Psychopathy and repentance

[Jonathan Michael]

I would like to open up a discussion about psychopathy/sociopathy and the Christian faith. I have been reading about this subject recently and there are some things that trouble me.

Psychopathy is something that is very common in the modern world. A lot of people think of psychopaths as serial-killers and other criminals, but this is not the case. One out of every hundred people has some form of psychopathy, though when the person lives a non-criminal lifestyle it is often called sociopathy. There are a number of indicators for psychopathy but one of the biggest and most significance is a lack of empathy and conscience. Psychopaths/sociopaths simply do not care about other people, and are completely incapable (so physcologists say) of relating other people's suffering to their own and therefore are incapable of remorse.

So, my problem is this: if there are people who are incapable of empathy, remorse, and who have no conscience - how can these people ever repent?

The other troubling thing is that most research suggests that psychopaths are born the way they are, and that the condition is untreatable. This, to me at least, appears completely contrary to Christian teaching, whereby everyone can be saved; therefore implying that everyone can repent.

Any thoughts welcome; or counter-examples that show the accepted research to be wrong.

Thank you.

I include a link to a Wikipedia article on the subject (with the usual caveat about Wiki's variable reliability)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

[Owen Jones]

Traditionally understand, the cause of this is demonic influence and/or possession. Such people under such a complete demonic spell need the help of faithful people. I have seen psychopathy of the type described above expelled from many hundreds of people who are exposed to the truth about themselves and led to prayer and self-denial, who gain "empathy" for others, i.e. love and compassion, and who discover mental clarity, and seek to do God's will.

[Eric Peterson]

A good point, Mr. Jones.

Also, to add to the discussion, it is possible to "kill" one's conscience. When one sins and ignores the conscience often enough, one begins to not hear it anymore. Some people are in such a state that their conscience can be called dead. Whether or not it is possible to revive them spiritually depends on God, Who alone can find entry into the soul.

[Owen Jones]

Ah, yes, but...it usually requires some cooperation on our part, even if out of desperation.

[Mary]

So, my problem is this: if there are people who are incapable of empathy, remorse, and who have no conscience - how can these people ever repent?

I'm like that most of the time. And the few times I weep, it's more out of self pity than anything else. The hardness of my heart frightens me.

Mary

[Owen Jones]

God works through people. There are many people in our churches suffering from severe forms of pshycho-pathology. Traditionally, the congregation would pray for them intensely, both with them physically and at other times, and also there are intense practices taught by our Lord and practiced by all of the great ascetics which work to heal a damaged psyche, but unfortunately these practices are not in place, for the most part in our parishes. So people go to secular therapists.

[Nina]

There are a number of indicators for psychopathy but one of the biggest and most significance is a lack of empathy and conscience. Psychopaths/sociopaths simply do not care about other people, and are completely incapable (so physcologists say) of relating other people's suffering to their own and therefore are incapable of remorse.

So, my problem is this: if there are people who are incapable of empathy, remorse, and who have no conscience - how can these people ever repent?



Fear of God can help in this case.



A brother came to see an old man and asked him, “Abba, why is my heart
so hard, and why do I not fear God?” The old man said to him, “In my
opinion, if a man bears in mind the reproaches he deserves, he will
acquire the fear of God.” The brother said to him, “What does this
reproach consist of?” The old man said to him, “In all he does, a man
should restrain his own soul, saying to it, ‘Remember that you must
come before God,’ and he should also say to himself, ‘What have I to do
with the others?’ I think that if someone lives in this way, the fear
of God will come to him.”However, not all in the world have a spiritual father, or are Orthodox, or other Christian, or Jews - since those who read in the OT (and believe) will see that God says that He is a stumbling stone/rock and we need to fear Him. We need to hear about God's love, however it is equally important to be trained in fear of God and to learn to fear God from childhood. Some of the most persistent "tales from Bible" my grandmother shared were such stories like that of the rich man and Lazarus, (and here she spent much time elaborating on the extreme need for a drop of water of the person in hell) and so on.

Our heart always is hardened when we sin, otherwise we can not sin and give bitter pain to our God. However thank God we have the grace of repentance and confession, spiritual fathers, Fathers with their wonderful advise, prayer etc.

[Nina]

Also another Patristic thought on the subject, underlines the impersonal character of modern times which impacts our hearts.



Now that conveniences have exceeded all bounds, they have become
inconveniences. Machines have multiplied, distractions have also
multiplied, and man has been made into a machine. Machines and iron
order men around, which is why their hearts have become as hard as steel.

Elder Paisios of Mt. Athos

[Jonathan Michael]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I very much would like to believe that people have been cured of psychopathy and been brought to repentance. It does occur to me that the humility needed for a Christian life, and the fact that we must all come to Christ with a broken heart is possibly quite antithetical to modern psychiatric techniques, which would encourage more self-esteem.

Nina, you said:

"Fear of God can help in this case."

[referring to those who have no empathy for others] and I very much agree with this. It does strike me that if someone is completely selfish, then they can still be compelled to acts of charity and discouraged from destructive acts if they truly believe that God is watching over them. It might not be a popular view these days, because it is often seen as a medieval throwback to constantly fear God, but if that is the only way that can initially lead a man to repentance then I think God's loving will overides what we think is truly "loving".

Another thought stemmed from this. It does appear that psycopaths are becoming more common in modern times. Of course, this could be because it is better recognized now, however a lot of people do think it to be the case; I have read some people even suggest that psychopathy is an evolutionary advancement(!). If it is true that incidents of pyschopathy amongst people is increasing, could it not be the "fruits", or even "judgement" of a more secularized world? If society teaches us that there is no God, then suddenly there is no reason to stop the pyschopaths amongst us from rising up into positions of power and influence. What can a secular atheist say to these men and women who feel no empathy and see all other people as less than them? Without God, nothing.

Please excuse this idle thought, I do not mean to suggest that God has created pyscopaths to punish our modern world, but insofar as God's will is sometimes permissive, it may be that He has allowed us (particularly in the West; but also in eastern countries that have practised communism) to reap what we've all sown.

Lord have mercy!

[Floyd Frantz]

Michael,
It may be that the answer to your question lies somewhere in what Jesus said, "with God, all things are possible". Is repentance even possible without God's help? Does He not love us first, before we love Him? With God, all things are possible that for the doctors may be impossible. Recovery from alcoholism is the classic example, with in fact millions of sober people in AA saying that their recovery is based in spirituality, ie, God, or "Higher Power".

But then even this spiritual program gets into the question of being "able to be honest" with ones' self. People who cannot be honest with themselves are less likely to get sober. But turning that around, is honesty a spiritual value or a psychological process?

It spins a lot of ways....you gave us a nice post, one worth thinking about.

Floyd

[John M.]

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I'm like that most of the time. And the few times I weep, it's more out of self pity than anything else. The hardness of my heart frightens me.

Mary

I'm the exact opposite. No matter how much pain, physical or emotional, I will not cry for myself. But for others and even for a character in a movie who has some tragedy happen to him or her, my tears come pouring down.

When I was 5 years old my leg got wounded and I was taken to a doctor's surgery. I cried at first until we got to the doctor's and he said he would fix my leg. Then I watched him stitch it up without a drop of tear. The doctor told my mother in front of me that I may grow up to become a doctor.

Then oneday I was asked to bandage someone else's injury. I did it ok but it hurt me inside more than to see my own flesh torn open. I hate seeing other's injuries.

For the thread. I believe that it would be rare for a person with no conscience to answer a call to join God's Holy Body but, if they do, they receive a guardian angel at baptism. That should take care of conscience and empathy, don't you think?

I'm only guessing. I have a strong conscience. It's stronger than me.

John

[John M.]

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Another thought stemmed from this. It does appear that psycopaths are becoming more common in modern times. Of course, this could be because it is better recognized now, however a lot of people do think it to be the case; I have read some people even suggest that psychopathy is an evolutionary advancement(!). If it is true that incidents of pyschopathy amongst people is increasing, could it not be the "fruits", or even "judgement" of a more secularized world? If society teaches us that there is no God, then suddenly there is no reason to stop the pyschopaths amongst us from rising up into positions of power and influence. What can a secular atheist say to these men and women who feel no empathy and see all other people as less than them? Without God, nothing.
I agree with your ideas except for one, on the increase of psychopathy and have a couple points to add.

1) Antichrist seems like a perfect candidate for this condition.

2) Narcotic drug use has been increasing in the last few decades and I think it releases tendencies for various mental and emotional disorders.

An Orthodox friend of mine attended school with an ethnically Greek Orthodox friend. His friend was a straight A student until he first tried marijuana. Apparently, he inherited the genes for schizophrenia but the condition did not appear until he smoked his first sample of canabis. His reaction was extremely unusual. He acted as though he had taken a strong halucinogen.

After that he exibited the symptoms of schizophrenia and his non-psychotic behaviour was also abnormal. His grades in school dropped to the bottom of his class. He dropped to a lower class. He continued smoking the weed and got worse. He left school and was diagnosed as disabled and unfit for work or study.

He behaved literally mentally retarded when not high and from a single puff of canabis he was launched into outer space. Finally, he became suicidal. His first attempt was to dig a big hole in his parent's backyard then enter it while holding onto some ropes that he attached to heavy scrap metal objects. He pulled them onto himself but only got hurt and called out for help.

His next attempt was different and successful. So he was normal and very intelligent until about 16 years of age and then he was insane until his death at about 38 years of age. Most schizophrenics 'emerge' in their early to mid twenties I believe, but drugs can bring it on earlier and even bring it on in a person that has the genes but will never suffer the symptoms if remaining drug free.

Twin studies of adopted twins raised in separate families and environments usually don't help with knowing if someone would have been symptom free without trying drugs because usually, both twins take up drugs or both do not. Both smoke and both quit around the same time in life.

But definitely drug and early alcohol abuse have been known to contribute to schizophrenia and therefore psychotic behaviour at an increasing level in the population.

By the way. Psychosis is basically a condition where the brain loses touch with reality and can hallucinate through one or more of the senses to the point where a person has an impossible or almost impossible time of discerning what is real and what is imagined.

Medicine very similar to antihistamines is used to control it along with tranquilizers and others for some patients. When under control, patients act quite normal and can hold down responsible occupations. But every so often, even with medication, the patient becomes psychotic, even for a few weeks. That means they start having hallucinations, usually audio in type. They hear sounds that no one else does. They can think they hear their friends or family plotting to kill them. Some have visual and even hallucinate odors, like their own organs rotting inside.

For males in their early to mid twenties, the suicide rate is about ten times (1,000%) that of the rest of society. For other schizophrenics the rate of suicide is about the same as for the rest of the population.

Schizophrenics can have a conscience as strong as anyone elses. So, though they suffer from psychosis, they are not psychopaths.

[Dave Ferguson]

This is very interesting. Actually the drugs used to control schitzophrenia are usually dopamine inhibitors. They have side effects that are very similar to Parkinson's disease. They are very effective. I had a friend, a schitzophrenic who committed suicide a couple of years ago. He had been with a Roman Catholic community in the south of France when his symptoms began to develop. After he became schitzophrenic he returned to the UK and got involved with an evangelical house church. He left this church because he felt it was unsuportive when his wife also a schitzophrenic committed suicide. Towards the end of his life he was shifting back towards catholicism. I think his faith was always strong but also was taken into his torment in that he believed he was under attack from evil spirits. I never believed that and told him so, though I respected his own view on that. I read the scripture at his funeral - that was tough. I loved him very much and do think that those problems that arose from his illness were not his own fault.

I have also encountered psychopathy. It is terrifying. I talked with a man who had been sent to prison for burning down a house with people inside it. No one was hurt but he intended to kill them. He did it for money. And although he was bitter that the person who paid him had fled the couintry there was no remorse or feeling for the people he killed.

If you have not read it you might find a book by Scott Peck called 'People of the Lie: the hope for healing human evil' interesting. Some people think Samson was a psychopath if so it demonstrates that such people can be used by God.

[Misha]

This is a very interesting subject.
When a man is under heavy psychiatric medication his will power and thought's clarity is diminished.
Elder Paisios said that if the psychiatric patients believe to God and read the Ascetic Writings of st.Isaac the Syrian,then they will find their's life purpose and the psychiatric departments will empty.

PS.be aware of the recently published "new" writings of Isaac because they are not orthodox but reflect a monophysite view of the spiritual life.

[Rick James York]

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'Rick James York' is identical to members 'Rostislav' and 'John M.' The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.


This is a very interesting subject.
When a man is under heavy psychiatric medication his will power and thought's clarity is diminished.
Elder Paisios said that if the psychiatric patients believe to God and read the Ascetic Writings of st.Isaac the Syrian,then they will find their's life purpose and the psychiatric departments will empty.

PS.be aware of the recently published "new" writings of Isaac because they are not orthodox but reflect a monophysite view of the spiritual life.I had a friend who was an Orthodox novice but at one point in life he needed to get a job so he applied for positions in psychiatric hospitals for some reason I do not remember.

At one job interview when questioned about his morality, he stated that he was a seriously practicing Christian. The woman interviewing him looked at him sternly and said, "You are not planning to preach to the patients are you? We don't want any of that around here! It causes riots! Our more violent patients hate the Bible and preaching."

I sure would like to have something like you, Misha, just described above, to happen there. Imagine that. All the patients becoming sane like Legion (Mark 5:15) & (Luke 8:35), at the word of God!

In +, James

[Dave Ferguson]

When a man is under heavy psychiatric medication his will power and thought's clarity is diminished.
Elder Paisios said that if the psychiatric patients believe to God and read the Ascetic Writings of st.Isaac the Syrian,then they will find their's life purpose and the psychiatric departments will empty.
Or conversely full of very guilty feeling patients. If you think you have a new form of therapy here by all means let's get it tested, peer reviewed and prescribed. Oh but you can't because if it doesn't work you will say the patients must not really have believed enough. So it will be all their fault if they are still ill.

[Misha]

Dear Dave
this link may be helpful for you to understand somethings from what elder Paisios meant:
http://members.aol.com/timlebon/FranklLogotherapy.htm

[Owen Jones]

The problem with Frankl is that he mimics Christian therapy by becoming the patient's higher power, yet he refuses to admit that that is the key element in successful therapy. Finding meaning alone is not the answer. Finding a higher power is. Then the question becomes, what is the meaning and purpose of this higher power? And the search becomes the solution, as long as it is done in a disciplined manner.

All different schools of psychotherapy have some grain of truth, but all are flawed in the sense that the therapist becomes the higher power. One has to put one's mental health, and life, in the hands of the therapist for it to work. So it mimics the Christian path, but is like any mimic.

[Owen Jones]

Or conversely full of very guilty feeling patients. If you think you have a new form of therapy here by all means let's get it tested, peer reviewed and prescribed. Oh but you can't because if it doesn't work you will say the patients must not really have believed enough. So it will be all their fault if they are still ill.


This is a very interesting point that is being made. There are some obvious rejoinders: a) it's not as if Christianity is something new, some new form of therapy; b) never has Christianity claimed that it is for everyone, except in theory you might say; c) certainly no one should ever be forced or manipulated into it, free will being a central tenet of Christianity; d) our ecumenical councils and the compendium of writings -- Scriptural/Patristic -- are our version of getting it tested, peer reviewed and prescribed.

However, a more universal problem or issue pertains, it seems to me. First of all, mental illness is a matter of degree, and while the extreme cases are obvious, the problem is that we are all mentally ill to some degree, by virtue of our fallen, disordered state of existence. The second problem is that, while the modern treatment of mental illness is reductive: either the psyche is treated as an independent entity, or everything is deemed to be organic. Whereas in Christianity, the person is a totality, and one cannot separate out the individual parts, because they have no separate, independent existence. They only exist as part of a totality. So the claim, for example, that any mental illness can be treated just as an organic problem is false in principle. And I would argue that this pertains even to cases in which there is obvious, identifiable brain disease that is genetic in origin, or the result of some damage due to extrinsic causes, i.e. taking hallucinogenic drugs or some traumatic physical injury. Because even in these obvious cases, some spiritual discipline is called for.

But back to the point, if the spiritual treatment is not successful, is it should therefore to be assumed that it is the fault of the patient, not the treatment. One problem with this assumption is -- are other alternatives judged by the same standard? That is, are we judging spiritual therapy by the same standards that we judge conventional psychotherapy or drug therapy? Do these approaches really have objective protocols and standards of measurement? Or are the methods and results, shall we say, rather subjective at best?

So, there are numerous problems with what we mean by mental illness, how people define the person, how people define the mind/body complex, many different schools of thought, along with a general prejudice that Christian "treatment" results are all anecdotal, whereas secular forms of treatment are objectively quantifiable and have, indeed, been quantified.

Regarding pharmacological treatment for depression, there is no evidence that it is effective any more than a placebo. Regarding pschotherapy, the progress is largely a function of forming a relationship with an empathetic person. Any other results are marginal at best. Regarding the obvious extreme cases of schizophrenia that are clearly genetic in origin, or the result of some brain trauma, the likelihood of spiritual therapy making a major breakthrough is slight, and yet marginal impact on such people often has a dramatic impact on the margins. In any case, these cases are the extreme minority of mental illness cases.

Virtually all mental illness stems from an inability to accept suffering. Some people suffer in the extreme and bounce back, and with another type of person, let's say a "self-made" man driving a masorati, if you took away all of his stuff and planted him in Bangladesh, he would likely become suicidal pretty quickly.

[Dave Ferguson]

Thanks for that Mr. Jones. Schizophrenics may be a minority but they are a large one and I just got upset at the idea of someone giving simplistic solutions to a very complex problem. I think spiritual support is probably helpful to a schizophrenic but often the best we can do is not to offer a cure but offer ourselves; to listen and to share in people's lives. People with psychoses are often warm, loving, caring people who are mocked by mainstream society just because they are different. Even in the small town I live in you might be astonished at how many homeless teenagers had ended up spending a night on the floor in someone's sheltered housing.

[Owen Jones]

Why would I be astonished?

The fact that there are even such a thing as homeless teenagers in England or the U.S. is the result of family problems and negative societal influences, and not because of congenital mental illness. The kind of psychosis that one sees in such young people is the result of abuse, mostly being born into drug addicted families, combined with drug addiction at a young age. There is no treatment for this other than the spiritual. But what is true for mental illness is the same as for all disease -- an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Trying to intervene at the least minute with a person who is wrecked, body mind and spirit, is extremely difficult. Though it can be done.

If the Church were really set up as a hospital for the cure of souls, rather than just as a religious institution, we might have something significant to offer such lost souls. The idea that just by sending people to Church they are going to be cured of their mental/emotional/moral/spiritual ailments is, of course, absurd. Our entire witness from the saints agrees that constant vigilance and discipline is required of every person.

The Gospel is hardly a simplistic solution. It is the only solution that takes into account the full complexity of the human personality.