'Standing before God' as a method of prayer

[David Naess]

Since I am new to Orthodoxy I thought that I could get some opinions here...

I am currently reading:

"The Art of Prayer"
compiled by: Igumen Chariton of Valamo

He mentions "Standing before God" as one method of prayer.
(Ch. 2 "Degrees of Prayer")

This appears to me (as a newcomer) to be very similar to the
SUBJECTIVE MEDITATION that I have been practicing for about
a decade as a seeker.

i.e.; Continually going deeper within yourself without a set objective
rather than using an external or an internal focal point for meditation.

I know that the "target" is different, but the "mechanics" appear to be
the same.

Does this sound about right?

[Kypreos]

I have not read "The Art of Prayer" but from the brief summary on amazon.com and your post I'll assume your post is inquiring about the Jesus Prayer.

It is a form of meditation, but I would not classify it as subjective or objective meditation. Where as in one form we are focused on "nothingness" and in the latter we are focused on an object. Both seem to have a Buddhist feel, and dont quit sit well in Orthodoxy.

Yes, I agree, the "target" is different. I believe the "mechanics" seem to be similar on the surface (deep breathing, stillness ...etc) but below the surface it is quite different. The mood in which we enter this deep prayer, the soil we use to cultivate this prayer is very different.

So on the surface the mechanics may look similar, but behind that, it shares no resemblance or similarity with other forms of meditation.

I am a newcomer as well David, both to monachos.net and the Orthodox struggle. Take my opinion as just that, an opinion. I advise that you have the guidance of a spiritual father who can help you harvest the fruits of this prayer.

[Irene]

The Back Cover of the book says the author Igumen Chariton the Abbot of Valamo Monastry is writing mainly about the Jesus Prayer, taking "his text chiefly from the letters of Bishop Theophan the Recluse".

When you pray your focus is on the Prayer, on God, on Jesus, on whoever your prayer is too or about. If you are praying for the healing of someone's sickness, then you are focused on the sick person and also who you are praying to, be it a Saint and asking for they're prayers or Jesus asking for healing.

Standing before God, you are focused on God, on praying to God and not letting your mind wander onto daily trivia.

[David Naess]

"Standing before God" is one of the methods that is discussed before the Jesus Prayer is discussed.

For all intents and purposes it is just internal silence and stillness.
No words are going through the heart or mind. Just "quietly listening to God."

Dave

[Seda S.]

About "quietly listening to God", or "praying" without words also Metropolitan Anthony Bloom speaks in one of his books about prayer (I'm sorry, I cannot recall the title of the book). I'll try to find it in the Internet. If I find, I'll tell you. Or you yourself could search it, too.

[Seda S.]

It is found in the book "School for prayer" but, unfortunately, I couldn't find the text of that book online...

[Herman Blaydoe]

"Standing before God" is one of the methods that is discussed before the Jesus Prayer is discussed.

For all intents and purposes it is just internal silence and stillness.
No words are going through the heart or mind. Just "quietly listening to God."

Dave


Be still, and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth! (Psalm 46:10 NKJV)

[Irene]

This really bothers me. No thoughts, no words, listening to God. How are you to know it is God you are hearing? Emptying your mind is one of the techniques in Yoga and Meditationn that I was warned not to do as an Orthodox Christian. So honestly, how is this for the anyone except a very experienced monastics/ascetic? Isn't a person in danger of prelest? When I read the Bible passage to "be still and know that I am God" I had thought keep worldly thoughts out of your mind, be quiet.

The method in this thread would only be possibly under strict guidance.

[Andreas Moran]

This really bothers me. No thoughts, no words, listening to God. How are you to know it is God you are hearing? Emptying your mind is one of the techniques in Yoga and Meditationn that I was warned not to do as an Orthodox Christian. So honestly, how is this for the anyone except a very experienced monastics/ascetic? Isn't a person in danger of prelest? When I read the Bible passage to "be still and know that I am God" I had thought keep worldly thoughts out of your mind, be quiet.

The method in this thread would only be possibly under strict guidance.

Irene is absolutely right here. I was taught that one should have a blessing to practise the Jesus Prayer (as opposed to saying it a few times on occasion). It is essential to rid oneself of all ideas of 'meditation' and of using any 'techniques'. We do not seek 'states' in prayer. We do not even try to adopt any special 'attitude'. We cough, sniffle and so on even as we pray. We have no expectations. It is true that we should try to expel all thoughts and images in the mind. We concentrate only on the words of the prayer and their meaning. The first words of the prayer are our ackowledgement of Jesus Christ as our Lord and our God (as the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity Who was Incarnate), and the second part of the prayer is our acknowledgement of ourselves as sinners in need of God's mercy. We do not empty our mind but gather it from its dispersal amongst the things in the world which attract it and fragment it, we draw it back and allow our prayer to create harmony and union of the mind and the heart. But that is advanced. For my part, even in perfect conditions, I can't say the prayer for more than a couple of minutes before my mind wanders off and I have to pull it back. As for 'listening to God' - if you 'hear' words in your mind's ear, and even if the words seem harmless and even good, how can you know that they are from God and not your imagination? Who has such discernment? Not many!

[David Naess]

When I put my mind to it, I find it fairly easy to do something that many people say is impossible:

Stop the conscious thought process.

The ever flowing internal conversation that you have with yourself just stops. External input is just allowed to pass through without analysis.

Thus I am just "Standing silently in the temple of the Lord."

From some points of view, this could be "leaving the front gate open and inviting the demons of the night to enter into the castle!"

Dave

[Andreas Moran]

When I put my mind to it, I find it fairly easy to do something that many people say is impossible:

Then something is not right.

[Paul Cowan]

Then something is not right.

I have to mostly agree with Dave. Though not easy at first, with God's help it is possible to do what many others can't (or choose not to). I don't know exactly what Dave refers to he is clearing his mind from, but with enough incentive and prayer, it is possible to "clean" one's mind of bad things. As Christ says when you clean the house the demons leave and with no place to go they come back to where they came from. If they find it clean yet empty (devoid of the Holy Spirit) they bring 7 friends. If it finds the house clean and "full" he cannot return.

It is a matter (very difficult yes, yet possible) of keeping the house clean enough for the Holy Spirit to want to enter. Yes, I still sin, but my sins are not as they were.

Paul

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Paul and David,

I write what I write not to be polemical at all but out of concern. David is only just recently Orthodox and seems to have come from somewhere quite antithetical to the Orthodox spiritual tradition. Experienced practioners of the Jesus Prayer never say it is easy, and monastics I know would not say it is easy. I don't know David's mind, obviously, but at this stage to say that he is able to do as he says - and I'm not so sure that what he says reflects the proper Orthodox way - tells me something is not quite right, though I don't mean by that necessarily harmful. But we need the opinion of one of the Fathers.

[David Naess]

Howdy Andreas!

I have not really started on the Jesus Prayer and have no intention of seriously doing so until I have some spiritual supervision.

What I am talking about is more along the line of illumination rather than divinization. Once illumination has taken place, it is "exploring" those places within yourself that a person does not know are there before illumination.

[Andreas Moran]

I have not started on the Jesus Prayer and have no intention of doing so until I have some spiritual supervision in doing so.

Fine, David!


What I am talking about is more along the line of illumination rather than divinization. Once illumination has taken place, it is "exploring" those places within yourself that a person does not know are there before illumination.

You seem, if I may so venture, to have left out 'purification'. Forgive me if you already know about these books, and I do not mean to impose if you have a spiritual guide, but I can recommend the following books:

Archim. [now Metroplitan]Hierotheos Vlachos, 'Orthodox Spirituality - a brief introduction'.

Harry Boosalis, 'Orthodox Spiritual Life According to Saint Silouan the Athonite'.

Dorotheos of Gaza, 'Discourses and Sayings'.


but with enough incentive and prayer, it is possible to "clean" one's mind of bad things.

Prayer of the heart, undertaken in humility and repentance, reveals our passions to us. With them we do battle. But, according to Elder Sophrony, Christian perfection is not possible in this life.


Yes, I still sin, but my sins are not as they were.

For my part, no, my sins are not as they were - they are far worse.

[Paul Cowan]

Quotation:
but with enough incentive and prayer, it is possible to "clean" one's mind of bad things.

Prayer of the heart, undertaken in humility and repentance, reveals our passions to us. With them we do battle. But, according to Elder Sophrony, Christian perfection is not possible in this life.


Quotation:
Yes, I still sin, but my sins are not as they were.

For my part, no, my sins are not as they were - they are far worse.


Yes, I agree on both parts. How we fight our passions and are aware of our weaknesses is how with guidance how we fight them. Some sins can be fought outright with a full frontal attack. Some sins we must run from because to fight them only makes them stronger in us if only perhipherally. (sp)

Knowing of an ambush is the first step to prevent being ambushed. Know who you are (plural) and know what leads to your fall and you can go out of your way to avoid being tripped up. Yes, my sins also are far worse, but thank God they are not the same sins I was succombing to before. Now I have a new set of sins to work on that at least in my hopes will not lead to my destruction as quickly.

Paul

[Kyprian Galbraith]

While I thoroughly agree emptying the mind is a bad thing, it is not in fact the basis for eastern meditations in the way you are referring. They would tell you it is not possible to empty the mind, only to find a point of reference to rest it upon, kind of like the eye of the storm from which to actually observe the mind (I was deeply in Eastern practice prior to becoming Orthodox in my 30s).

Being still, being quiet, being observant, turning the nous towards its/our Creator, through simple intent, and when it wanders returning it to Him...is how I understand "be still and know that I Am God."

Nowhere in dvaita or advaita yoga is it taught to empty the mind. One can become absorbed however, in subjectivity, an an evil way, but also in a holy way...the difference is in metanoia, in continually turning the eye of the soul/ or the nous towards its Creator, not with imagination, nor visualization, nor conceptualization but through one's "felt sense" being turned back, over and over and over again, to God, regardless of the thoughts and emotions that appear and resolve in the mind.

Even sometimes when I am in silence and gazing upon an icon on the Lord, for example, many thoughts may or may not come to mind, I recognize they are there but they are not relevant, what is relevant is turning my attention to Him (without some imagined form,thought, or emotion that I might turn into an idol and put in place of Him.)

Often praying the Jesus Prayer, the words will/can cease, but the "intention" continues to pray...this can occur and one may or may not feel "blessed" or "happy" "sad" whatever....that's all irrelevant in my experience. I will often pray the Jesus Prayer on my Chotki without words, but with intention on each knot. I'm not at all eloquent enought to explain this in detail.

Similar to what Jews call kavanah, or desire of intention, is what I gather when I read St. Theophan the Recluse. With each and every prayer prayed, to excersize the perceptive quality/the nous and focus it on the intention of the prayer. Praying in this way, even the Trisagion prayers could take as long as one might normally do all of there prayers.

I find when I can pray in this manner, as in Elder Sophrony's quote my passions become reveled to me and I simply recognize them, and offer them on the throne of my attention back to the Lord. This has allowed me to become (a bit) more authentic in my relationship with the Lord.

But then again, this is just my experience, please don't take my word for anything
the sinner,
Kyprian


This really bothers me. No thoughts, no words, listening to God. How are you to know it is God you are hearing? Emptying your mind is one of the techniques in Yoga and Meditationn that I was warned not to do as an Orthodox Christian. So honestly, how is this for the anyone except a very experienced monastics/ascetic? Isn't a person in danger of prelest? When I read the Bible passage to "be still and know that I am God" I had thought keep worldly thoughts out of your mind, be quiet.

The method in this thread would only be possibly under strict guidance.

[Peter S.]

Even sometimes when I am in silence and gazing upon an icon on the Lord, for example, many thoughts may or may not come to mind, I recognize they are there but they are not relevant, what is relevant is turning my attention to Him (without some imagined form,thought, or emotion that I might turn into an idol and put in place of Him.)

Often praying the Jesus Prayer, the words will/can cease, but the "intention" continues to pray...this can occur and one may or may not feel "blessed" or "happy" "sad" whatever....that's all irrelevant in my experience. I will often pray the Jesus Prayer on my Chotki without words, but with intention on each knot. I'm not at all eloquent enought to explain this in detail.

Similar to what Jews call kavanah, or desire of intention, is what I gather when I read St. Theophan the Recluse. With each and every prayer prayed, to excersize the perceptive quality/the nous and focus it on the intention of the prayer. Praying in this way, even the Trisagion prayers could take as long as one might normally do all of there prayers.

But then again, this is just my experience, please don't take my word for anything
the sinner,
Kyprian

Dear Kyprian

I have some bad experience with focusing too long on words in one specific prayer like the Trisagion. But I dont know what you exactly are referring to. Sometimes God lets it be easier for us to pray than other times, depending on ourselves at that moment in prayer, and sometimes it is just flowing as a beautiful talk with God. At other times it is very hard work, and it is important to not get tired of praying.

Focusing too long, reminds me of forcing the thought and mind, but that is maybe not your experience. To meditate on the words could be good, but I dont know what the Fathers say about that. Prayer must come naturally. I think it is important to understand what you are saying in prayer, and pray the prayer as it is meant to be offered to God. (Learning to pray the right way could be a science.) Prayer is a relationship with God.

I couldnt imagine to meditate too long on the words in praying the Jesusprayer, ie. pray it just one time, because there the point is to repeat the salving name of Jesus and that I am a sinner who needs help. I think it is better to say a prayer not fast and not as over a great lenght. After that it could be an idea to meditate on the icon of Christ, thinking of him. That is also a kind of prayer.

Peter

[Andreas Moran]

Pausing to dwell upon and contemplate a particular word or phrase in the Jesus Prayer would be wrong. The prayer should be rhythmic. Thus the mind is able to feel the heart. This is why a prayer rope is used. Furthermore, the complete prayer must be said because only then is there a conjunction of the two halves of the prayer: confessing that Jesus is Lord, the Christ and Only-Begotten Son of God, and our acknowledgement of our sinfulness and need for His mercy: without this acknowledgement there is no salvation. We must always remember that the Name of Jesus is to be, as Father Sophrony puts it, 'inseparably coupled with a consciousness of Christ Himself. The Name must not be be detached from the Person of God.' Prayed in its fulness in humility, the Jesus Prayer unites us with God and so may be a liturgical act. As Father Sophrony notes, all the Divine Services are accomplished through the Divine Name. Having called upon the Name of the Lord, the presence of God is felt and we are delivered.

[Kyprian Galbraith]

Yes, I absolutely agree,

I was/am not referring to "focusing on the words", in fact I mention several times focusing, or resting in the intention...one can "feel the intention of one's heart" similarly to "hearing the words in one's ears or mind."

And yes, forcing the mind, is just as destructive and misleading as trying to "empty" the mind, neither can be done.

The nous or perceptive/preceptive communication between the spirit and the flesh is what I am referring to here.


"...The Name must not be be detached from the Person of God."

I think this is extremely important...to believe or behave as if the Name of God had power, aside from our faith in it (speaking of 'internally' within ourselves) is the sin of idolatry...just so as I mentioned in an earlier post often I can pray the prayer (Jesus Prayer) or any other prayer AS intention with no words.

I'm also not referring to "willy nilly warm feelings/emotional prayer" that I somehow allow emotions to lead the prayer..again, I am referring to the perceptive/preceptive "organ" that stands between the intellect and the spirit...Such as the concept of metanoia, the contstant turning, returning ones attention to the face of God...and its not a matter of forcing...for me when i realize that I have lost my "attention in/towards" Him, I am moved to repentence and simply "return my gaze" on Him. (of course talking metaphorically, not visually, or any other "sense" for that matter).

I hope everyone had a wonderful Sunday of Orthodoxy!
Today was St. Gerasomos' day, one of my most beloved saints.

'umbly,
Kyprian

~~A Pilgrim's Progress~~ (http://doxaentheos.freehostia.com/wordpress)


Pausing to dwell upon and contemplate a particular word or phrase in the Jesus Prayer would be wrong. The prayer should be rhythmic. Thus the mind is able to feel the heart. This is why a prayer rope is used. Furthermore, the complete prayer must be said because only then is there a conjunction of the two halves of the prayer: confessing that Jesus is Lord, the Christ and Only-Begotten Son of God, and our acknowledgement of our sinfulness and need for His mercy: without this acknowledgement there is no salvation. We must always remember that the Name of Jesus is to be, as Father Sophrony puts it, 'inseparably coupled with a consciousness of Christ Himself. The Name must not be be detached from the Person of God.' Prayed in its fulness in humility, the Jesus Prayer unites us with God and so may be a liturgical act. As Father Sophrony notes, all the Divine Services are accomplished through the Divine Name. Having called upon the Name of the Lord, the presence of God is felt and we are delivered.

[Misha]

the base and the purpose of our prayer is one:humility

"keep your mind in hell and despair not" said our Lord to st Silouan

here's a letter written by elder Paisios of Mt Athos,that might be helpful:

"Guidance about the Jesus Prayer,
A simple way for ceaseless prayer, if you want to you can use it too, which probably helps simple people who cannot get the true meaning of the neptic Holy Fathers, and run the risk of delusion.

Some (unfortunately) do not set the goal of putting off the old man (repentance, humility, and asceticism as a way of helping the sanctification of the soul) with a deep sense of their sinfulness. Then, they would naturally feel the need for God’s mercy, saying "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me," often. This with pain in their heart and then the feeling of the sweetness of divine comfort of the most Sweet Christ within their heart.
But unfortunately some people (as I mentioned) start off with a dry ascetic practice and seek after divine pleasure and lights and continually multiply their prayer-ropes and are sanctified by their calculation, reaching that conclusion (about their sanctity) from the mathematical reckoning of the greater amount of prayer-ropes they say.

They also (naturally) make footstools to the exact inch and all the other things, the bending of the head towards the heart. They regulate their breath and whatever else the watchful Saint Kallistuses and Gregorys of the Philokalia say. Then they create the false sensation that they are somewhere near the measure of those Saints.

From the moment they believe that thought, the tangalaki (the demon) immediately appears and sets up a television for them (with their fantasies) and devilish prophecies etc. of delusion follow.

For this reason, only certainty is repentance and let every spiritual edifice be built upon it and let us continually seek repentance from God and nothing else except that.

We should not ask for lights or miracles, or prophecies, or gifts of the Spirit, only for repentance. Repentance brings humility; humility will bring grace from God, because grace always goes to the humble, of necessity. Therefore, repentance is necessary for our salvation and when we have it, the grace of God will come and it will teach us what we need to do for salvation even of our fellows too, if it is necessary.

In this way, which I mentioned (feeling the great need for God’s mercy), we will say the Jesus Prayer many times with our whole heart and we will feel, as I mentioned, the sweetness of divine comfort of the most sweet Jesus within our heart. The heart will (then) have our nous in tight embrace, as well as our whole being.

Then, and only then, will prayer not be tiring, but rather it will give rest, because we have grasped the true meaning of it. Only then do we pray without putting pressure on ourselves, but we are pressurised by our sense of honour and dignity (philotimo) , which gives rise to all our spiritual upstanding generosity (leventia) . This produces the fluttering of the heart. Then the heart (however stony it may be) breaks and tears burst forth from their ducts (without an effort being made to weep during the time of prayer).

You feel the need for this prayer like a hungry baby who opens its little mouth and runs into the arms of its mother to be suckled and at the same time feels very secure in its mother’s loving care.

Nobody doubts that the enemy will try to war against us and to disperse our thoughts. However, when preceded by a little bit of Patristic study (e.g. The Sayings of the Fathers) a lid is put on all our cares, great and small, and on the day’s temptations. So, it is transformed into another atmosphere, a spiritual one and you pray with concentration.

If the enemy wages war with blasphemous thoughts (from his usual wickedness and envy) do not get upset. Instead, use the demon as your worker in the following way, by not getting upset, but by saying to the enemy: "It’s a good thing that you brought me those thoughts so that I can say the Jesus Prayer, because otherwise I forget to pray without ceasing." The enemy will then depart immediately, because he is only used to doing evil. I mentioned that because the enemy brings blasphemous thoughts to sensitive people (usually) to make them even more sensitive, to upset them and to cut them down.

The same applies to some that struggle in vigil over and above their strength, and with pride. When they slacken, and they do not have the strength to banish the thoughts of the enemy. They think that those blasphemous thoughts are their own, and so they suffer without reason, while the thoughts are not their own, but those of the enemy.

That is why young people should struggle in the matter of prayer with humility and discernment. They should prepare for the night. This, by not being distracted, by study and through moderate and simple food, which helps. As far as possible it should not be savoury, to avoid drinking plenty of water, because that, too, is an obstacle, with the bloating that it causes. In this way, the person is helped with prayer.

It helps a great deal if the light evening meal, however light it may be, takes place at around 4 o’clock (European time), after study, fathers and so on, or else 3 hours after the main meal. Small and great prostrations beforehand, and in between each prayer-rope, help a great deal, unfreezing the machine’s oil. Later, after getting quite tired, he should sit down and say the Jesus Prayer, since he brings to mind his wretchedness and the great favours of God that our good God has done for him.

Then the nous is collected (as I mentioned, in the heart, on its own) and seeks God’s mercy with all his heart, with all his soul and with all his mind, without making a great effort.

The three hours after sunset help a lot (having read patristic books before sunset), as well as after midnight until sunrise. For young people it is good for them to sleep one hour after sunset, with less prayer, and to get up after midnight, in order to avoid scandalous sleep of the morning.

Naturally, discernment is required and guidance from their spiritual father, who is a requirement."

[Kyprian Galbraith]

Amen!
Glory to God in All Things...
What a wonderful post Misha, thank you!

'umbly,
Kyprian

[Kyprian Galbraith]

I apologize, including the entire post in my original was not my intent, I'll be more careful! :D
Please pray for me a sinner,
Kyprian

[Jason Adams]

Hello,

I have heard from several sources that prayer is conversation with God. Is that right from the Orthodox point of view?

If so, I must confess that I have never heard any reply to my prayer. I tried to confess, praise, ask and listen in various configurations. Unfortunately the listening part leads to nowhere. I just can't hear anything. No guidence, no wisdom, no exhortation, nothing.

I would be very interested to hear what I am doing wrong and what are the conditions that one can actually hear the answer from God.

Christ be with you all

[Herman Blaydoe]

I have heard from several sources that prayer is conversation with God. Is that right from the Orthodox point of view?

Unless I am mistaken (very possible), Orthodoxy does not quite see it that way. Prayer is not so much a conversation but an encounter with God. Encounters don't always involve conversation.

Ezekiel had a problem with this as well. In 1 Kings 19:11-12 we read

And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:

And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

Sometimes that still small voice can be very hard to hear. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

And our Lord told this parable in Luke 8:1-7

And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:

And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.

And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;

Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.

And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Perseverance, it would seem, counts for something.

Bishop Anthony (Bloom) in his book Beginning to Pray says that when God seems most silent and most far off, that is the beginning of prayer.

And he says further in his book Courage to Pray

THE ABSENCE OF GOD
And in this context of truth, we must recognize the fact that God may be absent, This absence is of course subjective, in so far as God is always present to us. But he may remain invisible and intangible. He escapes us... When God does not give himself to us, when we cannot feel his presence, we must be able to wait with awe and reverence. But there is also another element in this subjective absence of God, A relationship can only be true if it takes place in mutual freedom. We too often feel that we have only to start praying for God to be obliged to offer himself to us, to listen to us, to let us feel his presence, to assure us that he hears us. If this were so, it would not be a free relationship, it would be mechanical and could have no joy and spontaneity. It would also suppose that we were always in a fit state to see God... An encounter with God is a free act where God is in control and it is only when we are humble, as well as beginning to love God, that we are able to support his absence, to be enriched even by his absence.

When God thinks you are ready, He will make Himself known to you, when the noise in your heart is quieted so as to hear a still, small voice. Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Peter S.]

Hello,

I have heard from several sources that prayer is conversation with God. Is that right from the Orthodox point of view?

If so, I must confess that I have never heard any reply to my prayer. I tried to confess, praise, ask and listen in various configurations. Unfortunately the listening part leads to nowhere. I just can't hear anything. No guidence, no wisdom, no exhortation, nothing.

I would be very interested to hear what I am doing wrong and what are the conditions that one can actually hear the answer from God.

Christ be with you all

Hi Jason.

I have read somewhere that when you pray the Jesusprayer you must have the goal of the prayer in your mind. Or else it will be empty words.
I dont know exactly what the goal is but it is something like: "To be a part of God, by grace". (Correct me if these words are not at the spot). It could also be something like: "To see Jesus". So it seems for me

This seems ambigious, but it is not, since it happens by Gods grace, and what you shall do is to love God and ask for his help.

The goal may never happen before death, but you must always have it in mind. You can not force the grace. But you can hope for it. Prayer is conversation with God. St. Gregory Palamas says something about this.

And I agree with what Herman says. Ezechiel waited for God.

You say that you hear nothing but Jesus have spoken to you and is speaking with you through the Bible. Try to see what he said to his disciples as he said it to you personally. We can also be his disciples. At least Jesus have spoken to us.

Peter

[Moses Anthony]

Hi Jason

You say that you hear nothing but Jesus have spoken to you and is speaking with you through the Bible. Try to see what he said to his disciples as he said it to you personally. We can also be his disciples. At least Jesus have spoken to us.

Peter

In my attempts to try writing poetry I wrote the following as a Protestant, many years ago:

There is no further sound
of velvety voice bringing comfort all around.
Where are you sweet whispering voice, where are you?

It's obviously stated in Scripture, that God has spoken to His people "...at various times, and in many ways." And, that in these last days "...He has spoken unto us through His Son." From which I surmise that all we now; or ever can know, about God, is as a result of God's self-revelation. And too, that God can speak to me any way He chooses!

Peter is correct, the Scriptures contain an awful lot, as to which I dare say many us of still struggle to be obedient. Jesus put the question like this: "...he who has ears to hear, let him hear...."

And, when we stand before the Almighty with the Jesus prayer on the lips of our hearts, how do we interpret the silence.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Jason Adams]

<quote>And, when we stand before the Almighty with the Jesus prayer on the lips of our hearts, how do we interpret the silence.</quote>

Hello Moses,

Yes, this is a very good question. Another question is why are we to interpret it? Didn't God promise in the Bible that if we ask for wisdom and guidance the above won't be denied to us?

I have been struggling with trying to hear God's voice for ever. What I am talking about is not God's voice contained in the Bible but answer to personal prayers. We are encouraged to pray in every situation in our lives and I do. Hearing the answer is another problem though..

I hope I am not too argumentative. I just try to understand.

[M.C. Steenberg]

I have been struggling with trying to hear God's voice for ever. What I am talking about is not God's voice contained in the Bible but answer to personal prayers. We are encouraged to pray in every situation in our lives and I do. Hearing the answer is another problem though.

It is good for us to remember that the practice of prayer is a discipline. That is, it is something that develops as we engage with it ascetically.

The best way 'in' is often the way of obedience - which cultivates a mollifying of the will and heart, so that it learns what it is to hear, and how.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Ken McRae]

Another question is why are we to interpret it?

That seems a little like asking why we need spiritual discernment (1 Cor. 2:14)? So "great," indeed, "is the mystery of godliness (1 Tim. 3:16)," and "the mystery of iniquity (2 Thes. 2:7)," to such a degree, that without spiritual discretion, they shall always remain hidden to us, locked away, as it were, behind seven seals (Rev. 5:1), and thus utterly impenetrable.

Additionally, if the written Word of God contains "some things hard to be understood (2 Pet. 3:16)," how much harder, then, must it be to "rightly divide the Word of Truth (2 Tim. 2:15)" which "is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (Heb. 4:12)?"

However, the answer to your question more simply, it is because God has His several reasons for remaining silent, or "hiding His face," as the Scripture expresses it. It is not always for the same reason; though it could very well be, in some cases, for one reason alone. It is entirely conceivable that some might spend their entire life in darkness because of one sin.

01) 2 Pet. 3:15-16 "Our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given unto him, hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

02) "The Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? (Acts. 8:29-31)"

03) 1 Cor. 2:15-16 "He that is spiritual judgeth (i.e. Interprets. KM) all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

04) Prov. 1:5-6 "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

05) Isa. 55:8 - "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

06) Isa. 50:4 - "The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned."

07) Ps. 103:7 - "He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel."

From the above few scripture texts, we may discern that it pleases the Lord for us to seek out the guidance of spiritual men (and women), who have acquired the mind of Christ; who can penetrate and discern the mind of God in regard to his dealings with our souls. If we lack the necessary humility to do this, to humble ourselves in such a way, so as to ask for guidance from those who possess the Spirit of God, then we should not realistically hope to penetrate the divine mysteries.


Didn't God promise in the Bible that if we ask for wisdom and guidance the above won't be denied to us?

If there is no need for us to "interpret" anything, pertaining to the "divine mysteries," then what need is there for "wisdom and guidance?"


I have been struggling with trying to hear God's voice for ever. What I am talking about is not God's voice contained in the Bible but answer to personal prayers. We are encouraged to pray in every situation in our lives and I do. Hearing the answer is another problem though.

What Dcn. Matthew has said appears correct and wise to me. One should not make assumptions, but assuming the problem is not the loss of grace, or the Lord hiding His face from you over some unresolved and hidden controversy, then you must look to a deficiency in the ascetic training of the spiritual senses: "Strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Heb. 5:14)

In regard to the practice of inner stillness, for example, the Word says: "Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still." (Ps. 4:4) "Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth." (Ps. 46:10) This kind of stillness requires training the senses in detachment from all images, and to turn inwardly, to seek the kingdom of heaven mystically, or within the hidden depths of the heart. It requires cultivating spiritual knowledge of the true gnosis, or hidden and secret things of God.

[Father David Moser]

I have been struggling with trying to hear God's voice for ever. What I am talking about is not God's voice contained in the Bible but answer to personal prayers. We are encouraged to pray in every situation in our lives and I do. Hearing the answer is another problem though..


Perhaps God is speaking, but you aren't hearing because you are expecting something different that what He's giving you. Have you heard that old joke about the man who was caught in a flood and prayed for God to save Him. As the waters rose, a canoe came by, but he refused to get in, saying to the guy in the boat that God would save him. Water rises, he goes upstairs, a motor boat comes by to evacuate those left, but the guy refuses waiting for God to save him. Water rises, he goes onto the roof and a helicopter comes by lowers a rope to take him to safety, but he refuses saying God will save him. The water rises, the man drowns, and he stands before the throne of God saying - I prayed but You didn't answer! God replies, "I sent you a canoe, a boat and a helicopter - what more did you want!" Sometimes we are so busy listening for the voice of God that we miss what He is giving to us.

You don't need to "hear" an internal "voice of God" or to understand all the why's of how God works o plumb the depths of God's plan and see the end result. All you have to do is what God puts in front of you right now. You move along the path that seems right to you or that is available to you now and then God will lay out the path as you go. If there is a misstep or you wander off the path, God will redirect you and bring you back to the path. Simply accept with trust and obedience the task that He puts before you today, right now and don't worry about what will happen tomorrow - leave that in God's hands.

There was a "holiness" preacher that I ran into back "in the day" who advocated a practice called "waiting on God". The problem was that everyone was waiting and no one was moving and so they all were "stalled" in their Christian lives, and they only moved when the preacher/guru told them what to do (based on twinges in his "heart" - probably tics and heartburn imo). God can direct you much more easily if you are already moving. Trust God to guide you and do the thing that is in front of you. If God wants you to change directions, He'll make sure that the new path is in front of you at the proper time.

Fr David Moser

[Jason Adams]

Perhaps God is speaking, but you aren't hearing because you are expecting something different that what He's giving you. Have you heard that old joke


Yes, I know this joke :-)



You don't need to "hear" an internal "voice of God" or to understand all the why's of how God works o plumb the depths of God's plan and see the end result.


What I have been struggling with are situations when I got stuck and really wanted guidance but I was left to my own devices and in some cases it turned Ok and in some cases it turned bad. At the time it looked like completely accidental to me.




There was a "holiness" preacher that I ran into back "in the day" who advocated a practice called "waiting on God". Fr David Moser


Some people (eg in Philokalia) seem to think that emptying your mind before God is the way to get his light and guidance. I have tried that but bearing in mind the above quote I couldn't wait any more so I had to make up my mind. There has always been conflicting messages from various Christian sources and this doesn't help me much.

Again, I am trying to understand why it doesn't work for me.

Christ be with you all.

[Antonios]

Dear Jason,

I would suggest you stop thinking it is not working for you. In fact, you should stop thinking you know anything at all other than how much God loves you. Stop making assumptions period and rather learn to stand in silence before Him, the God of all creation, in full remembrance of your sins and how unworthy you are to demand any sign or acknowledgment. Who are you to know where God is and isn't?

Opening the spiritual door of the heart to allow Christ to enter requires overcoming the passions through an ascetical life of fasting, praying, and almsgiving. Through such practice, we hone ourselves to become acceptable temples of the Holy Spirit. This is how we can approach God and enter into loving communion with Him.

Therefore, let us first concentrate on putting our house in order, making sure the oil lamps are full of oil, and be awake when He arrives to enter our dwelling. How He enters, we should leave to Him.

In Christ,
Antonios

[Father David Moser]

What I have been struggling with are situations when I got stuck and really wanted guidance but I was left to my own devices and in some cases it turned Ok and in some cases it turned bad. At the time it looked like completely accidental to me.

... bearing in mind the above quote I couldn't wait any more so I had to make up my mind. ...
Again, I am trying to understand why it doesn't work for me.


Who's to say it "didn't work for you"? Just because something didn't go smoothly or well or because you regret your decision doesn't mean it was wrong. These difficult times are the very opportunities given us by God to bring us into a place where we can grow and develop our souls properly. It's not so much about "What happened to me" as it is about how I respond to a given situation - did I respond with Christlike demeanor or did I fall into pride and sin. Life in this world will not be smooth, it will be full of difficulty and trial - all this comes to us as a tool upon which we can sharpen and hone our soul into the likeness of God or, if we respond with pride, as a means by which we are blunted and crushed (which then provides the opportunity for repentance and proper spiritual growth).

Fr David Moser

[Jason Adams]

Dear Father Moser,

From your reply I understand that whatever prayer you pray it is always up to God whether He responds or He doesn't.

In this case is there any use to pray for guidance when you need it? I understand that God may decide that He doesn't want to give it to me and that I should be beaten by cirscumstances for some reason.

I has been certainly my experience and I am wondering if it has been a waste of time and I should be praying Jesus Prayer or some other repentence prayer instead.

Am I correct?

Dear Antonios,

It is certainly something new to me.
Shall I stop thinking about God at all? I have been taught that I should be using my intellect when I think of God and His ways
Is that an Orthodox way?

Jason

[Father David Moser]

In this case is there any use to pray for guidance when you need it? I understand that God may decide that He doesn't want to give it to me and that I should be beaten by cirscumstances for some reason

Certainly you should pray for guidance and help in every thing that you do. What makes you think that "circumstance" is not an answer to prayer and the form in which God gives guidance to you?

Fr David Moser

[Peter S.]

Certainly you should pray for guidance and help in every thing that you do. What makes you think that "circumstance" is not an answer to prayer and the form in which God gives guidance to you?

Fr David Moser

That is something to think about for me too. For everybody I suppose.

Peter

[Herman Blaydoe]

Dear Father Moser,

From your reply I understand that whatever prayer you pray it is always up to God whether He responds or He doesn't.

In this case is there any use to pray for guidance when you need it? I understand that God may decide that He doesn't want to give it to me and that I should be beaten by circumstances for some reason.

A Prayer for the Beginning of the Day (Come to Me Prayer book)
O Lord, allow me to greet the coming day in peace. Help me in all things to rely on Your holy will. In every hour of the day, reveal Your will to me. Bless my dealings with all who surround me. Teach me to treat all that comes to me throughout the day with peace of soul, and with the firm conviction that Your will governs all. In what I do and say, guide my thoughts and feelings. In unexpected events, do not let me forget that all things are sent by You. Teach me to act firmly and wisely, without making others bitter or embarrassing them. Give me the strength to bear the fatigue of the coming day and everything that it will bring. Direct my will, teach me to pray, pray Yourself in me. Amen.


I has been certainly my experience and I am wondering if it has been a waste of time and I should be praying Jesus Prayer or some other repentence prayer instead.

No prayer is wasted.


Shall I stop thinking about God at all? I have been taught that I should be using my intellect when I think of God and His ways
Is that an Orthodox way?

Jason

Where would you want your wife? In your intellect or in your heart? Love is not an intellectual exercise. God is not a theory or an idea. Intellect is fine, but intellect is limited, sometimes we have to get beyond it. It is less about thinking about God and more about simply experiencing God. And we do that on HIS terms, not ours.

A Prayer Before Commencing Any Task from A Pocket Prayer Book
(sometimes called the Little Red Prayer Book)
Almighty God, our Help and and Refuge, Fountain of Wisdom and Tower of strength, who knows that I can do nothing without your guidance and help; assist me, I pray and direct me to divine wisdom and power, that I may accomplish this task, and whatever I may undertake to do, faithfully and diligently, according to Your will, so that it may be profitable to myself and others, and to the glory of Your Holy Name. For Yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit : now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

May I suggest you read the Psalms aloud? I guarantee you will hear God talking.

Just a little thought from a bear of little brain
Herman the Pooh

[Moses Anthony]

It is good for us to remember that the practice of prayer is a discipline. That is, it is something that develops as we engage with it ascetically.

The best way 'in' is often the way of obedience - which cultivates a mollifying of the will and heart, so that it learns what it is to hear, and how.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

"He makes the clouds His chariots. He walks upon the wings of the winds. He makes the winds his messengers, flaming fire His ministers."

We know that the winds have no physical voice, but if the above is true, then there's something being communicated to each one in the silence. Could it be, that; in the absence of any recognizable sound, what is being said, or communicated, is the presence of the Almighty! In which case then, that which we've already deemed to be our true problems answer, is left well, in the wind!

I think I mentioned "obedience" in my first post to this thread. to which I add: In our search for answers to the petitions we leave before the throne of God, we have an enemy who will stop at nothing to ruin us completely. In the search for which, he will even use silence, or an unrecognizable mode of communication from our God.

"Knock, (and keep on knocking) and IT SHALL be opened unto you, seek (and keep on seeking) and YOU SHALL find, ask (and keep on asking) and IT SHALL be given unto you."

I've used Matthew's quote because I think he's right.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Jason Adams]

Certainly you should pray for guidance and help in every thing that you do. What makes you think that "circumstance" is not an answer to prayer and the form in which God gives guidance to you?

Fr David Moser

Dear Father Moser,

I have been thinking about that most of my life.
Many times I made wrong decisions after praying and not receiving any clear answer that I could understand with my limited knowledge.
I have great difficulty accepting that my wrong decisions were in fact "circumstances" that were answers from God. How can that be? We rely on God to guide us and to help us in times of need. If God leaves me alone to make my own (wrong) decision how does it differ from not praying to God and making your own decision anyway?

Jason

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Jason,

It is no stretch to say that God arranges circumstances, He prophesies and brings to past that which He has foretold, all the while allowing for the free will of mankind. But understand one thing, as far as guidance (through prayer) is concerned, our benefit is a by product.

Remember when the nation of Israel sinned coming up out of Egypt, and God threatened to destroy them. Moses interceded, reminding God of his promises before the Egyptians, and his honor. The Psalmist King David in that Psalm well known (Psalm 23), said "...He leadeth me ... for His name's sake." Hearing God in prayer is extremely important; but, I sometimes wonder whether or not we miss the forest for the trees. That is; God the Creator of All, above and outside of it all, deigns to listen to, and speak with His creation! How do you quantify such mercy? What then does it matter if a raven, a whale, a spineless ruler, or the foal of a donkey should deliver God's message.

Whenever we love someone, the norm is to "spend time in their presence", without an agenda, without any preconceived requirements. We let the loved one be who they are; otherwise, the relationship will suffer, or possibly come to an end. If that is the case with men, how much more then should it be in our communion with the Father. The more time spent in the Fathers' presence (just to be there, that is worship, to kiss towards) the more we recognize the manners in which God speaks, and the method in which He deigns to commune with us personally.

Again, as Matthew has said, "Prayer is a discipline", obedience is our way in.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Father David Moser]

Many times I made wrong decisions after praying and not receiving any clear answer that I could understand with my limited knowledge.
I have great difficulty accepting that my wrong decisions were in fact "circumstances" that were answers from God. How can that be? We rely on God to guide us and to help us in times of need. If God leaves me alone to make my own (wrong) decision how does it differ from not praying to God and making your own decision anyway?

What makes you think these decisions were "wrong"? Did they make life more difficult, did you struggle because of them, do you have regrets about lost opportunities? There is nothing wrong about such decisions. Did they cause you to sin? Did you lose hope in Christ? Did they lead you away from Christ? The only "wrong" decision in life is the decision to pursue sin and thus reject Christ.

I have made a lot of "wrong decisions" in my life - that is decisions that brought me difficulty, decisions that I regret, decisions that in retrospect resulted in a "lost opportunity" and so on. But none of these were wrong decisions because they did not lead me away from Christ, but rather forced me to rely upon Him more and more. The only truly wrong decisions that I made were those which caused me to sin, which led me away from Christ - and in such cases the door of repentance is always open so that the grace of God redeems even my sin and draws me from the midst of error back onto the path of salvation. Did Peter make the "wrong decision" to come to Christ on the water? No, certainly not, it only became dangerous when he lost faith and began to sink, but even then our Lord was there to lift him up. But was it wrong? How could it be if the goal was to draw nearer to Christ.

It is necessary in evaluating our decisions to always have in mind the true goal and purpose of the Christian life. The true goal and purpose of the Christian life is to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Christ. That's it. There is nothing about the purpose of life that involves happiness or "fulfillment" or wealth or ease. There is only the cross. This life has nothing to do with happiness (but everything to do with joy), nothing to do with worldly possessions (but everything to do with possessing Christ), nothing to do with ease and comfort (but everything to do with struggle), nothing to do with personal fulfillment (but everything to do with being filled with the Holy Spirit). If, as a result of "wrong decisions" your life seems filled with sorrow, difficulty, struggle, and so on, then remember that it is most often these situations that push us towards dependence upon God's help for all things (even life itself) and which teach us to call out in prayer constantly asking for God's mercy. This may well be the quickest and most effective path to pursue for the working out of your salvation.

The goal and aim of the Christian life is, as St Seraphim instructs us, the acquisition of the Holy Spirit. Your choices should only be measured and judged in those terms, not in any worldly sense. (I would strongly recommending reading St Seraphim's conversation with N. Motovilov (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/wonderful.aspx)regarding the goal of the Christian life)

If you choose to follow a path that leads you away from Christ, then this is a "wrong decision" but if you choose to to follow a path that leads you closer to Christ, no matter what the worldly results of this choice, it is a right decision. You may not be "happy" or "fulfilled" or "wealthy" or "esteemed" but you will be acquiring the grace of the Holy Spirit and that is what counts.

Fr David Moser

[Jason Adams]

Dear father Moser and all,

I have read St Seraphim's conversation with N. Motovilov (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/wonderful.aspx)recently and had a good thought about it.
Yes, it would be wonderful to have such an experience and I certainly asked God many times to somehow speak, show or make Himself felt to me.
Unfortunately this hasn't been my experience ever and hasn't been an experience to people that I know and talked to. This is only a third-hand experience to me.

If God really speaks to humans it seems to me that he does it only to a chosen few. For the rest of us mere mortals it is the life of struggle without reward.

For some time I have been struggling with a notion that Christian life is the life full of guilt(I never know if I sinned or not), misery(as you said father, it's all about the cross) uncertainty(I never know what should be my next move that will be acceptable to God) and most of one's life(like one's values, interests, work, likes/dislikes) being worthless to God. It looks that the only thing worth doing is ascetism, forgetting about the world and prayer.

In that I can't find a place for joy. Ecclesiastes is telling us that man is born for misery and death and it doesn't seem to me that the Incarnation changed it in any way.

Sorry about pouring out my soul out, but I found that many people are thinking alike and if I dig deeper I discover that people who don't want to think about it, are deeply feeling the same thing. This is, in my opinion, one of the reasons why Christianity is no longer acceptable to a big part of our society.

Again I don't want to offend anyone. I just feel that this is important.

Jason

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Mr Adams,

My thanks for your recent post, which I read with interest. A few points in particular struck me:


I have read St Seraphim's conversation with N. Motovilov (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/wonderful.aspx)recently and had a good thought about it. Yes, it would be wonderful to have such an experience and I certainly asked God many times to somehow speak, show or make Himself felt to me. Unfortunately this hasn't been my experience ever and hasn't been an experience to people that I know and talked to. This is only a third-hand experience to me.

One of the challenges, in reading the accounts of great transfigurations such as that encountered in the meeting of St Seraphim and young Nikolai, is that our fascination can be captured by the miraculous of the event -- a sign given to aid us in our infirmity, to provoke us in our lethargy -- and become distracted from the nature of the prayer itself. What was significant in that encounter was not the radiant light, the visible glory of God's energies; what was significant was the real presence of the Holy Spirit, transfiguring the heart of the saint and disciple alike. St Seraphim's prayer only enabled Nikolai to see with new eyes what was already a reality: God is present, transforming the heart. Too often we read this and desire the miraculous vision, rather than the substance of its message: the quiet of interior communion.

It is worth our remembering that the fathers rather consistently counsel against the seeking after of visions. We are to combat our expectations that true prayer is visionary prayer; that God is only 'answering' when and if one sees a divine light, hears a divine voice. We are called to remember the words of Christ, 'You have believed because you have seen; but blessed are those who have not seen, yet still believe'. The vision is not the foundation of reality. It can be a confirmation, when we are weak and it would be beneficial (two important criteria to take together, not in exclusion: there are many times when we are weak, but when a vision would certainly not be beneficial, given our spiritual state, expectations, etc.) - but fundamentally, God is 'everywhere present and filling all things', constantly responding to prayer at every moment. Our struggle is often not with God, but with our own expectations and wills. We want God to respond in a certain way; when he does not, we deem him inactive, not present. The voice of the fathers is that God uses this for good, often precisely by not meeting those expectations, so that we learn to engage with prayer beyond them, at a far deeper level. It is the devil who takes those expectations, meets them with visions and the like, and so reinforces our own delusion and weakness.

There is a freedom in prayer, a profound joy, that comes from releasing our hearts and minds from the shackles we place on God by our expectations of how he will hear, how he will respond. With those in place, prayer can become dull, lifeless, depressing, defeating. But when they are loosed and removed, prayer opens itself up.



For some time I have been struggling with a notion that Christian life is the life full of guilt(I never know if I sinned or not), misery(as you said father, it's all about the cross) uncertainty(I never know what should be my next move that will be acceptable to God) and most of one's life(like one's values, interests, work, likes/dislikes) being worthless to God. It looks that the only thing worth doing is ascetism, forgetting about the world and prayer.

In that I can't find a place for joy. Ecclesiastes is telling us that man is born for misery and death and it doesn't seem to me that the Incarnation changed it in any way.


Here is where the incarnation is at its most mysterious, and its most beautiful. You have characterised life being 'all about the cross' with it being full 'misery'; but in fact, the testimony of the Church is that the cross brings not misery but joy. 'Through the cross, joy has come into all the world'. Society tells us, and will always tell us, that suffering is intrinsically an evil; but in Christianity, it is transformed. It can still be an evil, and we must never pretend all forms and kinds of suffering are holy and transformative; but the authentic suffering of the cross is a suffering that creates joy, not despondency. One enters more fully, more willingly, into this sacrifice, not because it is a deeper vale of misery, but because it is a gateway into most profound love.

Terms such as 'suffering', 'guilt', 'asceticism' and the like are easy to misinterpret, since we most often 'read' them from a secular standpoint, in which they are morose, sullen, 'down' and the opposites of joy, happiness, etc. But each of these has a peculiar meaning in Christianity, which is always tied into the life and joy of Pascha. Suffering on its own is a thing of death and destruction; but linked to Pascha is a gateway to joy. Asceticism on its own is a disastrous perversion of the good of creation; but linked to Pascha is the ultimate affirmation of creation's goodness, its beauty, and its redemption. 'Guilt' in its own is an indulgent manifestation of gloom and despondency; but linked to Pascha is ultimately a confession of reality, and reality transformed.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Father David Moser]

I have read St Seraphim's conversation with N. Motovilov (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/wonderful.aspx)recently and had a good thought about it.
Yes, it would be wonderful to have such an experience and I certainly asked God many times to somehow speak, show or make Himself felt to me.

You missed the point of why I made reference to that particular narrative. The thing that I had hoped you could take from it was the content of St Seraphim's words about the way we live our lives in the presence of God, how we go about acquiring the grace of the Holy Spirit. The miraculous nature surrounding the conversation, the light, the warmth, etc, only serves to demonstrate the spiritual results of such a life in a physically perceptible manner - it is not by any means the main message here.

In thinking about Fr Matthew's words about the nature of prayer, I am reminded that prayer is not by any means a passive activity. It is work. If you are not working at prayer, then you may not actually be engaged in prayer. To this end I would suggest that in learning to pray we follow the direction of those who have become masters of the art. The Philokalia is all about prayer, but I must say that for the most part it describes the "deep end" of the pool and is not necessarily appropriate for those of us novices who are still wading in the shallow end. We need elementary and basic instruction and to practice and master that before we move into the deeper and more intense prayer. To that end, I highly recommend the instruction of St Theophan the Recluse on prayer (http://www.monachos.net/library/Theophan_the_Recluse%2C_Four_Homilies_on_Prayer) (found in the patristics libary on this site). I know that simple "standing before God" can indeed be laborious and anything but passive, however, it is beyond the ability of many of us. St Theophan's instructions on prayer are simple basic and attainable even by the newest novice among us.

Fr David Moser

[Father David Moser]

It is worth our remembering that the fathers rather consistently counsel against the seeking after of visions. We are to combat our expectations that true prayer is visionary prayer; that God is only 'answering' when and if one sees a divine light, hears a divine voice.

This is certainly true. If one goes into pray expecting, desiring, hoping for an "experience" rather than for Christ, then it is very possible that an "experience" is what he will get - but it will be an experience from the evil one intent upon deception. OTOH, if you expect the "experience" and don't get it, then the evil one will tempt you to despair - so he wins either way.

Fr David Moser