Forgiveness Sunday: asking your forgiveness

[Sieglinde McGinnis]

As tomorrow is the Sunday of Cheesefare for me, and therefore also Forgiveness Sunday, -and- as I will be rather busy tomorrow with family things and a gathering of friends later in the day, I wanted to take this opportunity to beg the forgiveness of all of you for any way in which I have given offense or scandal during the past year. I assure you of both my forgiveness and also of my prayers during this holy season.

Hospodi pomiluj,
Sieglinde

[Effie Ganatsios]

Sieglinde, I am a little confused : Cheesefare Sunday is on March 9th, 2008 for the New Calendar orthodox. Why is it earlier for you? Or am I confusing two different things?

No matter though. I forgive you and I also ask for your forgiveness. I am sometimes abrupt in my messages - I write and post without allowing an interval, perhaps of one day, to intervene.

Effie

[Paul Cowan]

I don't mind starting forgiveness Sunday a little early this year.

I pray and beg of you all to forgive me my transgressions against you in heart and in my writing.

Humbly,
Paul

[Kris]

Sieglinde, I am a little confused : Cheesefare Sunday is on March 9th, 2008 for the New Calendar orthodox. Why is it earlier for you? Or am I confusing two different things?


New Calendar Orthodox, except for the Church of Finland, use the Old Calendar for Pascha, and therefore for Cheesfare Sunday.

Since Sieglinde is a Catholic, I'm assuming tomorrow is cheesfare according to the Gregorian Paschalion.

[Nina]

I don't mind starting forgiveness Sunday a little early this year.

I pray and beg of you all to forgive me my transgressions against you in heart and in my writing.

Humbly,
Paul

No! I do not forgive you. :P

Do not be sad, I have still time. :) Although you have done no wrong to me, only blessings. :)

[Sieglinde McGinnis]

Kris is correct, today is Cheesefare/Forgiveness Sunday for me because I'm Catholic. Our Pascha is March 23! Thank you for extending your forgiveness to me, and I do the same although none of you have offended me in any way!

[Effie Ganatsios]

Sieglinde, I have to confess that I didn't even notice that you are Catholic and that's why I was quite confused. Sorry. How wonderful that you would think of posting such a message.

Effie

[Father David Moser]

Sieglinde, I am a little confused : Cheesefare Sunday is on March 9th, 2008 for the New Calendar orthodox.

It is for all Orthodox regardless of calendar. Forgiveness Sunday is part of the Paschal cycle which is the same for all Orthodox Christians regardless of the fixed calendar (new or old) that is used.

Fr David Moser

[M.C. Steenberg]

Forgiveness Sunday is part of the Paschal cycle which is the same for all Orthodox Christians regardless of the fixed calendar (new or old) that is used.

... except for the Orthodox Church in Finland.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Andreas Moran]

Quotation:
Originally Posted by Father David Moser
Forgiveness Sunday is part of the Paschal cycle which is the same for all Orthodox Christians regardless of the fixed calendar (new or old) that is used.

... except for the Orthodox Church in Finland.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

. . . and since the Orthodox Church in Finland will therefore mark Pascha well before the Jewish Passover, it is in gross violation of the Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Church.

[M.C. Steenberg]

. . . and since the Orthodox Church in Finland will therefore mark Pascha well before the Jewish Passover, it is in gross violation of the Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Church.

Be that as it may, as a point of accuracy, it remains true that the Orthodox Church in Finland follows the Gregorian Paschalion. This is at least in part because they were forced to do so by the Finnish government, by most accounts I've heard (though I've never looked further into it).

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Sieglinde McGinnis]

Sieglinde, I have to confess that I didn't even notice that you are Catholic and that's why I was quite confused. Sorry. How wonderful that you would think of posting such a message.

Effie

Wow, thanks Effie! I really do love this tradition, as I am a member of a lay confraternity whose Rule advises that we are to be at peace with all.....I also think it is a wonderful way to begin the holy season of the Great Fast - by emptying ourselves of misgivings and anger at others, we can perhaps be more able to be filled with the light of Christ and carry it into the world.

[Anna K.]

This is at least in part because they were forced to do so by the Finnish government, by most accounts I've heard (though I've never looked further into it).

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Sorry to say but it doesn't seem quite as simple as that to me. Of course my capacity to study all sources of Finnish church history is limited but what I've read, it doesn't sound completely so innocent. Things had to do with our country's becoming indepent of Russia in 1917 and the need (for reasons that at least afterwards and on the outside seem to be nationalistic) of the orthodox Finns also to become independent of the Russian Church and not associated in any way to the Soviet Union in the eyes of the lutheran majority...

But many hurtful regrettable things happened as there was much dispute about the calendar at the time. I don't want to blame anyone but I wish, I wish those things hadn't gone the way they did.

Many here say that Orthodoxy in Finland wouldn't have survived otherwise - but we'll never know will we? Many people left the Church to join the majority anyway in the pressure. I can't even know if I'd ever have heard of this Truth... but God knows - He would have had His ways in any case - but would I in my weakness been able to receive it would have been another story... He knows that, too.

A difficult post - forgive me, if I've been too judgemental, or too "round", or hurt someone!

In Christ
Anna

[Andreas Moran]

orthodox Finns also to become independent of the Russian Church and not associated in any way to the Soviet Union in the eyes of the lutheran majority...

How strange that people could have been prejudiced against the Russian Orthodox Church because of its association with the Soviet Union whose government persecuted it so much!

[Anna K.]

How strange that people could have been prejudiced against the Russian Orthodox Church because of its association with the Soviet Union whose government persecuted it so much!

I agree.

We people do act strange - it's almost in a bigger scale as if we sometimes as teenagers abandon completely everything our mother has said and taught (and especially what we've inherited from her) only to - hopefully - come to our senses in our wiser middle-aged years :).

Although some have the blessing to avoid this kind of rebellious struggle of growing up, many don't in our fallen world. And there's lots of mending to do sometimes, you only hope that it truly will be possible and dealt with.

In Christ
Anna

[Anna K.]

to - hopefully - come to our senses in our wiser middle-aged years :).



I wonder - how long it takes for a church to get to it's middle-aged years? And will it?

I hope I don't sound too much like I'm making excuses - I'm in the middle of this thing myself at the moment so I'm trying to understand and choose the right way for my own tiny little life.

I'm also somewhat shocked at the creepy crawlers under rocks that I lift on the way (how people acted towards each other and how you still can see traces of the history in people). - And that shock makes me try explain in order to not judge (I'm not doing a very good job, though).

I know I must sound obscure too, trying to say something but not say too much - so maybe I should stop.

In Christ
Anna

[Nina]

How strange that people could have been prejudiced against the Russian Orthodox Church because of its association with the Soviet Union whose government persecuted it so much!

Well for starters because of people like this Patriarch you mentioned also:


A book has recently been published in Russia which is the fullest account of what happened in the ROC between the death of St Tikhon and that of Patriarch Sergius. My wife is reading it and translating bits as she goes along. The book makes use of all archive material recently opened (extensive footnotes give chapter and verse for everything said). Russians obviously knew far less about Patriarch Sergius than did people in the West, and the book, it seems, makes distressing reading as it reveals the extent of the collaboration and betrayal by Sergius. But of interest is the position of those hierarchs and other clergy who opposed Sergius. It is sometimes said that they 'separated' from him and were not 'in communion' with him, implying that the ROC was 'split'. What seems to have been the most usual case is that Sergius's opponents ceased to commemorate him, but they never thought of themselves as being outside of the ROC/MP even though they considered that Sergius was. St Afanasii (Sakharov) refused to commemorate Sergius but did accept Alexy I. All this seems to support the view that the New Martyrs were indeed of MP and not, as some extreme people say, outside it. Thus the ROC is the Church of the Martyrs, and this is why one feels such grace in the churches in Russia.

Second, there are many misconceptions about Russia in Europe. For instance, I talked to some people who went to Estonia, and they said: "Oh, this country has suffered so much from the Russians! Like most of Europe. They occupied it with communism." When I nicely tried to remind them about the real history, they said other things, and it was impossible to get a different message through.

I think that something else is not helping. Whatever complains you Andreas posted about Russians in the thread "A Russian Orthodoxy?", are happening not only in Russia, but in many areas of Europe. And people feel resentful. I hope that these things will not become a barrier for other nations to see the light of Orthodoxy that comes from Russia. To apply a saying from Geronda Paisios (I think) I hope that people will be like the bee that looks for flowers even if the field has a lot of waste.

[Paul Cowan]

As we once again enter Great Lent and prepare for Forgiveness Vespers; of all of you I have lied to, slighted by comments or lack of, ridiculed, demeaned, held in comtempt, talked behind your back, spoken harshly to, embarassed, injured your pride or in any other way have caused you pain, I prayfully and humbly ask your forgiveness. Please forgive me.

THE worst of sinners
Paul

[Marianthy]

Not knowing where else to post this, i wanted to ask for the forgiveness of all my monachos friends. May you and your families have a blessed sarakosti.

Marianthy

[Nina]

I received this by email from a friend. But I was also told that there is something to be corrected in number 3. Since I am not so knowledgeable I am just posting it as it is and then friends or priests from here can correct it. Thank you. And please forgive me!


Why Is Forgiveness Sunday so-called?

St Tikhon answers this question quite well:

"Today is called "Forgiveness Sunday". It received this name from the pious Orthodox Christian custom at Vespers of asking each other's forgiveness for discourtesy and disrespect. We do so, since in the forthcoming fast we will approach the sacrament of Penance and ask the Lord to forgive our sins, which forgiveness will be granted us only if we ourselves forgive each other. "If ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matt. 6.14, 15)" (From a sermon by St Patriarch Tikhon, when he was Bishop of Alaska and the Aleutian Islands. 1901. Text taken from email posted to an Orthodox mailing list)

QUESTION 2

What event is commemorated on Forgiveness Sunday?

On the last Sunday before Great Lent begins, we remember the expulsion of Adam and Eve from paradise.

Adam was banished from Paradise through disobedience / and cast out from delight, / beguiled by the words of a woman. / Naked he sat outside the garden, lamenting 'Woe is me!' / Therefore let us all make haste to accept the season of the Fast / and hearken to the teaching of the Gospel, / that we may gain Christ's mercy // and receive once more a dwelling-place in Paradise. (Sticheron from Lord I have cried, 6th tone, Forgiveness Sunday)

QUESTION 3

The last weekend before Great Lent is the last time we do several things. Can you think of three things that are not done again until after Great Lent (or even well after Pascha)?

Forgiveness Sunday is the last day in which we eat milk, cheese, eggs and other dairy products until Pascha.

It is also the last Sunday we will serve St. John Chrysostom's liturgy until Palm Sunday (which, by the way, is not considered to be in Great Lent). During the holy fast, St Basil's liturgy is served on Sundays.

The matins service for this weekend is the last time the theologically rich and compunctionate singing of "By the Waters of Babylon" psalm until next year. It is only sung in church the three Sundays that precede Great Lent.

QUESTION 4

Fasting is discussed in the services on Forgiveness Sunday, and all the days of Great Lent. What *most important* kind of fasting is stressed over and over?

The services of the church and the fathers stress over and over that our physical fast from food is useless if we do not also strive to "fast" from our iniquities. Fasting from food is an important aid to the help purify the soul, and to gain in virtue.

The season of the virtues now has come / and the Judge is at the door. / Let us not hold back with darkened face, / but let us keep the Fast, / offering tears, contrition and almsgiving; / and let us cry: / 'Our sins are more in number than the sand of the sea; / but, Deliverer of all, forgive each one of us, // that we may receive an incorruptible crown.' (Sessional Hymns after the 1st Psalter Reading)

The arena of the virtues has been opened. / Let all who wish to struggle for the prize now enter, / girding themselves for the noble contest of the Fast; / for those that strive lawfully are justly crowned. / Taking up the armor of the Cross, / let us make war against the enemy. / Let us have as our invincible rampart the Faith, / prayer as our breastplate, and as our helmet almsgiving; / and as our sword / let us use fasting that cuts away all evil from our heart. / If we do this, we shall receive the true crown // from Christ the King of all at the Day of Judgment. (Praises)

Adam was driven out of Paradise, / because in disobedience he had eaten food; / but Moses was granted the vision of God, / because he had cleansed the eyes of his soul by fasting. / If then we long to dwell in Paradise, / let us abstain from all needless food; / and if we desire to see God, / let us like Moses fast for forty days. / With sincerity let us persevere in prayer and intercession; / let us still the passions of our soul; / let us subdue the rebellious instincts of the flesh. / With light step let us set out upon the path to heaven, / where the choirs of angels with never-silent voice / sing the praises of the undivided Trinity; / and there we shall behold the surpassing beauty of the Master. / O Son of God, Giver of Life, / in Thee we set our hope: / count us worthy of a place there with the angelic hosts, / at the intercessions of the Mother who bore Thee, O Christ, / of the apostles and the martyrs // and of all the saints.' (Praises)

QUESTION 5
What is commemorated next Sunday (the first Sunday of Great Lent)?


On the first Sunday of Great Lent we celebrate the "Triumph of Orthodoxy".

QUESTION 6
What is the fasting typicon for next week, and all the days in the Lenten season?

During all of Great Lent, we eat no animal products (with one exception). We abstain from all flesh meat, fish, milk, cheese and other milk products, eggs, olive oil, wine and hard liquor on all weekdays (Monday through and including Friday). On the weekend (Saturday and Sunday), the fast is relaxed a little. We can have olive oil or wine if we wish. On Annunciation, fish is allowed, since this is such a joyful feast of the Mother of God.


QUESTION 7
During Great Lent, we sing the long and rich canon of St Andrew of Crete. When and in which services?

The first 4 evening of Great Lent (Clean Monday through Clean Thursday), we serve Great Compline, and a portion of the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete. During Matins for the 5th Thursday of Great Lent, (usually served Wednesday evening), we read the life of St. Mary of Egypt, and chant the Great Canon in its entirety.

QUESTION 8
Describe the dialogue in the Great canon. Who is speaking? Who is being spoken to?

The Great Canon is a one way dialogue of St Andrew speaking to his soul. We would do well to put ourselves in his place when the canon is being chanted.

QUESTION 9
Describe in general terms the content of the Great Canon.

The Great canon is a dialogue between St Andrew of Crete and his soul. He brings to bear many examples of the righteous and the unrighteous from the Old and New Testaments in order to show himself good and bad examples, make himself ashamed of his sins, and spur himself to repentance. There is also significant mystical theology and typology that the saint elucidates in the midst of his lamentations.

QUESTION 10
What are the essential virtues that are a necessity for salvation that shine forth brightly in the words of the Great Canon?

Humility, and with it, self-knowledge. Hope in God, because of knowledge of WHO HE IS.

[Anna Stickles]

This is an excerpt from our bulletin insert I thought it might be food for thought.

"To forgive and be forgiven! This is exactly how we turn from division to unity, from hostility to love, from separation to unification. But to forgive is not simply to ignore the shortcomings... or worse to altogether dismiss others with the wave of a hand as hopeless and not worth the trouble. Forgiveness does not mean indifference or scorn or cynicism. Only someone who has suddenly realized with all his soul the full horror of love's absence from the world, who has felt the bottomless grief of that loneliness to which man has condemned himself by his self-affirmation and self-love -- only they are capable of forgiving and being forgiven." Fr Schmemman

The problem we have is that in experiencing Loves absence so often we get angry or bitter or hopeless, blaming the other rather then realizing that our own self-love and hardness of heart has caused this condition. We isolate ourselves in our anger, rather then praying to Christ and finding the power to forgive in His love. He who truly loves is the only one who can truly feel loved. But only in letting go of self-love, ie the demand to be loved, and cutting off the habit of blaming others for their lack of love - can we truly love.

The path to love and unity is to experience love's absence in sorrow not anger; in humility and willing suffering not demands for our own consolation; in forgiveness and compassion not blame. "Turn not your face away from your child, for I am afflicted." This is what we pray on Forgiveness Sunday. This is the path to bright sadness, and out of our dark grief.

[Michael Stickles]

I also ask forgiveness of all of you for the offenses I have given, whether by harshness, pride, lack of understanding, or any other means. May our Lord guide you throughout the Great Lent and into the joy of Pascha.

Humbly in Christ,
Michael

[Vasiliki D.]

I ask forgiveness from the Moderators who have had to moderate me for an entire year. I ask forgiveness for offending and hurting people unknowingly but most of all I ask forgiveness for not taking the time to pray for all of you as much as I know I can and should.

I propert wont change much but Im trying, may God forgive all of us and may we truly expand ourselves during Great Lent.

[Peter S.]

I asked my priest of forgiveness to him personally yesterday and he said "..and God will forgive us."

In Christ,
Peter

[Paul Cowan]

I asked my priest of forgiveness to him personally yesterday and he said "..and God will forgive us."

In Christ,
Peter

I would like to ask when asking people their forgiveness their response has been " God forgives". I wondered in my heart if I had hurt everyone so badly they were not willing to forgive me but saying only God will forgive me as if they were incapable of the act themselves.

This was humbling to think my sins against my parish were so great they could only ask God to forgive me and it stung a bit also that no one said they would forgive me.

Paul

[Father David Moser]

In question number three, one of the answers is:

It is also the last Sunday we will serve St. John Chrysostom's liturgy until Palm Sunday (which, by the way, is not considered to be in Great Lent). During the holy fast, St Basil's liturgy is served on Sundays.
This is a deceptively correct answer (IOW it is a trick question). While it is true that we will not serve the liturgy of St John Chysostom on a Sunday during lent, that does not account for the fact that all the Saturday liturgies during Lent and Lazarus Sat (which is also outside of lent - it is a part of Holy Week) are of St John Chrysostom and the liturgy of the Annunciation (when it falls during Lent as it usually does except for this year) is that of St John Chrysostom. So in a very literal sense the answer is correct, however, it is a "trick question".

Fr David Moser

[Olga]

My dear Paul

My understanding of the custom of the respondent of "God forgives" to the asking of forgiveness by another simply acknowledges the fact that only God Himself can truly wipe out our sins. As far as the east is from the west, so far has He taken our sins from us (Ps 102). However, as we know, each of us mere human mortals, still has the duty, for the sake our own salvation, of forgiving our neighbour, if we are to expect forgiveness of our own sins from God, as last Sunday's Gospel says.

Having said that, being mindful of my own faults, high-handedness, smugness and presumption, beg forgiveness from all whom I've offended and wronged on this forum.

[Evan]

Forgive me, my brothers and sisters, for all I have done and all that I have failed to do. May the Lord our God have mercy on us through His Son and Word and reconcile us to one another in the unity of His Spirit, in Whom we live and have our being, insofar as we truly live.

In Christ,
Evan

[Herman Blaydoe]

I would like to ask when asking people their forgiveness their response has been " God forgives". I wondered in my heart if I had hurt everyone so badly they were not willing to forgive me but saying only God will forgive me as if they were incapable of the act themselves.

This was humbling to think my sins against my parish were so great they could only ask God to forgive me and it stung a bit also that no one said they would forgive me.

Paul

To say "I forgive you" is not a very humble answer. To say "God forgives" is to remind ourselves that we are not greater than God and we, as professed followers of Christ, are commanded to forgive, for us it is not a "favor", but merely an obedience, so we shouldn't claim too much credit for ourselves. Therefore we say "God forgives" and our own forgiving should merely be assumed, since if we do not forgive, we ourselves will not be forgiven.

To all whom my foolish posts or actions (or inaction) have given offense, I beg forgiveness.

Herman

[Nina]

Father David, thank you.

Paul I also feel like you... not that ppl had smth against me but I was in my mind asking "why would you call God into this when I am asking forgiveness from *you*." I felt basically that the other person said because God forgives that person is obliged to forgive, not that the person genuinely forgives. Now leave God out of this. Cause God told we must forgive each other. If I keep something against someone but God forgives him I still keep God bound to not forgive him. So this expression (although Olga's and Herman's answers make a lot of sense) gives a bit of space for misinterpratation. This is between two people so shouldn't we keep the responsibility to ourselves and know that fulfilling this duty we will also make the job easier on God so He does not have to not forgive our fellow human because we keep resentment or similar feelings(?). No truly. It is not we who forgive of course, but if someone has done something against me it is I who is responsible in front of the entire universe and the other person and God to forgive. It is I who has the responsibility to forgive my "enemy" or friend. :) Paul you can see this expression is not so easy on me too. In some cases it just can come across as prideful and cause more pride. We can simply say what we have in our soul. I can't forgive you at this particular moment. or I forgive you and please forgive me. Or You have done nothing wrong to me, but please forgive me if I have done smth. I do not ask "God forgives please forgive me." God has the final word but this at this particular moment is between me and you. Truth is better.

[Effie Ganatsios]

On forgiveness Sunday, children visit their parents' home, kiss their hands, and ask for their forgiveness.

Our relatives and friends telephone us and we ask each other's forgiveness.

The love you feel when you do this is amazing. Not once have I ever had anyone express anything other than the love they feel for me.

Forgiveness blesses the one forgiving and the one being forgiven.

I am one day late I admit but I had guests yesterday and we had a really severe snowstorm, not really good excuses but they are true.

I ask for everyone's forgiveness for anything that was inappropriate in my posts, and also for my huge ego.

I am deeply appreciative of all the people on this forum and can find nothing to forgive really. I benefit so much from reading all the posts that I can only feel gratitude.

Have a wonderful Lent.

Effie

[Michael Stickles]

I would like to ask when asking people their forgiveness their response has been " God forgives". I wondered in my heart if I had hurt everyone so badly they were not willing to forgive me but saying only God will forgive me as if they were incapable of the act themselves.

There must be variations in practice. In our parish, the response during Forgiveness Vespers is some variation on "God forgives, and I forgive also", or, "I forgive and God forgives". Personally, I've found it very meaningful to have God's forgiveness of us all, and our forgiveness of each other, linked in that way.

In Christ,
Michael

[Anna Stickles]

Actually even within our parish it varies. Most people do say both, but some just say "God forgives". I sometimes feel funny saying "I forgive" when someone hasn't offended me, or asking forgiveness from people I have almost no interaction with, but there is a sermon in the front of our book for the Forgiveness Vespers that I found really helpful.

"One may ask, however: Why should I perform this rite when I have no 'enemies'? Why should I ask for forgiveness from people who have done nothing to me, and whom I hardly know? To ask these questions is to misunderstand the Orthodox teaching concerning forgiveness. It is true that open enmity, personal hatred, real animosity may be absent from our life, though if we experience them, it may be easier for us to repent, for these feelings open contradict divine commandments. But Christ reveals to us that there are much subtler ways of offending Divine Love. There are indifference, selfishness, lack of interest in other people, of any real concern for them -- in short, what wall which we usually erect around ourselves, thinking that by being 'polite' and 'friendly' we fulfill God's commandments. The rite of forgiveness is so important precisely because it makes us realize -- be it only for a minute -- that our entire relationship to other men is wrong, makes us experience that one encounter of one child of God with another, makes us feel that mutual "recognition" which is so terribly lacking in our cold and dehumanized world.

On that unique evening, listening to the joyful Paschal hymns we are called to make a spiritual discovery: to taste of another mode of life and relationship with people, of life whose essence is love. We can discover that always everywhere Christ, the Divine Love Himself, stands in the midst of us, transforming our mutual alienation into brotherhood. As I advance toward the other as the other comes to me -- we begin to realize that it is Christ who brings us together by His love for both of us."

I guess realizing how uncomfortable we feel with each other says something about our need to ask forgiveness and go through this rite so that we can make that step toward each other even if it is only this tiny step once a year.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I would like to ask when asking people their forgiveness their response has been " God forgives". I wondered in my heart if I had hurt everyone so badly they were not willing to forgive me but saying only God will forgive me as if they were incapable of the act themselves.

This was humbling to think my sins against my parish were so great they could only ask God to forgive me and it stung a bit also that no one said they would forgive me.

Paul

Remember though that "I forgive" and "God forgives" are two very different things.

When we say "I forgive" this means that I lay aside the passion of resentment, remembrance of wrongs, etc and instead embrace reconciliation with my fellow man. This is a person to person act you could say.

When we say that "God forgives" however we mean something very different from this. What we mean is that His grace is at work in our regards in a restorative sense. And how is this? Because we have already approached Him in asking other's forgiveness of our offenses towards them.

It is crucial then that we recognize this dynamic in the rite of forgiveness. Although my forgiving you is an aspect of what is going on more central to the rite is that I ask you to forgive me (ie I admit my sin in your regards, I admit to you that I am a weak sinner and that my sin affects your life). From this God 'forgives' and restores us.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

Remember though that "I forgive" and "God forgives" are two very different things.

When we say "I forgive" this means that I lay aside the passion of resentment, remembrance of wrongs, etc and instead embrace reconciliation with my fellow man. This is a person to person act you could say.

When we say that "God forgives" however we mean something very different from this. What we mean is that His grace is at work in our regards in a restorative sense. And how is this? Because we have already approached Him in asking other's forgiveness of our offenses towards them.

It is crucial then that we recognize this dynamic in the rite of forgiveness. Although my forgiving you is an aspect of what is going on more central to the rite is that I ask you to forgive me (ie I admit my sin in your regards, I admit to you that I am a weak sinner and that my sin affects your life). From this God 'forgives' and restores us.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Father Raphael, thank you.
I like how you explain this and it makes much more sense.

It is indeed two different things. And of course (Michael) bringing God's name in any interaction is a blessing and of course I do not find that weird. Plus as Fr. Raphael says that by participating in the forgiveness act which God has instituted and commanded, by default He is present. What is important, is to express it in a way (esp. if there has been a problem between the 2 people involved) that the person who asks forgiveness does not get hurt, or that a word does not cause the pride to awake. This will defeat the goal of forgiveness act. I think how we formulate our response to someone asking forgiveness will make a big difference. If someone has hurt me I can't just say: "God forgives. I forgive" This makes it seem prideful. So I align myself with God in this case? And where does it leave the person that approached me, that placed himself below me by humbling himself and asking *me* to forgive, if I place myself in the same line with God? I'd rather say. "I forgive you my brother/sister. Please forgive me too. And may God forgive us both." This places us in the same place with the offender since we both are sinners and no fault belongs 100% to one party, and ultimately each sin is against Christ. The purpose of the forgiveness act is to place ourselves below our fellow man even if he/she has hurt us. And not act like the Pharisee. Christ did not offend anyone and still He washed the feet of His disciples. He placed Himself below than His Apostles. This teaches a lot.

Anna, if someone has not hurt you and asks your forgiveness (which is normal since often we do not know if we have hurt, or not the other person) it is not bad at all to say. "My sister/brother you have not offended me. Please forgive me if I have offended you. And may God forgive us both." :)

[Peter S.]

When my priest said "..and God will forgive us" I knew he had forgiven me not saying it. What is more important is that God forgives. In addition my priest asked publicly of forgiveness beforehand. What is important is that we admit that we have done wrong as Fr Raphael says. That will also be important on Judgement Day, if we are in that position then, I suppose/speculate.

If I had approched a person with a flower and admited my wrongs asking for forgiveness and he/she didnt forgive me...then it is his/her problem.

In our parish we say "forgive me" and answer "forgive me" usually. (This is what I suppose and think). Maybe the best is this version or answering "..and God will forgive us".

Although I dont feel worthy to say ..and God will forgive us/forgives. Maybe this is a wrong thought?

Dont approach someone in the rite thinking of forgiving that person beforehand. No. Just think of your own fault(s). If not, the devil can play you a trick. I know this... Admit your wrongs and ask for forgiveness. Then God will work it out. Maybe you dont get forgiveness.. As Effie and Anna says Forgiveness Sunday is/ can be a loveable day.

In Christ,
Peter

[Peter S.]

And always forgive when someone asks you of forgiveness of course... but that comes after admitting your own faults.

[Peter S.]

This is late, but please forgive me all you I have offended willingly or unwillingly the last year.

In Christ,
Peter