'Meat inflames the passions'

[Linda]

In the "Why don't monastics eat meat?" thread, I saw reference to meat inflaming the passions.

I mentioned this to my Protestant husband who is, not surprisingly, insisting on scriptural back-up.

Is there anything I can give him?

Thank you

[Mourad Mankarios]

In the "Why don't monastics eat meat?" thread, I saw reference to meat inflaming the passions.

I mentioned this to my Protestant husband who is, not surprisingly, insisting on scriptural back-up.

Is there anything I can give him?

Thank you

Adam and Eve, from the account we have in Genesis, were originally created in the Garden of Eden as vegetarians and in complete harmony with nature. According to scripture it was not till Noah and after the deluge that man was given the blessing to use beasts for food as well. For many of those who fast it is in many ways a restoration of the original order created by God as He had made Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

When Daniel the prophet fasted for three weeks the example he set before us was the following:
"In those days I, Daniel, was mourning three full weeks. I ate no pleasant food, no meat or wine came into my mouth, nor did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled." (Daniel 10:2 - 3)

Solomon in his Proverbs associates the consumption of meat with gluttony:
"Do not mix with winebibbers, Or with gluttonous eaters of meat" (Proverbs 23:20)

We have also as an example of a form of austere fasting and spirituality St John the Baptist whose diet consisted solely of locusts and wild honey.

Furthermore, both Jewish and Christian traditions had established such a custom of fasting over centuries; so much so that both Orthodox and Catholic churches continue to fast in the same tradition till today.

However, interestingly enough such a custom is even appreciated and an integral component of the spirituality of many other major religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism.

In addition one can now even resort to modern medical and scientific research in order to explore and discover the links that have been established between the consumption of meat and testosterone levels. It's really amazing that the church for centuries in her divinely granted wisdom was able to understand this and provide her children with the gift of fasting.

Moreover it would be important to emphasise that it is not so much the consumption of meat that one is to be weary of but rather gluttony. However, avoiding meats and limiting oneself to simple foods can aide a person in overcoming the passion of gluttony as indicated here.

It is also important to note that meat is not avoided because of some kind of inherent impurity as may have been practiced with certain types of meats in the Old Testament amongst the Jews. Rather we understand that as in the vision of St Peter in the New Testament all things are pure and permissable to the believing Christian, however, as the apostle also later explains not all things are benefitial, upbuilding or edifying.

[Rick H.]

Dear Linda,

I think the New Testament would probably support a steak dinner for your husband, more than not, if you were to do a topical search on this matter.

However, Mourad offers some choice cuts here I think in what he presents. Possibly, you can offer his post to your husband. I have been kind of hard headed about this in the past myself. It was only through my personal experience in this area that I could see what is being said. Maybe in this sense it is a case of 'don't taste and see.'

And, I don't want to get your thread off course here, but possibly at some point someone can address the subject (here or somewhere else) about what is touched upon above about the more passive or the more aggressive man as it relates to a Christian philosophy of living.

Thanks for bringing this topic up, it will be interesting to see how it might be unpacked.

In Christ,
Rick

[Michael Stickles]

In the "Why don't monastics eat meat?" thread, I saw reference to meat inflaming the passions.

I mentioned this to my Protestant husband who is, not surprisingly, insisting on scriptural back-up.

Is there anything I can give him?

Thank you

You won't find any Scriptures which say overtly that "meat inflames the passions". Not that this should be an issue. The real question is not "do the Scriptures overtly say it", but "is it true, and if so what does that mean for my life of faith"? I can't speak for your husband, but I know that in my own life the demand for supporting Scripture usually meant that the issue had touched too close to an area where I didn't want to submit to God unless "forced" to by a clear Biblical command.

After all, there are many other practices in the various Protestant churches which are not overtly Scriptural, but are derived from a mating of Scripture with experience, culture, and/or common sense. (I still remember a pastor who insisted that every religious practice needed explicit Scriptural authorization, and claimed the church I attended at the time was in violation of Scripture by having a kitchen in the church building, since kitchens in church buildings were not authorized by the New Testament. He got rather upset when I asked him for the New Testament authorization for a church owning its own building in the first place, instead of the given examples of meeting in schools, Jewish synagogues, the Temple, or private homes. I never did get an answer from him...)

There is a page An History of Fasting (http://www.acrod.org/sn/fasting2.html) by The Very Rev. Protopresbyter Lawrence Barriger, which has the following to say (the article is longer; I'd encourage anyone interested in the hstory of fasting to read the whole thing):



Abstaining from meat was a practice that developed in the monastic movement of the fourth century ...

There were several reasons for this abstention. First is the undeniable fact that meat tastes good! To give it up completely was a sign of self-denial. As Abba Evagrios writes:

When the soul lusts for various foods, let us confine it to bread and water, to make it grateful for even a thin slice of bread. - The Philokalia; Abba Evagrios, On Active Life

Secondly, in the physiological theory of the ancient world meat was a food, which because of the blood in it, was held to "excite" the body. Digesting meat was seen as requiring more effort of the body and hence caused the passions to be stirred up. There were even Christians who condemned outright the eating of meat by any member of the Church. This monasticism gone awry was condemned at the Synod of Gangra in 340 A.D.:

Anathema to him who disregards legitimate marriage; anathema to him also who condemns the eating of flesh…. - Canons 1 and 2

Another reason why the monks followed a diet of bread and vegetables was, as mentioned above, that this was the common poor man's fare in the ancient world. When it came to the care of the body the monks believed in the simplest food and drink and often did not even bathe.

...

Although the fasting practices themselves may have varied with time and place and from person to person in the history of the Church the fact remains that fasting has always been seen as an important part of Orthodox Christian Life.

However, the Tradition of the Church has always seen fasting as only a tool to combat the passions and to open the door to the renewal of the Holy Spirit: beyond this higher purpose it has no value.


In Christ,
Mike

[Father David Moser]

Along the same lines as Mike's comments above. I would question the premise that something needs to be in scripture in order to be true. Where are the scriptural references to gravity? But we believe it even though we can't see it or understand it. Where the references to radio waves? We can't see them and most of us can't understand them (in fact no one fully understands them) but my guess is that a large majority of those reading this message are doing so via wireless internet connection and/or listening to the radio or watching TV - even though there is no scriptural reference to the radio waves that drive all of that.

As Mike indicates the whole "Where does it say that in scripture" is more often than not a red herring which is an attempt to derail any topic that threatens my ego.

The "evidence" for meat inflaming the passions is in the lives and experience of the saints. That's part and parcel of the living Church, that when we implement the scriptural and traditional principles in our lives, we then discover a greater depth of their meaning.

Fr David Moser

[Linda]

Along the same lines as Mike's comments above. I would question the premise that something needs to be in scripture in order to be true. Where are the scriptural references to gravity? But we believe it even though we can't see it or understand it. Where the references to radio waves? We can't see them and most of us can't understand them (in fact no one fully understands them) but my guess is that a large majority of those reading this message are doing so via wireless internet connection and/or listening to the radio or watching TV - even though there is no scriptural reference to the radio waves that drive all of that.

As Mike indicates the whole "Where does it say that in scripture" is more often than not a red herring which is an attempt to derail any topic that threatens my ego.

The "evidence" for meat inflaming the passions is in the lives and experience of the saints. That's part and parcel of the living Church, that when we implement the scriptural and traditional principles in our lives, we then discover a greater depth of their meaning.

Fr David Moser

I totally agree, and I definitely recognized it as the red herring it is. < smile >

I have been given wonderful information in this thread. Thank you all so much.

[Nina]

Speaking of meat, did you read the news that it was approved recently to sell meat from clones?

[Rick H.]

The "evidence" for meat inflaming the passions is in the lives and experience of the saints. That's part and parcel of the living Church, that when we implement the scriptural and traditional principles in our lives, we then discover a greater depth of their meaning.




Dear Linda,

After reading Father David's conclusion, I would like to withdrawl my so called post, and instead respond, 'what he said.'

In Christ,
Rick