Religious motivations for going vegetarian

[Michael Astley]

Hello.

I am trying to increasingly follow elements of the Benedictine rule in my own life, under the direction of one of our Benedictine monasteries. One point of the rule is that monastics living thereby are not to eat the meat of four-legged animals. This, of course, still permits fish and poultry (except on days of abstinence).

Now I am no monk but still have been considering adopting this discipline for my own well-being. I will, of course, seek direction from my spiritual father before any such undertaking but, having recently encountered a fellow Orthodox Christian who used to be a meat-eater and is now vegetarian, (though not for religious reasons), I would also like to hear from those who have made the transition from breakfasts of bacon barms to something simpler. What was your motivation? If religious, was it accompanied by other special spiritual disciplines, such as particular prayers for the calming of the passions? Did you gradually wean yourself off meat or did you just take the decision one day and that was that? Were you under spiritual guidance or did you just do it of your own volition? Was it something that you did alone or as part of a community/household/group of friends?

I'm sorry for the forty questions but I would very much appreciate the experiential wisdom of others before giving more thought to this.

Thank you.

In Christ,
Michael

[Mary]

Hello.

I am trying to increasingly follow elements of the Benedictine rule in my own life, under the direction of one of our Benedictine monasteries. One point of the rule is that monastics living thereby are not to eat the meat of four-legged animals. This, of course, still permits fish and poultry (except on days of abstinence).

Forgive me for asking, but a doubt just popped into my head. The Benedictines aren't Orthodox, are they?

Mary

[Nina]

I am so puzzled too since I have never heard such thing before. Please enlighten us.

???
O

[Silouan Howard]

I have been making a transition to being increasingly vegetarian. I only eat meat if it is 1) given to me in hospitality or 2) the only thing on the menu as I do live in Texas, the land of carnivores. You asked for those who have made the transition or are making the transition to discuss their experience, but could you be more specific about what you would like to hear about from our experience..because I could talk all day and probably never address your question. :)

[Mary]

I would also like to hear from those who have made the transition from breakfasts of bacon barms to something simpler. What was your motivation? If religious, was it accompanied by other special spiritual disciplines, such as particular prayers for the calming of the passions? Did you gradually wean yourself off meat or did you just take the decision one day and that was that? Were you under spiritual guidance or did you just do it of your own volition? Was it something that you did alone or as part of a community/household/group of friends?

I'm sorry for the forty questions but I would very much appreciate the experiential wisdom of others before giving more thought to this.

Thank you.

In Christ,
Michael


In answer to your 'forty questions' - I never considered anything other than meat to be merited as food... I never fasted till I became orthodox. Actually, I did for a few months prior to that, while I was experimenting with Orthodoxy.

Anyways, I just counted up the days of our regular fasts - Great Lent, Nativity fast, Dormition fast, Apostles fast and all the Wednesdays and Fridays and we have 178 days of fasting this year, and 188 days of anything we want to eat. I think that's a perfect balance, that will affect me health positively, even though the primary purpose of the fasts isn't physical health.

On the 188 non-fasting days, we do not eat meat everyday. I've been trying to reduce the amount of meat we eat. We have more chicken and fish than anything else. Used to do a lot of beef, but that's down a lot and it's usually ground beef for hamburgers and such. Pork is even rarer than that.

And, I've noticed that I don't miss meat as much as I thought I would, and I actually start feeling sick if I don't have enough veggies every day.

I read somewhere that your taste buds actually die and get replaced at a regular pace. So, in about 3 months, you can gradually root out all the old taste buds and replace them completely. Of course, they don't all die at the same time, which is why you need at least 3 months to completely retrain your mouth.

Some months ago, I decided I'd cut out extra sugar from my beverages, so I stopped adding sugar to my coffee and tea. I thought of subsitituting it with the fake stuff, and decided not to. This doesn't always happen, but I just went cold turkey, and actually succeeded. I do still like sweet things, and haven't killed my sweet taste buds. I just get my sweet from fruits and jams and loaded desserts... mmmmmmm.... brownies!

The reason I still eat sugar in other forms is because sweet desserts are rare in our house, but sugar in my tea and coffee would've been several times a day.

I don't know if I answered any of your questions, or just blabbed like I normally do.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Forgive me for asking, but a doubt just popped into my head. The Benedictines aren't Orthodox, are they?

Mary

No but St. Benedict is pre-schism, so HE is Orthodox and his rules for monastics are not "unorthodox" in any sense of the word.

[Justin Farr]

What was your motivation?
The environment and ridiculously disgusting and unChristian treatment of the animals.


If religious, was it accompanied by other special spiritual disciplines, such as particular prayers for the calming of the passions?
Red meat inflames the passions, if you did not know. But I didn't really go for religious reasons... I do not consider monks vegetarians because of their somewhat frequent consumption of fish and crustaceans and such. If anything, I think Orthodoxy prohibits my going total vegan.


Did you gradually wean yourself off meat or did you just take the decision one day and that was that?
Gradually wean myself. I suggest Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays - traditional Orthodox fasting days (Mondays in monasteries) then I went full time.


Were you under spiritual guidance or did you just do it of your own volition?
Not at the time, no. But since my spiritual father has encouraged it.


Was it something that you did alone or as part of a community/household/group of friends?
On my own. My family made fun of me and was opposed, but generally didn't tempt me too much and sometimes would buy veg things for me. I usually cooked on my own.

My answers in bold. :)


INXC,
Justin

[Nina]

My answers in bold. :)

I suggest Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays - traditional Orthodox (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Orthodox) fasting (http://monachos.net/library/Orthodox_Dictionary#Fast) days (Mondays in monasteries) then I went full time.
INXC,
Justin

Good job Justin.

Monday is actually recommended for us laity also I have read. If we can do it. It is in honor of the angels I think. But I do not keep Monday's fast because I am weak (in soul).

[Mourad Mankarios]

Hi Michael,

I hope you would keep in mind with your noble pursuit that while meat may inflame the passions and abstaining from the such may be helpful both physically and spiritually, perhaps even more importantly it is the gluttonous consumption of any type of food that is cautioned against in the ascetic spiritual life.

Therefore, the serious ascetic controls not only what they eat but also the amount they eat and never eats to satiety.

[Michael Astley]

Thank you, all, for your responses.

Firstly, to answer your questions, Mary and Nina, I think that Herman has it. St Benedict and the early Benedictines were Orthodox, and his rule for monastics is Orthodox in origin. We had a brief discussion about it on another thread where I posted this (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=55979&postcount=4), and there is also this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Benedict_(Orthodox)) brief article with its external links which you may find interesting. There are certainly Orthodox Benedictines once again - we are small in number, but we exist.

To move on to your responses, I'm very grateful that so many of you have been so forthcoming within such a short space of time. It's good to know that people are willing to help.

Silouan, I'm really happy to hear about anything that you have found interesting, good, or difficult about making the transition - the temptations, how you have resisted them, the spiritual and physical health benefits that you have experienced or that you expected to experience but that did not manifest themselves: really whatever you feel is worth sharing. Thank you.

Mary, thank you for sharing. Your blabbing, (if that is indeed what it was), is very much appreciated and I can certainly relate to what you say. As somebody who also loves meat and who struggles with his weight and has changed diet numerous times with varying degrees of success, I can very much understand what you say about tastebuds being replaced and tastes changing over an extended period of eating certain types of food. I suppose patience and prayer are essential to any dietary discipline for many of the same reasons - not that I'm equating spiritual discipline with weight loss, of course, but there are some parallels as far as the practicalities are concerned.

Justin, your direct answers to the questions I asked have been very helpful indeed, especially the part about the initial lack of support from those closest to you. Most of my friends consider my Orthodoxy to be a bit strange but they are usually very tolerant and understanding, and even express an interest sometimes, giving me the opportunity to answer their questions. I think they appreciate the willingness to share without the forcefulness of constant confrontation, so we'll see how a change of diet works. Thank you, as well, for the suggestion about doing it gradually. That seems to make the most sense to me, as it is that way with much that we undertake in the Faith. From my own experience, I find that if I do too much too soon, I give up altogether, which is very far from the original intention.

Mourad, your advice really puts the rest of it into perspective. I couldn't agree more. Of course, agreement doesn't necessarily make the temptations go away, but there we are.

Thank you again, all of you, and I look forward to hearing more.

In Christ,
Michael

[Nina]

Wow. I did not know this. I knew about St. Benedict, but I thought there might be others. Thank you Michael for your explanation and of course Herman. Now I am not clear and sorry if I am so inquisitive but since this is new for me I got to ask. Are we all in communion? Where can you receive Holy Communion? Can you receive Holy Communion in Mount Athos?

[Effie Ganatsios]

The Rule of St. Benedict was inspired by the Rule of St. Basil and by the writings of St. John Cassian.

"St Benedict of Nursia, living in the seventh century in the West, founded a monastic establishment that was to grow mightily and have a tremendous and lasting impact on monastic life in Europe as a whole.

He wrote down his Rule "for beginners" and, at the end of it, recommended that his disciples read St Basil's Asceticon and the Conferences of the Scythian St. John Cassian.

His Rule is so simple to follow that both monastics and laity may observe it and spiritually grow from it.

He lays down rules and regulations for life in common and for prayer and work. He enjoins his disciples to make sure they pray through the Psalter once in the week. He commands that they be hospitable and otherwise radiate the Spirit of Christ to the world.

His simple rule concerning prayer, reading and work caught on like "wild-fire." There was even a group of Western Orthodox Benedictine Monks on Mt. Athos, the "Amalfion" whose ruins can still be seen to this day. There are today Benedictine Monks within Orthodoxy as well."



You can read about St. Benedict's life here : http://www.roca.org/OA/5/5k.htm

[Michael Astley]

Thank you, Effie, for a most excellent summary, and for the link to that page that I hadn't previously seen. I shall explore that later.

Nina, you mustn't apologise for asking questions. If that were the case, I'd be sending out "IOU an apology" cards for years to come. I'm just glad that we have a place like this where we can share each other's experiences of our life in Orthodoxy.

I must stress that I am a layman, ordained to no order within the Church and under no monastic vows. I live in Britain, where the only Orthodox churches are currently of the Byzantine Rite, and I am very happily ensconced in a loving and wonderful parish of the Russian Church Abroad. However, I have an attachment to one of our monasteries (http://www.christminster.org/) which follows the rule of St Benedict and, at home, I pray the hours according to the Benedictine Rule, (although in an curtailed form), and follow the Benedictine fasting rule (in my not very good way) according to the calendar under the direction of the monastery. I also try to adopt the principles of St Benedict's Rule more widely in my own life for my salvation. For these reasons, I consider myself to be Benedictine at heart, while my parish is of the Byzantine Rite. I am not an Oblate of the monastery but who knows what may happen in the future if God wills it? For now, as an Orthodox Christian living in the West, I feel a great affinity to St Benedict and love that we once again have this tradition of the Orthodox Church available to us.

Recent times in the Church have seen a great deal of uniformity of rites, which is good in some ways but has also served to give many of us a slightly skewed view of the Church, because this was not always the case. The recent restoration of the Jerusalem Liturgy of St James (quite different from the Byzantine Liturgies of St John Chrysostom and St Basil), on the Sunday after Christmas and the Feast of St James has gone some way to alleviate this, and ROCOR has recently blessed a new translation of the Liturgy of St Mark for use in its churches. I hope that these begin to be more widely served.

Traditionally, the Church had different rites and different uses (local variations) within those rites. For example, see the differences between Greek and Russian uses in the Byzantine Rite that most of us follow. The same sort of thing existed in parts of the West. Similarly, there were different monastic rules in existence in different monasteries and different parts of the world. Today, most Orthodox monks and nuns are Basilian, that is, they follow the Rule of St Basil. However, there were (and again, are) those who follow the Rule of St Benedict. The thing to remember is that all of the Orthodox Christians of these different rites, uses, and monastic rules, all held to the same Faith and were all in full communion with each other. There is nothing to prevent our clergy concelebrating with each other, or us lay men and women participating fully in the sacramental life of each other's churches.

This is one of the things that I have come to love about the Orthodox Church and is one of the reasons that I became Orthodox: in my former home, there have been many squabbles over the past 500 years, and almost all of these can be detected by looking at the liturgies as they developed. Each theological disagreement brought with it a revisions in the services which reflected this doctrinal change. Different parishes will do different types of service according to their different doctrinal beliefs. However, in the Orthodox Church, we have various rites, vestments, fasting rules, and monastic rules which all express the same Faith, and are nourished by the same Tradition, in turn nourishing the faith of those who follow them, ut in homnibus glorificetur Deus, ("that in all things God may be glorified" - a precept of the Benedictine rule).

In Christ,
Michael

[Mary]

Good job Justin.

Monday is actually recommended for us laity also I have read. If we can do it. It is in honor of the angels I think. But I do not keep Monday's fast because I am weak (in soul).


Never heard of this Monday fast! Must be my priest didn't tell me about it because he knows my weakness about obssessing with fasts!

[Nina]

Never heard of this Monday fast! Must be my priest didn't tell me about it because he knows my weakness about obssessing with fasts!

:D Yeah because you will go vegan after that! But if you see all days of the week to WHOM those are dedicated in Orthodoxy, you would never eat in honor of One or Another. One of the days is dedicated to your Father ;).

I can't do it though... :( I can't go vegan, or vegetarian unless it is Fasting time. By the way, does anyone know any tips for avoiding oil during fasting days? It is very difficult for me to eat oil-less... I do not know how raw vegan people live! I know how monastics of this kind live though.

Michael, so you are an Orthodox, and not an Unite (or as they say here I think, Byzantine Catholic)? I do not understand very well :( ... sorry.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Never heard of this Monday fast! Must be my priest didn't tell me about it because he knows my weakness about obssessing with fasts!

The Monday fast is often kept in monasteries in honour of the Angels (Monday on the weekday Calendar- ie the Ochtoechos is dedicated to the Bodiless Powers).

You will notice though how during the 'lesser' fasts, for example during Nativity Fast, Monday is normally a strict fast day along with Wednesday & Friday. Tuesdays & Thursdays however are wine & oil.

Thus during these lesser fasts we all follow the same regime as in monasteries.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Michael Astley]

Michael, so you are an Orthodox, and not an Unite (or as they say here I think, Byzantine Catholic)? I do not understand very well :( ... sorry.

That's right, Nina. I am Orthodox. I am not Catholic. My parish is under Archbiship Mark of Berlin, Germany and Great Britain of ROCOR (http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/indexeng.htm) - the same Synod of Bishops as Fr Raphael and Fr David who regularly post here at monachos.net. The monastery is under Bishop Gabriel of Manhattan of the same synod.

The difference that I am talking about here is not about synod but about rite. A rite is a collection of liturgical and spiritual traditions and disciplines which form a unit. Different rites have existed and still exist in the Orthodox Church. Elements peculiar to various rites include the texts, rubrics, and rituals of services; styles, colours, and arrangement of vestments; musical traditions; fasting disciplines; prayer disciplines; liturgical kalendars; arrangement of services, and so forth. Throughout the history of the Orthodox Church, different rites existed alongside each other, usually tied to particular parts of the world. For example, in the first millennium Orthodox Church, in France there was the Gallican Rite; in Spain there was the Mozarabic Rite; in Turkey, Greece, and parts of the Mediterranean was the Byzantine Rite; in Italy there were the Roman Rite and the Ambrosian Rite; and there were many others including Antiochene Rites (to which, I think, the Jerusalem Liturgy of St James, once again celebrated in Orthodox churches, belonged) - but the people who belonged to these different rites were all Orthodox, shared the same Faith, and were in full communion with each other. Similarly, there were different monastic rules, such as that of St Basil (predominantly followed in the East) and that of St Benedict (predominantly followed in the West). Benedicties usually belonged to the Roman or one of the other Western Rites.

The schism of the Patriarchate of Rome in the 11th century meant that many of these rites were lost to the Orthodox Church because the people in the parts of the world where they were used ceased to be Orthodox. Similarly, the Benedictine monastic tradition, which had long sustained much of the Orthodox Faith in this part of the world, was largely lost to Orthodoxy because of the schism when most of them became Catholic. To this day, most people who know about Christianity hear "Benedictine" and automatically think "Catholic", which is quite inaccurate. Other schisms had similar effects, (such as our non-Chalcedonian friends who have their own rites). Because of these, and various other events in history, by far the vast majority of people in the Orthodox Church today belong to the Byzantine Rite, which developed in Constantinople and surrounding areas, and eventually spread through evangelism from that poart of the world. The Byzantine Rite has such liturgies as those of St Basil and St John Chrysostom, with which you will be familiar.

This has led to the idea in the minds of many, (Orthodox and non-Orthodox alike), that the Byzantine Rite Rite is the only one that exists in Orthodoxy, and that the Basilian Rule is the only monastic rule that is followed in the Orthodox Church, that these traditions have existed since the beginning, and that anything else is foreign to that tradition and somehow not Orthodox, (I am not accusing you of this, of course, but I have come across such a view). For example I often hear my non-Orthodox friends say things like, 'Orthodox monks wear those funny hats, don't they?' To which I respond that Basilian monks wear the klobuk because that is a part of the Basilian monks' habit but Benedictines do not because it isn't a part of the Benedictine habit.

My parish belongs to the Byzantine Rite but, according to the custom of the Russian church, on the Feast of St James and on the Sunday after Christmas, we serve the Liturgy of St James, which does not come from the Byzantine Rite. We served this Liturgy a few weeks back and it was very beautiful to make Eucharist in such a different way. The common elements of the Divine Liturgy were there but it was very interesting to see how they had developed differently in different parts of the world, while expressing and nourishing the same Faith in Orthodox people. It certainly goes to show just how much of what we do Sunday by Sunday is actually the result of later additions over the centuries in a particular part of the world, by different influences. For example, the ceremonial of the St James Liturgy is much simpler than that of the St Chrysostom Liturgy but the St James Liturgy has many more prayers for those persecuted Christians, those in exile and hiding "in the pits of the earth". These prayers date from a time when Christians were still persecuted by the Romans, while their absence from the Byzantine St Chrysostom Liturgy is probably due to the fact that it developed after Christianity had been accepted as the official religion of the Roman Empire and the persecutions had stopped. I find all of these differences very beautiful, but some people do insist that liturgical uniformity is the only way to be Orthodox -(this attitude is mainly found among certain western converts, in my experience).

Personally, I love the fact that God, in his grace and mercy, calls all of us into union with the life of the Trinity, and has enabled this through various rites, and that the Church, as a loving mother to her children, has begun to restore many elements of them for the sake of the salvation of God's people. The Liturgy of St James has been restored to use since the late 19th century, the Liturgy of St Mark was blessed for use again either last year or in 2006 (I forget which), the Roman Rite (with the Mass of St Gregory the Great) is once again used by some Orthodox monasteries and parishes, and once again we have Benedictine monks, yet we are all one in the communion of the Orthodox Faith, under one mother, the Church, working out our salvation together. I love Orthodoxy.

[Michael Astley]

I'm sorry, I should add, in order to bring this back on topic, that the point of this thread is that, by the fasting rule of the Roman Rite (to which the Benedictine tradition belongs), fasting is defined as taking no food except water, and abstinence is defined as eating no fish, meat, or poultry, or soups & sauces made from them. On all Wednesdays and Fridays, (except when relaxed), fasting is practised until the hour of None (the ninth hour - 3p.m.) after which abstinence is practised. This is the rule by which I try to live. In addition, St Benedict, in his rule for monks, adds:


Except the sick who are very weak, let all abstain entirely from eating the flesh of four-footed animals.
The Holy Rule, chapter 39

It is this monastic discipline that I am considering adopting and thoughts on which I am grateful to you all for sharing.

Pax,
Michael

[Mary]

.....I love Orthodoxy.

Michael,

What a beautiful post!!! And what a great blessing that all those other liturgies - of St James & St Mark - haven't been lost!!! I thought they were, and now I feel like some long lost treasure has been found again. =)

I remember reading about them briefly, many long years ago, when I as new to orthodoxy, and noticed how these liturgies originated in different geographic areas, and I remember, for a brief moment, I wanted to know more about them, and in what way they were similar to the liturgies of St John C. and St Basil, and in what ways they were different. But then, I never thought I'd encounter them, so it sort of dropped out of my mind. But now, you've given me new hope, there's a chance I might hear them! All I have to do is gather enough money to travel across the ocean and visit your parish...


:D Yeah because you will go vegan after that! But if you see all days of the week to WHOM those are dedicated in Orthodoxy, you would never eat in honor of One or Another. One of the days is dedicated to your Father ;).

I can't do it though... :( I can't go vegan, or vegetarian unless it is Fasting time. By the way, does anyone know any tips for avoiding oil during fasting days? It is very difficult for me to eat oil-less... I do not know how raw vegan people live! I know how monastics of this kind live though.

Yes, indeed, I was quite obssessive about those strict fast days on the days honoring my favorite saint. Good thing he's not commemorated every day of the year! And good thing, I haven't fallen in love with every single saint who is remembered every single day!! =)

As for oil-less cooking... I tried one yesterday, that was so good, that I'm going to just keep eating the left overs today, even though it's not fasting today - and also because there's a huge pot of it!! =) Perhaps we can re-visit that recipe thread we started last year during Great Lent....

Mary

[Mary]

I'm sorry, I should add, in order to bring this back on topic, that the point of this thread is that, by the fasting rule of the Roman Rite (to which the Benedictine tradition belongs), fasting is defined as taking no food except water, and abstinence is defined as eating no fish, meat, or poultry, or soups & sauces made from them. On all Wednesdays and Fridays, (except when relaxed), fasting is practised until the hour of None (the ninth hour - 3p.m.) after which abstinence is practised. This is the rule by which I try to live.

That sounds like the way 'Strict Fast' was described to me. Except on the first 3 days of Great Lent and the last 3 days Before Pascha, when the Strict fast gets even stricter.

Mary

[Nina]

That's right, Nina. I am Orthodox. I am not Catholic. My parish is under Archbiship Mark of Berlin, Germany and Great Britain of ROCOR (http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/indexeng.htm) - the same Synod of Bishops as Fr Raphael and Fr David who regularly post here at monachos.net. The monastery is under Bishop Gabriel of Manhattan of the same synod.


Ok. That's cool. As long as you are like Fr. Raphael and Fr. David, that is enough. :) I get confused often. I hope I did not upset you with my questions.

[Michael Astley]

Michael,

What a beautiful post!!! And what a great blessing that all those other liturgies - of St James & St Mark - haven't been lost!!! I thought they were, and now I feel like some long lost treasure has been found again. =)

I remember reading about them briefly, many long years ago, when I as new to orthodoxy, and noticed how these liturgies originated in different geographic areas, and I remember, for a brief moment, I wanted to know more about them, and in what way they were similar to the liturgies of St John C. and St Basil, and in what ways they were different. But then, I never thought I'd encounter them, so it sort of dropped out of my mind. But now, you've given me new hope, there's a chance I might hear them! All I have to do is gather enough money to travel across the ocean and visit your parish...

And, of course, you would be made very, very welcome.

However, you may not need to travel quite so far. There are places on your side of the pond that serve these liturgies. Perhaps mention it to your priest. If he doesn't do it himself, he may know of somewhere not very far away that does. I think it does all of us a great deal of good to see some of the different expressions of our common Faith. Personally, I think of all the Saints who have been fed and nourished through the centuries by these services and prayer & fasting disciplines. I consider it a blessing that my priest was trained how to serve the St James Liturgy, otherwise I may never have experienced it.

Did you know, Mary, that the St James Liturgy remained in continuous use in Jerusalem and on the island of Zakynthos? I only learnt this last month. Apparently, in the 19th century, the Holy Synod of Russia sent a commission to both places to learn from the clergy there exactly how to serve that Liturgy. They translated it into Slavonic with its rubrics, and it was translated into English in the 1970s, although this is now out of print. I have a photocopy and have ideas in mind for making it readily available again. Archimandrite Ephrem (Lash) here in Manchester has a version online that comes from an academic translation but it apears to be heavily altered to resemble the Byzantine liturgies. The differences from the version actually used in Jerusalem and Zakynthos really are quite striking. Still, here (http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ephrem/lit-james.htm) it is if you'd like to get an idea of the flavour of it.


Ok. That's cool. As long as you are like Fr. Raphael and Fr. David, that is enough. :) I get confused often. I hope I did not upset you with my questions.

Upset? Goodness, no! I have some Asperger tendencies, which means, (among other things), that I often waffle on at length about things that are of particular interest to me but nobody else, without realising that other people's eyes have glazed over with boredom, so I am delighted to be able to answer questions from people who are genuinely interested, and to learn from them as well. Still, I'm not sure how the good fathers would feel about my being described as being like them. :-D

I think that I'll seek a blessing to start with Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, as suggested earlier, and then move from there in time. Thank you, all.

In Christ,
Michael

[Effie Ganatsios]

QUOTE=Mary;58617]Michael,

What a beautiful post!!! And what a great blessing that all those other liturgies - of St James & St Mark - haven't been lost!!! I thought they were, and now I feel like some long lost treasure has been found again. =)


Mary[/QUOTE]

First of all, Mary, could you please post your oil-less recipe...

The following is from my little book The Divine Liturgy explained.

"The oldest liturgy to be written is the liturgy of Saint James (Iacovos - Jacob) the brother of our Lord and first Bishop of Jerusalem. This liturgy is today celebrated in the Church of Jerusalem on the feast day of Saint James, October 23rd.

The second ancient liturgy is that of Saint Mark, the Evangelist, who founded the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, and became its first bishop. This liturgy is celebrated in Alexandria on his feast day, April 25th.

The third liturgy is that of Saint Basil the Great, dating from the 4th century. This liturgy is an arrangement of the liturgy of St. James and is celebrated ten times a year; the feast day of St. Basil (January 1st); the first five Sundays of Lent; Thursday and Saturday of Holy Week; the vigils of Christmas and Epiphany.

The fourth liturgy is that of Saint John Chrysostom, dating from the fifth century. This liturgy is mostly an abridgement of the inaudible prayers found in St. Basil's liturgy. The liturgy of St. John Chrysostom became the prevailing liturgy in all the Orthodox Churches. it is celebrated every Sunday and every holiday of the year, except the days, when one of the other liturgies is celebrated.

There is a traditional feeling in the Orthodox Church that the joyousness of the last two liturgies is not altogether suitable to the penitential season of the Great Lent. For this reason a fifth liturgy, that of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts, is used during Lent, except on Saturdays and Sundays and on March 25th. This liturgy is not a complete liturgy, but rather a vespers, in which Holy Communion, kept from a preceding liturgy, is administered.

As the purpose of all these liturgies is to celebrate the Holy Eucharist, they can be understood in a particular sense as forming just one liturgy."

[Peter S.]

I have a non-christian friend who is vegan, he was a vegetarian before. And ate meat when I met him. Sometimes I also want to be a vegetarian. I have sometimes bad conscience about eating meat, or at least get a bad feeling about it. "Poor fish, why shall we eat our friends? ", I ve heard from another I know well, (but he eats fish and poultry, though)

I think meat is too tasty to stop eating it, rigth now, but I know there are good and similar alternatives. And then there is the social part of not eating the same as most people.

I ve heard a story of a man that was very ill, but then he got the idea that he should eat what Adam ate in Paradise ( special vegan food, it says in the Bible), and he became healed as a wonder, the doctors were surprised. He had his belief, but still I think the healing has something to do with the food he ate, maybe it was more clean?

Peter

[Cristina Novakovic]

Never heard of this Monday fast! Must be my priest didn't tell me about it because he knows my weakness about obssessing with fasts!

Mary, you're so funny! You made me think of myself and my obsessions with fasts. But in my case I think it's more the rule than the heart at work. I say that because it's only about the food for me. I guess that's because it's the easiest thing to control. Much easier than the thoughts or even the words that come out of my mouth...

I had heard about Mondays before, but I thought it was more for monasteries or if you have a fasting set as a canon by your spiritual father. So, it's in honour of the angels. Forgive my lack of knowledge, but what are Fridays and Wednesdays in honour of? Fridays for the torture of Christ on the cross and Wed in rememberance of Judas' s betrayal of Christ? My non-practising Orthodox family ask me things like that sometimes and I feel bad for not being able to give them an answer.

Somebody mentioned oil-free food. Is this not also a stricter rule for monasteries?

+ Cristina

[Father David Moser]

I had heard about Mondays before, but I thought it was more for monasteries or if you have a fasting set as a canon by your spiritual father. S
...
Somebody mentioned oil-free food. Is this not also a stricter rule for monasteries?


It is very important to always bear in mind that each person should fast according to the instruction given to him by his parish priest/spiritual father. Do not presume to take on a stricter or more lenient rule on your own initiative, but ask for a blessing. In this manner you are less likely to deceive yourself thinking either that you are "more spiritual" than others because you fast more or that you are fasting "enough" when in fact you are not.

So, Monday fasts and extra strict fasts or even keeping the "normal" rule out of a book are nice ideas, but the fasting rule for each person should be in accordance with the instruction you are given by your parish priest/spiritual father.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

but ask for a blessing.

Fr David Moser

This is a key word here. We always were taught to ask for a blessing for most of the very important spiritual endeavors and when we were not sure for something, or if we had something to confess about something we were not sure about and so on.

[Cristina Novakovic]

This is a key word here. We always were taught to ask for a blessing for most of the very important spiritual endeavors and when we were not sure for something, or if we had something to confess about something we were not sure about and so on.

Thank you Father David Moser and thank you Nina. I have got used to fasting Wed and Fri and the long fasts, although I have recently introduced shell fish and I feel a bit guilty for it :-(

I don't observe the oil rule though.

In terms of talking to my spiritual father... this is really hard. I'm kind of confused about that and I will explain why. My husband and I used to go to the Romanian church in London and confess to the Romanian priest Father Petre Pufulete, who is always wonderful to everyone. However, from Jan 2007, the church got really overcrowded and it became increasingly difficult to talk to the father or even get into church on Sunday! So, as my husband is Serbian, we decided to start going to the Serbian orthodox church instead. In the meantime, we were also going to the monastery in Essex a few times a year and that is where we confess now. But, as we go there only once a month or even less frequently, it is quite hard to ask our father about all the questions that we beginners have.

All this is very hard. I would like to go to the monastery every Sunday; I really miss it. But "something" seems to always come up! Please pray for me.

+ Cristina

[Father David Moser]

monastery in Essex a few times a year and that is where we confess now. But, as we go there only once a month or even less frequently, it is quite hard to ask our father about all the questions that we beginners have.


Write letters - I know that's so "old fashioned" and outmoded, but it really does help. I get letters from distant spiritual children regularly and I then have the luxury of thinking about my response rather than having to say something "off the cuff" as it were. Even if you don't get a written correspondence going, you still give your spiritual father a chance to prepare a lot of answers for you on the times when you do go.

Fr David Moser

[Cristina Novakovic]

Write letters - I know that's so "old fashioned" and outmoded, but it really does help. I get letters from distant spiritual children regularly and I then have the luxury of thinking about my response rather than having to say something "off the cuff" as it were. Even if you don't get a written correspondence going, you still give your spiritual father a chance to prepare a lot of answers for you on the times when you do go.

Fr David Moser

I think that's a great idea! Thank you. I will try to do that.
It's really sad for me to realise that I get so tied up with work that I forget to have a personal life (prayer, reading, writing, making my own food etc). I have watched the documentary Passages through Paradise about Mount Athos recently and got a wonderful feeling of peace: I was impressed at how the monks live free of the pressure of time that most of us experience in our daily lives in the world.

+Cristina

[Michael Stickles]

Write letters - I know that's so "old fashioned" and outmoded, but it really does help. I get letters from distant spiritual children regularly and I then have the luxury of thinking about my response rather than having to say something "off the cuff" as it were. Even if you don't get a written correspondence going, you still give your spiritual father a chance to prepare a lot of answers for you on the times when you do go.

I've found this kind of thing a blessing also, as my spiritual father and I conduct most (not all) of our interaction by e-mail. Not only do we both have more of a chance to think through things, but I have a record of his answers in my e-mail folders to help me not "mis-remember" what he said.

Mike

[Mary]

I've found this kind of thing a blessing also, as my spiritual father and I conduct most (not all) of our interaction by e-mail. Not only do we both have more of a chance to think through things, but I have a record of his answers in my e-mail folders to help me not "mis-remember" what he said.

Mike

Plus, after a year, I realized that I was having the same old problems and I already had a collection of very specific, tailored to my need kind of answers, right there in my inbox!! Of course, it is slightly discouraging and embarrassing to see what a slow learner I am!! =)

Mary