]

Effie: 'Joyous grief' as in harmolipi? If you heard that word it is indeed Orthodox dear Effie. It is used to point out the sad because it is a time of repentance for our sins and joy at the same time since Christ Resurrected for us. Harmolipi is actually translated mainly as 'bittersweetness' and we use that same word during the Holy Week also before Pascha.

To all: Many people there just want to have fun, it is the culture! But us judging them (and generalizing) is making us eat their flesh (like Fathers say) while we are fasting. I know many Greek people who eat nothing during the 3 Clean Days, they do not even drink water, or anything else. And they are not monastics, and have work, family, children, schools and so on.


Effie: Thank you so much for the pictures from Ioannina! Love that area! Did you know that Metropolitan Hierotheos of Naupaktos was born there? Also Elder Paisios lived in Epirus after Farasa. :) I believe the lake (limni) you are referring to is that of Kira Frosini's? It just reminded me of Ali Pasha and how much that area has suffered under the Ottomans. There are many Neomartyrs from that area also, the most well-known is St. George the Neomartyr:
Link (http://www.unicorne.org/Orthodoxy/articles/articles_a/kozaks.htm)

Yes, that was the word, Olga. harmolipi - chara and lipi - joy and sadness.
Now that you explained what it means in Orthodox terms, I remembered that I had read that this is what we feel during Lent. Olga, you're making me so lazy...... I don't need to google anything really when you are so forthcoming with correct information (I would insert a smiley here but they seem to have disappeared!!).

As for methods of fasting : I greatly admire those who strive to live their lives in the world as close to the monastic life as possible. But I also love our Orthodox religion because it dives right down deep to the heart of a person and really leaves the responsibility of all actions - including fasting - to be between that person and his spiritual father.


Ioannina : Yes, Olga. The lake is the one that Kira Frosini was drowned in. Christians in this area, as in all areas under Ottoman occupation, suffered greatly. The little island where the Pasha lived can be partially seen in the lower left of the picture I posted. Elder Paisios lived in Konitsa, if I am not mistaken. It is on the main road between Ioannina and the northern part of the Pindus mountains. We no longer use this road with its breathtaking scenery, since parts of the Ignatia Odos are now usable.

I have read some of Metropolitan Hierotheos' works but didn't know he was from Ioannina.

Effie

[Olga]

Dear Misha

With respect, the article you linked to is so full of errors and partonising statements, it's laughable. My late father kept bees for many years, and the only "intervention" was to provide them with wooden hives for their accommodation, and to harvest the honey at regular intervals. Bees will produce honey no matter what, be it in a wall cavity, a tree, or in a wooden hive especially made for them.

It would take far too long to counter every erroneous claim in this article, suffice to say that it is a sad example of alarmist extremism masquerading as noble humanity.

[Olga]

Umm, Effie, Nina should be congratulated, not me!

[Effie Ganatsios]

Umm, Effie, Nina should be congratulated, not me!

She is wonderful, isn't she?. She provides so much information, just as you do, Olga. OK, both of you then.

It's amazing the things we all learn here. God truly blessed Father Steenberg when he created this forum. We are all benefiting, especially when we disagree, because then we can re-examine our opinions and find truth which is often hidden.

[Misha]

Dear Olga ,i don't agree with the article.
i posted just for sharing a view which is very common in the vegan movement.
personally, i thank God for giving us the products of this small, blessed ,intelligent insect and i also thank bees for their generous offer .

[Andreas Moran]

Re: bees. My views about animals are known but we were given by God dominion over creatures and talk of cruelty to bees is silly. What's the next step - cruelty to plants??!

[Herman Blaydoe]

Re: bees. My views about animals are known but we were given by God dominion over creatures and talk of cruelty to bees is silly. What's the next step - cruelty to plants??!

Too late, you are sooo behind the times: PCAP (http://www.pcap.ws/)

Humans is the craziest people...

Oh and here is fun little song: Carrot Juice is Murder (http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/carrotju.htm)

[Andreas Moran]

Well . . . I don't murder the vegges: I just eat the corpses.

[Misha]

St Basil the Great in his homilies on fasting says that fasting is our return to Eden,where there wasn't slaugther houses,no blood ,no animal suffering.

elder Tichon of Mt Athos didn't kill even the fleas and bugs who drunk his blood.he ,also,protected many times the wild animals from the hunters who were looking for them around his small cell.

elder Silouan was crying for three days when he killed a fly .

"The Staretz was careful even about plants - he thought that to rough-handle them went against the teachings of grace...this pity...was linked in him with the most realistic approach to everything in the world. As a Christian he admitted that every living thing was created for man's benefit...Consider in his writings what the Staretz thought and felt about animals. On the one hand there is his really striking compassion for all creation, an example of which we find in his account of how he bewailed his own harshness in 'unnecessarily' killing a fly..He looked on animals and wild beasts...(whom) man should not become attached to, for one most love God with all one's mind, with all one's heart, with all one's strength - that is, absolutely forgetful of the earth."

[Kyprian Galbraith]

Well . . . I don't murder the vegges: I just eat the corpses.
When asked Thomas Merton replied "because cows scream louder than carrots" LOL ;)

[Effie Ganatsios]

St Basil the Great in his homilies on fasting says that fasting is our return to Eden,where there wasn't slaugther houses,no blood ,no animal suffering.

elder Tichon of Mt Athos didn't kill even the fleas and bugs who drunk his blood.he ,also,protected many times the wild animals from the hunters who were looking for them around his small cell.

elder Silouan was crying for three days when he killed a fly .

"The Staretz was careful even about plants - he thought that to rough-handle them went against the teachings of grace...this pity...was linked in him with the most realistic approach to everything in the world. As a Christian he admitted that every living thing was created for man's benefit...Consider in his writings what the Staretz thought and felt about animals. On the one hand there is his really striking compassion for all creation, an example of which we find in his account of how he bewailed his own harshness in 'unnecessarily' killing a fly..He looked on animals and wild beasts...(whom) man should not become attached to, for one most love God with all one's mind, with all one's heart, with all one's strength - that is, absolutely forgetful of the earth."

From what I have read, all holy men feel this way about animals, insects, and yes, even plants. Mother Gavrilia loved plants and used to talk to them. And I watched a Japanese experiment where instruments were installed in a greenhouse and communication between the plants was recorded on them. When people were around the plants were silent!!!!!!!!! I know, very hard to believe but these scientists were convinced that plants communicate with each other.

[Andreas Moran]

"Geoffrey."
"Yes, my dear."
"Have you ever thought why it is that we were blessed to be in this hanging basket on the south side of the house in nice fresh air and sunshine whilst those poor pansies in the basket round the corner are in shade all day and choked by fumes from the central heating vent?"
Putting down his newspaper, Geoffey replied, "Can't say I had given it much thought, my dear."
"But it seems so awfully unfair, don't you think?"
"I see what you mean but what can we say? I suppose that's the order of things, isn't it? And after all, there's nothing we can do, is there? But, you know, the other day, the study window was open and I overheard the male human saying that one day, there will be a new heaven and a new earth and everything will be perfect. So, I'm sure then that those pansies round the corner will be fine. Now, do be a darling and put the kettle on will you?"

[Nina]

From what I have read, all holy men feel this way about animals, insects, and yes, even plants. Mother Gavrilia loved plants and used to talk to them. And I watched a Japanese experiment where instruments were installed in a greenhouse and communication between the plants was recorded on them. When people were around the plants were silent!!!!!!!!! I know, very hard to believe but these scientists were convinced that plants communicate with each other.

My mom had many flowers and plants and she talked to them and caressed them like they were people when she would care for them. She gave her plants so much love and many died after she passed away, although my wonderful father was taking very good care for the plants. My mother used to play lots of chants and classical music and she said it made them happy and so lush. There was a beautiful plant and since she planted it she called it Nina's. When I would leave home my mom said the plant did not bloom afterwards. Before I was going home my mom would go to the plant and tell "Nina is coming!" and the plant would start flowering regardless the season. It was strange for me, but I knew how much mom loved her plants and how she was treating them: same like she treated humans - with love.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I wanted to ask whether some of the members of this forum fast from oil the whole 40 days of Lent?

I thought that every Saturday and Sunday throughout the year, olive oil can be used during fast periods except for
Megalo Sabbato/Great Saturday/Easter Saturday.

My priest told me this.

Effie

[Andreas Moran]

I have always understood that wine and oil are permitted on Saturdays and Sundays to signify that these are not days of fasting as weekdays are. IMHO, to say that wine and oil are not permitted on Sundays especially would be to offend against the observance of Sunday as the day of the Resurrection of our Lord. Wine and oil are permitted on Holy Thursday, and wine on Holy Saturday though I personally would not have wine and oil on these days.

[Nina]

I wanted to ask whether some of the members of this forum fast from oil the whole 40 days of Lent?
Effie

Oil is of course allowed on Sunday and Saturday. The fast calendar indicates that also, but again everything with the blessing of the spiritual father. Since the purpose of the fast is not to undermine its purpose. Fathers say that all things must be in discernment of the spiritual father so we do not have to break the fast altogether because of the strictness when we can not bear it because of an ailment, or illness. If by God's grace we have the abilities for a strict fast and the blessing of our spiritual father we should proceed.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I wanted to ask whether some of the members of this forum fast from oil the whole 40 days of Lent?

I thought that every Saturday and Sunday throughout the year, olive oil can be used during fast periods except for
Megalo Sabbato/Great Saturday/Easter Saturday.

My priest told me this.

Effie

Dear Effi,

According to the Church calendar, wine & oil are permitted on the Saturdays & Sundays of the first six weeks of Great Lent. They are also permitted on the day of the Great Canon (5th Thursday) and the days preceding and following- ie Wednesday, Thursday, Friday of the 5th Week.

Also they are permitted on special days such as the day after the Annunciation (ie the Synaxis of the Archangel Gabriel) as well as the feasts of the Finding of the Head of St John the Baptist and the Holy 40 Martyrs of Sevastia.

Fish, wine & oil are permitted on Annunciation and also Palm Sunday. In the Russian tradition caviar is served on Lazarus Saturday.

There are other rules for Holy Week but I suppose we can wait a bit to describe that!

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

PS: yes, it is correct that there is no oil on Great & Holy Saturday.

Wine however is allowed due to the rigour of the Saturday vesperal Liturgy. This is the only time that I know of that wheat (actually though we use little loaves or buns) & wine are blessed after the Liturgy.

The instruction in the Typikon, which is very interesting, is that you are to use the prayer used at the normal Litiya for blessing wheat, wine & oil, but leave out the word "oil" when doing the blessing.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Paul Cowan]

I wanted to ask whether some of the members of this forum fast from oil the whole 40 days of Lent?

I thought that every Saturday and Sunday throughout the year, olive oil can be used during fast periods except for
Megalo Sabbato/Great Saturday/Easter Saturday.

My priest told me this.

Effie

Hi Effie,

I have to. My brain has enough trouble remembering to fast on Wed and Fri. If I try to remember I can splurge on the weekends, I will do so during the week also. Besides, I don't drink so I typically just forget it is a weekend and never use the oil anyway.

Paul

[Nicolaj]

I don't have oil explicit. Though it happens when my wife does the 'cooking' on Saturday or Sunday she uses oil, but more as coincident.

Thanks Father Rafael for sharing this interesting facts!

Lent is going well this year and I am enjoying it very much! As always!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Nina]

I had to interrupt my fast since last night. :( I had a very bad flu virus that continued for days after Lent started and I guess I pushed myself very hard and thought I can manage it. But I ended up in the ER. There is nothing wrong with me, but they said I have to eat because the virus was depleting my energy and I can't fast at least for these days. :( So I started crying that I had to stop my fast. I felt like I was betraying God. Although what I do spiritually is so pathetic, my pride convinced me that it was so great what I was doing prior to that and I was betraying God by eating something. I also was upset at the bad flu virus that complicated things, since I have never had problems when fasting. But when I was so sad, someone who is very wise told me: "Nina, the purpose of fasting is to bring you towards God and not to God." And this spoke to my pride very well and it also cheered me up. May God give you all strength and may His grace keep you all during the reminder of Lent. And please pray for me the sinner, who stopped the fasting.

[Effie Ganatsios]

A couple of days ago I bought a bottle of Spirulina tablets.

"Spirulina contains unusually high amounts of protein, between 55 and 77% by dry weight, depending upon the source. It is a complete protein, containing all essential amino acids, though with reduced amounts of methionine, cysteine, and lysine, as compared to standard proteins such as that from meat, eggs, or milk. It is, however, superior to all standard plant protein, such as that from legumes.[4][5]"

Considering the above, Spirulina, I feel, would be a worthwhile addition to our Lenten diets.

Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Awhile back the government of Canada strongly urged Canadians to take Vitamin D supplements during the winter months. Apparently due to staying in doors & being out of direct sunlight we are short on Vitamin D.

With some degree of disbelief I went out and purchased a bottle. Within an hour of taking the Vitamin D tablet my energy level shot up. It's a bit like the energy of caffeine but without the frazzledness of this. You feel more alert & aware and definitely with a better energy level.

So for those of you fasting and who live in northern climates I would strongly suggest looking into this.

Our government suggests we only need this supplement during winter months however, so keep this in mind.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Effie Ganatsios]

Yes, for years doctors have been telling us to stay out of the sun and now they are telling us that we lack Vitamin D because we don't get enough sun, especially during winter.

They now tell us the Vitamin D protects us from many illnesses including cancer. I remember reading about how children in countries in the northern hemisphere used to suffer from rickets which is caused by a lack of Vitamin D.

The sun is our friend and we should let it do its job, but only in the morning and late afternoon hours. Half an hour a day is enough to ensure we get enough vitamin D. In countries like Canada - one of my favourite countries - I suppose in winter there might be a lack of sun, in which case a Vitamin D supplement would be advisable.

Father Raphael, if it made you feel so good, maybe I should try it!!!!

Effie

[Olga]

Vitamin D deficiency has long been a problem for people living in northern latitudes with very short winter days, and supplements are commendable (though the dreaded cod-liver oil has been superseded by far more palatable alternatives, thank goodness!).

However the exhortation to limit exposure to the sun (or protect oneself with broad-spectrum sunscreens) should be heeded by those who live in Australia and similar southern latitudes. Here, vitamin D deficiency is almost unheard of, but the risk of skin cancers, including malignant melanoma, is very real. Another increasing risk is eye damage, including the development of cataracts in the lenses of the eyes, when polarised sunglasses are not worn. Over the last 25-30 years, the sun definitely has increased its "bite" here, not least due to the hole in the ozone layer over this part of the world.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Yes Olga, I agree completely. Australia is the no. 1 skin cancer country in the world. This might perhaps be because when I was young beaches and surfing were the most important things in our lives. No-one could have foreseen the results of these carefree years.

Also lots of Australians are descendents of the Irish, Scots, and English. Their forefathers came from countries that weren't very sunny, so genetically they are more at risk.

Effie

[Misha]

When you would tell to elder Epiphanios that you were sick and that the doctor advised you not to fast, he would lighten the fasting even unto the full breaking of the fast, without approaching the subject scholastically. At this point, it seemed that some people had
reproached him for what they believed was his easy implementation of "economia."Specifically, one person told him:

"The Spiritual Father should give permission for someone to break the fast only for health reasons, according to the holy Fathers - when his state is such, that he is truly bedridden and his house has caught fire from the four corners so that he does not have the strength to get up to leave. He must be that ill!"

The Elder then answered him:

"The holy Fathers don't say such things!"

"The do say!" the person insisted.

"The don't, because the Fathers don't write stupidities! I confess bedridden people who have suffered strokes or heart attacks or they are handicapped from various inherited, neurological illnesses who not only can fast, but it is medically imposed upon them to fast due to their illnesses. On the contrary, I have spiritual children who may seem healthy, because they are active and they work, yet they are excused from observing fasting due to invisible sufferings of theirs: for example - sugar diabetes. So, the criterion of the breaking or observance of the fast is not whether someone is bedridden or if he can walk,
but the type of suffering and the opinion of pious doctors, who will also be consulted."

And he added:

"Fasting has as its purpose the bridling of the unruly urges and appetites of the body and to humble man. If the illness has, by divine allowance, undertaken this task, then what should you do with further fasting?"

He related further, with a smile, that he had mentioned to Father Paisios, the well-known ascetic of the Holy Mountain, this "rule" about ones house having to be on fire and the holy Elder Paisios, with a loving, playful disposition said:

"Yes, of course, thus you should do! You should carry with you a plastic jug of gasoline and when someone asks you not to fast for health reasons, you tell him, 'Wait just a minute!' Pour gasoline in the four corners of the room and start a fire. If you see that he
can't move and he is in danger of being burned, allow him to break the fast. If, however, you see him jump up and flee to escape, tell him: "No! You must fast!'"