'Only' seven elders in Russia

[John W.]

A monk in one of Elder Ephraim's monasteries told me that a visiting Russian monk told him how America is blessed to have a Staretz of such spiritual stature and that Russia "only" has seven of these kind of Elders. The monk who told me that he was amused at the use of the word "only." If only we were so blessed in this country!

I asked this monk if he asked the Russian monk, "Who are these Elders?" He didn't.

Does anyone know who these modern day startsi are?

John

[Andrew]

Andreas has mentioned Elder Anthony of Holy Trinity Sergiev Posad quite a bit.

[Yuri Zharikov]

A monk in one of Elder Ephraim's monasteries told me that a visiting Russian monk told him how America is blessed to have a Staretz of such spiritual stature and that Russia "only" has seven of these kind of Elders. The monk who told me that he was amused at the use of the word "only." If only we were so blessed in this country!

I asked this monk if he asked the Russian monk, "Who are these Elders?" He didn't.

Does anyone know who these modern day startsi are?

John

Archm. Kirill (Pavlov) will be one of them. Yura

[Andrew]

Is Elder Raphael of Valaam still alive?

[Andreas Moran]

Andreas has mentioned Elder Anthony of Holy Trinity Sergiev Posad quite a bit.


Sorry - you mean Staretz Kyrill (to whom Yuri refers).

[Seda S.]

Frankly speaking, I'm a little astonished at this question. I'm a member also of other but Russian speaking Orhtodox forums one of which is the biggest forum on www.kuraev.ru (http://www.kuraev.ru). I have never read about modern Russian staretses in those forums, believe me. Only about Ioann Krestiankin people speak as of a starets and he is not alive. And even about him they don't speak much. Once a man asked a question about modern staretses in Russia, and the answer, given by the priest Alexander Pikalev, was this:

'Ïðè òàêîì îáèëèè ñâÿòîîòå÷åñêèõ íàñòàâëåíèé, êîòîðûå ÿâëÿþòñÿ íåïðåðåêàåìûì àâòîðèòåòîì, ïîèñê ñîâðåìåííûõ "ñòàðöåâ" äåëî íåáëàãîäàðíîå è âåñüìà ðèñêîâàííîå â äóõîâíîì ïëàíå'.

(http://kuraev.ru/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=63&topic=56968.msg594734;topicseen#msg594734)

translated:

'Having so abundant instructions by the Holy Fathers which are unquestionable authority, seeking modern 'staretses' is an ungrateful and spiritually a very risky thing.'

And no one else in that thread answered this question about modern Russian staretses.

In another forum also, which is dedicated mainly to the practice of the Jesus prayer, Hesychasm and monastic practices generally, from time to time people come and ask about staretses, and, alas, silence... Some Russians, not being able to find those staretses in Russia, leave it and go to Greece and Mount Athos.

So no one in Russia knows about seven or 'only' seven staretses. I myself am very interested to know about them. I'll go to my spiritual brothers and sisters in those Russian forums and give them 'blagovest', telling them about their staretses whom neither their clergy, nor believers know...

[Nina]

'Having so abundant instructions by the Holy Fathers which are unquestionable authority, seeking modern 'staretses' is an ungrateful and spiritually a very risky thing.'



Yes that is also told by some contemporary Elders. However this is totally different subject from the question if there are seven Elders in Russia.

In any case. I have no idea about such things but from what my spiritual father has told me about saintly elders in our times:

Elder Paisios was told that some people said that there are no holy people anymore in Mount Athos in our times. Elder Paisios said "Do not believe those words. Those are from the Evil One that wants to bring despondency to our believers! Only in these area here [and he pointed the area surrounding his cell in Mount Athos] there are many pillars from here to Heaven. Some of them choose not to be revealed to the world."

And the talk with my spiritual father revolved around this subject (we were several people talking). And he told us that there are many holy people in the world. Some we know, some we do not because for some it is the will of God not to be known and for some to be known so to encourage and help many people in the salvation. Some are so holy that they are even invisible because they have become ethereal and live in deserts. Through their (exceptionally high quality) prayers the world revolves still. When these people cease being produced the end of the world will come.

Plus what do people like myself, know? What do we know and can judge about? Human history tells how we mistreated, vilified, defamed many saints because we had no idea they were such. The saints who were Fools for Christ, also Saint Vitalis for example, Saint Nectarios etc.

[Andreas Moran]

Seda - be in no doubt: Archimandrite Kyrill (Pavlov) is a staretz.

[Andrew]

Sorry - you mean Staretz Kyrill (to whom Yuri refers).

Ah, sorry! Thank you for that correction.

[Yuri Zharikov]

Seda - be in no doubt: Archimandrite Kyrill (Pavlov) is a staretz.

The other two elders maybe Frs. Ilij (Optina) and Iona (Dormition of Theotokos Monastery in Odessa) - do not know their last names off the top of my head.

The crowd at kuraev.ru may not be representative...

Yura

[Seda S.]

The crowd at kuraev.ru may not be representative...
Yura

OK, Yuri, if your brothers and sisters in faith, also priests and hieromonks are crowd, then I don't have anything to add about it. I may say only that even if that priest from the 'crowd' was strict in his words or exaggerating something, I think he had some reason for it. Perhaps he knew something. Especially that no other priest, hieromonk or a believer corrected him. Yes, from the Russian Orthodox 'crowd', I forgot to add that nice word.

***
Dear Nina, at all times, in every place God who is not some dead 'god', but the Life Himself and vivifier of all, has His beloved ones, alive as He is, His chosen vessels, both renown still in this life, to illumine others, and unknown, maybe living with us, beside us (who knows?). But not always it is possible to know correctly who is who in this life. At least, we should be careful. It is impossible to hide the light if God Himself does not do it for some purpose. Do you remember the light of St Seraphim of Sarov and many others in Russia? Their light was not hidden at all and would spread to many places and no 'crowd' could hide it. What human being is able to hide the light and fire which is lit by God Himself? But now we are just guessing who can be a starets in Russia.

***
Thank you, Andreas, I'll try to find out more about Archimandrite Kyrill Pavlov.

[Andreas Moran]

When, some fourteen years ago, my wife was at a point of great difficulty and importance in her life, practical and spiritual, and sensing advice she had been given was not right, she was advised by a friend to visit the Holy Trinity St Sergius Lavra and consult Fr Vassilisk. He agreed to help her but there was opposition from the senior Fathers of the Lavra because Fr Vassilisk is only a couple of years older than Lydia and there were obvious concerns. There was an impasse and so it was decided to refer the matter to Staretz Kyrill. The Staretz blessed Fr V. to help Lydia and be her spiritual father, and the other Fathers ceased their opposition. FR V. then gave her advice which was the opposite of all she had been told by the other she had consulted previously. She asked what would have happened if she had followed the advice of that other. Fr V. replied, 'you would have perished, physically and spiritually'. So, I believe Staretz Kyrill saved her life.

[Seda S.]

Dear Andreas, I'm very happy that Fr Kyrill saved the life of your wife. But there were no Fr Kyrill, do you think God would leave your wife to suffer and would not arise even a 'donkey of Balaam' to give the correct advice to your wife?

I read about Fr Kyrill. There is something that confuses me, really. It does not concern particularly Fr Kyrill. In these last years both in Russia, and influenced by Russians, also in my country, there were divisions among the believers, noise and rumors, and all this mess arose because of some cards (TIN, ITN or I don't know how to call them correctly in English). Because some elders (also Fr Kyrill) spoke of those cards as of something from evil sources, many people would think that those numbers on the cards would mean they have renounced the Lord Christ. I remember one of the sermons of Fr Ioann Krestiankin who, unlike the others, told people that in reality those numbers cannot harm our souls and we shouldn't be afraid of them. That in reality satan's work is that he makes such messes and takes peace away from people's hearts. So, two staretses or renowned spiritual personalities of Russia give different advice and have different views on the same matter. I myself couldn't and cannot understand how some cards or numbers can affect my faith if no one demands me to renounce my Lord and no one even prohibits me to continue my worship to my God. So, in this respect, I cannot accept the advice and view of Fr Kyrill. May God give him a long life and may he help many other women and men in their spiritual life.

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Seda,

I don't know about these cards - I'll ask.

[Andreas Moran]

But there were no Fr Kyrill, do you think God would leave your wife to suffer and would not arise even a 'donkey of Balaam' to give the correct advice to your wife?

Interesting question: it is tempting but ultimately futile to speculate about alternatives to events which happen. I remain thankful that Staretz Kyrill helped in the way he did.

[Yuri Zharikov]

Dear Andreas, I'm very happy that Fr Kyrill saved the life of your wife. But there were no Fr Kyrill, do you think God would leave your wife to suffer and would not arise even a 'donkey of Balaam' to give the correct advice to your wife?

I read about Fr Kyrill. There is something that confuses me, really. It does not concern particularly Fr Kyrill. In these last years both in Russia, and influenced by Russians, also in my country, there were divisions among the believers, noise and rumors, and all this mess arose because of some cards (TIN, ITN or I don't know how to call them correctly in English). Because some elders (also Fr Kyrill) spoke of those cards as of something from evil sources, many people would think that those numbers on the cards would mean they have renounced the Lord Christ. I remember one of the sermons of Fr Ioann Krestiankin who, unlike the others, told people that in reality those numbers cannot harm our souls and we shouldn't be afraid of them. That in reality satan's work is that he makes such messes and takes peace away from people's hearts. So, two staretses or renowned spiritual personalities of Russia give different advice and have different views on the same matter. I myself couldn't and cannot understand how some cards or numbers can affect my faith if no one demands me to renounce my Lord and no one even prohibits me to continue my worship to my God. So, in this respect, I cannot accept the advice and view of Fr Kyrill. May God give him a long life and may he help many other women and men in their spiritual life.

These personal identification numbers of tax payers (INN in Russian) - many in the church saw and still seen them as prototypes of the seal of antichrist. What was particularly disturbing was that people were forced to take the numbers (either INN or no pension) which resounded strongly with the Book of Revelations. Thus all the mess,

Yura

[Yuri Zharikov]

OK, Yuri, if your brothers and sisters in faith, also priests and hieromonks are crowd, then I don't have anything to add about it. I may say only that even if that priest from the 'crowd' was strict in his words or exaggerating something, I think he had some reason for it. Perhaps he knew something. Especially that no other priest, hieromonk or a believer corrected him. Yes, from the Russian Orthodox 'crowd', I forgot to add that nice word.

***
Seda,
Please forgive me for upsetting you, but your post just confirms what I'd said. A hieromonk hanging out on an internet forum is probably not reprsentative of all hieromonks found in Russia. From my experience with other forums, same can be said about priests and lay believers.

In the Lord,
Yura

[Andreas Moran]

Thanks, Yuri.

I think the difference in opinion between the two startzi is not troubling - it is a question of emphasis and degree. The creeping towards the time when without doubt we must refuse the sign on our hands or foreheads is incremental , and each incrememental step must be the work of the evil one, softening up people for the real thing. Thus, 'chip and pin' (they make it sound like a quaint old pub game, don't they?) is a step towards the mark but is not the mark and we use this system. When biometric passports came in, the Lavra Fathers asked Staretz Kyrill what he tought about them. He said he would not have one but each person had to decide for himself but he did not say they were the mark. (Indeed he has given blessings for travel abroad.) These things need a discerning 'weather eye' so that we are not ensnared unawares when the real thing comes along.

[Nina]

Dear Nina, at all times, in every place God who is not some dead 'god', but the Life Himself and vivifier of all, has His beloved ones, alive as He is, His chosen vessels, both renown still in this life, to illumine others, and unknown, maybe living with us, beside us (who knows?). But not always it is possible to know correctly who is who in this life. At least, we should be careful. It is impossible to hide the light if God Himself does not do it for some purpose. Do you remember the light of St Seraphim of Sarov and many others in Russia? Their light was not hidden at all and would spread to many places and no 'crowd' could hide it. What human being is able to hide the light and fire which is lit by God Himself? But now we are just guessing who can be a starets in Russia.


Hi Seda, I never said we can hide the light. I just said that there are many modern holy people who are not known. I just said what my spiritual father told me. My spiritual father was the spiritual son of Elder Paisios and he knew many things from the Elder.

And actually all my explanation was because you said that you never heard about modern holy people in Russia. And now you say we do not know who is who. Which is also what I believe and also what I said in my previous post.

Since I am not holy I can't know holy. But those who are the vessel of the Holy Spirit can recognize each other and others.

Do you remember the instance when the spiritual son of St. Seraphim of Sarov asked the Saint how can he know if he has the Holy Spirit? The Saint's face shone like the sun. The spiritual son asked what happened to the saint's face and Saint Seraphim smiled and said: "You have the Holy Spirit because if you did not, you could not have seen this light. Your face also shone."

But alas, for people like myself this is not possible and 'do not judge' seems more the appropriate thing to do for me. Since Elder Porphyrios mentioned that we do not judge only in a negative way but also if we say 'such and such is a saint", I refrain from saying my opinion about who is a saint. So I try with all my might to follow these advices, but I fail 99.9% of the time. However if my spiritual father tells me an advise he heard from his spiritual father, I will trust him. And according to that there are many holy people (elders, gerondas, staretzs, or other categories like the married ones) in our world (that includes Russia too) and times. When they cease to exist and there are no more, the world will cease revolving.

[Nina]

P.S And the word 'crowd' is not a derogatory one. As you see Yuri lives in Canada; and in this continent people of our generation use the word 'crowd' in a casual way and it is not meant in a offensive, or debasing manner. This is a word that has evolved and is part of a more neutral territory at the present.

[John W.]

Dear Andreas, I'm very happy that Fr Kyrill saved the life of your wife. But there were no Fr Kyrill, do you think God would leave your wife to suffer and would not arise even a 'donkey of Balaam' to give the correct advice to your wife?

I read about Fr Kyrill. There is something that confuses me, really. It does not concern particularly Fr Kyrill. In these last years both in Russia, and influenced by Russians, also in my country, there were divisions among the believers, noise and rumors, and all this mess arose because of some cards (TIN, ITN or I don't know how to call them correctly in English). Because some elders (also Fr Kyrill) spoke of those cards as of something from evil sources, many people would think that those numbers on the cards would mean they have renounced the Lord Christ. I remember one of the sermons of Fr Ioann Krestiankin who, unlike the others, told people that in reality those numbers cannot harm our souls and we shouldn't be afraid of them. That in reality satan's work is that he makes such messes and takes peace away from people's hearts. So, two staretses or renowned spiritual personalities of Russia give different advice and have different views on the same matter. I myself couldn't and cannot understand how some cards or numbers can affect my faith if no one demands me to renounce my Lord and no one even prohibits me to continue my worship to my God. So, in this respect, I cannot accept the advice and view of Fr Kyrill. May God give him a long life and may he help many other women and men in their spiritual life.

Seda, what did you read about Archimandrite Kyrill and where did you find it? Here's what I read:

THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION TO DISCUSS INN PROBLEM
NTV, 8 February, 2001
A session of the Theological Commission of RPTs will be devoted to examination of the problems of the Taxpayer Identification Number (INN), "Blagovest-info" agency reports. In addition to the permanent members of the commission, the session will include numerous invited consultants and experts from the faculties of Moscow and St. Petersburg ecclesiastical schools as well as from the St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Institute. Special attention to the upcoming session of the Theological Commission is drawn by the participation in it of the authoritative spiritual leaders, monks of the St. Sergius Holy Trinity lavra Archimandrite Kirill and Archimandrite Naum. Representatives of the Russian Ministry for Taxes and Duties also will participate.
In the opinion of the majority of experts, the decision of the Theological Commission on the INN question will be positive, inasmuch as Patriarch Alexis II earlier had formulated a general church position on this question and at the time of his last meeting the the minister for taxes and duties, Gennady Bukaev, he agreed that INN will not be applied to the physical face but to the "personal account" of the taxpayer.

According to the superior of the Moscow Presentation monastery, Archimandrite Tikhon, a positive assessment of INN also has been given by such well known spiritual leaders as Archimandrite Kirill Pavlov, Archimandrite Ioann Krestiankin, and Archpriest Nikolay Gurianov. (tr. by PDS, posted 11 February 2001)

===

SESSION OF EXPANDED PLENUM OF SYNODAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION
from Communications Service, OVTsS, 20 February 2001
On 19-20 February at the Saint Sergius Holy Trinity lavra within the walls of the Moscow Ecclesiastical Academy a session of the expanded plenum of the synodal Theological Commission was held under the chairmanship of the patriarchal exarch of Belarus, Metropolitan Filaret of Minsk and Slutsk. At the session a concluding document was adopted, the text of which follows in full.

CONCLUDING DOCUMENT

7th Plenum of the synodal Theological Commission of Russian Orthodox church, Moscow Ecclesiastical Academy, 19-20 February 2001

With the blessing of the His Holiness Alexis II, patriarch of Moscow and all-Rus, in connection with the discussions within ecclesiastical and public circles regarding the problem of the introduction of individual taxpayer numbers (INN), on 19-20 February 2001 at the Saint Sergius Holy Trinity lavra, within the walls of the Moscow Ecclesiastical Academy, an expanded session of the synodal Theological Commission was held with the participation of bishops, representing the Orthodox churches of four countries--Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova--superiors and confessors of stauropigial monasteries, representatives of governmental offices, consultants, and experts.

In the course of the work of the commission there was a mutually respectful and fruitful dialogue among representatives of the church and state offices--the State Duma and the Ministry of Taxes and Duties. In the process of the dialogue questions associated with the procedures for taxation of citizens were clarified.

The plenum reviewed problems provoking concern and confusion among a portion of the church public and questions which were raised in numerous appeals from believers and in the publications of the mass media.

1. Is the apocalyptic number 666 contained in INN and electronic documents of personal identification?

2. Is INN the seal of antichrist?

3. Does accepting INN deprive Christians of their own name?

4. Do the processes of globalization pose a spiritual threat?

5. To what extent are actions of individual clergy in connection with the problem of INN proper?

After a thorough discussion of these topics, the plenum came to the following conclusions.

1. According to expert opinion, INN is a product of twelve Arabic numerals, of which the first two designate the area code, the following two, the number of the local tax office, the next six, the number of the tax account of the taxpayer, and the last two, the so-called "control numbers" for checking the accuracy of the entry. The presence of three sixes in this collection of numbers can only be coincidental. To speak of the deliberate inclusion of the number 666 in INN is without any basis. In some publications there is the claim that in the electronic documents using the electronic accounting entry the number 666 is encoded. According to expert opinion received by our commission, there is no basis for this claim.

The suggestion of the covert inclusion of 666 can be considered to have some basis only if the issue is the coding of information by means of the bar code used in accordance with the EAN-13/UPC standard, which has been adopted for marking commodities (at the same time it is necessary to note that strictly speaking the computer does not read the three pairs of extended divisional lines as sixes; however their graphic image is similar to the graphic image of the number six in the very same coding standard). If one is talking about the entry of some other systems of which we know, different from EAN-13/UP (bar codes on commodities), in particular, on electronic bars present in electronic documents, experts do not find the number 666 present in this type of entry of information.

2. The notion that is being spread among some Orthodox Christians to the effect that "antichrist has not yet appeared but his seal is already being imposed" or that there exists some "foreseal" contradicts the church's teaching about the appearance of antichrist at the "end time" of human history. As was already said in the declaration of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox church of 7 March 2000 titled "Respect believers' feelings. Maintain Christian sober thinking," "we remind those who are trying to link identification numbers with the 'seal of antichrist' that in the holy patristic tradition such a seal was understood as a sign that confirmed conscious apostasy from Christ . . . . Despite this tradition it sometimes is claimed that there could be some kind of technological effect causing a change in the inner recesses of the human soul, leading to an abandonment of Christ. Such superstition diverges from the Orthodox interpretation of the Revelation of St. John the Divine, according to whom the 'seal of the beast' will be placed upon those who consciously believe in him 'purely because of his false wonders' (St. John Chrysostom). No external sign whatsoever can destroy the spiritual health of a person if it is not the result of a conscious betrayal of Christ and desecration of the faith."

A similar statement had been made earlier in an open letter of the Holy Synod of the Greek church, no. 2641 of 9 February 1998: "The 'seal' will be either the name of antichrist or the number of his name, and the moment of its application will entail denunciation of Christ and adherence to antichrist, which will be voluntarily embraced by a person. The voluntary acceptance of the 'seal' associated with a clear rejection of Christ deprives one of divine grace in so far as the person, by personal choice, ceases to cooperate with this grace and strives to reject it without any remorse."

3. To the question of whether a Christian forfeits his personal name in accepting INN, we can answer with the words of Archimandrite Ioann Krestiankin: "My beloved, how can we surrender to the panic of losing our own Christian name and replacing it with a number? But could this really happen in the eyes of God? Can someone really forget himself and his heavenly protector who was given at the moment of baptism? Cannot we recall all those priests and Christian laity who over a long period in their lives were supposed to forget their own names and family names and replace them with a number, and the many who passed into eternity with a number. But God received them into his kingdom as holy martyrs and confessors, and their white robes covered their convicts' jackets. They had no name but God was with them and his power led the believing prisoners through the shadow of death every day. The Lord has no notion of a person as a number; a number is required only by contemporary calculation technology; for the Lord there is nothing dearer than the living human soul, for whose sake he sent his only begotten Son, Christ the Savior."

In addition, considering the confusion among the church public in connection with the assignment of INN, the hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox church, on the suggestion of the spiritual counselor of the Saint Sergius Holy Trinity lavra, Archimandrite Kirill Pavlov, conducted a dialogue with the leadership of the Russian Ministry of Taxes and Duties. In the course of the dialogue the ministry declared its readiness to place before the State Duma of the Russian federation a legislative initiative for changes in the Tax Code of the Russian federation, specifically the introduction of a document, a "personal account of the taxpayer--a physical person," and the concept of a "number of a personal account of the taxpayer--a physical person." If this resolution were adopted the concern of some people regarding the "replacement of the Christian name with a number" would lose all basis (in as much as in this case the number is applied to a document and not a person).

4. The processes of globalization which have given rise to growing interdependence of states and nations can be used by an evil will for enslaving people and human societies. Thus it is impossible to deny the danger of the use of various technologies for establishing a system of totalitarian control, for violating the privacy of personal life, and for exerting pressure upon the religious and worldview choice of the individual.

Participants in the session of the Theological Commission expressed the opinion that it would be useful to create a church-public council which, in association with state offices, would conduct a study of the aforesaid processes and tendencies and analyze the development of the pertinent standards of international as well as legislative initiatives and actions of executive authority that pose a danger to the freedom of the individual and the preservation of the cultural and religious distinctives of nations that are historically associated with Orthodoxy. In connection with this it would be useful to send to the president of RF and the Federal Assembly of RF a corresponding letter in the name of the most holy patriarch or Holy Synod.

In many countries there exist mechanisms of legal protection from attempts to introduce a single universal identification system of the individual or the creation of a single interagency data base.

Special attention should be given to the question of the introduction of electronic passports and other modern methods of identification that will be used for conducting audits and receiving social and medical services.

At the same time that the very technology of production and implementation of such identification systems cannot be considered prejudicial, it is necessary to add guarantees for protecting the privacy of personal life and providing access for a person to all information gathered about him while simultaneously preventing such access for anyone else other than specially authorized state offices who operate on the basis of appropriate laws.

Recognizing the objective and ambiguous character of processes of globalization, plenum participants consider it their duty to recall that the Creator and Ruler of the world is God. In its two-thousand-year history the church of Christ has survived many state institutions which have sought to destroy the church and spiritually enslave Christian nations, but they all were shattered on the rock of Christ's promise: "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not overcome it" (Mt 16.18)

5. In the "Bases of the social doctrine of the Russian Orthodox church" (III.5) it is stated that in cases where the state requires the citizen to commit sin the church can appeal for civil disobedience. However these words from the acts of the jubilee bishops' council of 2000 are speaking of the church and not of individual priests or laity who presume to speak in the name of the church.

Special concern is provoked by the fact that many clergy have presumed to act without the blessing of the hierarchy and sometimes in direct contradiction with the position which was openly and unambiguously stated by ruling bishops and the supreme church authority in the person of the bishops' council, Holy Synod, and most holy patriarch. Instances of the distribution by clergy and monastics of their own appeals to the mass media and state offices, which immediately assume the character of overt pressure on the hierarchy, are completely unacceptable. We remind such persons of the eleventh rule of the council of Sardik: "If any bishop or elder or any one of the clergy in general without permission and rescript from the bishop of the region and especially from a metropolitan bishop presumes to approach the emperor, such a one will be removed and deprived not only of communion but also of the office which he held. . . . If urgent need forces someone to go to the emperor, let such a one do so with the review and permission of the metropolitan bishop and the other bishops of the region and with rescripts from them."

It is necessary to remind the contemporary "zealots without knowledge" that the Lord bestowed upon bishops a special mission: to be builders of the mysteries of Christ and preservers of the infallible teachings of tradition. Apostasy from the legal hierarchy is apostasy from the Holy Spirit and from Christ himself. As the holy martyr Ignaty the God-holder said, "everyone must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and the eldership like the apostles. Honor deacons like God's commandment. No one should do anything pertaining to the church without the bishop. . . . Wherever there is a bishop, the people should be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church (St. Ignaty of Antioch). The Orthodox church confesses that "without a bishop the church is not the church nor can a Christian either be or even be called a Christian. For the bishop, as apostolic successor, has received by laying on of hands and the calling of the Holy Spirit supreme authority given by God to decide and bind" (Epistle of the eastern patriarchs).

CONCLUSIONS

1. Acceptance or nonacceptance of individual numbers in no measure is a matter of confession of faith or a sinful deed. It is a matter of personal choice and it has no religious significance.

2. The confusion that has arisen in church circles in the course of the discussion about INN signifies the need for strengthening the teaching ministry of the church hierarchy and correction of shortcomings that exist in spiritual nurturing.

In connection with this we most respectfully ask His Holiness the patriarch to address a pastoral letter to the plenitude of the Russian Orthodox church.

3. Without reproach of people who refuse to accept INN, it is necessary to express alarm over the spiritual condition of those among them who exalt themselves for their refusal and condemn those who do not follow their example.

4. It is completely impermissible for pastors to impose church discipline for either accepting or not accepting tax numbers.

5. Unfortunately, it is necessary to take into account the fact that believing people who refuse INN often have faced discrimination on the part of employers. According to official statements of the leadership of the Russian federation's Ministry on Taxes and Duties, such actions are illegal. In such cases it is necessary to appeal to higher tax offices.

6. Participants in the plenum came to the conclusion that the Russian Orthodox church needs serious improvement in its publishing and informational-analytical activity in the study and elucidation of ecclesiastical and social problems.

7. The church has its own means of resisting the increase of sin in the world: these are not demonstrations and placards, but the use of the divine commandments, prayer, and repentance. Resistance to the evil multiplying in the world becomes a genuinely Christian task not only when Christians stir up one another with baseless fears but also when we live by specific acts directed to the strengthening of our faith and help to our neighbor. "Let your light so shine before others that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father" (Mt 5.16)

[Andreas Moran]

there are many holy people (elders, gerondas, staretzs, or other categories like the married ones) in our world (that includes Russia too) and times. When they cease to exist and there are no more, the world will cease revolving.

Exactly what St Silouan said.

[Yuri Zharikov]

Thanks, Yuri.

I think the difference in opinion between the two startzi is not troubling - it is a question of emphasis and degree. The creeping towards the time when without doubt we must refuse the sign on our hands or foreheads is incremental , and each incrememental step must be the work of the evil one, softening up people for the real thing. Thus, 'chip and pin' (they make it sound like a quaint old pub game, don't they?) is a step towards the mark but is not the mark and we use this system. When biometric passports came in, the Lavra Fathers asked Staretz Kyrill what he tought about them. He said he would not have one but each person had to decide for himself but he did not say they were the mark. (Indeed he has given blessings for travel abroad.) These things need a discerning 'weather eye' so that we are not ensnared unawares when the real thing comes along.

Andreas, it also think that both starzi are correct for one calls on people not to be lax, while the other tells them not to over-react. The royal way. According to the last post of John Fr. Kyrill did not seem to have a problem with the INN in 2001, although he may have hardened his position later.
In the Lord,

Yura

[Yuri Zharikov]

P.S And the word 'crowd' is not a derogatory one. As you see Yuri lives in Canada; and in this continent people of our generation use the word 'crowd' in a casual way and it is not meant in a offensive, or debasing manner. This is a word that has evolved and is part of a more neutral territory at the present.


Nina, thank you. True, "crowd" taken in literal translation into Russia would sound coarse.

Seda, poor choice of wording on my side; no offence was meant, forgive me.

In the Lord,
Yura

[Andreas Moran]

Re John W's post. Where else would a theological commission of the leading monastery of the nation discuss such a matter with the state tax authorities and take advice from an elder? Is not this why Russia will not fall under the sway of Anti-Christ?

[Yuri Zharikov]

Re John W's post. Where else would a theological commission of the leading monastery of the nation discuss such a matter with the state tax authorities and take advice from an elder? Is not this why Russia will not fall under the sway of Anti-Christ?

We would certainly hope so :-)
About three years ago in Odessa I was walking from a service to my parents' home. I had a podryasnik on (I am a reader). In the street a man accosted me and asked if he could ask a question. I said sure. He went to tell me how he, being a tax agency employee is troubled and disturbed by the fact the agency assigns people (believers) INNs against their will. I told him about the decision of the Patriarch and Synod (in John's post), but that did not seem to pacify his worries, I guess because he had to deal with real people with real aversion to the idea. I was not sure what else to tell him other that from the point of view of the Church there was nothing wrong in his actions. He did not sound like somebody well familiar with Orthodoxy, but I wish I had such a sensitive soul as he. May Lord save him.

Yura

[Seda S.]

Hi Seda, I never said we can hide the light. I just said that there are many modern holy people who are not known. I just said what my spiritual father told me. My spiritual father was the spiritual son of Elder Paisios and he knew many things from the Elder.

And actually all my explanation was because you said that you never heard about modern holy people in Russia. And now you say we do not know who is who. Which is also what I believe and also what I said in my previous post.

Since I am not holy I can't know holy. But those who are the vessel of the Holy Spirit can recognize each other and others.

Do you remember the instance when the spiritual son of St. Seraphim of Sarov asked the Saint how can he know if he has the Holy Spirit? The Saint's face shone like the sun. The spiritual son asked what happened to the saint's face and Saint Seraphim smiled and said: "You have the Holy Spirit because if you did not, you could not have seen this light. Your face also shone."

But alas, for people like myself this is not possible and 'do not judge' seems more the appropriate thing to do for me. Since Elder Porphyrios mentioned that we do not judge only in a negative way but also if we say 'such and such is a saint", I refrain from saying my opinion about who is a saint. So I try with all my might to follow these advices, but I fail 99.9% of the time. However if my spiritual father tells me an advise he heard from his spiritual father, I will trust him. And according to that there are many holy people (elders, gerondas, staretzs, or other categories like the married ones) in our world (that includes Russia too) and times. When they cease to exist and there are no more, the world will cease revolving.

Dear Nina, do you think we are speaking about different things? I don't have that impression from your post, and my previous post to you was for confirming that, not for rejecting. But what we don't know for sure (the number and even the names of the elders of today's Russia, as you yourself can see from the answers of this thread- no one has yet completed even that 'seven'), we cannot speak about it as of facts. This is which I'm speaking about and not rejecting generally the existence of saints or saintly persons in Russia (whether they are elders, or, say, simple peasants).

But what concerns Yuri's 'crowd', leave it to him. I presumed he knows Russian very well, unlike many others in this forum (is that so, Yuri, or am I mistaken?), and good that he didn't use the word 'hen house' instead of that 'crowd' (these two are synonims in this case). I think, he understands me. But both you and Yuri consider this as some kind of humour, OK? :) When I was writing about that 'crowd', I was smiling but you weren't clairvoyant to see or understand it :) :) :).

So no need for apologizing, Yura!

[Seda S.]

Yura and the others,
I wrote the previous post as an answer to Nina, without reading the posts coming after Nina's (sorry, I hadn't seen them, I answered according to what I found in my mail box).

That story about INN cards is a long one and I know the details of it very well, because, as I have already said, what happened in Russia, happened also in Armenia. After all that mess with all its sometimes terrible consequences (even a woman commited a suicide in Russia) many fathers and believers changed or soothed their position concerning the INN. It is not difficult for me at all to find again the words of Fr Kyrill concerning those cards in the interviews with him (but in Russian again). So I could give the link to where I had read it. But do you really need it, or is it now so important? If he now tells the believers something else, very good; I'm only glad for it. And I never intended to criticise him, God forbid; I just told that I myself was confused about this matter and that I cannot accept the opinion that cards, numbers etc can affect our spiritual life or harm us.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

For those who can read Russian there is an interesting sermon here (http://www.mepar.ru/library/sermons/211/) on the asking of questions. This sermon isn't directly to do with the questions asked here. But still, speaking from pastoral experience, it warns about asking questions, and the harmful reasons we sometimes do this.

The asking of questions must arise from sobriety and be asked with discernment even of elders. Otherwise one opens the door to confusion.

Thus sometimes we have the tendency to want to ask questions of one spiritual father, then another, one elder, then another...There is no surprise here that confusion and contradictory advice results. For we are the cause of the confusion.

Thus if we have a spiritual father we ask one question and then proceed in faith and trust. That should be the end of the matter.

Sometimes however we do not have this kind of relationship. Then the proper thing is to ask with sensitive ears to what is said, praying that God speaks His word through others. When that word is spoken- which is particular only to your situation- then we need to stop asking.

Discerning the will of God & the desire to follow this is what is most important & should have been our original motivation in the first place.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

Dear Nina, do you think we are speaking about different things? I don't have that impression from your post, and my previous post to you was for confirming that, not for rejecting. But what we don't know for sure (the number and even the names of the elders of today's Russia, as you yourself can see from the answers of this thread- no one has yet completed even that 'seven'), we cannot speak about it as of facts.

The fact that some people in North America can not complete the list of seven for some holy people in Russia, does not mean that those elders (and even more) in Russia do not exist. That is what I was pointing at. And yes. That is a difference between our posts and stances. But do not worry you are still my e-friend although we are different and think differently. :D




But what concerns Yuri's 'crowd', leave it to him. I presumed he knows Russian very well, unlike many others in this forum (is that so, Yuri, or am I mistaken?), and good that he didn't use the word 'hen house' instead of that 'crowd' (these two are synonims in this case). I think, he understands me. But both you and Yuri consider this as some kind of humour, OK? :) When I was writing about that 'crowd', I was smiling but you weren't clairvoyant to see or understand it :) :) :).Actually that does not concern only Yuri, because it is indeed a linguistic phenomenon in the English of N. America at the moment. And Yuri might know Russian fluently, but that does not mean that he thinks in Russian when he writes something in English here since this thread is in English. Actually that's an achievement on his part because that's the alpha we are taught when we learn a foreign language.

I know you were being funny, :) and that we are not clairvoyant, :( but it is just for your enlightenment. ;) :P :D

[Yuri Zharikov]

The fact that some people in North America can not complete the list of seven for some holy people in Russia, does not mean that those elders (and even more) in Russia do not exist. That is what I was pointing at. And yes. That is a difference between our posts and stances. But do not worry you are still my e-friend although we are different and think differently. :D


Actually that does not concern only Yuri, because it is indeed a linguistic phenomenon in the English of N. America at the moment. And Yuri might know Russian fluently, but that does not mean that he thinks in Russian when he writes something in English here since this thread is in English. Actually that's an achievement on his part because that's the alpha we are taught when we learn a foreign language.

I know you were being funny, :) and that we are not clairvoyant, :( but it is just for your enlightenment. ;) :P :D

Seda jan, Nina,
Looks like everybody is trying to be exceedingly funny. :-))) Hope we all manage to keep this mood through the week-end. I am off skiing.

Back Monday,
in the Lord,
Yura

[Alice]

When, some fourteen years ago, my wife was at a point of great difficulty and importance in her life, practical and spiritual, and sensing advice she had been given was not right, she was advised by a friend to visit the Holy Trinity St Sergius Lavra and consult Fr Vassilisk. He agreed to help her but there was opposition from the senior Fathers of the Lavra because Fr Vassilisk is only a couple of years older than Lydia and there were obvious concerns. There was an impasse and so it was decided to refer the matter to Staretz Kyrill. The Staretz blessed Fr V. to help Lydia and be her spiritual father, and the other Fathers ceased their opposition. FR V. then gave her advice which was the opposite of all she had been told by the other she had consulted previously. She asked what would have happened if she had followed the advice of that other. Fr V. replied, 'you would have perished, physically and spiritually'. So, I believe Staretz Kyrill saved her life.

Thank you for sharing this Andreas...for some reason it moved me greatly.
In Christ,
Alice