Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints

[RichardWorthington]

While in Malta (see also here (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=56432#post56432)!) I went around some very beautiful churches. However, on reading the sample prayers to Mary and saints I found the following three. The thing is that, while highly venerating our all-pure Sovereign Lady, I was instantly struck by how different these prayers appeared from anything I had ever seen in Orthodoxy (e.g. services, prayer books,etc.).

The full prayers are in the attachment, but the main problems I have with them are indicated below:


from 1) Prayer to Our Lady "Ta’ Pinu"

Above all, I beg you, have pity on me suffering under the cross which Almighty God made me bear. If it is not detrimental to my soul grant me that (mention the special grace you wish to obtain).

If, however, it is not God’s will that I obtain this grace, help me, I beseech You, to accept willingly His will, that I may ensure that my earthly sufferings help me to procure eternal happiness.


This one seems to make God the one who, even out of love, causes rebukes to come to us, but Mary the one who can help us with our 'cross'. Also the notion of our earthly suffering procuring eternal happiness sounds too much like trying to 'merit' our salvation (even if it is not meant in this way).




from 2)
0 glorious St. Ann ... I cast myself at your feet, and humbly beg of you to take the present intention which I recommended to you in your special care. Please recommend to your daughter, the blessed Virgin Mary, and place it before the throne of Jesus, so that he may bring it to a happy issue.


I have no problems asking a saint to ask the Mother of God to pray for us - such is our devotion to her, but the way this is worded makes it sound like there is an unhealthy separation between us and Christ, and Mary and Christ: surely she now sits on His throne as she has, but God's grace, overcome (Rev 3:21).



from 3)
Grant us this grace which we need (...) and on our part we promise to spread amongst friends and relatives our love and devotion towards you. Amen.


In this prayer it is almost like we promise to do something for her otherwise she may not do something for us, i.e. her love is conditional in a negative way.


Now I know that perhaps these might be logically similar to something which might be found in Orthodoxy, but they just feel out of line.

What do people here think?

Richard

[Nina]

Prayer to Our Lady "Ta’ Pinu"What do people here think?

Richard

Do you know what Ta' Pinu means?

It reminds me of a greek word which (with a bit of adjustment) means humble.

[RichardWorthington]

The name Ta' Pinu:



The name of the Basilica has its roots in the name of a very religious man who took it upon himself to take care of the chapel. His name was Pillippinu Gauci, Pinu for short. He restored the chapel and in 1619 ordered the painting of Our Lady Ta' Pinu, representing the Assumption of The Blessed Virgin to Heaven. The painting was done by Amadeo Perugino, probably a member of the Inquisitor's train. The name "Ta' Pinu" has stuck through the centuries.

from http://www.maltagozo.com/tapinu.html. It also tells of the history of this church.
(In this church the holy place is in the middle, but it is open to all. My father said he saw tourists - like us - walking in and out of it. Wwe Orthodox have a different attitude to the holy place, I think.)

Richard

[Effie Ganatsios]

Richard, I understood something different from the first prayer.

We ask the Theotokos to intervene for us but if it is not God's will that this be done, then we ask for acceptance of God's will.

Regarding the last prayer and your understanding of it.

Have you ever been in a Greek Orthodox church here in Greece, especially in Tinos where there is a miracle working icon of our Lady Theotokos? You will find lots and lots of gold jewellery and ornaments - even small feet, arms, whatever part of the body is afflicted. What does this mean? To me, it seems that people are offering money for healing. I don't know how this custom started. Perhaps it is very religious in that people were willing to give up their earthly possessions i.e. gold, or whatever they had that was the most precious to them, in order to clear the path for God's grace to reach them.

I would appreciate any comments and explanations of this custom.

Effie

[Anna K.]

Dear friends,

We also have jewelry and other gifts on miracle working icons of the Theotokos sometimes, I believe they have been brought there afterwards, in thanks for a prayer having been answered.

So in a way all the gifts on the icons are beautiful reminders of the miracles happened.

In Christ
Anna

[Olga]

My understanding is that these small plaques and other tokens (Greeks call them tamata, from a word meaning promise or vow) festooning icons are indeed placed there after the prayers of healing have been answered.

It is not only the "famous" miraculous icons which are so treated. Any icon can be the "recipient" of these tamata, particularly if the saint on the icon is associated with healing from particular ailments. For instance, there would hardly be a single icon of St Paraskevi in any Greek church anywhere in the world which does not have an array of plaques depicting an eye or a pair of eyes, as she is most associated with healing of blindness or other eye diseases or injuries.

[Paul Cowan]

My understanding is that these small plaques and other tokens (Greeks call them tamata, from a word meaning promise or vow) festooning icons are indeed placed there after the prayers of healing have been answered.

It is not only the "famous" miraculous icons which are so treated. Any icon can be the "recipient" of these tamata, particularly if the saint on the icon is associated with healing from particular ailments. For instance, there would hardly be a single icon of St Paraskevi in any Greek church anywhere in the world which does not have an array of plaques depicting an eye or a pair of eyes, as she is most associated with healing of blindness or other eye diseases or injuries.

This is true on the Holy Mountain as well. I was able to venerate many icons of the Theotokos that had coins, jewelry, watches, gold body parts or a whole person (all behind glass of course) and many Bishop's and Metropolitan's medallions hanging from them.

I was encouraged to offer the same when God grants healing for my wife.

Paul

[Nina]

Yes dear Effie,

Anna, Olga and Paul explain it very well.

I also think that is a pledge the person gives before in prayer, but offers after the miracle occurs. I also have read about someone who was very rich and who could not see and he/she prayed for sight and pledged that the first thing he/she sees will be made in gold and offered to the church/saint/icon. The first thing that person saw was an orange tree and he/she kept the promise and made a golden one and offered it. It may be a saint or some rich person from Byzantium or other places but sorry that I forgot and if someone knows it the source please post because I loved that story.

We have in the Acts the example of the first Christians offering material possessions for the Church also. Do you remember the couple that offered and then regretted their decision? It has all to do with the heart and its attachment or not to earthly possessions. God did not ask anything from them.

In case of the healing is also more deep because as we know from the story when only one person out of ten, returned to give thanks to God. And God made an example of him. So the offering on the icons not only shows that the person was serious in his prayer and did not take it lightly, also that the person really kept the promise to God, but also that the person is thankful and returns to give thanks to God.

As with other promises/vows (like monastic vows etc.) this does not show that we offer something for something like money for healing, possessions, celibacy for Heaven in case of monastics etc. but it shows the gratitude that some people feel about God and the acknowledgment for His omnipotence. Also it is an expression of faith and thanksgiving. And maybe much more.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Offering gold after a miracle has occurred puts a very different light on these offerings, doesn't it. Yes, I can understand gratitude.

Thank you all for making the above clear to me.

Effie

[RichardWorthington]

First of all, I am sorry if my initial post was troublesome to any Catholic: I was merely expressing my fear (perhaps from my Evangelical days) concerning the Catholic veneration of Mary and the saints.

However, in the back of my mind was this quotation from a Roman Catholic saint (I do not have the booklet in front of me now, but copied the quotation from the attachment in "Why invoke intercessors at all?" (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=54616#post54616); I can provide more information if required):



Even if our acts are very holy, they are not completely without stain, and if we want to offer them to Jesus Christ, we should give them first to Mary Immaculate, as her own. She will give them to Jesus Christ as hers, so that they will come to him stainless and pleasing. Then, receiving infinite value through Jesus, our acts will worthily honor God our Father.
(“Mary Immaculate”, St Maximilian Kolbe, Augustine Publishing Company. ISBN 0-85172-663-1; p.19-20).



What do people here think of this quotation? (I especially would like the views of any Catholics.)

Additionally, elsewhere in this booklet it mentions that God has assigned justice to Christ, but mercy to Mary. Even more so, it says that if we say the name "Mary" before taking holy communion then Mary takes communion instead of us, and that this is the greatest offering we can make to her.

How can these things be said?

Sorry again for any bad feelings.

Richard

[M.C. Steenberg]

I would just like to pre-empt any tendencies toward wandering off topic in response to the above post: please can discussion be kept on the precise issues of intercessory prayer, and the Mother of God's place in / with it; and not on dialogue as to differences in Roman Catholic and Orthodox views per se.

Many thanks, INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Aidan Kimel]

Richard, I'm afraid that St Maximilian's Marian spirituality is beyond my sympathies and experience. I honestly do not know how to respond to it, and I suspect most Catholics do not know either. Maximilian had a great devotion to the Blessed Virgin, but many of his speculations about her role as Mediatrix are speculations and do not represent magisterial doctrine.

For a more balanced presentation of the Virgin Mary and her role in the economy of salvation, I refer you to John Paul II's encyclical Redemptoris Mater: http://tinyurl.com/atjl5.