Inability of Satan and his angels to repent?

[Mikael Oz]

Dear Readers,

I wonder if you could help me with identifying an argument I have come across in an 7th/8th century manuscript which was produced by a Syrian Orthodox patr? He argues that Satan and his angels (demons) had the opportunity to repent from the time of their fall until the crucifixion of Christ. After, Christ's crucifixion, they no longer can repent, but they have become inheritors of hell. And, kingdom and hell are not 2 creations, but hell is a support of the kingdom. Hell is there for man to fear it so that he will repent and aim at good deeds to be worthy kingdom of heaven.

Now, I wonder which early church fathers are for this idea? if you have come across any church fathers who discuss similar issues in Syriac/Aramaic. Or, Greek texts which were translated into Syriac in the 4th-7th century. I would really appreciate if you could help me by e-mailing me the authours and the name of their texts. Thank you...

[Sean M.]

I was recently watching a program with a priest called Father Mitch Pacwa, and someone asked him a question about something he had previously said about angels sinning.

If i remember correctly he said angels are not like people in that once they have decided to turn away from God they can change their minds. In the same way the angels who chose to remain loyal to God cannot change their minds, something like that.

[Moses Ibrahim]

I was recently watching a program with a priest called Father Mitch Pacwa, and someone asked him a question about something he had previously said about angels sinning.

If i remember correctly he said angels are not like people in that once they have decided to turn away from God they can change their minds. In the same way the angels who chose to remain loyal to God cannot change their minds, something like that.

This is not what the Orthodox Church believes. On the contrary, the Orthodox Church believes that the angels can repent yet they do not chose to do so of their own will, or should I say because of their majestic pride. There are many stories and one such story told by Elder Paisios of a monk who implored God to save Satan. The demon was making funny faces and mocking a monk who prayed to God to save the devil and his demons. The monk realized that God would save the devil if only the devil and his demons would repent. Yet the devil being willfully blinded by his satanic level of pride has chosen to continue his rebellious act against God.

[Father David Moser]

This is not what the Orthodox Church believes. On the contrary, the Orthodox Church believes that the angels can repent yet they do not chose to do so of their own will, or should I say because of their majestic pride.

That's not what I'm seeing in St John of Damascus (Exact Exposition of The Orthodox Faith; Book 2; Chapters 3 & 4)

Speaking of angels, he says:

The angel's nature then in rational and intelligent, and endowed with free will, changeable in will, or fickle. For all that is created is changeable and only that which is uncreated is unchangeable. All all that is rational is endowed with free-will. As it is then, rational and intelligent, it is endowed with free-will: and as it is created, it is changeable, having either the power to abide or progress in goodness, or to turn towards evil.

It is not susceptible of repentance because it is incorporeal. For it is owing to the weakness of his body that man comes to have repentance.

And then speaking of the devil and demons he says:

Note further, that what in the case of man is death is a fall in the case of angels. For after the fall there is no possibility of repentance for them, just as after death there is for men no repentance.

This then would indicate that the demons cannot repent. The angelic hosts are changeable in that they were created in harmony with God, but they can depart and turn away from that (although St John says that this is difficult). Having changed, however, it seems that they are not able to change back (that is repent) as they are incorporeal (the capacity of man for repentance it seems is the consequence of his having a corporeal body).

Fr David Moser

[Moses Ibrahim]

That's not what I'm seeing in St John of Damascus (Exact Exposition of The Orthodox Faith; Book 2; Chapters 3 & 4)

Speaking of angels, he says:


And then speaking of the devil and demons he says:


This then would indicate that the demons cannot repent. The angelic hosts are changeable in that they were created in harmony with God, but they can depart and turn away from that (although St John says that this is difficult). Having changed, however, it seems that they are not able to change back (that is repent) as they are incorporeal (the capacity of man for repentance it seems is the consequence of his having a corporeal body).

Fr David Moser

Fascinating... thank you for this post, according to the Greek Elders I was under the impression that they could repent yet they wouldn't do it.

I would also like to mention here Father, since this issue has been brought up. In the book, A Night On the Holy Mountain by Metropolitan Heirotheos Nafpaktos the monks are clearly praying for the devil and his demons. Why would they do this if it is clearly stated in St. John of Damascus's work that the incorporeal beings cannot repent? And just another quick question, did a lot of the Holy Fathers agree with St. John of Damascus or were there a few who agreed, or was St. John the only one who believed so? Thank you Father and forgive my ignorance.

Your blessing!

[Nina]

I might be wrong but from what I know, fallen angels can not repent. Fathers pray for them out of love. Because divine love knows no boundaries. However fallen angels can not repent.

The moment when Satan fell was a moment of test for all of the angels and those who fell, remain fallen. Those who did not fall can not fall. At the moment of fall of Satan, Archangels Michael took leadership and said the beautiful expressions we also say during Holy Liturgy:


Over all the Nine Ranks, the Lord put the Holy Archangel and Leader Michael (his name in translation from the Hebrew means "who is like unto God") -- a faithful servitor of God, wherein he hurled down from Heaven the arrogantly proud day-star Lucifer together with the other fallen spirits. And to the remaining Angelic powers he cried out, "Let us attend! Let us stand aright before our Creator and not ponder that which is displeasing unto God!" According to Church tradition, in the church service to the Archangel Michael concerning him, he participated in many other Old Testament events. Fr. Stephen Janos

[Mikael Oz]

I might be wrong but from what I know, fallen angels can not repent. Fathers pray for them out of love. Because divine love knows no boundaries. However fallen angels can not repent.

The moment when Satan fell was a moment of test for all of the angels and those who fell, remain fallen. Those who did not fall can not fall. At the moment of fall of Satan, Archangels Michael took leadership and said the beautiful expressions we also say during Holy Liturgy:


You are right. Accordig to most of the fathers, the angels were created with freedom. However, since they chose evil, it has been sowed in their nature to repent. This is why the argument I have listed is uniqe and I can not find it anywhere else. Nevertheless Issac the Syrian, believes the Hell is temporarily. This is to say, the evil will go to Hell, and be tortured/punished, but subsequently they will progress, and everybody will be at the same level in Kingdom, due to God's mercy. Could you please only answer if you have seen anything similar to the first argument!! Thanks..

[Antonios]

Dear Mikael,

Welcome to the forum! I wish I could give you the answer you are looking for, but I unfortunately, have other questions instead!

Which Syrian Orthodox patriarch wrote the statements you refer to in your opening post? I find what you wrote about hell being a supporter of the kingdom (of which I assume to be the kingdom of heaven) as well as it's design to act as a deterrent through the emotion of fear as something slightly different from my own understandings, as lacking as they are. You write that these writings are from the 7th/8th century?

Also, your last statement of St. Isaac's belief regarding a universal salvation, I believe, is not maintained by the majority witness of the Church. It is something I do recall having been alluded to by various Patristic sources, (I believe Origen to be one of the them), and while it is not something outside the power of God if He wills it, I think the overwhelming consensus is that it is a mystery.

In regards to the fascinating discussion regarding whether fallen angels or demons or even satan can repent, I think the answer was given by the other contributors. They cannot repent, and this may be precisely why we can. Perhaps even this may tell us something about our own role in creation. Maybe this can give us insight into why mankind was created, and why God entered into creation, Himself assuming material matter.

Through His redeeming actions, when we align our will with His, we enter His kingdom and assume the uncreated energies of God. Lovingly, this is an eternal movement towards Him, in growing communion with Him. When we do not heed His commandments and willfully align to His will, which is the definition of actions of fallen angels, we do not partake of the divine nature, and rather retract further and further from His Light, an eternal estrangment, an ever-increasing movement away from Him, an unsleeping worm as it were.

The time we have to effect the steering of this movement is here and now, in this life, in this body, while our will is still free (free as in the patristic sense of the word). When our souls and bodies depart, we become slaves to our corrupt will and any chance of salvation from this self-induced banishment is in God's hands and in His mercy. This is why we pray for those who departed from this material world and we say have fallen asleep in the Lord. Because, in order to repent and freely align your will to God's, you must be awake.

In Christ,
Antonios

[Robert Hegwood]

It is not susceptible of repentance because it is incorporeal. For it is owing to the weakness of his body that man comes to have repentance.

This brings to mind something I've thought about off and on for many years which may be very much beyond the pale...and off the wall.

First, consider the reprecosity of our bodies to creation. There is light and eyes to see it, air and lungs to breath, hunger and food that answers to that hunger. In short, our being corresponds to and has a living communion with the rest of creation. Our capacities and appetites correspond to our environment.

This being so then what capacity is being subverted when a man or an animal for that matter is possessed of an evil spirit? Why does this "vulnerability" even exist? It seems that it must have a "right use" a proper mode of corresponding with creation...or perhaps God...that is exploited by the demons (either one or a multitude) when a man opens himself to their influence in some significant way.

So with regard to the linkage that St. John makes between the possibility of repentance and corporeality it occurs to me that this "faculty" could presumably serve as a means of repentance for fallen angels either now (less likely) or in the age to come (safer). Thus if a fallen angel is willing by "possessing" a humble wise and holy someone who is willing to receive them then with that person serving as kind of "abbot" might not his body function as a "monastery" that would allow demons access to the corporality without which they cannot repent.

It may be just too bizarre an idea...but I wonder.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Robert, you wrote:


So with regard to the linkage that St. John makes between the possibility of repentance and corporeality it occurs to me that this "faculty" could presumably serve as a means of repentance for fallen angels either now (less likely) or in the age to come (safer). Thus if a fallen angel is willing by "possessing" a humble wise and holy someone who is willing to receive them then with that person serving as kind of "abbot" might not his body function as a "monastery" that would allow demons access to the corporality without which they cannot repent.

It may be just too bizarre an idea...but I wonder.

I'll certainly need more time to absorb what you've posed!

As an aside in the meantime, it is a very ancient confession of the fathers, that transience is bound up in materiality. That is, creation has the tendency to move, whether toward right or wrong, because it is material, and therefore temporal. But the spiritual orders, which are immaterial, are not bound to time through matter. This allows Irenaeus to say that angels, for example, are in their 'full perfection', whereas humankind has to grow, since it is infantile (referring to its created state in Eden).

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Robert Hegwood]

With regard to the question of immateriality and changeableness, if angels being immaterial are somehow "fixed" in their dispositions, how then does one account for the fall of some of them in the first place? If one links the capacity for change to createdness then the assertion seems plausable to me (as if I actually knew anything), but to link it to immateriality raises more questions than it answers (again as if I actually knew anything). If created immateriality only admits one "change" then that too can be provisionally worked with.

It would seem then that a fallen angel who sought to repent would then (if possible) have to trade in one mode of existence for another...but this track looks like it could lead to wackyville very easily (though it might serve as grist for a couple of fine speculative fiction novels).

And I suppose all this speculating is as fine as far as it goes if it doesn't go too far, but right at the heart of the issue is this: something in us recoils from the idea that one once as glorious as one of God's angels can mess up so completely that there is no more hope for them...ever. While with us, even the worst of us, through the prayers of the Church and/or some holy elder still cling to a thread of hope for deliverance, at least until the Judgement. How does a heart that has learned to burn (or wants to) with love for all God's creation give up hope for any part of it as utterly and for all time beyond repentance and thus salvation?

Granted free will is part of the image of God. It is necessary for both angels and men to possess to be morally accountable. And some...men and angels will presumably make an eternal wrong use of that will. But that caveat does not answer the question that asks then how can/will those fallen beings find grace to become once more as they were created to be?

[Nina]

With regard to the question of immateriality and changeableness, if angels being immaterial are somehow "fixed" in their dispositions, how then does one account for the fall of some of them in the first place?

Because that was their test.

[M.C. Steenberg]

With regard to the question of immateriality and changeableness, if angels being immaterial are somehow "fixed" in their dispositions, how then does one account for the fall of some of them in the first place?


Because that was their test.

Though this comment doesn't at all respond to Robert's query. He raises a good question that deserves some good patristic exploration.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Sean M.]

I don't know if this makes sense, but we are all decended from Adam and Eve, and so Christ redeemed us all because we are from two original parents whos sin was to disobey God in the garden of Eden. We are all effected by this fall.

Angles existed before man kind, and they do not reproduce as mortals do. Therefore wouldn't that mean that each individual angel who chose to rebel against God is entirely responsible for their own sin of rebellion, and would need a personal redeemer?

Therefore wouldn't angels have known that there was no turning back once they had decided to rebel against God? Unlike Adam and Eve who were decieved, it could be argued that the fallen angels rebelled against God with full culpability of the consequences of their rebellion.

[Father David Moser]

With regard to the question of immateriality and changeableness, if angels being immaterial are somehow "fixed" in their dispositions, how then does one account for the fall of some of them in the first place?

The impression that I get from reading St John's chapters in the "Exposition" is that for angels, the change is kind of a one way thing - they can change, but cannot change back. If I can I'll go back and look at it some more, however, if I don't get the chance then I recommend St John of Damascus (Exact Exposition of The Orthodox Faith; Book 2; Chapters 3 & 4) as a starting point.

Fr David Moser

[Antonios]

With regard to the question of immateriality and changeableness, if angels being immaterial are somehow "fixed" in their dispositions, how then does one account for the fall of some of them in the first place?

Dear Robert,

Excellent question, to which I can not recall offhand the answer to from my limited readings of the Fathers. Being that the angels were created before the creation of the material cosmos, I wonder if this may be an attributable factor. God alone is Uncreated- the angles and the cosmos are not. In this, there is a commonality. So my wonder is, is there a connection between the point of creation of the material world and the fixed dispositions of the immaterial spiritual powers (i.e. angels)? Did the introduction of time in this plane of existence somehow affect or even possible limit the spiritual powers? Okay, now my head hurts...

In Christ,
Antonios

[Kornelius]

Please refer to the next post!

[Kornelius]

So with regard to the linkage that St. John makes between the possibility of repentance and corporeality it occurs to me that this "faculty" could presumably serve as a means of repentance for fallen angels either now (less likely) or in the age to come (safer). Thus if a fallen angel is willing by "possessing" a humble wise and holy someone who is willing to receive them then with that person serving as kind of "abbot" might not his body function as a "monastery" that would allow demons access to the corporality without which they cannot repent.

It seems to me from what you are saying, that you believe that fallen angels are at a disadvantage when it comes to repentance vis-a-vis humans by virtue of being incorporeal. Hence, you suggest for a possession to take place, with the corporal being of the saint being the channel toward their repentance. I will assume that this is what you believe and continue with my comment accordingly.

First of all my friend, incorporeity or lack thereof have nothing to do with repentance. Whether one has a corporal or incorporal existence, repentance is independant of either one, for it belongs to the spiritual realm, which brings us to the realization that we humans are indeed at a disadvatage vis-a-vis angels, for they are not bound to visible symbols in knowing God and participating in Him.

Dionysius the Aeropagate stated:

"Compared with the things that merely are, with irrational forms of life and indeed with our own rational natures, the holy ranks of heavenly beings are obviously superior in what they have received of God's largess. Their thinking processes imitate the divine. They look on the divine likeness with a transcendent eye. They model their intellects on Him. Hence it is natural for them to enter into a more generous communion with the Deity because they are forever marching toward the heights, because, as permitted, they are drawn to a concetration of an unfailing love for God, because they immaterially receive undiluted the original enlightenment, and because, ordered by such enlightenment, theirs is a life of total intelligence."

As you may see, the Aeropagate speaks of the two different modes of knowing God; for the angels is a direct knowledge, a comunication between spirit and spirit, whereas for us humans revelation happens by means of sensible forms. In other words, the angels, not only the holy resplendant ones, but also the fallen ones - since that time which is older than the creation of the world, a time of which St. Basil spoke of as supra-temporal, aeonic, eternal (yet not co-eternal with God) - have been in a special spiritual communion with God. Repentance although not yet necessary "activated" at the time before the angelic fall, it was potentially intrinsic part of the spiritual realm within the infinite wisdom of God. Who more than angels - who commune spirit to spirit with God - can have access to this spiritual virtue (repentance)!

Certainly, according to many holy fathers, Man still has a more privileged position overall, for God became human not angel, and He will sit on His throne in eternity having both the divine and human nature. Furthermore, angels were created to be ruled by the Creator, whereas Man was created to rule over the creation.

Finally, in light of the previously mentioned privileged position certain fathers attribute to Man, let us assume for the sake of argument, that incorporeity puts fallen angels at a disadvantage, i.e., when it comes to repenting. Saint Basil the Great speaks of a most "subtle" body belonging to the angels, that lets them perceive and influence the material world. Therefore, either way, the fallen angels have no excuse for not repenting that is linked to their existential being. The real reasons as St. Basil explains are: freedom of will, life of free choice, yet choosing alienation from God and pride, which cultivated an evil second nature in them.


With regard to the question of immateriality and changeableness, if angels being immaterial are somehow "fixed" in their dispositions, how then does one account for the fall of some of them in the first place?


Because that was their test.

The angels were not somehow "fixed" in their dispositions prior to the angelic fall. The holy angels, however, are forever fixed in their disposition, for as Nina says at the moment when they showed their steadfastness with Archangel Michael, that moment, the decision taken at that very moment was their test. Perhaps Nina's concise language caused confusion in the understanding of her response, but patristically she is correct.

[Robert Hegwood]

First of all my friend, incorporeity or lack thereof have nothing to do with repentance.

Well this is part of what is in question since a previous poster quoted St. John of Damascus on just this point. My comments were a speculation predicated provisionally on the truth of St. John's statements...or at least his statements as presented and interpreted by the poster.

As for believing in a fallen angel needing to "possess" (with permission) someone in order to effect its own repentance...I do not believe this, but I have wondered about it especially in the light of what St. John says about repentance and incorporality and in light of the naked fact that in certain circumstances both men and beasts may be possess and wonder what this "capacity" both to possess or be possessed is. Granted when evil spirits are involved it is something perverse...but a thing perverted is only something created good put to an improper use....which raises the question what is the "right use" of the ability...why does it exist at all?

[Sean M.]

Well this is part of what is in question since a previous poster quoted St. John of Damascus on just this point. My comments were a speculation predicated provisionally on the truth of St. John's statements...or at least his statements as presented and interpreted by the poster.

As for believing in a fallen angel needing to "possess" (with permission) someone in order to effect its own repentance...I do not believe this, but I have wondered about it especially in the light of what St. John says about repentance and incorporality and in light of the naked fact that in certain circumstances both men and beasts may be possess and wonder what this "capacity" both to possess or be possessed is. Granted when evil spirits are involved it is something perverse...but a thing perverted is only something created good put to an improper use....which raises the question what is the "right use" of the ability...why does it exist at all?

Evil will often try and be the counterfeit of good. If it is Gods intention that our bodies should be indwelt with the Holy Spirit, then the opposite of this would be that evil wants our bodies to be possessed by a perverse spirit.

[Matthew Namee]

With regard to the question of immateriality and changeableness, if angels being immaterial are somehow "fixed" in their dispositions, how then does one account for the fall of some of them in the first place?
This is the question which always bothered me, and I don't know the answer. I do think it is important to remember that angels are "immaterial" only relative to us humans. They are still "material" when compared to God. They are not omnipresent, meaning they are bound to a certain degree by space (as is evidenced, for example, in the Book of Daniel). I think the best attempt to describe the physical nature of the angels is actually in a work of fiction, Out of the Silent Planet by C.S. Lewis (the first book of the Space Trilogy). I know this isn't Orthodox, etc., etc., but he basically describes these beings as having bodies far more subtle than human bodies, so much so that relative to us they are "spiritual." Nevertheless, they are in fact material. I think this is consistent with the Orthodox understanding, as only God is "pure spirit."

As for the repentance of the fallen angels, I think it is a subject best left alone. They are so, so different from humans. They are not just "bodiless spirits"; they are another sort of being entirely. We're talking about non-human sin and repentance. I'm content to say, "I have no idea," and leave it to God. Though I know that's a cop-out in this context, since it's not an answer at all.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The above comments are quite correct. St John of Damascus makes the point that when we speak of the immaterial powers we do not mean this immateriality in the sense of God's immateriality. Rather we mean it in a relative sense as being created and of having substance although being much more refined than our material nature is.

As already point out on the Forum, for the Fathers, the inability of the bodiless powers to repent is connected to their immaterial nature. This does not mean that they are absolutely unchangable in nature but it does mean that the focus of their desire & will is much more static -even if it is on something evil- than ours is.

This I think gives us a glimpse that even though instability is a reflection of falleness, change in itself also reflects a deeper dynamic of creation which man chiefly reflects as a faculty of free choice. Through free choice man relates to the God given & essential dynamic of the universe in a way other creatures cannot do or perceive. Although it can be turned to the worse it is through this faculty that man is shown to be God-created.

So we see then how man stands uniquely as microcosm created to redeem the universe through the grace of Christ through the power of free choice.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Kornelius]

Well this is part of what is in question since a previous poster quoted St. John of Damascus on just this point. My comments were a speculation predicated provisionally on the truth of St. John's statements...or at least his statements as presented and interpreted by the poster.

I am not sure that we are getting the same message from St. John Damaskinos. In Book 2 of the Orthodox Faith, St. John makes it clear that there is nothing unchangeable in their disposition. He says:


"So the angel, is of a nature which is rational, intelligent, free, and variable in judgment, that is, subject to voluntary change. It is only the Uncreated which is unchangeable." Emphasis is mine

In other words, if the fallen angels want to repent, there is nothing in their nature that can prevent them. As the saint says, their nature is subject to voluntary change. Hence, their incorporeity does not affect their return or their repentance; what prevents them is their choice stemming from pride.

If we accept such tenet, however, we might as well assume that the holy angels after the angelic fall, are still subject to voluntary change, i.e., they may choose evil too. While that is true, we know that due to their decision and stedfastness to God at the moment of fall, they received from God a unique grace, a consolidation in the good, that makes them infallible in the ages to come. (To my knowledge this unique grace is not mentioned by St. John of Damascus in The Orthodox Faith).

While St. John speaks of angelic nature as subject to voluntary change, further down in his book he compares - in what seems at first glance to be a contradiction - the fall of angels to what death is to men. He says:


"One should note that the fall is to the angels just what death is to men. For, just as there is no repentance for men after their death, so is there none for the angels after their fall."

In order to reconcile this "contradiction" one must realize that St. John is speaking rather prophetically about the destiny of the fallen angels. In their hypostasized nature they will always until the Second Coming, have the opportunity to repent. They could potentially use their ability of voluntary change at any time, if they want to. God is Infinitely Merciful and will receive everyone one with open arms. The Devil, however, out of free choice has embraced a second nature, not the full, hypostasized one given to him by God; and the fathers of the church prophetically know his ultimate choice. Again, he is doomed not by nature, but by choice. Our God is a Just God, and He would never create something that intrinsically lacks the ability (in our case due to incorporeity) for redemption.

I mentioned in my previous post that there are fathers of the church who believe that angels being spirits (although not purely spiritual as God) have an advantage in understanding spiritual virtues, whereas others believe that Man has the advantage for reasons I listed above.


Certainly, according to many holy fathers, Man still has a more privileged position overall, for God became human not angel, and He will sit on His throne in eternity having both the divine and human nature. Furthermore, angels were created to be ruled by the Creator, whereas Man was created to rule over the creation.

There is truth in both, but since in this thread the focus is more on the advatages of corporeity, I would like to say that it is true that having a corporeal body can be very beneficial. Every physical pain, illness or affliction does provide a softening of the soul, a spiritual awakening which prepares a background for repentance, something the angels can't experince in similar terms. Nonetheless, angels may commune with God through fascinating spiritual levels, due to their nature.


Originally posted by Robert Hegwood.
As for believing in a fallen angel needing to "possess" (with permission) someone in order to effect its own repentance...I do not believe this, but I have wondered about it especially in the light of what St. John says about repentance and incorporality and in light of the naked fact that in certain circumstances both men and beasts may be possess and wonder what this "capacity" both to possess or be possessed is. Granted when evil spirits are involved it is something perverse...but a thing perverted is only something created good put to an improper use....which raises the question what is the "right use" of the ability...why does it exist at all?

Dwelling happens in both case of good and evil angels, however, holy angels dwell only in good souls, whereas evil ones dwells only in evil souls.

In Book 2 of his The Experience of God - Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, Dumitru Staniloae explains clearly:


"If it is true that good angels can dwell permanently in bodies kept under control and particularly in good souls with their pure minds, then evil spirits are even more solidly at home in bodies ravaged by impulses of the passions both in the lower parts and also in minds that are framing malign thoughts."

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Kornelius,

I rather suspect you're attempting to forge too definitive a dichotomy between materiality either wholly affecting an ability to change, or not affecting it at all. Given such a dichotomy, quotations from the fathers could be used to support either.

In reality, the patristic heritage seems to speak in somewhat less definitive terms. Clearly the incorporeality of the angels (which, as has been rightly noted, is not the same as the utter incorporeality of God; but which is a genuine incorporeality all the same) does not mean they have no ability to change at all; were this the case, then Robert's good question would have no possible answer. On the other hand, it is not right to say that incorporeality has nothing to do with mutability, and thus the hazards of sin and possibilities of repentance. Numerous fathers speak directly to this (I mentioned a bit earlier Irenaeus of Lyons, who discusses it explicitly).

One thing that I am fairly certain about (though always open to being pointed towards patristic texts to challenge it) is that the fathers don't generally speak in terms of the distinction between humanity's changeability (vis-a-vis repentance) and the angels' stability (either in sin or in holiness) residing in a specific type of test given them, which has been posited in this thread. I should be very grateful for any patristic evidence to support this kind of thought.

Back to the matter at hand, the relationship of materiality to change shouldn't be reduced simply to the question of repentance / non-repentance. In other words, it's not only a question of an ability to repent. Patristic commentary on the question focuses more holistically on the whole nature of beings: humanity, in its materiality, is deeply influenced by the mutability of material created nature (in a way that angels are not, given that they, whilst still created, are not material). This means that humanity's experience of life -- including temptations, responses to temptations, and movements towards repentance -- are bound up in what many fathers call the 'inherent instability' of material nature. An angel, by terms of many of the same fathers, is not bound up in the same type of instability (though it has challenges of its own), and this is the distinction forged between the categories.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Sean M.]

Dwelling happens in both case of good and evil angels, however, holy angels dwell only in good souls, whereas evil ones dwells only in evil souls.

That is not the impression i got from the quote you posted, granted people ravaged by impulses might be easier for for a demon to possess, but people who may be struggling with certain impulses are not neccesarily evil souls.

[Victor Mihailoff]

[quote=Robert Hegwood;59982]With regard to the question of immateriality and changeableness, if angels being immaterial are somehow "fixed" in their dispositions, how then does one account for the fall of some of them in the first place?

Their position is fixed but it was not so before the angelic fall. God fixed their positions after the angelic war was fought; demons remain demons and angels remain angels much like if you complete a final exam and some students fail while others graduate. People can repeat a course or re-sit an exam but God knows the inner workings of all His creatures.

God knows the demons through pride, are set in their ways and hate Him more than they resented Him before their fall, whereas the angels passed their test and are permanently deserving of their reward as humans too will be if they pass the test of faith in their lives and acquire citizenship in heaven. The angels love God more now than before the angelic fall seeing God has revealed more of Himself, His beauty, His love for His creatures, His virtues, His kindness and generosity etc., since the fall.

[Victor Mihailoff]

First of all my friend, incorporeity or lack thereof have nothing to do with repentance. Whether one has a corporal or incorporal existence, repentance is independant of either one, for it belongs to the spiritual realm, which brings us to the realization that we humans are indeed at a disadvatage vis-a-vis angels, for they are not bound to visible symbols in knowing God and participating in Him.


Demons enjoy passions through human experiences of them. Demons can possess some humans and entice them to sin and can stay close to humans when they sin to get their high from the human high. Much like when a tuning fork is placed next to another and the one is struck to produce a note, then the other also vibrates.

When demons possess a person and entice him to, for example, drink huge quantities of alcoholic beverage, the demon enjoys the drunken state but withdraws from the human when the hangover arrives. The demon returns when the human feels better and again entices him to drink. So the human suffers for his transgression in this life through his physical body but the demon avoids suffering for sin until after the judgement day. Suffering encourages repentance. The human body is the means to human suffering. So, yes, repentance is tied in with corporeality.

About 26 or 27 years ago I read a newspaper story about two young brothers who killed an elderly woman next door. The woman was in her 80s and bedridden with illness. A good Samaritan neighbour visited her daily to tend to her needs. She left the front door open so the old woman could call out if she needed something.

Two little brothers next door came into her house and bashed her head in with a brick. She died. The boys were something like four and three years old and no doubt watched cartoons in which one character hits another on the head with a brick. Then a lump forms and pretty little birds sing and circle the lump. A minute later the victim is back on his feet and running away.

Those boys received no punishment from the law because they were below the age of responsible reason. They did not really know what they were doing. If they were thirty years older, they would have felt the full weight of the law. The authorities did not record a charge against the boys and the parents were advised to never tell them what they did when they get older. The boys had time to change their ways and were not yet mature enough to be fully responsible for their actions.

Humans on earth are not yet matured to what they can be in heaven. Angels, on the other hand are very intelligent beings who have a mature knowledge of good and evil. They dwell in the presence of the Most High God. We turn away from God in our lives a number of times and then can learn that this is wrong through the suffering that follows our actions. Demons turned away from God once as angels with much greater intelligence, wisdom and knowledge than we have as physical, corruptible creatures. They were in the presence of God and chose not to be.

We often ignorantly separate ourselves from God as did Adam and Eve, and then the suffering comes after which we can feel the need to repent. After repenting, we can return to God. Fallen angels on the other hand, knowingly turned away from God, turned to man and began leading him down the same path as an act of revenge against God and an act of jealousy towards man. Repent? The fallen angels have not begun to end their sinning. They are heading deeper and deeper into hell fire knowingly. Their evil character is such that they no longer want God near them at all. They hate Him and us. We can wake up to ourselves, mature in a good way and approach God. They cannot. Just like a falling stone cannot of itself change course and rise again to its former state of rest on a table, so too the demons cannot repent of there own free will. They have acquired momentum in their never ending fall. They have not yet stopped falling. We fall a little and get back up again, they're still falling profoundly.

The demons will begin their real suffering in hell. remember Legion in the bible? Those thousands of demons in that poor possessed man feared that Christ would send them to hell (hades, the deep) before their time. They loved sinning so much within a physical body of flesh (for they have not one of their own) that they would rather enter the bodies of pigs than go to hell before the time.

The fact that demons cannot repent, is not a matter of God's witholding permission from them. They cannot repent because of what they have allowed themselves to become. There are people who cannot repent also. "I say unto you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven of men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or the age to come" Matt. 12:31,32. This blasphemy is willful hardness of heart. It attributes the saving action of the Spitit to Satan and refuses to accept God's forgiveness and mercy. (Pg 35, "The Orthodox Study Bible - New testament and Psalms". That's why demons can't repent and why even some humans can't repent, they have become demon like in their relationship with God.

You see, the angels already had God with them abundantly in heaven and they chose to be without Him. If a person sins against the Holy Spirit, that person already had God abundantly in their life and chose to be cast himself away from Him, like the fallen angels did. Whereas, the 'fallen - human - nature - man and woman' was simply seduced by the devil and foolishly tried out his advice before having knowledge of evil. For that knowledge came with the transgression of eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which came after and was the fulfillment of Satan's advice. That kind of person can repent after sufferring and then regretting their sin, return humbly to God asking His forgiveness. Most people with their bodies can repent; all bodiless demons cannot.

[Andreas Moran]

According to St Anatoly of Optina, the devil and his demons cannot repent because they are too proud to ask for forgiveness. Just as there must be both offer and acceptance to make a contract, so forgiveness, which God freely offers to all, can only have effect if it is accepted in repentantance. The devil and the demons are so hardened in pride that they cannot have that repentance which would enable them to accept God's forgiveness. God preserve us from allowing our hearts to become so hardened by sin that we go a sin too far, as St Theophan the Recluse suggests, and we forfeit the grace of repentance.

[M.C. Steenberg]

A few of the more recent posts in this thread seem to have been made without having read the discussion above, as they simply restate early points with no note of the discussion that's been taking place around them.

[M. Partyka]

Just wanted to throw in a couple more statements from St. John of Damascus that I haven't seen mentioned yet:


With difficulty [the angels] are moved to evil, yet they are not absolutely immoveable: but now they are altogether immoveable, not by nature but by grace and by their nearness to the Only Good....



For through his incorruption the devil, when he had fallen as the result of his own free choice, was firmly established in wickedness, so that there was no room for repentance and no hope of change: just as, moreover, the angels also, when they had made free choice of virtue became through grace immoveably rooted in goodness.

[Kusanagi]

Just wanted to add this story that I came across recently from Fr Cleopa.

At a women's monastery in Romania, one nun had the job of ringing the bells to notify the other sisters when to pray. Now there was a demon which would interfere by ringing the bells out of the scheduled times. The abbess and the other sisters would become angry with the nun responsible for ringing the bells. But the nun never said its wasn't me or anything but she took it all with humility. She decided to one night to make an investigation to see which sister was ringing the bells before the appointed times. She waited and found it was a demon ringing the bell, she saw the demon standing by the window with one foot in the bell tower and one on the edge of the window. The nun cried out "By the Power of Christ you are bound!" The demon froze on the spot. the nun went and called the abbess and the council of nuns first and then later the rest of the nuns. They were all horrified to see a demon there and was scared. The demon of course wanted to be released but the nun that bound her said I will let you go on one condition that you chant Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal like you used to do before the fall. The demon replied that it was impossible to chant such a song without them melting. The nun said thats fine we can melt but you are not allowed to leave without chanting that first or do I have to burn you with the Power of the Cross? The demon gave way and chanted the hymn and all the nuns were crying as it was very beautiful. At that moment the demon became an angel of light and ascended into heaven.