Will there be animals in the afterlife?

[Justin Farr]

Will animals be in the afterlife?

Feel free to explain your answer! ^_^

Thanks!

[Herman Blaydoe]

"In comparing the soul of man with that of animals, St. Gregory [Palamas] says that animals possess a soul not as essence, but as an energy. 'The soul of each of the irrational animals is the life for the body it animates, and so animals possess life not essentially, but as an energy, since this life is dependent on something else and is not self-subsistent.' Therefore since the soul of animals has only energy, it dies with the body. By contrast, the soul of man has not only energy but also essence: 'The soul possesses life not only as an activity, but also essentially, since it lives in its own right... For that reason, when the body passes away, the soul does not perish with it.' It remains immortal [by God's Grace].' [St Gregory Palamas 150 Chapters, ch 38]." Taken from Orthodox Psychotherapy by Metropolitan Hierotheos (Vlachos), page 105.

[Angela V.]

I think that there is a special place that good animals go to. For example the Labrodors that guide the blind people or a dog that wakes up his master to let him know that there is a fire and he needs to go out. etc.

So, I do believe there is a special place, but only God knows.

Angela

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

Just a note to say that I've removed the poll from this thread. Polls are meant only to be very occasional items in the forum, employed when there is an exceptional need for them (in the past seven years, until the recent two months, we've only had two!). It is always better to initiate discussions without a poll, so that more robust discussion follows.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Andreas Moran]

I don't know about the theology of this or what authorities say, but God made animals for this earth and saw that it was good. And we are told there will be a new heaven and a new earth. So if there's to be a new earth, why not with animals if they were 'good' first time round? Mind you, if God misses out snakes, I'll be pleased! Though if they're nice, maybe I could accept them. I have a terrible phobia about them.

I've often wondered - why a new heaven? - what's wrong with the current arrangements up there? Is the present heaven a temporary condition?

[Herman Blaydoe]

I don't know about the theology of this or what authorities say, but God made animals for this earth and saw that it was good. And we are told there will be a new heaven and a new earth. So if there's to be a new earth, why not with animals if they were 'good' first time round? Mind you, if God misses out snakes, I'll be pleased! Though if they're nice, maybe I could accept them. I have a terrible phobia about them.

I've often wondered - why a new heaven? - what's wrong with the current arrangements up there? Is the present heaven a temporary condition?

If the heavens were created, and creation is fallen, a new heaven and a new earth in the new creation might indeed be in order, at least so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

[Nina]

We will be so full of delight in the presence of our God and we will miss nothing. Have you ever thought of people who love other people and who will not be in the same place, in Heaven? If God will help such love, if there will be no animals in the new world, He will also help people missing their animals.

[Andreas Moran]

If the heavens were created, and creation is fallen, a new heaven and a new earth in the new creation might indeed be in order, at least so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

What is that you say, Pooh? Heaven is in a state of fallenness? Why? Wherefore? Oh, dear, I might have known. Oh, dear.

Eeyore.

[John W.]

I think that there is a special place that good animals go to. For example the Labrodors that guide the blind people or a dog that wakes up his master to let him know that there is a fire and he needs to go out. etc.

So, I do believe there is a special place, but only God knows.



Gerasimos had his Lion. Sts. Sergius and Seraphim had their bears. I have Billy the Kitten. He wakes me up every morning between 5:30 and 6 and perches on my shoulders during prayers.

He's a true Orthodox Catlick. Since he's so young, maybe he's more like a catechumen.

[John W.]

On a serious note:

"Fr. Nektary [St. Nektary of Optina] had a cat with which he played. He tied a piece of paper with a string for it. The cat obeyed him like a human being. The Elder said, 'Gerasimos was a great elder, and he had a great lion; but we're small so we have a cat.' And he would tell a story how a cat saved Noah's ark. When an unclean spirit entered into a mouse and tried to gnaw through the bottom of the ark, the cat caught that pernicious mouse and ate it. And for this all cats go to heaven."

All of which begs the question, "Is Cat Heaven the same place as Mouse Hell?"

[Olga]

Another consideration is the centuries-old tradition which states that the cat is the only animal permitted within an Orthodox church, including in the altar area (though I hope that, these days, seeing-eye dogs would also be permitted). I recall coming across a synod-level ruling which stated this, so it appears not to be simply a folk custom.

[John W.]

"About a hundred years ago, said the monk - but like all good Athonites time meant little to him - the mountain suffered from a constant plague of snakes. Cats were needed to deal with them. But they had to be tom-cats; and the supply was always having to be renewed, and the cat-merchants of the mainland kept raising the price higher and higher till the monasteries could no longer afford to buy any more. The Holy Synod met and decided to dedicate an evening of prayer to the Mother of God to ask for her assistance. This was done; and a few mornings later it was found that all the tom-cats on the Mountain had given birth to kittens. Great was the rejoicing until it was revealed that half of these kittens were female. What was to be done about them? The holy Synod met hastily again. Some monks maintained that they females must be drowned at once. Others suggested that they might be sold; as miraculously born kittens they would fetch a high price. But the oldest and the wisest of the monks pointed out that it was the Mother of God herself who had provided them. She therefore could have no objection to them. Besides, if the monasteries got rid of them the same crisis would arise again in a few years time; and the Mother of God might not be willing to perform the miracle twice. So we permit she-cats, said the monk."

See:

Mount Athos
Perceptions of the Holy Mountain
http://www.mountathos.co.uk/perceptions.html

[Olga]

The fourth-century monastery of St Nicholas of the Cats has an interesting history as well.

[Nina]

For all those with Ophidiophobia, there is a phenomenon in Kefalonia when in August 15 there are snakes with the sign of the cross on their forehead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvSsOxZfWvk) coming out near a church/monastery(?). I have heard these were nuns and because of a miracle that happened (they were saved somehow) the phenomenon continues for people to remember. These snakes are not harmful. But from this story and other ones with lions, bears etc. we can see how God (and therefore) loves every creature He made.

[Justin Farr]

What makes cats more special that they are the only ones permitted in a church??

I also can't believe monks would have thought about drowning baby kittens just for being females. Goodness... *sadness*

Interesting about the snakes.

This is proving to be a very informative thread for me. :D

[Olga]

Justin, I would love to find the Russian synod ruling on cats and churches. But I can provide a couple of charming folk tales on the Orthodox and their respect for cats:

1. How tabbies got the letter M on their foreheads: Newborn baby Jesus was crying, and continued to cry despite His mother's best efforts to soothe him. The other animals around all tried to help, to no avail. Only the purring of a cat could soothe the Child, and, in gratitude, the Mother of God blessed the cat, and marked the cat with her sign (M for Mary).

2. In a church one day, there appeared a small reptile (either a snake or lizard), which entered the altar, and climbed onto the Holy Table itself, heading for the chalice. Before the priest was aware of what was going on, a sharp-eyed cat spotted the intruder, jumped up onto the altar, and swatted away the critter before it desecrated the communion cup.

It is impossible to regard these stories are factual, yet they well illustrate the longstanding respect that cats have had in the Orthodox world.

Another lovely story is the markings on donkeys: Donkeys have a distinct dark-brown or black stripe running down their backs, with a transverse marking down their shoulders, making a cross. Legend has it that Christ blessed the donkey which carried Him into Jerusalem by marking him with a cross.

[Nina]

My grandmother also said that the sheep was blessed by Panagia because she gave her wool for baby Jesus to stay warm. And provided yummy dairy for them.

In Koran (I think but maybe I confuse it with another book) it says that Panagia blessed dates and the palms (for the shade) while they traveled.

Donkey was also blessed because it is humble.

[Effie Ganatsios]

From Elder Paisios' Epistles.

"As long as Adam loved God and observed His commandment, he dwelt in the Paradise of God and God
abode in the ... heart of Adam. Naked Adam was clothed with the Grace of God and, surrounded by all the animals, he held and caressed them lovingly, and they, in turn, licked him devoutly, as their master. Gen.2 : 18-20.

When Adam violated God's commandment, he was stripped of the Grace of God, clothed with a garment of skin and exiled from Paradise. Grace-filled Adam became wild, and many animals, because of Adam, were also made savage, and instead of approaching him with love, lashed out at him with rage...."

Animals were once with Adam in paradise, so why would they be excluded from paradise in the future?

Effie