Suicide, heaven and hell [Archive] - Monachos.net Discussion Community

Paul Cowan

07-02-2008, 04:16 AM

Is suicide a sin that automatically lands one in Hell? Is suicide the only sin which does not allow for repentance in the afterlife?

Once we die, we die. There are no more chances to repent of our sins. Yes, prayers for the dead can be beneficial, but may or may not change God's mind to the final resting place of our soul.

We have this life to repent of our sins. Actually, we only have this moment as we are not promised tomorrow or even later today. All we have is Right Now. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. By destroying our selves through suicide, we are destroying God's temple. I don't think he will appreciate that.

The only time I have heard of suicide not necessarily being a sin is when the person is NOT in their right mind. Most people are as they write good bye letters. They just can't see a way out of a particular situation and think this is the only option open to them. This is a rational decision and is not ok.

There are always options. Don't ever let anyone tell you differently.

Paul

Andreas Moran

07-02-2008, 09:43 AM

I suppose the first place to turn is the Gospel account of Judas's suicide. Christ had said it had been better if Judas had never been born because of what he would do. But we have to be careful to distinguish suicide done in state of such mental disturbance and illness that a compassionate view is taken. It's tempting to think that no sane person commits suicide and so compassion should always be shown unless the wilfulness of the suicide is clear. And there is, of course, the case of the suicide of the person who is not of faith and so doesn't know the spiritual consequences.

Nina

07-02-2008, 04:57 PM

From St. Niphon's (an early 4th century Bishop and ascetic) visions:

Down further, however, the servant of God [St. Niphon] saw the demons dragging a soul to the infernal regions. It was the soul of some servant who had hung himself. Behind him followed his guardian angel weeping bitterly for his loss. In the midst of his tears he was saying: "Ah, the foxy demons who make people do such evil! There, this servant's master, obeying the demons, would become angry, hit him terribly, and let him starve to death. And this poor soul became desperate, took the rope and hung himself, offering his life wholly a sacrifice to Satan. Ah, alas! The Almighty gave him to me to guard after his baptism, and the filthy dragon snatched him from me suddenly and devoured him! How will I appear to my Lord in this grieving and bitter state? But also, how will I face my Maker sorrowful for the loss of this soul?"

While he was painfully saying this, another angel appeared from heaven. "Our Father, the Lord of hosts," he told him, "commands you to go to Rome, where this very moment the son of a soldier is being baptized. Take charge of him and guard him through the Holy Spirit given to him at baptism. And I shall punish the master of this servant and teach him no to become angry nor hit his servants nor let them starve to death."

The angel said this on behalf of God and ascended into heaven, while the former set out for Rome according to the divine command. pp. 81-82

Book: Stories, Sermons, and Prayers of St. Nephon: An Ascetic Bishop

Silouan Howard

07-02-2008, 05:04 PM

Ive heard the story recounted about Elder Sophrony and his sister's suicide, but I can't honestly recount it accurately. Does anyone know more about this?

Andreas Moran

07-02-2008, 05:31 PM

Elder Sophrony

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ive heard the story recounted about Elder Sophrony and his sister's suicide, but I can't honestly recount it accurately. Does anyone know more about this?

He prayed her out of hell but it took a year of intense effort.

Silouan Howard

07-02-2008, 05:33 PM

Where was this story documented?

He prayed her out of hell but it took a year of intense effort.

RichardWorthington

07-02-2008, 06:09 PM

He prayed her out of hell but it took a year of intense effort.

Surely that would imply that God would have had mercy on her at the Judgement and welcomed her into Paradise, after all to pray someone out of hell means that there was a Christ-implanted seed still alive within her. But as we have to be purified of sin, we can purify ourselves now, or have it purified out of us after death ... but God is the good, king, gentle Lover of manind even to those undergoing such purification ...

Similarly, I read the life of Father Zachariah (or Zosima) "an early soviet saint" (died 1936). On page 36-7 we read of a monk who committed suicide, and that the superiors of the monastery should have helped him more -

Fr Zosima declared to the superiors of the monastery: 'You are guilty of the despair and death of Nahum, so at least pray now for his soul.'

After long and earnest prayers for him, Father Zosima saw in a dream the wretched man who had perished. He was walking along with his face turned away, wearing dirty clothing, torn to ribbons. Around him were leaping demons with staves and lances. 'Where is your monk's cloak?' Fr Zosima asked him. 'I haven't got it,' replied Nahum. 'Give me yours.' Fr Zosima took off his monk's robe and covered the half-naked suicide with it.

On reading this, I thought, "If Fr Zosima had compassion on the man who committed suicide, then surely God who knows all and who is the inspiration for such compassion and love must surely treat him as His own on the Last Day.

I was told that even in the last moments of one's life, even if the life was taken by the very person, that man has a chance to repent and have metanoia.

I would love to see what people much more versed on this subject have to say.

Marianthy

I saw a documentary about people who jumped off the Golden Gate bridge in San Francisco. If they survived the fall, some would swim obviously trying to save their lives, even if they later died. The documentary also mentioned mental illnesses as not being understood enough. As such, who knows what the last thoughts are of those who succeed in committing suicide? God is on humanity's side, and not agaisnt us.

I think that the church's harsh teaching on suicide is more of a strong way of saying not to do such a thing, but then also knowing about God's love.

However, is it true that if a person commits suicide that the church will not have a funeral service or bury them?

Richard

Andreas Moran

07-02-2008, 06:10 PM

Re Silouan's post: Letters to David Balfour - my wife read it but I think it may only be available in Russian.

Nina

07-02-2008, 06:24 PM

God is merciful, Justin, but exactly for His great mercy and love we must not pay Him back with suicide. What did He do for us? Only good and wonderful things and even took our wretched nature which is from the dust, and saved us. Life is difficult, but He is there to help us go through it. All Saints had difficulties but they did not commit suicide. All Martyrs suffered in the hands of other people but they endured and did not commit suicide. They could have excused themselves and committed suicide since their trials were great, but they did not kill themselves, since suicide is the ultimate sin (provided the person has his mind - he can write and think etc.) and after that the person has NO chance for repentance! We can think that there can be a person to pray us out of hell if we commit suicide, but who can give us that guarantee??? God said do not kill, that includes ourselves. The Orthodox Church does not have funeral service for suicides... There was a priest whose daughter committed suicide since she was so young and loved a guy and it was kind of forbidden love, and the poor priest could not even bury his own poor daughter with an Orthodox funeral...

Moses Ibrahim

07-02-2008, 11:31 PM

Saint Samson commit suicide when he took his life along with countless philistines in the court as prisoner. Yet God did not punish him for he was righteous in doing so.

However, in the Second Ecumenical Council, all 180 Fathers, agreed that the Holy Sacrifice not be offered for suicides.

We also have Saint Timothy, the Archbishop of Alexandria, who in his 14th canon says: "If anyone, being beside himself, shall raise his hands against himself or cast himself from a height, should there be the Holy Offering for him or no? Concerning such a one, the clergyman must determine whether or not he was genuinely out of his mind when he did this or not; for often those close to the one who suffered by his own hand, seeking to obtain the celebration of the Holy Mysteries and prayers for him, speak untruthfully and say that he was beside himself. Yet it may be that on account of human insult or from some other reason out of pusillanimity, he did this thing; and for such a one there should be no Holy Offering, as he is a suicide. Therefore, the clergyman must investigate with care lest he fall under judgment."

St. Thekla the proto-martyr saved the pagan Falconilla after her death. Also St. Gregory the Pope of Rome saved the pagan emperor Trajan. The empress Theodora obtained forgiveness of sins from God for her dead husband Theophilus who was the last iconoclast persecutor of Christians. And for those interested, these pagans did not commit suicide.

Now for my own opinion, I think that Elder Sophrony's sister was beside herself and that is why she obtained repose among the Saints by her brothers intercessions. I hope I am wrong and that it extends to those who are suicides and were not mentally ill but only God knows and only by God's grace can deceased sinners be numbered among the Saints. As for the Holy Church's teachings, we should not offer the Bloody Sacrifice for suicides who aren't mentally ill.

The Church holds that suicides are to be left to the judgment of God and that salvation should be attained by following the teachings of the Church which do not advocate any form of self harm... for our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Nina

08-02-2008, 01:12 AM

As for the Holy Church's teachings, we should not offer the Bloody Sacrifice for suicides who aren't mentally ill.

Yes.

As for your questions, the son whose mother asked you cannot be commemorated by the Church because he committed suicide. If she wants, she can only give to charity for him. The Lord is great and the depth of His charity is infinite. If she wants, she should send alms especially to the ascetics, who pray day and night and whose prayers the Lord hears. As you mentioned, she knows many monks. She should give them alms to distribute amongst themselves, or to nuns. Nothing else can be done for him. pp. 210-211 Monastic Wisdom: The Letters of Elder Joseph the Hesychast

As you can see from other posts and the words of Elder Joseph, dear Justin, the mercy of God is something infinite and we always can rely on it. However, if there is someone pondering suicide and visits this thread, premeditating everything he/she can not rely on the prayers of others for after the fact. We can have hope in His infinite mercy for the people who have already departed in that manner, but who assures us, that if we commit it, there will be someone praying us out of hell? Of course God is All-Good and we never know how He will decide with His just judgment, but we must lift our responsibility also. Lifting the cross is something God asked us to. Giving up life in that manner, provided the person has the mental clarity, means to be friends with the demons who are not really our friends but are envious of us and nothing gives them more pleasure than to punish and accuse us. Because they know how much God loves us. This is the whole story. This is the why for our struggle.

God is our Benefactor and we must pay Him with whatever good there is and that we can. Suicide is not something He wants from us and therefore it is not good. Do we get saved after we are sent to hell initially? Maybe yes. But why should I rely on others to pray and do good deeds for me after suicide, when praying and doing good deeds, is MY responsibility?

Justin Farr

08-02-2008, 01:25 AM

Moses Ibrahim

08-02-2008, 01:32 AM

Wow. The information I have learned in this thread is appalling at best...

EDIT: Not to say this in a derogatory way... but not even a funeral service? Ouch. Harsh... and seemingly terribly unloving. Good grief.

Just another heads up about refusing funerals, my previous priest did not give an Orthodox person a funeral because in his will he wanted to be cremated and was cremated. So he told the family that he would not do it and they were appalled. Yet if he were to have shown economia in this case, many Orthodox people would switch from burial to cremation for financial reasons.

Nina

08-02-2008, 01:35 AM

Wow. The information I have learned in this thread is appalling at best...

EDIT: Not to say this in a derogatory way... but not even a funeral service? Ouch. Harsh... and seemingly terribly unloving. Good grief.

Justin, people are buried. But Orthodox can not have Church services if the person was mentally ok. As Elder Joseph the Hesychast said the only thing is giving alms and asking a monastic to pray for the poor soul. Read his words.

Tessa Miljanic

08-02-2008, 03:50 AM

Yes, I think in most cases the Orthodox Church WILL NOT bury someone who committs suicide.

My brother's friend (a Greek American) in Florida committed suicide last year. They say he was a very depressed fellow and he was fighting with his girlfriend over the phone before he shot himself. It was very sad. The Church refused any service for him, so his mother ended up using one of these cookie cutter funeral home clerics, it was like some new age lady in a collar. My brother said it was terrible.

I remember my dad telling me a story from when he was a kid where his dad (my grandfather) was a priest at Holy Trinity Serbian Orthodox Church. A male parishoner killed his wife then killed himself. So they had the service for the wife in church and the husbands coffin was outside the church at the bottom of the steps. It really made an impression on my dad and he ALWAYS used to tell us this story and reinforce the church's view.

Whether or not the graves of those who suicide can be blessed or if the parastos service can be held for them, if even outside of church, I would be interested to know.

Lord have mercy on us all.

In Christ,
Tessa

Yuri Zharikov

08-02-2008, 04:13 AM

Wow. The information I have learned in this thread is appalling at best...

EDIT: Not to say this in a derogatory way... but not even a funeral service? Ouch. Harsh... and seemingly terribly unloving. Good grief.

Justin,
Why is it harsh and unloving? Why is following the rules of the Church which are spiritual rules, harsh and unloving? If somebody tells me "do not lick the metal door handle when it's -20 outside" or "do not jump from the 3rd floor onto pavement" how is it unloving? Also why is our logic of life seems always to be like this - let us jump from the 3rd floor onto the pavement and then pray to God to forgive us? He will forgive us, but our legs are broken nonetheless. Isn't salvation about love? And if I have not even tried to love God in this live (and killed myself) how in principle is it possible to "pray me out" of this un-love, when the door of the bridechamber has been closed forever.

How many people may have been saved from suicide by the knowledge that they would not receive a Christian burial? The laxer we are about precepts of the Church the more of us forget that there is only today for repentance, and people go to hell on account of this laxity. The logic become deadly: we will eat, drink, do what we what, commit things that are irrevocable by any account, and then hope that the Church will pray us out of this mess after we are no longer here. We all hope and believe in Lord's mercy, more so He Himself stands there and knocks waiting for us to open. But why do we forget about that healthy fear of judgment?

In the Lord,
Yura

Justin Farr

08-02-2008, 04:29 AM

Moses Ibrahim

08-02-2008, 04:32 AM

Why cause the family even more grief? There loved one killed themselves, and the family is going to bury the body anyways. Why cause more grief? Why not a proper funeral.

I told one of my atheist friends about this (it probably wasn't the wisest thing to do...) and she replied: Because they're Orthodox and no matter how much most Christian churches preach tollerance and forgiveness, Christian clergy is generally the most intolerant and unforgiving thing on earth.

If all the Saints of the Orthodox Faith agree on this issue... then why question the Holy Spirit who enlightens its Saints? Forgive me sounding harsh, but I'm only trying to clarify that they do this because this is how the Church has been guided by God Himself.

Justin Farr

08-02-2008, 04:34 AM

If all the Saints of the Orthodox Faith agree on this issue... then why question the Holy Spirit who enlightens its Saints? Forgive me sounding harsh, but I'm only trying to clarify that they do this because this is how the Church has been guided by God Himself.

I am just trying to understand why God.... did.... enforced... this rule... thing. The same reason why I still constantly question Old Testament sacrifices. I just don't seem to understand.

Moses Ibrahim

08-02-2008, 04:35 AM

I am just trying to understand why God.... did.... enforced... this rule... thing. The same reason why I still constantly question Old Testament sacrifices. I just don't seem to understand.

What old Testament sacrifices?

Justin Farr

08-02-2008, 04:37 AM

If all the Saints of the Orthodox Faith agree on this issue... then why question the Holy Spirit who enlightens its Saints? Forgive me sounding harsh, but I'm only trying to clarify that they do this because this is how the Church has been guided by God Himself.

What old Testament sacrifices?

Um... the poor animals and such they would sacrifice to God.

Yuri Zharikov

08-02-2008, 04:39 AM

Why cause the family even more grief? There loved one killed themselves, and the family is going to bury the body anyways. Why cause more grief? Why not a proper funeral.

I told one of my atheist friends about this (it probably wasn't the wisest thing to do...) and she replied: Because they're Orthodox and no matter how much most Christian churches preach tollerance and forgiveness, Christian clergy is generally the most intolerant and unforgiving thing on earth.

Read the texts of the burial service and you will see that everything said there will not be true about a suicide. A priest will be standing there and lying to God... what is the point of that?

In the Lord, Yura

Moses Ibrahim

08-02-2008, 04:48 AM

Um... the poor animals and such they would sacrifice to God.

Did not Christ eat fish... did not God give man dominion over the animals? Did not God send pigeons or chickens or whichever I cannot remember rite now, but did He not send them to the Jews as food for them to hunt who wandered in the middle of nowhere (desert) with the Holy Prophet Moses? Did not Christ allow the demons to enter the herd of pigs which drowned in the river from the demoniac man? There are hundreds of instances, yet why is it so hard to except that this is the allowed or is the will of God?

Yuri Zharikov

08-02-2008, 04:57 AM

Um... the poor animals and such they would sacrifice to God.

If they did not sacrifice to God they would be sacrificing to demons, probably not only animals but their sons and daughters - this is what their neighbours did. God did not need the blood of goats and oxen, but the Jews needed something to keep them focused on God, not to forget Him and perish.

In the Lord,
Yura

Amy

08-02-2008, 05:37 AM

Justin Farr:

I told one of my atheist friends about this (it probably wasn't the wisest thing to do...) and she replied: Because they're Orthodox and no matter how much most Christian churches preach tollerance and forgiveness, Christian clergy is generally the most intolerant and unforgiving thing on earth.

...just wanted to address this: my hope, Justin, is that you shared Christ with your friend. It is Christ who saves, not the clergy. I have some experience with atheists and you are correct, that to share your misgivings only feeds their arguments. It is Holy Scripture that condemns suicide. You cannot point a judgmental finger at the Church for upholding Truth; in fact, you should rejoice in it!

I hope your friend is seeking Truth; you may be the light of Christ in her life.

"There would be no need for sermons if our lives were shining; there would be no need for words if we bore witness with our deeds. There would be no pagans, if we were true Christians" - St. John Crysostom

Angela V.

08-02-2008, 10:24 AM

Herman Blaydoe

08-02-2008, 03:51 PM

The difference between a suicide and a martyr is fear. The suicide fears the pain or consequences in this life and fears that even God cannot help him or her. The martyr is saying that their love for God overcomes their fear of death. The suicide fears life more than death, the martyr fears neither life nor death, because of their faith in God.

Generally speaking, the Church cannot condone the use of the sacraments such as burial rites for a suicide. This is because a suicide is essentially saying "my problems are so big that even God cannot help me." This is not an attitude that the Church would want to encourage. But we leave it up to God to judge this person and their particular circumstance because in many situations they are the only two parties who know what was really going on at the time.

I said "generally speaking" because many bishops will allow exceptions if the person in question was determined not to be "in their right mind" or of a rational mind, incapable of making a rational decision. This is one of the reasons we have bishops, to make such decisions in a God-pleasing and not self-pleasing manner.

What the Church is ultimately saying is that we do not know what happened between this person and God, so we leave it to His mercy as to their ultimate fate. The burial service is not "magic". Many saints died without a proper burial, only God knows how many. It is not "Christian ground" or rites that make a saint or save a soul. These things are more for the living than for the dead. Indeed, the burial service, as others have said, are a lesson to the living in righteous living so that we might stand "... blameless before the dread judgement seat of Christ."

Some of us have looked into that deep dark pit of despair and contemplated simply jumping in. But it is simple things like knowing that I wouldn't receive an Orthodox burial and that I would be a source of shame for my children that kept me from that brink at one time.

Demetrios

08-02-2008, 08:14 PM

I believe it depends on how we perceive life. Theosis is our attempt in collaboration with god to become the image of Christ. This includes wanting an eternal existence. When someone willingly separates from Gods energies. They are choosing death over life. This isn't gods judgment.
The person that commits suicide is the one making a decision to remove himself from the salvation, Christ has offered. By doing so. they have chosen death over life.

Jason Adams

02-09-2008, 05:58 AM

Justin,

In the Old Testament they sacrificed animals. But in the New Testament Christ was the ultimate sacrifice.

The reason we cannot take our lives, is because God has given us the gift of life. Therefore taking your own life, it is like giving His gift back. How would you feel if a gift that you have given to someone you love, gets thrown back to you?

Yes, our church do not bury someone that has committed suicide. (unless they are not in there right state of mind) but only God knows that.

+Angela

Quite frankly Angela these type of arguments I have been hearing from many Christian sources and they don't seem to be valid to me. Are we better that God? We are certainly not, and when we give a precious gift to someone we love and this person rejects that gift we are hurt but we don't throw our loved one into a burning pit for that transgression against us do we?

Please don't take it personally, as I don't want to offend anyone.

Also, can anyone enlighten me why we equal killing with suicide? To me it means different things. The Ten Commandements forbid killing and the Israelites killed many people on God's orders. There must be different kinds of killing?

If I am harsh or stupid let me know please so that I stop asking questions.

JA

Herman Blaydoe

02-09-2008, 12:38 PM

Quite frankly Angela these type of arguments I have been hearing from many Christian sources and they don't seem to be valid to me. Are we better that God? We are certainly not, and when we give a precious gift to someone we love and this person rejects that gift we are hurt but we don't throw our loved one into a burning pit for that transgression against us do we?

Nobody here is saying that. We are simply saying that the Church believes the suicide is in God's hands and only He knows where that person will ultimately end up. We don't throw anyone into a burning pit.

Also, can anyone enlighten me why we equal killing with suicide? To me it means different things. The Ten Commandements forbid killing and the Israelites killed many people on God's orders. There must be different kinds of killing?

There is NO "good" kind of killing. The intentional ending of a human life by another human is sin, even when it becomes unavoidable.

It depends on how you define "suicide". Not renouncing God in the face of the threat of death might be called suicide by some. Their actions resulted in the loss of their own lives, but we call these people martyrs, not suicides.

The WHY matters. Nobody is denying that. But the Church, in good conscience and with a firm understanding of its responsibility, must do what it can to make sure people understand that suicide is NOT a proper action for a Christian to take, and its available options to reinforce this are very limited

Nothing wrong with questions. Keep seeking answers, that is how you learn.

Herman

Misha

02-09-2008, 12:57 PM

St Domnina with her daughters

St. Domnina was a woman with two daughters named Verine (St. John Chrysostom called her Vernike, or Berenice) and Prosdoce. Leaving their home and family, they settled in Edessa on the plain of Mesopotamia.
St. Domnina’s husband was a pagan and took the women to Hieropolis in Syria. When the soldiers stopped to rest and eat, they became drunk with wine. Taking advantage of this opportunity, the women fled and were drowned in a nearby river.
According to St. John Chrysostom, Domnina stood in the middle of the river and pulled her daughters under the water with her because she was afraid that the soldiers were going to rape them. St. John praised Domnina for her courage, and Berenice and Prosdoce for their obedience.

Saint Pelagia (october 8th) was a virgin of fifteen years, who chose death by a leap from the housetop rather than dishonour. She is mentioned by st.Ambrose (De virg. iii. 7, 33; Ep. xxxvii. ad Simplic.), and is the subject of two sermons by st John Chrysostom.

Who can be absolutely sure about what a human being ,who killed him/herself ,had in mind when he commited suicide?
P.e. if someone has an uncontrollable tendency to abuse children and prefers to kill himself than to continue this way of life,who can blame him?

I think these people need our prayers more than anyone else.It's easy to judge but it's hard to pray from the heart for someone in a difficult position.

Ryan

02-09-2008, 01:50 PM

Jason Adams

02-09-2008, 10:02 PM

In Orthodox catechisms I have seen, the commandment is usually interpreted as forbidding , in a civil sense. It does not forbid necessary done in defensive wars. According to Met. Philaret's catechism, it also does not forbid capital punishment, assuming that the judgment has been just.

The Old Testament sequence of wars and massacres is certainly disconcerting. The battle of Jericho, for instance, was basically an act of mass human sacrifice, if it really happened (some modern archaeologists argue that it couldn't have happened). I have seen these events interpreted as spiritual allegories. I think a basic attitude of the Fathers is that the Old Testament world showed the impossibility of humanity living up to God's commandments, the cruelty of the fallen world, and the need for a savior.

It is true that it is impossible to live according to God's commandmends on the social level. The society has to punish crimes etc. What is really disconcerting for me is that God ordered some of genocides like the destruction of Amalekites that Saul was ordered to perform and failed (king Agag). Also God ordered king David to kill the descendants of some person (can't remember now who he was) and these poor souls were "impaled before the Lord" a really cruel death comparable to crucifiction.

If these killings were somehow justified suicide may in many cases be justified too. I have an impression that we don't have enough imformation to be able to judge anyone especially those committing suicide. Eg depression is now considered a mental disease but was not even recognised to as late as 19th century(I might be wrong here). So, deeply depressed person commits suicide and his/her family is further punished by the Church because nobody recognises that the person was "out of mind"

Shouldn't we be more forgiving?

Herman Blaydoe

02-09-2008, 11:55 PM

If these killings were somehow justified suicide may in many cases be justified too. I have an impression that we don't have enough imformation to be able to judge anyone especially those committing suicide. Eg depression is now considered a mental disease but was not even recognised to as late as 19th century(I might be wrong here). So, deeply depressed person commits suicide and his/her family is further punished by the Church because nobody recognises that the person was "out of mind"

Shouldn't we be more forgiving?

The position of the Orthodox Church on suicide is not about "forgiving" or "not forgiving". That is in God's hands and that is all the Church really says. The goal of the Church is salvation, not simply making people "feel better". Saying that suicide is "justified" sends entirely the wrong message. This is why it is better for the wisdom of the Spirit-led Church to decide these things than what happens to pass for popular psychology at the time, unlike some other churches.

As one ex-Anglican said (G. K. Chesterton): "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about."

Herman the Pooh

Jason Adams

03-09-2008, 02:08 AM

The position of the Orthodox Church on suicide is not about "forgiving" or "not forgiving". That is in God's hands and that is all the Church really says. The goal of the Church is salvation, not simply making people "feel better". Saying that suicide is "justified" sends entirely the wrong message. This is why it is better for the wisdom of the Spirit-led Church to decide these things than what happens to pass for popular psychology at the time, unlike some other churches.

As one ex-Anglican said (G. K. Chesterton): "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about."

Herman the Pooh

If I seem to be arrogant, forgive me please, this is certaily not my intention.
I remember many instances when the church (not Orthodox Church though) was very strict - not allowing the person to be buried in the "holy soil". The family was devastated and the young ones were put off Christianity certaily for a long time if not for ever.

My point is that if there are various opinions about the matter shouldn't we err on the forgiveness and love side? "The new commandement I give you, love each other so that people know that you are mine" (free transcription)

Jason

Herman Blaydoe

03-09-2008, 02:50 AM

If I seem to be arrogant, forgive me please, this is certaily not my intention.
I remember many instances when the church (not Orthodox Church though) was very strict - not allowing the person to be buried in the "holy soil". The family was devastated and the young ones were put off Christianity certaily for a long time if not for ever.

My point is that if there are various opinions about the matter shouldn't we err on the forgiveness and love side? "The new commandement I give you, love each other so that people know that you are mine" (free transcription)

Jason

I suspect that is part of the reason we have bishops. That is why they get to wear the funny hats. Hopefully they can make that call with Godly discernment as the situation requires. "We" are not bishops.

Jason Adams

03-09-2008, 03:36 AM

I suspect that is part of the reason we have bishops. That is why they get to wear the funny hats. Hopefully they can make that call with Godly discernment as the situation requires. "We" are not bishops.

Thank you Herman. And, I am glad I am not a bishop and I will never be :)

Chev. James R. Weber KGCT

04-09-2008, 06:56 PM

Also, can anyone enlighten me why we equal killing with suicide? To me it means different things. The Ten Commandements forbid killing and the Israelites killed many people on God's orders. There must be different kinds of killing?

JA
It forbids Murder not killing.

Kusanagi

26-11-2008, 02:35 PM

Is suicide a sin that automatically lands one in Hell?

Yes because it is the destruction of both body and soul. Also the church does not bury them on blessed land for burials, nor do they hold services for them. This is not because they are cold hearted but because they do not want everyone to think ah if i kill myself the church will say prayers for me anyway. Much in the same mindset that when Christ died and washed away all sin does not mean I can go and sin as much as I like because it was already forgiven when Christ died.

There are examples of miracles from saints when they interceded to prevent someone from committing suicide and St Petka and St John Maximovitch are some examples long with Fr Porphyrios. So they know the dangers to both the body and soul of what suicide does.

But if the priest does bury a suicided person and hold church services like an example i know then that is left up to the priest and his bishop.

Prayers can be said for the suicided person there is even a canon for it. I think their are examples in the life of St Leonid and Ambrose of Optina about people praying for the suicide to be taken out of hell and it was a very difficult but ascetic thing to perform.

Paul Cowan

26-11-2008, 05:43 PM

Yes because it is the destruction of both body and soul. Also the church does not bury them on blessed land for burials, nor do they hold services for them. This is not because they are cold hearted but because they do not want everyone to think ah if i kill myself the church will say prayers for me anyway. Much in the same mindset that when Christ died and washed away all sin does not mean I can go and sin as much as I like because it was already forgiven when Christ died.

There are examples of miracles from saints when they interceded to prevent someone from committing suicide and St Petka and St John Maximovitch are some examples long with Fr Porphyrios. So they know the dangers to both the body and soul of what suicide does.

But if the priest does bury a suicided person and hold church services like an example i know then that is left up to the priest and his bishop.

Prayers can be said for the suicided person there is even a canon for it. I think their are examples in the life of St Leonid and Ambrose of Optina about people praying for the suicide to be taken out of hell and it was a very difficult but ascetic thing to perform.

I don't think this is 100% correct. It is true suicide is a sin, it is also true those that commit suicide are not mentally stable and the Church offers economia to these in this state and DOES bury and pray for them as if they were "whole" people. It's not the same as if someone were in their right mind and committed murder.

Kusanagi

26-11-2008, 08:47 PM

DOES bury and pray for them as if they were "whole" people. It's not the same as if someone were in their right mind and committed murder.

i said does not bury them on blessed land not does not bury them.
Meaning the suicide is not buried on soil for those the priest thinks has reposed in the Church. They are buried elsewhere without a Cross as their grave stone.
I do know they do get prayed for otherwise there wouldn't be a canon for such situation.

Father David Moser

26-11-2008, 10:50 PM

I don't think this is 100% correct. It is true suicide is a sin, it is also true those that commit suicide are not mentally stable and the Church offers economia to these in this state and DOES bury and pray for them as if they were "whole" people. It's not the same as if someone were in their right mind and committed murder.

This is also not 100% correct. Suicide is not an automatic or infallible indication of mental instability. Not all suicides are deemed to be "not in their right mind" and in such cases where the person truly knew what they were doing when taking their own life, they cannot be buried from the Church and in blessed ground. However, if there is evidence that a person was not in their right mind, either by reason of intoxication or of a demonstrable mental illness, then the bishop can permit a church funeral and burial in blessed ground.

Even when a person is not buried in blessed ground (for whatever reason) there are prayers that can be said (such as the akathist for those departed this life) and they can be remembered in one's personal prayers (just not in the public prayers of the Church).

Fr David Moser

Paul Cowan

26-11-2008, 11:42 PM

Not all suicides are deemed to be "not in their right mind" and in such cases where the person truly knew what they were doing when taking their own life, they cannot be buried from the Church and in blessed ground.

What person in his right mind takes his own life? It seems this is a perspective of the outsider and not the person who has taken it. What happens if it were not apparent until years later the person was in a state of "confusion" and was buried not on holy ground? Woudl that person be dug up and moved?

Not trying to be argumentative here, but who is to say who is in their right or wrong minds after the fact?

Eric Peterson

27-11-2008, 12:22 AM

Well, there is a process of discernment to determine the person's frame of mind. Whatever the case, however, all suicides are in serious need of our prayers and alms.

Herman Blaydoe

27-11-2008, 12:22 AM

What person in his right mind takes his own life?

What person "in his right mind" takes the life of another? Yes that is a rhetorical question. What person in his right mind would want to be a martyr? We need to be very careful here. What, exactly is a "right" mind and who gets to define it? Here's a hint, thee and mee are probably not the best candidates. [insert smiley here]

It seems this is a perspective of the outsider and not the person who has taken it.

Unless God has granted us the gift of discernment and clairvoyance, how can we know what is going on in the mind of anyone? But to come to the point, it is possible to make a conscious decision to take your own life. Humans have such incredible powers of self-rationalization and can justify just about anything.

What happens if it were not apparent until years later the person was in a state of "confusion" and was buried not on holy ground? Woudl that person be dug up and moved?

Why not? In Greece it happens as a matter of course in that those interred in mausoleums get moved to ossuaries. But hey it is not like they would have been buried in "unholy ground" and HAVE to be moved. "Holy ground" is not magical. Many saints were not buried in holy ground.

Not trying to be argumentative here, but who is to say who is in their right or wrong minds after the fact?

That is why the Church, in its wisdom TRADITIONALLY leaves it up to God as to what happens to such people. Suicide is something we want to discourage, very strongly, and the ability of the Church to do so is rather limited. Simply ASSUMING that every suicide is "not in their right mind" so we don't offend their families is not the way to do this. I do believe that there have been rather straightforward cases where the circumstances were known that a particular person was over medicated, for instance, and not responsible for his actions. I don't believe that is the situation for every suicide however. Each case really would need to be evaluated individually, and that is why we have bishops, that is why they get to wear the funny hats.

Herman the Pooh

Chev. James R. Weber KGCT

27-11-2008, 01:13 AM

Well,
This is simply a level of commitment for what you believe in. Far too many Monks and soldiers have...

I believe suicide is wrong for so many non-spiritual reasons Honor, Dignity, and the list goes on... but it is my ego and vanity that stops me not reason or rationalization... but alas we come to the "it" IMHO as I see it...
It is education, family and Love that keeps us alive maybe we should focus our attention as educating those who would consider Martyring themselves or committing suicide

God Bless and think of the reason for thanksgiving

Your eternal servant
James

What person "in his right mind" takes the life of another? Yes that is a rhetorical question. What person in his right mind would want to be a martyr?

Simply ASSUMING that every suicide is "not in their right mind" so we don't offend their families is not the way to do this. I do believe that there have been rather straightforward cases where the circumstances were known that a particular person was over medicated, for instance, and not responsible for his actions. I don't believe that is the situation for every suicide however. Each case really would need to be evaluated individually, and that is why we have bishops, that is why they get to wear the funny hats.

Herman the Pooh