Bodybuilding and outward appearance [Archive] - Monachos.net Discussion Community

Irene

01-02-2008, 01:34 PM

Jorgo, body building, it could be a slippery slope for a struggler in Christ, you must beware.

As you already stated your interest was to look better...

I been trying to think why, as normal human beings, Christians, we would want to look better. One is perhaps to find a spouse and the other is for reasons of employment, I am completely blank on any other idea. If you are wanting to look better to find a spouse then what sort of person are you aiming for, is this going to be a person who will love you through sickness, through struggles and so on if they are attracted to you for your looks?

If it is for employment, that is difficult, we live in such a superficial world at times. Looking better can give those of us with little confidence a boost. I can't comment on this, I just got my hair cut and styled to boost my own confidence in some job interviews.

From what I understand of body building - they really encourage you to eat meat don't they? Various forms of exercising (the self defense type) make you take off your "jewellry" - so you are not allowed to wear your Cross, definitely don't go for that type of exercise. I once asked Fr David about yoga and he advised me not to because of the various poses are used in eastern religion, he said that it was better that I got my exercise from prostrations.

You can build up your muscles by other means, by labour, help others with physical tasks, a man I know has become quite fit by changing careers to lawnmowing and gardening.

Father David Moser

01-02-2008, 03:51 PM

Bodybuilding as an end to itself while not essentially sinful, is not really conducive to spiritual health - better you should spend the same effort to build up your soul through prayer and ascetic labor. However, if you wish to go the gym and lift a few weights and do a few aerobics so that you are physically fit - this can be a commendable thing. Many secular occupations in our modern world lack any physical component at all and our bodies fall out of balance through lack of exercise. This affects our ability to sleep, our appetite, and our general health, opening the door to many diseases and medical conditions that we would otherwise not be subject to.

So in the end, bodybuilding as a career or as an avocation is something that a Christian might wish to avoid, however keeping a regimen of exercise that includes weights and aerobics is something that a Christian might want to do for basic bodily health (caring for the body as the temple of the Holy Spirit).

Fr David Moser

Jorgo Ristevski

01-02-2008, 06:55 PM

Thank you all for your replies.

"So in the end, bodybuilding as a career or as an avocation is something that a Christian might wish to avoid, however keeping a regimen of exercise that includes weights and aerobics is something that a Christian might want to do for basic bodily health (caring for the body as the temple of the Holy Spirit).

Fr David Moser"

Well I can't lie to anyone, I want to look better and I am wrong about that I admit, but is anything wrong to go to the gym for reasons like Father David mentioned? Forgive me once again.

Amy

01-02-2008, 07:09 PM

I will admit that I exercise at a gym because it is important for my health - physical and emotional. I view this type of regimen as a discipline that I need because it focuses my mind on what is healthy for my body, helps my immune system and gives me energy to meet the needs of the day.

Also, as a side-effect that I discovered some years ago during emotional heart-ache, exercising and lifting weights diverts my negative thinking. I cannot sulk or fall into the sin of self-pity when I am exercising.

Nina

01-02-2008, 07:57 PM

There is nothing bad about it, to say 'I admit it'.

I think also that exercising is very profitable for us. Be that at the gym, or making prostrations.

Father David Moser

01-02-2008, 08:07 PM

but is anything wrong to go to the gym for reasons like Father David mentioned? Forgive me once again.

I don't think so - in fact I know monk (small schema I believe - he's still pretty young for a great schema) who regularly goes to the gym in order to maintain his health.

Fr David Moser

Kris

01-02-2008, 08:48 PM

According to many of the fathers of the church robustness of body is not conducive to the spiritual state and can often be a stimulus for the passions and desires of the body. This all besides the vanity, pride and ego that can be associated with such an activity.

That might be true, but the Fathers also endorse tiring physical labours as a way of fighting the passions of the flesh, which are often aroused by idleness and laziness.

Provided it is done to maintain good health, and not out of vanity, I would suggest the discipline of a strict exercise regieme, scheduling exactly when/what to eat and when to sleep could be a great aid to ones spiritual life.

Olga

01-02-2008, 09:37 PM

If improving physical fitness is the aim, then there can't be too much harm in it. But serious, competitive bodybuilding distorts the body, making it look grotesque and unnatural. The physique of a swimmer, diver or track and field athlete is a far cry from Mr Universe.

Nina

02-02-2008, 12:38 AM

That might be true, but the Fathers also endorse tiring physical labours as a way of fighting the passions of the flesh, which are often aroused by idleness and laziness.

Yes. Also let's remember that in our modern times, being active is not a way of life. In the past people were much more active than our generations.

This does not have to do with bodybuilding, but with healthy, active lifestyle.

Irene

02-02-2008, 04:07 AM

My mother has Osteoporosis and has had a hip replacement. She goes to the gym and lifts weights it is a good way to strengthen bones. It is also a good way to improve your posture and lessen things like back ache. I have been to the gym and lifted weights for this reason, that I may inherit my mothers problems and I wish to avoid them.

Paul Cowan

02-02-2008, 04:15 AM

Mourad Mankarios

02-02-2008, 05:42 AM

That might be true, but the Fathers also endorse tiring physical labours as a way of fighting the passions of the flesh, which are often aroused by idleness and laziness.

Provided it is done to maintain good health, and not out of vanity, I would suggest the discipline of a strict exercise regieme, scheduling exactly when/what to eat and when to sleep could be a great aid to ones spiritual life.

There some what of a difference between what is prescribed in terms of physical labour and bodybuilding. Physical labour would lead to exhaustion and weakening of the body whereas bodybuilding in essence is supposed to be associated with a specific diet to lead to greater robustness of body. A pampered body is then a minefield for the passions and desires that come therefrom. Medically and scientifically such exercises lead to increased levels of serum testosterone levels which enhance libido. This cannot possibly help a single young man, if that is the case here, struggling against the passions of the body.

If you want to be healthy, body and soul, the greatest tool I would think that a person could use is that which has been provided by God as a gift to the church which is fasting. Many health experts themselves acknowledge that a healthy regime is constituted of 80% food and 20% exercise. Therefore, exercise is minimal in significance when compared to the importance of food and how we consume such food. Hence our blessed church and the fathers have taught us the great blessings that flow from the spiritual exercise of fasting for both body and soul.

If working with weights was something practised due to being prescribed by a physician or other health professional for the sake of either physical or mental health or to pass spare time which one finds they have much of and is a great source of temptation then one could perhaps reluctantly see the benefit. But in the long term a person should perhaps seek to occupy their time with other more useful activities which might not be a source of desires and could be of greater benefit to the spirit.

Olga

02-02-2008, 08:45 AM

Might I also add the following: It is no guarantee that physical exercise will "improve" the appearance of individual muscle groups. For instance, I know of a group of friends who, when in their twenties, would go to the gym two or three times a week to improve their fitness, and to "tone up" and "improve" various parts of their bodies. Vanity was not part of the reason for any of them.

After the better part of a year, three of them had "filled out" to a more athletic shape. Of the rest, one remained a tall, gangly "stick insect", his brother was still recognisably pudgy, and the third had quite good muscle definition in his legs and upper arms, but, to his dismay, his chest and abdomen remained stubbornly flat and sunken. This lad later worked in an automotive factory for six months, spraying and buffing cars on the assembly-line. Hard upper-body work. His arms looked good, but the chest stayed the same....

Effie Ganatsios

02-02-2008, 09:26 AM

I thought I had already posted on this thread but as I can't see my message anywhere I probably didn't submit it. Ah, what can I say? The wonders of growing older.

I just wanted to say that our bodies are temples of the Lord and we should do everything in our power to take care of them. Being active, eating properly etc. are part of this.

Going to a gym, or exercising using more natural methods either by housework, gardening, walking everywhere are all part of taking care of our bodies.

When this desire to take care of our bodies is due to vanity then we need to take ourselves to task. Is vanity worse though than sitting in a comfortable chair all day, watching TV and eating whatever is in the house? On the one hand we have vanity - something we need to explore in order to find out why we want to look good to other people, and on the other hand we are destroying our bodies, created by God. Which is worse?

Looking like an Arnold Schwarznegger (spelling?) is just as bad as being overweight and in ill health because of unhealthy habits.

As orthodox we need to look good, sloppiness and uncleanliness have no part in our lives, but there are natural ways of looking good. I see old women here 75, 80, 85 looking so attractive. Most of them are in black, but their hair is lovely, their stockings are usually sheer black, their clothes are spotless and they are very active. I am 100% sure that none of them has ever seen the inside of a gym but their daily lives are lived in such a way that their bodies show the results.

Effie

Kosta

02-02-2008, 10:10 AM

Going to the gym and lifting weights, doing excercises, as many others have said is commendable. It releases endorphins which gives you energy and is a great preventative against depression. Even builds up your immune system increases your vitality.

Sound mind body and soul. We read and study and get educated to improve our intellect, we go to Church to improve our soul and to uplift our spirit. And keeping our bodies in good shape is also a component of the human being.

On the other hand, why do us guys want to lift weights? Its not neccesarily for the above reasons. Its to attract the opposite sex. And usually not to attract just one woman, the more the merrier. Lets be honest about the intentions. Its this aspect that can become dangerous to your soul. While the upkeep of the body is commendable also keep in mind what Christ taught us, " Do not fear he who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul fear he who can kill both body and soul in gehenna".

Effie Ganatsios

02-02-2008, 10:29 AM

Good post, Kosta.

Effie

Jorgo Ristevski

02-02-2008, 02:47 PM

Thanks again for your replies. Well I have to fight my evil intentions (I have them, no doubt it's so).

Aaron Wake

02-02-2008, 05:44 PM

Passions of the flesh are also a danger for some going to a gym.

Why pay the fees and subject yourself to looking at half dressed people when you can find the same or better "equipment" at home.

Get a broom stick and tie a gallon water jug to each end for curls, lay on your back with this and do presses, stick your feet under a sofa for situps. Afix a pole between a door jam and do pull ups. Take the same broom stick without weights and put it behind your head with arms extended and twist every which way for stretching, buy a jump rope and go in the backyard, do jumping jacks, run in place, put both hands on the floor and alternate your legs one up then the other as if running, lay on your back and peddle a cycle.

Don't play the games of the world. The world will only trip you up. Get around the world's rules by creating new ones.

Be creative on your exercises. And do it for FREE.

Paul

That is great advise! I had a flashback to Rock 4 just then. I think he was in Russia training in a cabin while Drago was in the high-tech gym.

I think anything we do could be done for vanity (some things more than others). Making the body healthy is not sinful. We wear appropriate clothing to not tempt the other sex, not gain a bunch of weight. I know I had this issue years ago when I lifted weights. God allowed me to see it His way eventually.

Nina

02-02-2008, 08:47 PM

"The unfolding of thy words gives light"
Once, four young men, who were spiritually indifferent, visited Elder Paisios. He kindly welcomed them and asked them to sit in the garden, while he ran inside to bring them some water and a Greek sweet called loukoumi (a typical treat in Mt. Athos). Then, he sat next to them to find out the nature of their visit. They said with a certain imprudence:

-Father, why don't you give us another loukoumi? The Elder stood up and went to fetch the box with the sweets. Then, they asked him again:

-Why don't you bring some more water?

He stood up and went to bring four glasses of water. He put them on a tray and stood in front of them. Then, he took each one of the glasses and poured the water in front of their feet and told them smiling with kindness:

-I went to fetch you some water, since you asked for it, to show you that I don't have any difficulty in obeying your wills. I did not give it to you, though, because I would enforce your laziness.

Selected from Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain

Tessa Miljanic

07-02-2008, 03:33 PM

My dad used to REALLY be into bodybuilding when I was a kid, and with him, because of his pride, I saw alot of negative effects. May God be merciful on his soul.

I agree with what the others say, try to build yourself up with other works like labor outside etc.

My spiritual Father has advised me NOT to work out in a gym, or work out for certain parts of my body. He recommends walking, which here in Colorado could get you REALLY fit.

God willing I hope to get back into it when the snow melts.

In Christ,
Tessa

Rick James York

07-04-2008, 01:49 PM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'Rick James York' is identical to members 'Rostislav' and 'John M.' The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

I wonder if it's a sin to be a bodybuilder. Not to go on competitions, but put some muscule on so you could look better, thats all. Sorry for the stupid and the inapropriate question. Thanks.Bodybuilding in itself is not a sin. If you used the words weight lifting, you may have received a more positive average response.

If it becomes a passion, then it is more than a sin. If you idolize your own image as a result of making yourself look herculean, that is a sin.

If you are young, single and looking to find a future wife. Well, though Orthodox people older than you (if you are young) may say you should search for a wife who looks at your spiritual disposition instead of your physical attractiveness, they are right. But older people also need to remember that they were young once themselves and they can see that they went through a stage and moved on from that to where they are now.

Not all single young men and women behave like monastics or saints but have youthful desires, not all of which are sinful. They will find life excessively cumbersome if they live in the world like monastics while still young. They have time to develope greater self control as they mature. Most young men who excercise to look fit and strong soon stop visiting the gym after the wedding, and if not then, then after their first baby wakes them up on the nights before training.

I say if you really want to body build while young, go ahead. But if it becomes a passion, confess this to your father confessor immediately. Service to God must come first. Building up the armor of your soul for spiritual warfare should take precedence and priority.

If you do take up weight lifting, pray in your mind and heart while you workout. For a brief time I knew a Greek-American monk who made himself bar bells using cement masses at both ends of a metal pipe or bar. As he got stronger, he added more cement.

He used to be a fireman and lifted weights for work. Firemen need to be strong. In the monastery one of his obediences was splitting logs for the kitchen stove. He was still a good monk and devout Christian.

Also, young men can weaken physical 'movements of the flesh' as monastic fathers called it, through physical labors or excercises. However I agree with one of the others who said prostrations are better.

I hope I was of assistance, James

Herman Blaydoe

08-04-2008, 04:09 PM

St Herman of Alaska wore an iron plate and chains under his cassock (about 50 lbs worth). He was reportedly strong enough to carry large logs by himself. The chains and plate are still preserved as relics in Alaska to this day.

C. Christoph

16-07-2008, 09:36 PM

I am fairly sure that this is, ideally, a matter for the spiritual father, as it depends on so many personal circumstances and variables... for instance, bodybuilding 4, 5 times a week could prove a great aid for a drug/alcohol addict to overcome his particular passion, however, if he later becomes a monk, it would certainly have to be replaced by some other form of physical activity such as half an hour of prostrations every morning!

in Christ

Luke

24-07-2008, 08:48 PM

First, let me say with all seriousness that I admire everyone's intentions and inclinations toward piety.

Now, I'd like to share with you that most of the stuff posted on this thread was borderline laughable. I'm talking about those specifically referring to weight training in general and not bodybuilding/monstrous steroid user mentalities.

I will grant that there is a fine line between health and narcissism, but I would also say that people who diet well do the same thing. Perhaps they are too lazy to work out or maybe they were just blessed with great genes. My intention is not to throw out the spirit of what a lot of the posters have mentioned, but reading this I really came away with a tee-totalling attitude that just seemed very lame and unrealistic. So what if I want to attract the opposite sex? I think that you all must understand that many people, male and female alike, can receive added boost in self confidence and goal achievement from looking better and I think this lends to healthier lifestyle. Yes, weight training and exercise should be first about body fitness and wholeness and then cosmetics, but to hint that it is very dangerous and leads towards grave problems seems to me to be a bit much.

Again, I admire the humility of the original poster but (and I could be wrong) this seems to be a backlash from people who aren't very fit (most) towards those that try to be. I usually hate that style of logic but here it seems true due to the over-protective tone of the board towards the original poster.

Just my thoughts

Paul Cowan

26-07-2008, 03:14 AM

Ken McRae

26-07-2008, 05:13 PM

First, let me say with all seriousness that I admire everyone's intentions and inclinations toward piety.

Now, I'd like to share with you that most of the stuff posted on this thread was borderline laughable.

"Exercise thyself rather unto godliness; for bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come." - 1 Timothy 4:7b-8

Bodily exercise profits "little." Never forget that! And it only profits a little if it is done as the others have recommended in this thread. It profits you absolutely nothing if it is done with a vain mind and "worldly" intention(s). That is a simple fact of the Christian life.

Luke

27-07-2008, 05:56 PM

Dear Luke,

I don't know how old you are, but most of the posters here are older and probably are fatter than the younger generation, or should I say the single crowd looking for a potential mate. One thing as you read all the posts, I would hope in all sincerety, is that you see the wisdom of age here. These people may be "tea totalers" to you, but they have already gone down life's roads of hard knocks and have seen and probably participated in life's downfalls and deadend roads.

There have also been numerous posts on the beneficial effects of working out. But as any young male will tell you as i hope you are honest with yourself, is people showing off their bodies to others with ot without the direct intent of doing so are flattered when their body is appreciated by others. This in the course of time does lead ultimately to putting the person in a "bad" position of accepting or rejecting the impure advances of others.

I think what you did not get out of these posts is that for a "pure" spiritual development this is not something a mentor would recommend. Yes, most everyone here posts the idealic world practise of the Faith. is it realistic? To some degree yes. But the young person also will have to discover his/her road of hard knocks to realize this. In the end, we all are or become fuddy duddies. As my mother constantly tells me; "Listen to your mother".

I truly wish I had more growing up. Perhaps I would not have had to experience my temptations so young. Yes, the height of my personal temptations came during my "working out" stage. Yes, I failed my trials. I hope to help others avoid them.

Paul

I appreciate where you all are coming from. However, the main reason I posted is:

a) the overwhelming sense of posters seemed to be of warnings by overbearing parents that they might give to children

b) I'm not that the above is realistic

I do see the wisdom all around the site, for certain. The reason I used tea-totalers is because (assuming we're not talking about bodybuilding and crazy steroid-like figures but rather weightlifting) the advice seemed unrealistic and akin to telling someone "don't drink [ever]."

This is arguably better for you, but it's not real. We're put in bad positions all the time. Most of the people here sounded like they were not saying, "Be careful, it isn't bad for you in itself, but it can lead to bad things if it gets out of hand."

Should we be screaming at our daughters to not wear make-up? I think this point proves my "reality" perspective. Tied up here is the philosophy of experience. I always tell people, just make sure you (your kids, etc.) don't make the big mistake. Paul, would you know how dangerous those things were if you hadn't been down that road? No, you wouldn't. Am I advocating going down the road? No, I'm not.

Ultimately, it's about balance. Are parents full of **** a lot? Yes. Do they [usually] want to protect their kids? Absolutely. They sometimes do this by being irrationally overbearing. And kids don't learn that way --- oftentimes they go out and "learn" further in the direction of bad than good. I'm chuckling because at this point you are probably psychoanalyzing this and perhaps thinking that I come from this crowd. It's not the case. I have seen it happen to some my friends though and that's why I mention it. For now, I think I have made my point.

Ken,

How could I ever on earth come to this board and disagree with what you are saying? If you are taking my argument to be that somehow physical beauty even compares in meaning, you are mistaken.

"It profits you absolutely nothing if it is done with a vain mind and "worldly" intention(s)."

Indeed, insert "prayer" "love" "fasting" or any other virtue that one can think of.

Ken McRae

27-07-2008, 08:59 PM

Ken,

How could I ever on earth come to this board and disagree with what you are saying? If you are taking my argument to be that somehow physical beauty even compares in meaning, you are mistaken.

Well, grant it; I do make many mistakes. If I misunderstood you, then I do apologize.

So what if I want to attract the opposite sex? I think that you all must understand that many people, male and female alike, can receive added boost in self confidence and goal achievement from looking better and I think this lends to healthier lifestyle.

Here, though, in the above quote, you have said nothing about the attraction of spiritual beauty, versus physical beauty. You appear to say there is nothing amiss with taking up weight-lifting as a way of attracting the opposite sex. The way it is stated, though, smacks a little too much of worldly wisdom. One must be more careful to cultivate a way of thinking and acting which is clearly distinctive of the Orthodox way of life, and seperate from the world.

However, I suppose if one is really unhealthy and physically unfit, or extremely weak, there might be some concern about their ability to procreate and support a family. So there may be some way to take your statement in an Orthodox sense, that a robust or healthy physique may inspire confidence in the opposite sex of one's ability to procreate healthy offspring and support a large family. However, we must be very careful not to place any confidence at all in the flesh.

You speak of lifting weights as a means of building self-confidence, and that this will somehow inspire confidence in the opposite sex, but confidence regarding what, really? St. Paul had every reason to be self-confident, but clearly he placed no confidence in his flesh, for any reason at all. We ought to be exceedingly careful not to place any confidence in the flesh, whatsoever, in terms of attracting a mate. Our confidence must be entirely in God alone, that He will send us the mate we need for the arduous work(s) of salvation.

Look at the world around you and see how it idolizes the flesh and physical beauty. Orthodox Christians must be constantly on guard against being tainted or infected by such a spirit and attitude. Thus, I must agree with the cautious thinking of the other poster(s) that there are untold trials and dangers attached to bodily exercise. How many souls have fallen into countless carnal sins of the flesh because of the pride of their "beautifully" sculpted bodies? Thus, to engage in bodily exercise without any consideration of how it either strengthens or weakens passion is unwise. It should be used first as a means to subdue carnal passion; acording to the wisdom the holy Fathers.

The Apostle commands us to redeem the time, for the days are evil. Are we doing that when we have little time for godly exercises, and take away from that little measure to give to bodily exercise? Orthodox Christians live according to rule, as you well know. So what is the rule in terms of how much time an Orthodox Christian ought to devote to bodily exercise? I don't know, to be honest, but it seems to me that the time one devotes to "godly" or spiritual exercise should be double that, as a bare minimum, which is given to bodily exercise. According to that rule, if one gives an hour a day to bodily exercise, just for example, then one must give two hours a day to spiritual exercise, or building up one's spiritual strength; so that one's spirit will always be twice as strong as the body of flesh.

Yes, weight training and exercise should be first about body fitness and wholeness and then cosmetics, but to hint that it is very dangerous and leads towards grave problems seems to me to be a bit much.

Should it be about physical fitness first? Or about spiritual discipline and subduing the body to the reign of grace?

"It profits you absolutely nothing if it is done with a vain mind and "worldly" intention(s)."

Indeed, insert "prayer" "love" "fasting" or any other virtue that one can think of.

Prayer, love and fasting are spiritual exercises, but we are talking now about bodily exercise(s). My concern was about sanctifying all things in Christ, including bodily exercise; as opposed to indulging in it for worldly or purely carnal reasons. To sanctify bodily exercise means to use it as a way to discipline and subdue the body, or to bring it into submission to Christ. That does not happen accidentally, or without conscious intent and effort.

Paul Cowan

27-07-2008, 10:37 PM

A prophet is without honor only in his own country. OR

We only hear what we want to hear from those we want to hear it from and not from those who tell us what we need to hear at the time it is needed to hear it.

I get criticized for sticking in scripture where it suits me. Rightfully so. Anyone can use scripture pretty much anywhere and make a point even if it is the wrong point. The point I am trying to make is that people, usually but not always young people, 13-25 or so years old; prefer to take the road of hard knocks even when everyone around or even just one person is telling them of the short falls in front of them. But stubborn as kids are they are determined to experience all the hardships life has to offer.

History does repeat it self. Simply because man never learns; whether from his own personal mistakes or from the mistakes of others. How do we prove this? Because man has not changed in 7500 years. As Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun. All is vanity. We are as smart (or stupid) now as we were back when. Only our technology has improved.

These latest posts remind me of the tale of the mother that tells her son not to put his hand on the stove because it is hot. What does he do? He touches the stove. Why? Defiance? Does he want to prove to himself it IS hot? What can the mother do, but bandage the burn and try to remind him not to do it again. Such is the spiral of life humans find themselves in.

Paul

Nina

28-07-2008, 04:36 AM

Dear Luke,
are fatter than... the single crowd looking for a potential mate.

Paul

I am not single. I am not fat. I am not looking for a potential mate. ;) Who said that after finding a mate we have the passport to the unhealthy-lifestyle-land?

Paul Cowan

28-07-2008, 05:24 AM

I am not single. I am not fat. I am not looking for a potential mate. ;) Who said that after finding a mate we have the passport to the unhealthy-lifestyle-land?

That's not at all whaI am suggesting. Here is the original Post #1

Bodybuilding
I wonder if it's a sin to be a bodybuilder. Not to go on competitions, but put some muscule on so you could lok better, thats all.

No it is not a sin to be a bodybuilder. But as you can see the original post refers to "looking better". For who? What does it benefit the soul to "look better"? The act of working out to grow mass, build cardiovascular strength and overall health is commendable. However, with this also comes great temptations which I think enough people here have tried to warn us from. Just because some are no longer single or on the "make" does not give us the right to abandon our temple for the Holy Spirit. It is the one talent Christ gave us we can truly take care of. AND, we should also be careful when the pretty girl or handsome guy next to us also working out for totally "pure" reasons of their own says hello or can I spot for you? Totally innocent statements from this person, but like the folks who have already been there and done that know; get away from this person.

People that go to health clubs to work out 99% of the time do so alone. Those that want to strike up a conversation while they are working out are not there Just to work out. Nothing wrong with talking to people. I am not saying that. I am saying take a look around you next time you are there and see the dynamics between people.

What are sins of the flesh if not impure glances, "accidental" brushing against someone, flirting, touching and more. As Unseen Warfare says (paraphrased) Even if the demon of lust has not bothered you in a while and you think you are wet gun powder, flee from any temptaions thinking you are the dryest of all gunpowder and the slightest spark could set you off.

Bottom line. Be careful. Be safe. Be smart.

Paul

Olga

28-07-2008, 10:58 AM

Nina

28-07-2008, 01:36 PM

Dear Paul,

Yes I know your original post and your reply to Luke. I was just trying to create a light atmosphere - and really it does not mean that people when they get married they let go of themselves. We are not into bodybuilding, however some healthy choices are very good. What does healthy mean? Healthy means things that we were actually created to do. Like walking for instance (instead of getting in the car for driving even two blocks away), like preparing our food (instead of consuming ready highly processed food) and so on.

Speaking of healthy choices you know dear Paul that recently I tried to be "heroic" and I dearly had to recompense. While there were many benefits from what happened (because our dear God turns our mistakes into blessings) I should have been careful.

P.S And yes, when I go to the gym I do go solely for the purpose of exercising. However I know (and you are right) that there are some who do not. Therefore I have found solutions. I usually go when the place is not busy and there are mainly retired, elderly people exercising. When I can't and I know the place will be "full" I put on my headphones.

Mary

28-07-2008, 03:40 PM

Please forgive me, today is my Pet Peeves day. For those who want to look good in order to attract a mate and then don't care what they look like because they've trapped the poor person and tricked them into marriage... that's exceedingly disrespectful, deceptive and pure evil. Towards yourself, and towards the person you've trapped. Our bodies are holy and beautiful and gifts from God. We are to take care of them, and keep them in top working condition to the best of our abilities. Our bodies aren't traps or some other such unholy thing to be used for some personal gain.

So I exercise, and I eat healthy, I'm still fat and out of shape, I'll never look good, but I can be strong, I can avoid illnesses that are avoidable, I can hold my almost 7 yr old daughter for as long as she wants to be held, (sometimes half the service), and I can do any number of prostrations.

In Christ,

Porcupine.

Luke

28-07-2008, 10:45 PM

Paul,

Maybe it is the forum, perhaps it is/was the day, or even what you are used to, I'm not sure, but it seems that this has been made into an argument. Perhaps I've been exhorting against this type of mentality. I've learned from all of the posts even if I don't fully agree --- anything erring on the side of caution and self-awareness can hardly be a bad thing. But my qualms are when these cautions become very dogmatic.

As for "looking better" --- you didn't answer my previous question. Are you going to tell a teenage girl or unmarried woman not to wear make-up? If I say, I want to look better for me / for self confidence, for integrity, for whatever, is that bad? It's as if you don't realize that people are attracted to others for myriad reasons, and you are kidding yourself if 99.9% of males at first aren't all about looks --- if they can get them in a girl. Let's be honest. Should we totally deny this nature of our life, fallen as it may be? That's why I called where you are going unrealistic.

Because you've already gone through finding a wife and appreciate the other fine meanings and offerings a person has to give after having been with them doesn't mean that another person would want to or even should entertain non-physical things when looking for someone that they might consider to be a partner.

In a sense, I'm poking fun at the hilarious paradox that "youth is wasted on the young." That's the whole point of life! I find it funny that the old people think that if they had young, more lively bodies again, they would not be prone to the same exact thing that young people are prone to already. It's really an egotism of sorts. And I don't like self deception, either.

Mary

28-07-2008, 11:36 PM

As for "looking better" --- you didn't answer my previous question. Are you going to tell a teenage girl or unmarried woman not to wear make-up? If I say, I want to look better for me / for self confidence, for integrity, for whatever, is that bad? It's as if you don't realize that people are attracted to others for myriad reasons, and you are kidding yourself if 99.9% of males at first aren't all about looks --- if they can get them in a girl. Let's be honest. Should we totally deny this nature of our life, fallen as it may be? That's why I called where you are going unrealistic.

So, what are you saying, Luke? That just because raging hormones cause you to place a greater than necessary importance on looks, that it's ok to submit to those hormones?

I never wore make up. I never wore high heels. I never did funny things to my hair. My mom thought I looked like a peasant straight from the field and she seemed like she was always slightly embarrassed about that. My sister liked to dress up, and do funny things with her hair and wear pretty clothes. She could make herself look quite elegant.

My reasons for choosing the 'peasant' look were simply because I hated the way I looked and I knew that paint and fabric and stinky chemicals in my hair wouldn't change me, they would've only made me look worse. I'd given up on myself. I wasn't being modest and pious or anything good. Everyone has their own reason for why they do the things they do. I'll never tell another person how to dress or whether they should paint their faces and nails or not. That's entirely their own business.

If you think that makeup and muscles will improve your self confidence, then there's nothing anyone can say to convince you otherwise. I think, only God can improve your self confidence and I never would've believed that myself, when I was younger. It is in him, that you'll find yourself, not in all the external things that you can do to beautify yourself. And finding yourself in Him isn't something that you just do, and then you're set to go. I keep losing myself all the time! And I have to re-find myself again. During the times I'm lost, I'm quite a mess, just as if I'm still a teenager, plump and plain and wishing I had just one tiny thing that would get a guy interested in me.

Because you've already gone through finding a wife and appreciate the other fine meanings and offerings a person has to give after having been with them doesn't mean that another person would want to or even should entertain non-physical things when looking for someone that they might consider to be a partner.
Ha! You sound just like me! Perhaps we're related!!! Whenever grown ups would tell me that partying all night, dancing and watching endless movies and what not with a whole bunch of kids my age was most unhealthy, I'd think: "Yeah, right. You've already had your fill of it. Now it's my turn. I'll decide for myself when I'm ancient, whether partying and dancing is unholy or not. You just want to keep me from enjoying life as much as you did."

So, what do I think, now that I'm ancient? Sigh. I've forgotten how to think.

In a sense, I'm poking fun at the hilarious paradox that "youth is wasted on the young." That's the whole point of life! I find it funny that the old people think that if they had young, more lively bodies again, they would not be prone to the same exact thing that young people are prone to already. It's really an egotism of sorts. And I don't like self deception, either.I'm old. But I enjoy life more now, than when I was young. When I was young it was important to me what others thought about how I looked, etc. Now it doesn't matter. But I take better care of myself, and I know I look better than when I was a teenager. Ah, my 'good looks' are wasted on my old age! =)

In Christ,
mary.

PS: I realize that you were talking to Paul. Feel free to ignore my post. I just like to talk. Hmm... one more thing that I don't miss from my youth. I was always afraid to talk, because I was afraid of saying the wrong thing and being embarrassed to death. But now, I say the wrong thing all the time, and I don't mind looking foolish. =) I like a win-win situation!

Herman Blaydoe

28-07-2008, 11:40 PM

Luke

28-07-2008, 11:54 PM

Herman, if I don't understand what it means, then please explain it to me. Or is it too over my head?

If you look into the saying, what is it? It's jealousy. Nothing is wasted --- youth is youth. Again, I ask, would not the "elderly" be prone? If you claim they wouldn't, maybe you're right. I don't think you can say that seriously and not think you're deceiving yourself. That's my take.

Also, in discussion, I'm not so much into passive aggressive quips. I can take it and I can dish it out, but I came here to ask questions and learn. Don't be fooled by the two dimensions of message boarding --- by no means am I hot nor bothered. I just think it's frustrating when you say I don't understand, don't show me why (nor answer my questions) and then resort to saying "Ehh, maybe when you're older and don't know so much." If I'm wrong, I apologize, but that type of condescension and then feigned humility on your signoff isn't productive.

Nina

29-07-2008, 03:34 AM

I never wore make up. I never wore high heels. I never did funny things to my hair.
In Christ,
mary.

Giggles... Do you know St. Chrysostom exhorts women who dolly up themselves saying (if I recall correctly) that if they do it for the eyes of their husbands they should dolly up at home.

However, I just read somewhere these days that "Women do not dolly up for men to look at them. They dolly up to get back at other women." I was laughing so much when I read it and therefore I did not pay attention who said it.

If this (second) attempt at making the mood lighter in this not so serious thread, is also wasted I will not attempt it again. Promise! :)

Paul Cowan

29-07-2008, 04:38 AM

If this (second) attempt at making the mood lighter in this not so serious thread, is also wasted I will not attempt it again. Promise! :)

Levity accepted and appreciated.

Do you know why women are used in advertising much more so than men? Because both women and men look at women whereas if it is a man being modeled odds are the women will not take a second look. (I did not say 100% of the time). But women compare themselves to other women before they will look at a man. (why? not for men to know)

That said, there is more harm in a woman dolling her self up than for a man. Beacuse she can harm other women as much if not more than men as now the other women might feel they have to "out do" this one and look more badder than the first. (yeah I know bad grammar Effie) But because men are trying to get the upper hand on each other they have to work twice as hard. Have you ever noticed that humans are the only animal in the kingdom that the females look better than the males. Look at peacocks or turkeys or cardinals or lions or deer. The males are always showing off to the females. Why are we backwards? However across the board, women get to choose the mate.

As a friend recently told me; when I am digging my own pit, stop digging. I think my hole is deep enough now. Ya'll just push the dirt back over the top of me.

Paul

Alice

29-07-2008, 11:48 AM

Giggles... Do you know St. Chrysostom exhorts women who dolly up themselves saying (if I recall correctly) that if they do it for the eyes of their husbands they should dolly up at home.

However, I just read somewhere these days that "Women do not dolly up for men to look at them. They dolly up to get back at other women." I was laughing so much when I read it and therefore I did not pay attention who said it.

If this (second) attempt at making the mood lighter in this not so serious thread, is also wasted I will not attempt it again. Promise! :)

Dear Nina,

I appreciate your attempts at lightening up posts! :)

It is a strange fact of womanhood, and one that a man will probably not understand, but we women (especially those in relationships and married) do have other women and our female peers in mind more when we are dressing up, making up, and dollying up, than we do men. After all, our 'significant others' never notice or compliment us, but our female friends and acquaintances do! *wink* It is definitely a girlie thing that goes back to our school and childhood days and the way that we bond with each other.

Regards,
Alice

Herman Blaydoe

29-07-2008, 11:56 AM

Are you going to tell a teenage girl or unmarried woman not to wear make-up?

Yes, particularly if it is my daughter or granddaughter and it is too heavy or inappropriate. I certainly will tell someone to wipe off their lipstick before they venerate an icon, or better yet, don't wear any. The emollients in lipstick destroy the paint.

The most beautiful adornment is modesty.

If I say, I want to look better for me / for self confidence, for integrity, for whatever, is that bad?

Looking better makes you more self-confident? Perhaps some people are "confident" for the wrong reasons. Not having to care about what you look like, THAT is confidence.

Let's be honest. Should we totally deny this nature of our life, fallen as it may be?

Indeed, let's be honest. What do you think this means? "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:29) Talk about "unrealistic"...

Some are farther down the path than others. They see what is around the corner, they have already encountered the obstacles that they were so busy building when they were younger. They would like to spare those behind them the same grief, pains and regrets. That is not jealousy, that is compassion.

Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you;
Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you.
Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser;
Teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
(Proverbs 9:8-9)

Alice

29-07-2008, 12:55 PM

I wonder if it's a sin to be a bodybuilder. Not to go on competitions, but put some muscule on so you could lok better, thats all. Sorry for the stupid and the inapropriate question. Thanks.

Dear Jorgo,

If you mean just working out to be fit, keep your metabolism up and weight down, and to look fit...I personally don't see anything wrong with that. One of the most hardworking and devoted Orthodox priests I had ever met liked to spend some time at the gym...It made him feel better and more healthy to face his morning to night ministry of meetings, services, hospital visits, confessions, counseling, etc...and he is married and always wears a rasso.

On the other hand, if you mean looking like a body builder, I think that can be like women who have certain surgeries done on parts of their bodies that look unnatural...I think that is sinful as well as terribly unnatractive in its artificial component and in its obvious sinful intention.

In all things, whether they be: eating, grooming, exercising, ambition, hobbies, passtimes, making money, talking, using computers (!), consumer buying, etc...we all should strive for 'pan metron ariston'/'in all things moderation'. Balance in one's life is not easy, for sure, but we should strive for it if our calling is in the world rather than a monastery.

In Christ,
Alice

Luke

29-07-2008, 06:32 PM

You guys are consistent and stick to your guns. I respect that.

You might be confusing where we are coming from. The honest answer to the question from before was, "No, I wouldn't in general, unless it were too heavy or inappropriate." The answer is not "yes". And so we agree.

Indeed, some people are confident for the wrong reasons. Using our examples, I thought of attending church. Would one attend church and not have a presentable appearance becausee (s)he doesn't care about what she looks like? It's about respect and class and not necessarily self-image. We don't decorate churches because of our own narcissism. We do that because it is befitting of the one we come to worship, the king of kings, etc. How many people come to church and dress in casual attire, then later in the week go to an interview for a job with a suit on? That's what I'm getting at. At the very least, both sides can be accused of fake piety.

Your reference to (Matt 5:29) is a good point --- it is insightful, to say the least, as I see this debate as a microcosm of how we should live within that reference. Every man must work it out, indeed.

As for the male/female thing:

Do you know why women are used in advertising much more so than men?

Yes, you are correct that women look at women more. But this is precisely because of men that they do this. What proves this is that women are not competitive really in their nature about anything save for when it comes to the male species.

Have you ever noticed that humans are the only animal in the kingdom that the females look better than the males.?

I wondered about this for a while and then thought of more interesting questions. If women are so pretty and naturally beautiful, why do they wear make-up? Why do men have redder lips and longer eyelashes - and women do all they can to get these? Why are antiquities statues of proportion and style generally depicting males and not females? My conclusion is that neither sex looks better than the other. If anything the case is stronger for men. But what's the culture? What questions are we asking? Does it matter? No. Overall, I think humans, even though they say, "Looks better or is more attractive" it really comes down to lust. And men have that in spades --- so the overriding cultural idea is that women are sought after, cherished for looks, etc. It's a sex thing, not an unbiased attractiveness thing. No sir, we're not backwards --- our fallenness is one and the same. In the past, women didn't really get to choose their mates although now it exists and is a good thing, of course. I hope that was interesting.

Paul Cowan

30-07-2008, 02:22 AM

I will concede we are surrounded by lust and vanity.

I would caution you about your stance on women not being "competitive in their nature about really anything." Some of the ladies on this forum may say otherwise. :)

Otherwise I will agree with your fake piety in life in general. Me as well.

Paul

Luke

30-07-2008, 02:45 AM

It has been a fruitful conversation. Wrong or right, I hope it has been good for others. May we each find our way in His light.

Cheers,

Luke

Effie Ganatsios

30-07-2008, 12:15 PM

Leaving the house with unkempt hair and without any make-up at all will make you conspicuous in today's world.

In the past, women who painted their faces were not the norm, and their painted faces usually meant that they were "fallen women". What an odd phrase but I suppose it will do as well as something more frank.

My mother is 81 and she still likes to look her best. A little natural lipstick, hair nicely done, face creamed - this is all she has ever worn on her face. She even combs her eyebrows, something she has always done. She doesn't look painted, but she does look like what she is - a woman with self-respect. She doesn't "doll" herself up for men, but for herself and perhaps for other women, because she doesn't like other women to see her when she's not at the best.

I hope that when I reach 81 (God willing) that I have enough self respect to be like her.

Dressing up for church : People here have always worn their best for church. In spite of the fact that we seem to have had this discussion in the past and that I was misunderstood if I remember correctly, I cannot do otherwise than to speak honestly. Discreet, clean clothes are a must for both men and women. Not everyone can afford the latest fashions or the most expensive clothes, but that is not what I mean by our "best clothes". I mean the best we have.

In the past i.e. up to the 1950's, here in my city, people did not have much money, but they were always well dressed on Sunday. How? By buying the best material, having the best dressmakers or tailors make your clothes and then taking the absolute best care of them that you could.

People bought a new set of clothes, including shoes, once every one or two years in the Lenten period before Easter. Just as all the house had a thorough spring cleaning during Lent - and I mean really thorough, because only the walls remained when the women cleaned and even these were either painted or washed with soap and water - so all the clothing was renewed. Everything had to be the best for our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wearing lipstick + communion :

The priest himself will tell you not to wear lipstick because it is disrespectful to get lipstick on the spoon. The spoon might be disinfected by the wine but the wine will not get rid of lipstick residue.

Lipstick and Icons :

I never actually touch the icon with my lips. Others do and that is why the priest's helpers - those on the church committee - continuously wipe the glass covers of the icons during the service. They clean the glass with disinfectant.

Hope I haven't offended anyone.

One thing I forgot to mention is that when we are looking our best we feel better and we are then better able to help others.

Effie Ganatsios

30-07-2008, 12:24 PM

I might also add that for those who are happily married, I bet that for the majority of them, one or both spouses didn't have a "perfect" (or even close to this) body when they met their "other halves". Yet a genuine, truly loving attraction occurred, which does not diminish. It brings a smile to my face to see couples in their sixties, seventies and beyond, whose youthful looks and physique have long gone, yet, despite the passage of time, observing that their love and affection for one another has not faded.

My husband has always had an extremely "perfect" body.
He doesn't go to a gym, he doesn't diet, he doesn't do any of the things the commercials say are vital for health and a firm body. It is extremely irritating to have this kind of person in your life.............................................. ...............

What he does do is work, or walk, or garden, or anything and everything. He is extremely active and has a lot of self discipline in his life.

As I said - extremely irritating.....................

Effie

I suppose I should add -reluctantly of course - that he is also a very nice person and even helps me with my housework.

Effie Ganatsios

30-07-2008, 12:35 PM

In a sense, I'm poking fun at the hilarious paradox that "youth is wasted on the young." That's the whole point of life! I find it funny that the old people think that if they had young, more lively bodies again, they would not be prone to the same exact thing that young people are prone to already. It's really an egotism of sorts. And I don't like self deception, either.

Dear Luke, as I am an older person I would like to say something about "youth is wasted on the young".

Inside a 50, 60 or even 70 year old person is an 18 year old heart. Perhaps even a 100 year old person feels like this - I don't know but when I become 100 I will tell you.........

What has changed is the mind of that person. Older people have seen how futile most of the worrying and stress that young people have is. Older people even enjoy life more I think than younger people. They live each day as it comes.

Just imagine the combination of an old mind and a young body!!!! Wouldn't it be wonderful?

I believe that this is what the above adage really means.

Effie

Nina

30-07-2008, 02:01 PM

Leaving the house with unkempt hair and without any make-up at all will make you conspicuous in today's world.

In the past, women who painted their faces were not the norm, and their painted faces usually meant that they were "fallen women". What an odd phrase but I suppose it will do as well as something more frank.

My mother is 81 and she still likes to look her best. A little natural lipstick, hair nicely done, face creamed - this is all she has ever worn on her face. She even combs her eyebrows, something she has always done. She doesn't look painted, but she does look like what she is - a woman with self-respect. She doesn't "doll" herself up for men, but for herself and perhaps for other women, because she doesn't like other women to see her when she's not at the best.

:D God bless you dear Effie for spreading more happiness with these words. I have to confess that I also like make up, dressing nicely and so on... and it is a real struggle because all the time I read Fathers who exhort us (just read the other day one of the modern day elders saying the same thing like St. Chrysostom, or what Blessed Theodora says about her travels through the toll houses). I hope God will forgive me... I have changed a lot though because now when I go to church, I just put on only lip balm and not lipstick... maybe I should not even put on lip balm... ok I have to admit that I also use lip gloss when I know I will not receive Holy Communion.

But I do not take care of myself for others (men or women). That is why I laughed at the saying which I posted, because I do not take it seriously. Sometime we have to be sure enough to brush off things and to laugh at them and not take them seriously, or our selves seriously. Although I laughed during this occasion, I have been training myself forever to do this and still I am at letter A.

Dear Paul, yes you are right that women are competitive. Have you seen Olympics without any females in it? :) Degrees vary.

Marie A.

30-07-2008, 05:11 PM

... and it is a real struggle because all the time I read Fathers who exhort us (just read the other day one of the modern day elders saying the same thing like St. Chrysostom, or what Blessed Theodora says about her travels through the toll houses).

Hi Nina,

I have been having this discussion with my spiritual Mother about the whole modesty, make-up, hair thing so I would be interested to know which modern day elders speak about this issue and what they say...also what Blessed Theodora says too. Thanks for the info...

Peace to you in Christ and the Pangia,
Marie

Marie A.

30-07-2008, 05:12 PM

oops! I met to quote Nina in the above post but somehow I didn't..... Sorry about that.

Nina

30-07-2008, 09:06 PM

Dear Marie Angelle,

Blessed Theodora said:

Eleventh Torment. "We passed then the station of pride, where arrogant spirits make accusations of vanity,...

Link (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/theodora.aspx)

The modern-day Elder that I mentioned is Elder Philotheos Zervakos. He says:

Completely improper and against the Apostolic and Patristic traditions is the immodest dress of women. Most women have completely lost their minds. They cast away modesty and became naked to attract men. They enter fearlessly even into the sacred Churches not in order to pray, but in order to defile and scandalize those who are going to church....
The divine Chrysostom also bears witness to this in his 8th homily on 1 Timothy. "Those are not the garments of a lady making petitions how can you pray when you are wearing such garments?" These belong to mimes and musicians. None of them is proper for a woman, so do not imitate the harlots."
I think it would be good for such women to be forbidden to enter churches, as well as those who have cut their hair, until they mend their ways....
You have no need to paint yourself, and you gain nothing from doing so. You should not go to cinemas or theaters. Go to church, to sermons, and to spiritual people in order to benefit yourselves. Avoid idle talk, gossip, jokes, entertainment, and dances, because all these things harm the soul; if we do not cut them out and repent we will be punished in eternal life. Always remember God, my child, love Him, carry out His commandments; thank Him for enlightening you, and go to confession...strive to become children of God....

This quote came to me by email but it is also found here (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/paternalcounsels.aspx).

Please pray for me.

Marie A.

30-07-2008, 11:00 PM

Thank you so much Nina!

Yes, you have my prayers. Please pray for me also.

Peace in Christ and the Panagia,
Marie

Effie Ganatsios

31-07-2008, 07:15 AM

Nina and Marie Angelle, don't these quotes mean that women should not dress immodestly and that they should not draw attention to their appearance.

A woman's beauty is not what she looks like on the outside but what is in her. Is there anything more beautiful in this world than the tender looks women give children?

This look is filled with love, with compassion, and it clearly says "I am here to love and protect you". Even if a particular woman has a plain face, when she looks like this, she is beautiful.

We have all seen women with beautifully symmetrical faces look ugly - why? Because their character shows in their expressions. No matter how hard they try to look beautiful, they only achieve this when their faces are expressionless.

There are women who wear no makeup, leave their houses without taking care of their appearance, and are then proud because they believe that they are making a "statement" concerning their religion. They don't notice their sometimes angry and sometimes proud facial expressions.

Then there are women, like my sister in law, who are extremely religious, and who are beautiful because they live the words of Jesus in their everyday lives. I have never seen my sister in law wearing make-up i.e. lipstick (she might wear a cream I don't know, but surely this is also just skin protection). She is a beautiful woman physically but even more importantly, her character is beautiful.

Face cream and skin protection : Don't men cream their faces after shaving? Don't they do this to protect their skin?

I suppose I should clarify that when I say make-up I mean just cream, lipstick, eye shadow and mascara.

One thing I have noticed is that nuns have beautiful complexions but I believe that this is because of all the fasting they do. Lots of water and absolutely no meat.

Effie

The Dormition fast starts tomorrow.

Paul Cowan

31-07-2008, 03:42 PM

Face cream and skin protection : Don't men cream their faces after shaving? Don't they do this to protect their skin?

I suppose I should clarify that when I say make-up I mean just cream, lipstick, eye shadow and mascara.

Effie

The Dormition fast starts tomorrow.

Not to give a visual, but I shave in the shower and do not use any shaving creams or after shave. It's a waste of money and as the kid in "Home Alone" will tell you it BURNS. I don't pay anyone to hurt me. Including dentists. Don't grimmace. I have perfect teeth and not a single cavity. (knock on wood)

Effie: What is makeup if not the items you mentioned here? My wife does not wear ANY makeup. She is beautiful on the inside as well as outside. I love her with all my heart. Please pray for her. She is having a "bad" day.

I wish everyone a blessed Fast. I have a special treat every year. My wedding anniversary is on the Feast Day of the Dormition. We make it an extra special meal. We started our marriage for several years with a special creation. Pork Cowington. (Think Beef Wellington) I can give the recipe if anyone is interested.

Paul

Marie A.

31-07-2008, 03:56 PM

Yes the secret is the inner beauty that we build in our souls with the grace of God and with which we attain eternal life.

On another note...it is sad that no one is speaking out against immodesty..or at least very few. And then when one attends Church and sees it there also...well it just seems that it is so much accepted in the world and the Church too. It's almost as if you are an oddball if you don't wear all this make-up, have the latest hair cut, and wear tight fitting, revealing clothes.

After my visits to monasteries I really began to see how much modesty has been lost in the world and I found myself wanting to cover up so much more and also to be 'natural'.

Just a few thoughts....

Nina and Marie Angelle, don't these quotes mean that women should not dress immodestly and that they should not draw attention to their appearance.

A woman's beauty is not what she looks like on the outside but what is in her. Is there anything more beautiful in this world than the tender looks women give children?

This look is filled with love, with compassion, and it clearly says "I am here to love and protect you". Even if a particular woman has a plain face, when she looks like this, she is beautiful.

We have all seen women with beautifully symmetrical faces look ugly - why? Because their character shows in their expressions. No matter how hard they try to look beautiful, they only achieve this when their faces are expressionless.

There are women who wear no makeup, leave their houses without taking care of their appearance, and are then proud because they believe that they are making a "statement" concerning their religion. They don't notice their sometimes angry and sometimes proud facial expressions.

Then there are women, like my sister in law, who are extremely religious, and who are beautiful because they live the words of Jesus in their everyday lives. I have never seen my sister in law wearing make-up i.e. lipstick (she might wear a cream I don't know, but surely this is also just skin protection). She is a beautiful woman physically but even more importantly, her character is beautiful.

Face cream and skin protection : Don't men cream their faces after shaving? Don't they do this to protect their skin?

I suppose I should clarify that when I say make-up I mean just cream, lipstick, eye shadow and mascara.

One thing I have noticed is that nuns have beautiful complexions but I believe that this is because of all the fasting they do. Lots of water and absolutely no meat.

Effie

The Dormition fast starts tomorrow.

Paul Cowan

31-07-2008, 04:08 PM

Yes the secret is the inner beauty that we build in our souls with the grace of God and with which we attain eternal life.

On another note...it is sad that no one is speaking out against immodesty..or at least very few. And then when one attends Church and sees it there also...well it just seems that it is so much accepted in the world and the Church too. It's almost as if you are an oddball if you don't wear all this make-up, have the latest hair cut, and wear tight fitting, revealing clothes.

After my visits to monasteries I really began to see how much modesty has been lost in the world and I found myself wanting to cover up so much more and also to be 'natural'.

Just a few thoughts....

I've been screaming about it for years. There is a movie my wife convinced me to watch called "Sin Eater". It is a very pagan, protestant movie, but has a good message and shows "finally" well dressed modest actors. Its the only movie in 4 years my wife says is safe enough for me to watch. (she is my personal censure, I love her).

I have spoken to my priest about the dress code in church, and basically I have my own issues to work out. I think persoanlly it is up to the other women in the church to tell each other "honey, cover it up". It would be very inappropriate for a man to walk up to a woman/ girl/ another man's wife and say something or would it. This is the only reason I hate going to church. I have NO relationships at church because it is actually more harmful there than in the general public. I stay away from everyone. Since when did church become a fashion runway?

Why do men wear ties but women, well, expose as much as we cover up? And what's up with all the black boys with their pants pulled down below their bottoms? I don't get it. ok, I will get off my soap box. Now what was this thread about again?

Nina

31-07-2008, 04:11 PM

Nina and Marie Angelle, don't these quotes mean that women should not dress immodestly and that they should not draw attention to their appearance.

Effie

The Dormition fast starts tomorrow.

Dear Effie, yes. And I should tell that I do all those things (in addition to my other sins) and that is why I asked for your prayers.

Please pray for me.

Marie A.

31-07-2008, 05:38 PM

I have spoken to my priest about the dress code in church, and basically I have my own issues to work out. I think persoanlly it is up to the other women in the church to tell each other "honey, cover it up". It would be very inappropriate for a man to walk up to a woman/ girl/ another man's wife and say something or would it. This is the only reason I hate going to church. I have NO relationships at church because it is actually more harmful there than in the general public. I stay away from everyone. Since when did church become a fashion runway?
Why do men wear ties but women, well, expose as much as we cover up?

My husband feels the same way....he really wishes that our priest would say something about it.

Mary

31-07-2008, 06:19 PM

My husband feels the same way....he really wishes that our priest would say something about it.

I think it's appropriate for older women to tell younger women when they've crossed the boundaries. And by older, I mean those who're older than I am. =) I'm still a newbie. I've overheard them (the older women) mumbling amongst themselves, that it would be good if our priest did something about it.

Anyways, this summer, he did. He put a general note in the weekly bulletin, and I've noticed the women beginning to obey right away. Here's what he wrote:

Dress Code: With the arrival of summer and the warm weather it behooves us to remind everyone what is appropriate attire when attending the Divine Services. For men: slacks and collared shirts (short sleeves acceptable). For women: skirts or dresses (at least to the knee), no bare shoulders, backs or midriffs, T-shirts, flip flops, not have bare feet (bare feet acceptable for those visiting from the Coptic tradition). A general rule of thumb is that dress for church should always be modest and clean. The old adage of "Wearing your Sunday Best" comes to mind. None of us would attend a typical dinner at the home of a friend or relative dressed inappropriately. How much more, then, we should be attentive in presenting ourselves at the Heavenly Banquet of the King of the universe in the Lord's House. Thank you for your attention to this concern.I think the reason it wasn't offensive is because all the men do dress properly, but he included them in the note, and also, we've never had any coptic visitors except 20 some years ago, and they also don't go around barefoot anymore, as far as I'm aware.

I've always wondered about the reason for skimpy clothes in summer. The Beduins live in the desert and they look like they're dressed in their tents. I've also wondered why men dress more decently in summer than women do. If they don't get hot in their shoes and long pants, then what reason do we have for getting so hot? Unless, of course, we're suffering from hot flashes. In most situations, I've noticed that women feel colder than men do, and turn off the fans or close the windows or try to escape from that Evil Draft...

Oops... the thread was about body building. Sorry. Not inspired enough to connect my post to the title. You'll just have to forgive me. =)

Effie Ganatsios

31-07-2008, 08:28 PM

Effie: What is makeup if not the items you mentioned here? My wife does not wear ANY makeup. She is beautiful on the inside as well as outside. I love her with all my heart. Please pray for her. She is having a "bad" day.

Paul

Paul, have a wonderful anniversary. Ours was last Saturday - the same day as my brother's wedding. We have been married 39 years! He forgot!!!!!!!!!!

Paul, sometimes when we say make-up we are referring to make-up foundation and powder that my husband calls stucco for women.

"Stucco or render is a material made of an aggregate, a binder, and water. Stucco is applied wet and hardens to a very dense solid. It is used as a coating for walls and ceilings and for decoration. Stucco may be used to cover less visually appealing construction materials such as concrete, cinder block, or clay brick and adobe."

Effie Ganatsios

31-07-2008, 08:32 PM

Grant Paul's wife, I be-seech thee, thy divine helping grace, and endow her with patience and strength to en-dure her tribulations with complete submission to Thy Will.

Turn her distress into comfort, when she shall rejoice in thy mercy, and exalt and praise thy Holy Name, 0 Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

Effie Ganatsios

31-07-2008, 08:35 PM

I think it's appropriate for older women to tell younger women when they've crossed the boundaries. And by older, I mean those who're older than I am. =) I'm still a newbie. I've overheard them (the older women) mumbling amongst themselves, that it would be good if our priest did something about it.

Anyways, this summer, he did. He put a general note in the weekly bulletin, and I've noticed the women beginning to obey right away. Here's what he wrote:

I think the reason it wasn't offensive is because all the men do dress properly, but he included them in the note, and also, we've never had any coptic visitors except 20 some years ago, and they also don't go around barefoot anymore, as far as I'm aware.

=)

In Australia in the summer it was acceptable for men to wear shorts, long socks and short sleeved shirts in offices and banks. They looked decent and cool, in fact they looked good.

This was years ago and things might have changed now.

Michael Stickles

31-07-2008, 10:59 PM

On another note...it is sad that no one is speaking out against immodesty..or at least very few. And then when one attends Church and sees it there also...well it just seems that it is so much accepted in the world and the Church too. It's almost as if you are an oddball if you don't wear all this make-up, have the latest hair cut, and wear tight fitting, revealing clothes.

I thank God regularly that my own daughters (15 and 13) have shown no interest whatsoever in make-up, fashion, or dating. They pick out their own clothes, and we've never had to tell either of them they weren't allowed to wear something they wanted to get, since they're at least as picky about modesty as we are. As for boys - well, when I once teased the older one about how I'd handle things when she started dating, she gave me a dirty look for even thinking she might date and said "Dad, boys my age don't have any sense." (I wanted to stand up for my gender, but her point was irrefutable).

Looking ahead to the time when they might get interested in boys, I've used this metaphor with them: "Boys are like fish, and the way you act and dress works like bait. Different types of bait attract different types of fish. If you don't want certain types of boys to be flocking around you, don't act or dress in ways that are "bait" for them."

I don't think this metaphor works quite as well in the other direction, but I'll probably use it on my younger boys when they get older if they get into bodybuilding or other sports or whatever with the idea of trying to attract girls. The oldest boy doesn't have that mindset so far; hopefully the younger ones will be just as immune.

In Christ,
Michael

Effie Ganatsios

01-08-2008, 07:50 AM

Church and wearing revealing clothes.

Unfortunately it is true that some women and girls use this opportunity to display as much of themselves as possible. I don't think it's deliberate but just an indication of what women are wearing these days.

I know that the priests in our city have asked that women cover themselves modestly at wedding ceremonies, where it seems that the more flesh displayed the better. When the bridal dresses display the tops of breasts and bare shoulders and backs, brides and bridesmaids and matrons of honour now wear something on their shoulders during the ceremony. During the reception these are removed. Designers of wedding dresses here know that priests want women to wear modest gowns in church and their designs now include these additions.

Ken McRae

02-08-2008, 02:58 AM

I know that the priests in our city have asked that women cover themselves modestly at wedding ceremonies, where it seems that the more flesh displayed the better. When the bridal dresses display the tops of breasts and bare shoulders and backs, brides and bridesmaids and matrons of honour now wear something on their shoulders during the ceremony.

On the matter of a Christian dress code, I think it should go without saying that such a code does in fact exist. The Scriptures and Patristic writings are quite clear about the rule of Christian adornment; which code or rule we also know is rejected by the world. There is enmity between the carnally-minded worldling and the spiritually-minded ascetic, who is whole-heartedly given over to the exercise(s) of godliness. Such enmity is reflected in their outward adornments and garments. Now, with regard to the moral exactitude or precision required of all who are sincere, I offer the following Scripture text as a sort of primer on this critical moral question of conscience:-

Jude 17-23

"17": But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

"18": How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

"19": These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

"20": But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

"21": Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

"22": And of some have compassion, making a difference:

"23": And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Note especially the closing words: "Hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." An authentic Christian dress code should reflect this heavenly spirit and attitude of "hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." "Spotted by the flesh" I take to mean defiled or soiled by the carnal lusts and passions of the unregenerate or natural man. It is implicit in these words that the sincere Christian will hastily adopt a dress code charactized by the spirit of godliness, modesty, humility, chastity, discretion, and the fear of God.

The Orthodox Christian serves an Almighty King and Master, and should dress the part; as one who strives earnestly to enter into the kingdom of heaven, and does violence to himself and his mortal body, in order to subdue it to the higher powers. Have we suffered yet, for dressing like Christ? Perhaps if we dressed like Christ, or as the soldier of Christ, dressed like the saints, in sanctified clothing, that is pleasing to God, and not man, then suffer we would, in one way or another, according to Divine Providence; but suffer we will, the bitter enmity of natural men and women.

Evan

15-09-2008, 10:39 PM

I wonder if it's a sin to be a bodybuilder. Not to go on competitions, but put some muscule on so you could lok better, thats all. Sorry for the stupid and the inapropriate question. Thanks.

In response to the initial poster:

I train hard with weights seven days a week, twice a day, drink protein shakes and take creatine, so I guess you could call me an amateur bodybuilder.

I do it for three reasons. One, because I'm a student at a university, and I need to release the pent-up energy that I build up while poring over difficult texts for extended periods of time; two, because I intend to pursue a career in federal law enforcement, and I want to distinguish myself from competing applicants during the physical strength tests; and three, because I'm an extremely disciplined person, and I like to make sure my mind, body, and soul are in equally good shape. I know that sounds odd, but it makes sense to me.

Finally, I think there also may be a significant benefit as regards my witness. I think there's a tendency on the part of the secular world (at least, here in America) to believe that committed Christians, particularly men who are of the faith, are, for lack of a better word, wimps. People who learn that I am a Christian are often surprised and intrigued. Often, they laugh and assume that I'm joking, but when I tell them I'm quite serious, they tend to get serious too and ask follow-up questions. I think that's a good thing.

Of course, it's also entirely possible that I'm rationalizing my own vanity. If anybody thinks I'm in need of rebuking here, please do so.

C. Christoph

16-09-2008, 05:01 PM

In response to the initial poster:

I train hard with weights seven days a week, twice a day, drink protein shakes and take creatine, so I guess you could call me an amateur bodybuilder.

I do it for three reasons. One, because I'm a student at a university, and I need to release the pent-up energy that I build up while poring over difficult texts for extended periods of time; two, because I intend to pursue a career in federal law enforcement, and I want to distinguish myself from competing applicants during the physical strength tests; and three, because I'm an extremely disciplined person, and I like to make sure my mind, body, and soul are in equally good shape. I know that sounds odd, but it makes sense to me.

Finally, I think there also may be a significant benefit as regards my witness. I think there's a tendency on the part of the secular world (at least, here in America) to believe that committed Christians, particularly men who are of the faith, are, for lack of a better word, wimps. People who learn that I am a Christian are often surprised and intrigued. Often, they laugh and assume that I'm joking, but when I tell them I'm quite serious, they tend to get serious too and ask follow-up questions. I think that's a good thing.

Of course, it's also entirely possible that I'm rationalizing my own vanity. If anybody thinks I'm in need of rebuking here, please do so.

To bodybuild or not to bodybuild, as well as everything else here, is probably always a question that has many answers, (depending on personal cicumstances) provided by the spiritual father. Debating and even deciding how right or wrong something is, becomes redundant when the spiritual father instructs us otherwise. One person's medicine (or my medicine today) is another person's poison (or my own poison tomorrow) as Saint John Climacus says somewhere.

Orthodoxy in a way, is based on the our spiritual father...

I remember characteristically how a famous and holy Abbot would on the one hand disclose the "perfect conduct" when instructing his monks collectively, (something that is 'stored' in our orthodox tradition) in what might sound 'harsh' terms. e.g. "monks shouldn't have sugar in their coffee - that's a disgrace!" or "monks must pray all night"...
And on the other hand, compassionately yet confidently allowing them the opposite to what his 'general' word was in his personal (1-2-1) instructions: e.g. "have a mars bar my son!", or "make sure you never sleep less than 6 hours every night"

Luke

17-09-2008, 04:00 AM

To bodybuild or not to bodybuild, as well as everything else here, is probably always a question that has many answers, (depending on personal cicumstances) provided by the spiritual father. Debating and even deciding how right or wrong something is, becomes redundant when the spiritual father instructs us otherwise. One person's medicine (or my medicine today) is another person's poison (or my own poison tomorrow) as Saint John Climacus says somewhere.

Orthodoxy in a way, is based on the our spiritual father...

I remember characteristically how a famous and holy Abbot would on the one hand disclose the "perfect conduct" when instructing his monks collectively, (something that is 'stored' in our orthodox tradition) in what might sound 'harsh' terms. e.g. "monks shouldn't have sugar in their coffee - that's a disgrace!" or "monks must pray all night"...
And on the other hand, compassionately yet confidently allowing them the opposite to what his 'general' word was in his personal (1-2-1) instructions: e.g. "have a mars bar my son!", or "make sure you never sleep less than 6 hours every night"

Cristoph, this is a wonderful post. I often attempt to describe this aspect of the Orthodox faith to others, not concretely, but that it exists. Indeed, it is a way that we realize our steps in a life of repentance. The guidance of a spiritual father within the context of a recognizable and self-denying tradition is something that can be difficult to explain, but it is key to understanding our relationships with other persons (people). I like to talk about it because it is very distinctive when comparing eastern vs. western practice and thought. I do realize that you do have to be very careful since it is so nuanced; even to the point that it is hard to experience unless in the context already of the holy catholic and apostolic church.

Best regards,

Luke

Bob Robinson

17-09-2008, 10:09 PM

1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

Something I noticed early on in my life (I'm now 59) is that the older you get, the less energy you have. Those who are out of shape are disqualified from many activities. I was a Protestant missionary for many years, starting at 37. I worked with young people (18 - 35) and to keep up, I had to be in good shape. I took outreach teams to 10 or so different countries and we'd sleep on floors and work many hours doing all sorts of things. If you let your body get fat and unhealthy, you won't be able to do the things you want to or even perhaps things God would like you to do. So, "bodily exercise" does profit a bit and we need to treat our bodies as God intended--as houses of the Holy Spirit. If we are filling it with junk all day, we are going to be sickly. If we take care of it, exercise it, feed it properly, we'll be serving the Lord for many years (God willing of course).

I'm not a body builder, but I ride my bike, surf and walk a few times every week. I don't do it to look cool--I do it because I don't want my body to disqualify me from participating in as much as I can. So that's my answer: If you are body building to serve Christ, do it. If you are doing it to impress others, rethink what you are doing.

Effie Ganatsios

19-09-2008, 10:25 AM

What type of life did the early Christians have and why didn't they "exercise" as we perceive exercise to be today.

People didn't need gyms or a jogging schedule or whatever back then.

They walked everywhere (the best exercise).

They didn't have machines to help with their work, so all their muscles had a good daily workout.

They didn't have electricity so they got up at sunrise and went to bed after sunset.

They ate quality food grown by themselves or their neighbours, or they bought it at the local market.

I believe that what is meant by

"1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come."

means simply that we should not be concerned primarily with our bodies but with our souls.

Bob Robinson is so right when he says that when we abuse our bodies by eating too much and not being active we cannot do what we should for the Lord.

Can anything be more selfish than a person who pampers himself by sitting around all day, eating, watching TV etc.
and then righteously excuses himself by telling us that the Lord wants him to look after his soul and forget about his body?

Moderation in all things. Working our bodies as God intended they should be worked can only do us good.

Pumping up our muscles until we resemble plastic frogs is not what God intended.

For everything there is a purpose. Why go to a gym to pump up your muscles and waste your time on machines. Why not buy a block of land, and use your muscles by digging God's earth and planting vegetables or whatever else you want. At least an hour a day is spent at the gym "working out" and at the end of this time, what have you accomplished? Nothing really.

This hour, if spent in a garden, will ensure that your muscles and everything else in your body is exercised. And you are doing something worthwhile with your time. At the end of this "workout" you will have something to show for your efforts (apart from large muscles).

(Instead of using the garden example you can substitute whatever physical activity you enjoy that is also profitable).

When men lived naturally muscles developed naturally. I doubt anyone had the pumped up muscles we sometimes see on young men today.

The psychological reasons behind this need for a beautiful
body is another matter and needs a lot of discussion.

Bob Robinson is right when he says :

"So that's my answer: If you are body building to serve Christ, do it. If you are doing it to impress others, rethink what you are doing."