Meaning of 'all who take up the sword will die by the sword' (Matthew 26.51-54)?

[Paul]

What did Jesus mean when He said "...all who take up the sword, will die by the sword"?

[Antonios]

Dear Paul,

Excellent question! I hope someone can provide a patristic quote..?

In Christ,
Antonios

[Moses Ibrahim]

And Behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He shall immediately set beside Me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? (Matthew 26:51-54)

This is what St. Theophylact has to say:

Peter was the one who drew the sword, as John says. For he had a sword, having just recently sacrificed the lamb which they ate. But let us not condemn Peter, for it was not on his own behalf, but for his Master, that he acted so zealously. But the Lord converts Peter to the evangelic life lived according to the Gospel, teaching man not to use the sword, not even when presuming to avenge God. Peter cuts off the ear, signifying that the Jews suffered from the infirmity of deafness in that they would neither hear nor heed. Then Christ gives the dictum of the law, that he who slays will himself be slain. For the law says that "they who take the sword shall perish with the sword". (see Genesis 9:6 and Jeremiah 15:2) He implies that the Jews who take up the sword against Him will be destroyed by the sword of the Romans. He did not say, "I can bring to My side twelve legions of angels," but "I can pray to My Father," speaking by divine dispensation as a man, out of consideration for their weakness. By sweat, by fear, and in many ways did He show His human nature. For His words would not have seemed plausible if He had said, "I Myself can bring angels to My side." Instead of the twelves disciples, He says "Twelve contingents of angels would stand beside Me if I so desired." The legion is the largest military contingent, consisting of six thousand horsemen. All these things must be, He says, in order to fulfill the Scriptures which had foretold them. The Jews were not wicked because the Scriptures had foretold that they would be; rather these events were described in the Scriptures beforehand by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit because the Jews would do these things of their own evil will.

[Effie Ganatsios]

http://www.incommunion.org/articles/essays/orthodox-christians-and-conscientious-objection

The above article is interesting and gives an analysis of Christ's words.

http://www.incommunion.org/articles/the-orthodox-church-and-society/viii

this is from the above site :

When St. Cyril Equal-to-the-Apostles was sent by the Patriarch of Constantinople to preach the gospel among the Saracens, in their capital city he had to enter into a dispute about faith with Muhamaddan scholars. Among others, they asked him: “Your God is Christ. He commanded you to pray for enemies, to do good to those who hate and persecute you and to offer the other cheek to those who hit you, but what do you actually do? If anyone offends you, you sharpen your sword and go into battle and kill. Why do you not obey your Christ?” Having heard this, St. Cyril asked his fellow-polemists: “If there are two commandments written in one law, who will be its best respecter — the one who obeys only one commandment or the one who obeys both?” When the Hagerenes said that the best respecter of law is the one who obeys both commandments, the holy preacher continued: “Christ is our God Who ordered us to pray for our offenders and to do good to them. He also said that no one of us can show greater love in life than he who gives his life for his friends (Jn. 15:3). That is why we generously endure offences caused us as private people. But in company we defend one another and give our lives in battle for our neighbours, so that you, having taken our fellows prisoners, could not imprison their souls together with their bodies by forcing them into renouncing their faith and into godless deeds. Our Christ-loving soldiers protect our Holy Church with arms in their hands. They safeguard the sovereign in whose sacred person they respect the image of the rule of the Heavenly King. They safeguard their land because with its fall the home authority will inevitably fall too and the evangelical faith will be shaken. These are precious pledges for which soldiers should fight to the last. And if they give their lives in battlefield, the Church will include them in the community of the holy martyrs and call them intercessors before God”.

VIII. 3. “They that take the sword shall perish with the sword” (Mt. 26:52). These words of the Saviour justify the idea of just war. From the Christian perspective, the conception of moral justice in international relations should be based on the following basic principles: love of one’s neighbours, people and Fatherland; understanding of the needs of other nations; conviction that it is impossible to serve one’s country by immoral means. These three principles defined the ethical limits of war established by Christendom in the Middle Ages when, adjusting to reality, people tried to curb the elements of military violence. Already at that time, people believed that war should be waged according to certain rules and that a fighting man should not lose his morality, forgetting that his enemy is a human being too."


We have had similar discussions in the past and came to no conclusion. I know that Orthodox monks were the first to go into battle against the Turks in recent Greek history. They killed muslims in the name of freedom. We were not the aggressors but were defending our homeland.

In WWII while monks did not kill by the sword they did resist bravely e.g. Archbishop Damaskinos pitted himself against the Nazis in defence of Greek Jews :

"Nazi Occupation
Damaskinos worked very hard to live up to his position during those difficult years. He frequently clashed with the German authorities and the quisling government. In 1943, the Germans began the persecution of the Jews of Greece, and their deportations to Nazi concentration camps. Damaskinos formally protested the actions of the occupational authorities.

According to the The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation the appeal of Damaskinos and his fellow Greeks is unique as no document similar to the protest against the Nazis during World War II has come to light in any other European country.

The letter in part reads:

"The Greek Orthodox Church and the Academic World of Greek People Protest against the Persecution... The Greek people were... deeply grieved to learn that the German Occupation Authorities have already started to put into effect a program of gradual deportation of the Greek Jewish community... and that the first groups of deportees are already on their way to Poland... "According to the terms of the armistice, all Greek citizens, without distinction of race or religion, were to be treated equally by the Occupation Authorities. The Greek Jews have proven themselves... valuable contributors to the economic growth of the country [and] law-abiding citizens who fully understand their duties as Greeks. They have made sacrifices for the Greek country, and were always on the front lines of the struggle of the Greek nation to defend its inalienable historical rights... "In our national consciousness, all the children of Mother Greece are an inseparable unity: they are equal members of the national body irrespective of religion... Our holy religion does not recognize superior or inferior qualities based on race or religion, as it is stated: 'There is neither Jew nor Greek' and thus condemns any attempt to discriminate or create racial or religious differences. Our common fate both in days of glory and in periods of national misfortune forged inseparable bonds between all Greek citizens, without exemption, irrespective of race... "Today we are... deeply concerned with the fate of 60,000 of our fellow citizens who are Jews... we have lived together in both slavery and freedom, and we have come to appreciate their feelings, their brotherly attitude, their economic activity, and most important, their indefectible patriotism..."[1]


Damaskinos went on to publish the letter, even though the local SS commander threatened to execute him by firing squad. Damaskinos's famous response to him was: "According to the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church, our prelates are hung and not shot. Please respect our traditions!"[2]}}

At one point he was required by the Nazis to produce a list of citizens to be shot in response to the killing of a German soldier. Damaskinos gave them a list of Greek bishops with his name at the top of the list. The executions were not carried out.

The churches under his jurisdiction were also ordered quietly by Damaskinos to distribute baptismal certificates to Jews fleeing the Nazis, saving thousands of Romaniote Jews in and around Athens. "

Archbishop Damaskinos fought according to Jesus' words : not by the sword. The monks during the Greek revolution fought by the sword. Both were effective. Which method was right?

I'd be interested in other examples of how the Orthodox interpret and act on Jesus' words.

effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

"among saints venerated by the orthodox church, many became famous for the love of their earthly homeland and faithfulness to it. russian hagiographic sources praise the holy prince michael of tver who 'gave his life for his fatherland', comparing his feat to the martyrdom of the holy protomartyr dimitrius of thessaloniki: 'The good lover of his fatherland said about his native city of Thessaloniki, 'o lord, if you ruin this city, i will perish together with it, but if you save it, i will also be saved''.

in all times the church has called upon her children to love their homeland on earth and not to spare their lives to protect it if it was threatened. the russian church on many occasions gave her blessing to the people for them to take part in liberation wars. thus, in 1380, the venerable sergius the abbot and miracle-maker of radonezh blessed the russian troops headed by the holy prince dimitry donskoy before their battle with the tartar-mongol invaders. in 1612, st. hermogen, patriarch of moscow and all russia, gave blessing upon the irregulars in their struggle with the polish invaders. in 1813, during the war with the french aggressors, st. philaret of moscow said to his flock: 'If you avoid dying for the honour and freedom of the Fatherland, you will die a criminal or a slave; die for the faith and the Fatherland and you will be granted life and a crown in heaven'. "

The above is from http://www.russianchurchusa.org/index.php3?mode=1318&id=2110&ln=en

[Paul]

Thank you very much for that Effie.

It still doesn't quite make sense of Jesus's words though to me.

Jesus seemed to be rebuking Peter didn't He?
And next says that He could call His Angels if He so pleased.

In some ways I can see the good of Peter's actions in that He was willing to defend Jesus, but they had just before rather let sleep overtake them than be on guard for Him, and they did all flee, and he did deny Him.
So it could be found they lacked even this courage and love to be prepared to lay down their lives for Him, their spirits may well have been willing, but was it they were yet still weak in flesh, even in sleep, and fear for ones life and persecution?

Was Jesus' words maybe again leading them in courage, and devotion and love, of which maybe taking up the sword should be in, as maybe has been described Effie in your last post?

Was His words of those who take up the sword will perish by the sword, not a rebuke against taking up the sword as I had once thought, which seems to be contradictory, but maybe as that is then your battle, and taking up the sword is to be certianly prepared to die by the sword isn't it?
But could it be compared to the cross, as to those who take up their cross and follow Him, as to be prepared and ready and willing to this martydom?

Was it maybe even to do with their deaths, and the following of Him, but which maybe can even be as a soldier can it for others, but not what His disciples were called for?

I have thought on turning the other cheek also which is related to this, but I will post another thread on that.

Thanks again Effie, that was most helpful, please don't hesitate to correct me if I've spoke in any error.

[Herman Blaydoe]

How you live may indeed influence how you die.

If you go around killing people, somebody will feel obliged to return the favor.

It is a simple recognition that what we do will have consequences.

Or so it seems to this simple mind.

Herman the Pooh, Master of the Obvious.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thank you very much for that Effie.

It still doesn't quite make sense of Jesus's words though to me.

Jesus seemed to be rebuking Peter didn't He?
And next says that He could call His Angels if He so pleased.

In some ways I can see the good of Peter's actions in that He was willing to defend Jesus, but they had just before rather let sleep overtake them than be on guard for Him, and they did all flee, and he did deny Him.
So it could be found they lacked even this courage and love to be prepared to lay down their lives for Him, their spirits may well have been willing, but was it they were yet still weak in flesh, even in sleep, and fear for ones life and persecution?

Was Jesus' words maybe again leading them in courage, and devotion and love, of which maybe taking up the sword should be in, as maybe has been described Effie in your last post?

Was His words of those who take up the sword will perish by the sword, not a rebuke against taking up the sword as I had once thought, which seems to be contradictory, but maybe as that is then your battle, and taking up the sword is to be certianly prepared to die by the sword isn't it?
But could it be compared to the cross, as to those who take up their cross and follow Him, as to be prepared and ready and willing to this martydom?

Was it maybe even to do with their deaths, and the following of Him, but which maybe can even be as a soldier can it for others, but not what His disciples were called for?

I have thought on turning the other cheek also which is related to this, but I will post another thread on that.

Thanks again Effie, that was most helpful, please don't hesitate to correct me if I've spoke in any error.

Paul, I have to admit that this subject is one that always confuses me as well. I included examples of both types of resistance in my post because even monks seem to be confused about just what Jesus meant.

On the surface His words seems to mean that there is a better way to solve conflicts than by fighting. The Orthodox church though seems to be saying that in certain circumstances violence is permitted. If you read the whole article in one of the links I posted you would also see that even though killing is sometimes permitted, it has to exist within certain boundaries i.e. pray for your enemy's soul, do nothing beyond what is required to defend yourself or your country - killing women and children for example is always wrong.

"Among obvious signs pointing to the equity or inequity of a warring party are its war methods and attitude towards its war prisoners and the civilians of the opposite side, especially children, women and elderly. Even in the defence from an aggression, every kind of evil can be done, making one’s spiritual and moral stand not superior to that of the aggressor. War should be waged with righteous indignation, not maliciousness, greed and last (1 Jn. 2:16) and other fruits of hell. A war can be correctly assessed as a feat or a robbery only after an analysis is made of the moral state of the warring parties. “Rejoice not over thy greatest enemy being dead, but remember that we die all”, Holy Scriptures says (Sirach 8:8). Christian humane attitude to the wounded and war prisoners is based on the words of St. Paul: “If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink; for so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good” (Rom. 12:21-22)."



"In defining just war, the Western Christian tradition, which goes back to St. Augustine, usually puts forward a number of conditions on which war in one’s own or others’ territory is admissible. They are as follows:

war is declared for the restoration of justice;
war is declared only by the legitimate authority;
force is used not by individuals or groups but by representatives of the civil authorities established from above;
war is declared only after all peaceful means have been used to negotiate with the opposite party and to restore the prior situation;
war is declared only if there are well-grounded expectations that the established goals will be achieved;
the planned military losses and destruction will correspond to the situation and the purposes of war (the principal of proportionate means);
during war civilians will be protected against direct hostilities;
war may be justified only by the desire to restore law and order. "

The above are from http://www.incommunion.org/articles/the-orthodox-church-and-society/viii

Effie

[Andreas Moran]

St Sergius of Radonezh only gave his blessing to Prince Dmitri Donskoy to go to war after being satisfied that all efforts to negotiate peace had failed.


"In defining just war, the Western Christian tradition, which goes back to St. Augustine, usually puts forward a number of conditions on which war in one’s own or others’ territory is admissible. They are as follows:

war is declared for the restoration of justice;
war is declared only by the legitimate authority;
force is used not by individuals or groups but by representatives of the civil authorities established from above;
war is declared only after all peaceful means have been used to negotiate with the opposite party and to restore the prior situation;
war is declared only if there are well-grounded expectations that the established goals will be achieved;
the planned military losses and destruction will correspond to the situation and the purposes of war (the principal of proportionate means);
during war civilians will be protected against direct hostilities;
war may be justified only by the desire to restore law and order. "

Hmm - doesn't seem to fit Iraq!

[Paul Cowan]

St Sergius of Radonezh only gave his blessing to Prince Dmitri Donskoy to go to war after being satisfied that all efforts to negotiate peace had failed.



Hmm - doesn't seem to fit Iraq!

ummm, Andreas...This will take us way off course of the intent of this website. But as Rambo said, "they drew first blood".

Now we just have to find an end to it. Though we both know that will never happen.

[Andreas Moran]

Yes, better not get on to Iraq, though my International Law colleagues are sure it was not legal. And PM Blair lied to us - or somebody lied to him. They coined an expression for lying here a while back - 'being economical with the truth'. Oh, well - I'm just going to the mirror - think I can feel a beam or something in my eye . . .

[Effie Ganatsios]

Andreas, I think by now everyone in the world knows why this monstrous mess happened. As you say though, it is best not to get into it here on this website. In the past we were less cautious and suffered for it.

Effie