Lavish churches instead of poor - living and spreading the Gospel

[Justin Farr]

Hrm. Bad thread title, and this might be in the wrong section, sorry. I looked everywhere. :P

Why is it that Orthodox churches are so lavishly decorated? Hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on decor, icons, gold, etc. This confuses me. Why not just a few simple icons, a "poor" church, and all the proceeds actually going to the poor and needy? How does decorating the church lavishly help those in need?

Thanks!

~justin

[Father David Moser]

Why is it that Orthodox churches are so lavishly decorated? Hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on decor, icons, gold, etc. This confuses me. Why not just a few simple icons, a "poor" church, and all the proceeds actually going to the poor and needy? How does decorating the church lavishly help those in need?


It doesn't - at least not directly. The Church building itself is an icon of heaven and when we stand in it, we are transported from here to there. I am the founding priest of my parish - the building was formerly a JW Kingdom hall - no adornment at all. In the beginning, it was like we were praying in someone's living room. Over the years we have done a lot of work on the interior of the temple and it is now a very beautiful little Church. It is much easier, when praying, to be moved in spirit into the Kingdom of Heaven. This allows the prayer to be much deeper and much more heartfelt. Does this help the poor ? Not directly, but as we all are filled more and more with the grace of the Holy Spirit (which is accomplished primarily by our prayers) then we each care for the poor more and more. So indirectly, a beautiful temple does help the poor.

Fr David Moser

[Mourad Mankarios]

Hrm. Bad thread title, and this might be in the wrong section, sorry. I looked everywhere. :P

Why is it that Orthodox churches are so lavishly decorated? Hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on decor, icons, gold, etc. This confuses me. Why not just a few simple icons, a "poor" church, and all the proceeds actually going to the poor and needy? How does decorating the church lavishly help those in need?

Thanks!

~justin

I believe that this is historically possibly due to the influence of the Christianisation of the Roman Empire, with the pomp and ceremony of the Roman Court influencing the church, as emperors spent lavishly on churches seeking the protection now of the new Christian God rather than the sacrifices and temples that were previously dedicated to the pagan gods.

[Olga]

Consider a line from one of the psalms which is part of the Prayer before the Ambon, read or recited by the priest during the Divine Liturgy: Sanctify those who love the beauty of Your house ...

While overripe baroque and other excessive ornamentation which are contrary to the gravitas and prayerful atmosphere of a church are rightly to be frowned upon, and where lavish appointments are provided as a way of drawing attention to the donor's munificence, I agree that there should be some restraint.

However, should not the best of what God has created be used and given to glorify Him? Churches are "the works of our hands", from the building itself, to the icons (mural and portable), the iconostasis, the sacred vessels and objects on and around the altar, right down to the fresh (never artificial!) flowers brought to church to decorate it.

[Paul Cowan]

Matthew 26:6 And when Jesus was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper, 7 a woman came to Him having an alabaster flask of very costly fragrant oil, and she poured it on His head as He sat at the table. 8 But when His disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, “Why this waste? 9 For this fragrant oil might have been sold for much and given to the poor.”
10 But when Jesus was aware of it, He said to them, “Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. 11 For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. 12 For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial. 13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her.”

[Kosta]

As Christ said, the poor you will have with you always. Each christian community can donate money for various projects which tend to span ,years, decades and even centuries.

It is false to believe that the existence of the local church is for the purpose of subsidizing the poor. The Church is the place where people with a unity of faith come together and worship God, it is the gathering place of the elect to celebrate the Lord's Supper, not a charity organization to make the Lord's Supper synonymous with a soup kitchen.
The church is the local community of believers and is meant to serve the spiritual needs of Her faithful not the material needs of what ails the world.

[RichardWorthington]

Matthew 26:6 And when Jesus was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper, 7 a woman came to Him having an alabaster flask of very costly fragrant oil, and she poured it on His head as He sat at the table. 8 But when His disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, “Why this waste? 9 For this fragrant oil might have been sold for much and given to the poor.”
10 But when Jesus was aware of it, He said to them, “Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. 11 For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. 12 For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial. 13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her.”

"Wisdom. Stand aright. Let us listen to the holy gospel" :)

Additionally, I love to see all the beautiful churches when in Russia or Ukraine. I think of them as "palaces of the people": instead of having such wealth and beauty spend on royalty or 'democratic institutions'(!), it is there for the everyday people to enjoy, including the poor.

Let the poor be helped, but it is not only those who are materially poor who are included in this.

Richard

[Effie Ganatsios]

As Christ said, the poor you will have with you always. Each christian community can donate money for various projects which tend to span ,years, decades and even centuries.

It is false to believe that the existence of the local church is for the purpose of subsidizing the poor. The Church is the place where people with a unity of faith come together and worship God, it is the gathering place of the elect to celebrate the Lord's Supper, not a charity organization to make the Lord's Supper synonymous with a soup kitchen.
The church is the local community of believers and is meant to serve the spiritual needs of Her faithful not the material needs of what ails the world.

Kosta, don't forget what St. Chrysostom said about the riches within and the poverty outside. "On one occasion, he sold the golden chalices in order to give the proceeds to the poor. He declared, "You make golden vessels, but Christ himself is starving. You make golden chalices, but fail to offer cups of cold water to the needy. Christ, as a homeless stranger, is wandering around and begging, and instead of receiving Him you make decorations."

Richard's question is one that has always worried me. Why is so much money spent on new churches, renovated churches, and very, very expensive frescoes, etc. Yes, we need beauty but some people go way too far. Our church, St. Demetrius is being renovated after a fire that occurred a few years ago. It looks beautiful but the amount of money that has been spent is astronomical. One example of useless overspending : This church is the oldest in our city, in fact it was once a monastery hidden in our once vast forests to protect people from the Turks. It still has it's own grounds and beautiful stonework boundaries have been recently built. There is also a very impressive entrance to the grounds built with this same stone. On top of the entrance a huge cupola has been placed. This cupola is of copper - extremely expensive. Did no-one think of who was going to climb up and clean the copper? It is now an interesting dull light tan colour, and looks like cheap tin that has rusted! It has become an eyesore.

Churches can be beautiful without all these extremely expensive extra decorations that are used. Has no-one heard that less is more. Father Averky once posted a picture of his church. It was simple and very beautiful. I have seen older churches that are not as over decorated as the newer ones. They look a lot better in my opinion.

[Effie Ganatsios]

While overripe baroque and other excessive ornamentation which are contrary to the gravitas and prayerful atmosphere of a church are rightly to be frowned upon, and where lavish appointments are provided as a way of drawing attention to the donor's munificence, I agree that there should be some restraint.

However, should not the best of what God has created be used and given to glorify Him? Churches are "the works of our hands", from the building itself, to the icons (mural and portable), the iconostasis, the sacred vessels and objects on and around the altar, right down to the fresh (never artificial!) flowers brought to church to decorate it.

Yes, I would agree with the above. It is the excesses that bother me. And the way expensive methods have replaced those of the past. An example : The women of the church used to decorate the epitaphio, the last 3 years this job has been given to professional florists using the money people give to the church for the poor.

[Olga]

\The women of the church used to decorate the epitaphio, the last 3 years this job has been given to professional florists using the money people give to the church for the poor.

How sad. I have no objection to a church obtaining flowers from a florist or flower market at the times of the year when people's gardens may not be enough or even bare (such as for the Epitaphios/Plaschanitsa,or Easter). A Greek epitaphios requires a LOT of flowers. Yet it would still be the parish faithful who would set up the flowers.

How sad and ironic that what used to be the works of the hands of the parish philoptokhos (the women's auxiliary, literally the friends of the poor), has now been passed over to a commercial interest. Not good.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Olga, in the villages the women still decorate the epitaphio but here things have changed. Little by little, these wonderful old traditions are being done away with, all in the name of what? Pride? Thinking that professionals do a better job than us? Not taking pride in things that we make ourselves using our own hands and not paying someone else to do it? We have become so false. One saying I have always loved is : your thoughts on God but your hands on the plough. Work, work, work while, all the time, praising God.

Is sitting in front of a computer work?????????????

Effie

[Mourad Mankarios]

It seems somewhat antithetical to me that the church would call its parishioners to a life of poverty, worldly detachment and lowliness while it adorns itself with all the trappings of the world.

I think clean, neat and beautiful presentation is important but all within limits especially when it comes to the use of expensive materials such as gold, silver and marble and special structures such as domes and pillars.

If historically the church could do such things maybe it was so because they were funded by extremely wealthy emperors, princes and kings who were perhaps somewhat misguided in their approach to religion. We know of saints even who sold the gold of the church during paricularly difficult times in order to support those in need. Obviously, here we have the true example of were the real priority lies.


Don't Adorn the Church
But Ignore the Poor

St. John Chrysostom
Early Church Father and Doctor of the Church


This excerpt from a homily by St. John Chrysostom on the Gospel of Matthew (Hom. 50, 3-4, PG 58, 508-509) warns against adorning the Church building at the expense of caring for the suffering members of Christ's body, the Church in the truest sense. It is used in the Roman office of readings for Saturday of the 21st week in Ordinary time, with the accompanying biblical reading taken from Jeremiah 7:1-20.

Do you want to honor Christ’s body? Then do not scorn him in his nakedness, nor honor him here in the church with silken garments while neglecting him outside where he is cold and naked. For he who said: This is my body, and made it so by his words, also said: "You saw me hungry and did not feed me, and inasmuch as you did not do it for one of these, the least of my brothers, you did not do it for me." (Mat 25:34ff) What we do here in the church requires a pure heart, not special garments; what we do outside requires great dedication.

Let us learn, therefore, to be men of wisdom and to honor Christ as he desires. For a person being honoured finds greatest pleasure in the honor he desires, not in the honor we think best. Peter thought he was honoring Christ when he refused to let him wash his feet; but what Peter wanted was not truly an honour, quite the opposite! Give him the honour prescribed in his law by giving your riches to the poor. For God does not want golden vessels but golden hearts.

Now, in saying this I am not forbidding you to make such gifts; I am only demanding that along with such gifts and before them you give alms. He accepts the former, but he is much more pleased with the latter. In the former, only the giver profits; in the latter, the recipient does too. A gift to the church may be taken as a form of ostentation, but an alms is pure kindness. Of what use is it to weigh down Christ’s table with golden cups, when he himself is dying of hunger? First, fill him when he is hungry; then use the means you have left to adorn his table. Will you have a golden cup made but not give a cup of water? What is the use of providing the table with cloths woven of gold thread, and not providing Christ himself with the clothes he needs? What profit is there in that? Tell me: If you were to see him lacking the necessary food but were to leave him in that state and merely surround his table with gold would he be grateful to you or rather would he not be angry? What if you were to see him clad in worn-out rags and stiff from the cold, and were to forget about clothing him and instead were to set up golden columns for him, saying that you were doing it in his honour? Would he not think he was being mocked and greatly insulted?

Apply this also to Christ when he comes along the roads as a pilgrim, looking for shelter. You do not take him in as your guest, but you decorate floor and walls and the capitals of the pillars. You provide silver chains for the lamps, but you cannot bear even to look at him as he lies chained in prison. Once again, I am not forbidding you to supply these adornments; I am urging you to provide these other things as well, and indeed to provide them first. No one has ever been accused for not providing ornaments, but for those who neglect their neighbour a hell awaits with an inextinguishable fire and torment in the company of the demons. Do not, therefore, adorn the church and ignore your afflicted brother, for he is the most precious temple of all.

[Olga]

Dear Mourad

I appreciate your comments, but may I offer the following: The church which I have been attending for over ten years was built using largely voluntary labour provided mainly on weekends, with funds raised through the tireless efforts of a small community, which included my husband's grandmother (who was the head of the women's auxiliary for many years). Money and resouces were not abundant, yet the church that was built nearly forty years ago was not only faithful to traditional architectural form of earlier centuries (to my knowledge, it is the only Orthodox church in a city of a million inhabitants and at least two dozen Orthodox churches which faces east), but, with the completion of the internal iconography about 12 years ago, has become arguably the most beautiful Orthodox church in this city, and one of the very best in Australia.

Why? Because it was built with LOVE.

[Mourad Mankarios]

Dear Mourad

I appreciate your comments, but may I offer the following: The church which I have been attending for over ten years was built using largely voluntary labour provided mainly on weekends, with funds raised through the tireless efforts of a small community, which included my husband's grandmother (who was the head of the women's auxiliary for many years). Money and resouces were not abundant, yet the church that was built nearly forty years ago was not only faithful to traditional architectural form of earlier centuries (to my knowledge, it is the only Orthodox church in a city of a million inhabitants and at least two dozen Orthodox churches which faces east), but, with the completion of the internal iconography about 12 years ago, has become arguably the most beautiful Orthodox church in this city, and one of the very best in Australia.

Why? Because it was built with LOVE.


Dear Olga,

I am not advocating that our churches should be bland and tasteless, I too would very much love a church that is beautifully adorned according to Orthodox tradition. However, in the spirit of our great father St John Chrysostom, as quoted above, I would be disappointed with extravagant measures in building a structure which is supposed to represent service to the poor and needy.

The matter which I believe is even more problematic is that such churches so extravagantly and lavishly built are actually a scandal to many of the faithful and especially to the seculars and non-believers - it simply does not portray the picture of the church that it should. How many times have you heard people discuss in frustration how rich the pope is and how much property and possessions the church has? Don't forget that the original reformation was partially as a result of the church being so lavish and extravagant - in doing so it created a gulf between the poor peasant and the rich church and perhaps too the poor Christ, born humbly and lowly in a manger.

[Andreas Moran]

As in all things there is a middle way, and I for one do not like to see a lot of gold leaf in restored churches and I can't stand those ornate baroque iconostates. On the other we are not Methodists! Church decoration should serve its proper purpose which is to create a house of prayer, a suitable setting for the conduct of divine services. But the real 'test' of a church for me is what grace you feel in it. Grace is not, I think, likely to linger in a place of over-ostentation. St Nil Sorsky quoted from St John Chrysostom in his Rule and said that no one had ever been condemned for not decorating a church. His view did not prevail against that of St Joseph Volotsky whose own views - on church decoration, not the execution of heretics! - seems to prevail today in Russia. But in spiritual literature, one is more likely to come across the writings of St Nil than St Joseph. Staretz Lavrentii (+1950) did say that in the last days there would be gilded cupolas and splendid decorations in cathedrals and churches but there would be no grace in them.

[Rick H.]

As in all things there is a middle way . . Grace is not, I think, likely to linger in a place of over-ostentation . . . Staretz Lavrentii (+1950) did say that in the last days there would be gilded cupolas and splendid decorations in cathedrals and churches but there would be no grace in them.



Yes, a 'middle way,' and as it relates to over-ostentation and grace, this sounds right.

In Christ,
Rick

[Herman Blaydoe]

I suppose this thread does not apply to my parish, but I cannot help but be somewhat amused. We are celebrating in a converted two-car garage that is woefully inadequate for our numbers. We are trying to build a more fitting and accomodating ediface suitable to be called "God's House" but the sloughing through the local county bureaucracy has been challenging at best. I doubt we will have gilded anything and the word "lavish" is banned from the budget, but the lack of a true "House of God" is really impacting our ability to accomodate new members. And yet we manage to support the local crisis pregnancy center and provide periodic support to various orphanages, sponsor a seminary student, and contribute to various charities as we can.

We offer to God our first fruits and our best. If all we can do is help others, then that is (I suspect) acceptable, but if we can do more, like build a House of God that helps to inspire our worship and bring others to Him, I don't think God is displeased.

[Andreas Moran]

We are celebrating in a converted two-car garage


I doubt we will have gilded anything

Sounds good! One of the most grace-filled places I know is St John's chapel at the monastery here in Essex. It is a converted living room in an old house. But Elder Sophrony officiated the Divine Liturgy there for years and it has acquired a wonderful 'patina' of grace.

[Mourad Mankarios]

One of the greatest saints of the Coptic church of the 20th century used to celebrate liturgy daily in an old abandoned windmill and when he was elected to be patriarch during all of the pomp and ceremony of the official ordination and enthronement he leaned over to his personal deacon and told him all of this does not compare to one day in the windmill.

[Nina]

There is this saying of a Father which I am paraphrasing: "Panagia does not want adorned chandeliers but wants us to feed the poor." However on the other side we have to give to God too. It is like a sign of gratitude to Him Who adorned the Creation and gave it to us. Plus these churches are for all generations and not only one. There is so much money in the world that is enough to have beautiful churches and feed the poor.

[Kypreos]

The community creates the Church. If the community has wealthy benefactors willing to donate their money to glorify Gods Church, then why is that a problem?

If a rich person were to donate a million dollars for the church in Herman's parish, and you in turn take that million and donate it to various social services, will that person donate anymore? But if you take that million and build a church, it will be a pillar for that community for generations and generations.

I don't think these benefactors, past or present, are misguided in their approach to religion. Would Hagia Sophia ever been built if Church leaders had that attitude?

Lets no pretend that people are starving to death in front of our Orthodox Churchs, and the priests are choosing to adorn the Churches in gold instead of feeding them. And if people are starving to death then I have faith that our priests will sell gold to feed them.

[Kypreos]

The Church doesn't drain money from the community. It reflects/compliments the wealth of the community. If Church members are making millions of dollars a year in their professions, some of that money will get donated to the Church.

I just don't see the competing side of it. I don't see the Church vs. Poor money battle.

Wealthy neighborhoods have lavishly decorated Churches. Poorer neighborhoods lack gold and other such fringes. God is in both.

[Silouan Howard]

Its interesting that people, not you Justin, but others as well can question why the temples where the body and blood of Christ is made present are adorned apropriately for the King of Kings. But, why is it that we never question why people so lavishly decorate their homes and their bodies? And what good is it to adorn the corruptible body with luxury and neglect the house of the incorruptible and glorious Lord? I also would like to know if the individuals who are so concerned about the poor and hungry are actually doing something about it? Are they melting down the gold they wear on the ears, neck and fingers and giving it to the poor? Are they selling their name brand clothing and choosing a more economical brand in order to save money for charity? This list could continue, but I think the point is made. Didn't St. John Chrysostom teach that what man takes in excess for himself, he is stealing it from the poor?

Forgive me, I am the biggest hypocrite.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Don't Adorn the Church
But Ignore the Poor


St. John Chrysostom
Early Church Father and Doctor of the Church



This excerpt from a homily by St. John Chrysostom ...


Mourad, this is what I remembered St. Chrysostom as saying, but I couldn't find the exact text yesterday. Thank you for posting it.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

The community creates the Church. If the community has wealthy benefactors willing to donate their money to glorify Gods Church, then why is that a problem?

If a rich person were to donate a million dollars for the church in Herman's parish, and you in turn take that million and donate it to various social services, will that person donate anymore? But if you take that million and build a church, it will be a pillar for that community for generations and generations.

I don't think these benefactors, past or present, are misguided in their approach to religion. Would Hagia Sophia ever been built if Church leaders had that attitude?

Lets no pretend that people are starving to death in front of our Orthodox Churchs, and the priests are choosing to adorn the Churches in gold instead of feeding them. And if people are starving to death then I have faith that our priests will sell gold to feed them.

Kypreos, I can only contribute what I know from experience. In the past people here left blocks of land and money to the church with the provision that they be used for the benefit of the faithful. One example is a large block of land opposite one of our churches and right in the centre of our city, that was supposed to be made into a park. The Church built an office block on it and is now renting shop and office space. Another example is a large, beautifully made building that was donated many years ago by one of the richest men in our city, to be used as a youth hostel for all the students from the countryside who were studying at our university and who couldn't afford to pay rent etc. This building was used as a youth hostel for many years but two years ago the students that were living there were asked to move out and now half the building has been renovated into luxurious quarters for our new Metropolitan and the other half is in the process of becoming what? Yes, office space that will be rented out......

Donations from the faithful are not always used as they should be. A friend who is a priest told my husband that donations to the church have nearly stopped, mainly because of anger at the second example of misuse that I cited above.

Our churches should be beautiful examples of our love of God, tastefully decorated, and as Olga I think said, using high quality materials. But, excesses should be avoided and greed should not cloud the judgement of those who manage land, buildings and money that were originally donated for purposes other than those they are used for.

Moderation in all things.

What do we personally do to help those in need? Each of us does what he can, where he can, dependent on conditions that exist in the areas where each of us live. We can all do more of course, starting with me......

[Andreas Moran]

I didn't think any of us was saying that those who can make donations to a church for its building and furnishing should not do so or that their help should not be accepted. I think many of us are saying that extravagant amounts of money spent on gilding and other rich adornment is likely to say more about the donor and amount donated than what goes on in the church. There probably has to be a large and suitably furnished cathedral in any capital or other large city in an Orthodox country. The cathedral in Athens seems appropriate and I don't object to the re-building of Christ the Saviour Cathedral in Moscow. But I don't like to see acres of gold leaf and expensive furnishings in a small provincial monastery just because some local bandit liked to throw his money around, even in the direction of the local monastery.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

There have been some interesting comments in this thread. I think the most significant remarks, from a theological point of view, came in Fr David's initial response (to which I'll come in a moment), and there have also been some interesting following questions and responses. It might be worth saying that arguing against extravagence is somewhat redundant: something extravagent is intrinsically unhealthy, as a succumbing to the passions rather than their right conversion. This is not to say that everything gold is extravagent -- far from it. But 'extravagence' as a category is, almost by definition, 'too much of something'. Just where that line may be is rather a contextual issue. What might be extravagent in one setting might be quite natural in another (a point Andreas made recently).

But to the theology of the question, Fr David's words. The general question having been asked, 'How does a lavish church help the poor?', he wrote:


It doesn't - at least not directly. The Church building itself is an icon of heaven and when we stand in it, we are transported from here to there. [...] It is much easier, when praying, to be moved in spirit into the Kingdom of Heaven. This allows the prayer to be much deeper and much more heartfelt. Does this help the poor ? Not directly, but as we all are filled more and more with the grace of the Holy Spirit (which is accomplished primarily by our prayers) then we each care for the poor more and more. So indirectly, a beautiful temple does help the poor.

One way to help the world is to give money, and the Church must be (and is) attentive to this. Or, to give other physical alms (resources, time, materials, etc.). But this is one way of helping. Another is through transformative prayer, which is what takes place in the Christian temple. Only with a heart transfigured in Christ, can Christian care for the world ever be held up to Christ's own words: 'the poor you have with you always'. His concern at the time he spoke these words was not to show that almsgiving and care for the poor was wrong (far from it!), but that the world will always create its poor. We will create our poor. And if the focus of the world is only on itself and the products of its work, this cycle will never change. But Christ transforms all existence, and joined to Christ, the person can become part of that redemption of the world -- including its poor, its weak, its hurt, its angry. Its acts of almsgiving can take on new meaning, drawn up in the life of Christ himself.

Church's are beautiful, and ought to be made beautiful, because they are places of heavenly worship, heavenly communion. Every help that leads to the deepening of that communion should be embraced, because it is only this communion that will ever save the world.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Andreas Moran]

Fr Dcn Matthew wrote:
And if the focus of the world is only on itself and the products of its work, this cycle will never change. But Christ transforms all existence, and joined to Christ, the person can become part of that redemption of the world -- including its poor, its weak, its hurt, its angry. Its acts of almsgiving can take on new meaning, drawn up in the life of Christ himself.

My point about the local bandit is that such giving is of the world, not as a demonstration of love for God, and so, like Cain's gift, unacceptable to God. That is one reason why, I think, the adornment I was referring to looks and feels wrong.


Church's are beautiful, and ought to be made beautiful, because they are places of heavenly worship, heavenly communion.

Fr Dcn Matthew here makes two separate points. First, heavenly worship can make a church beautiful, as in the case of St John's chapel in Essex. Secondly, a church ought to be made visually beautiful for the reason he gives. It seems to me that the first point refers to grace; the second to the desirability of a church's being made beautiful so that its physical appearance is a spiritual complement to heavenly worship. What makes a church beautiful is the spirit in which the building is made, furnished and decorated, and the spirit in which divine services are held. Where the priest and the people prepare themselves and worship in spirit and in truth and the church complements that spirit, there will be beauty. I feel that when one encounters real beauty in a church, one is really experiencing grace. Aesthetic beauty will not save: the beauty of grace will.

[Andreas Moran]

It occurs to me that something similar can be said about icons. A simple icon might may be made very special by association with great holiness. I'm thinking of the icon of the Mother of God of Tenderness. It would appear to be a rather weakly sentimental icon done in westernised style except that its association with St Seraphim of Sarov has given it a signficance it would never have had otherwise. Equally, there are many icons which are powerful to induce prayer because of their great beauty.

[Rick H.]

A Beautiful Building or a Mocker of the Poor?

I appreciate very much Father David's initial answer to Justin's question, as I do Andreas's repeated attempts to provide a balanced answer. To borrow from Andreas's words above, I would like to suggest that it is only heavenly worship which makes any building beautiful.

I really have no problem with how ornate the building in which a Christian assembly worships is. Usually, this is reflected by the past or present affluence of the souls which have attended or do attend. My preference is actually for a more simple/natural place of worship, and less ornate (in terms of building materials and gold and silver). But, we are not all the same in this area. Herman's building sounds very attractive to me. I saw a picture somewhere recently, maybe it was from a link supplied by someone here? It was of a building in Africa, I think. It was not as nice as my garden shed. It had rough walls, no windows, a dirt floor, and a poorly fitting galvanized sheet metal roof. But, it was full of African Orthodox worshipping, and from where I stand, the souls in that photo and their worship made that building one of the most beautiful Orthodox buildings I have ever seen.

And, when I looked at that photo, I was reminded that buildings come and go, but not people.

It is only heavenly worship that makes any building beautiful in any given generation, whereby it may at least indirectly help the poor (if not directly). There are different ways the poor can be helped.

However, in this sense one building that was most Beautiful seventy years ago could be very ugly today (even if it was perfectly maintained and there is no difference aesthetically or architecturally.

And, vice-versa, along these same lines, even if polished, and shined immaculately, a building that is very Beautiful today, may become ugly and a mocker of the poor, the alienated, and the humiliated in the next generation. And, what would this have to do with an historic Orthodox Christianity?

In Christ,
Rick

mock (mk)
v. mocked, mock·ing, mocks
v.tr.
1. To treat with ridicule or contempt; deride.
2.
a. To mimic, as in sport or derision. See Synonyms at ridicule.
b. To imitate; counterfeit.
3. To frustrate the hopes of; disappoint.
v.intr.
To express scorn or ridicule; jeer: They mocked at the idea.
n.
1.
a. The act of mocking.
b. Mockery; derision: said it merely in mock.
2. An object of scorn or derision.
3. An imitation or a counterfeit.
adj.
Simulated; false; sham: a mock battle.
adv.
In an insincere or pretending manner: mock sorrowful.

[Andreas Moran]

I have heard it said in Russia that churches were made as splendid as possible because it gave the worshippers a sense of the beauty and splendour of the Kingdom of Heaven, and the clergy's vestments made them look not of this world. For the poor especially, being in church lifted them from the daily grind of life.

[Nina]

http://saints.oca.org/IconDirectory/XSM/february/0213simeonmyrrhgusher.jpgVenerable Stephen (In Monasticism Simeon), the Myrrhgusher and Prince of Serbia

Saint Simeon the Myrrh-Gusher, King of Serbia Stephen Nemanya was the Great Zhupan of Serbia, and lived during the twelfth century. The saint toiled much for his fatherland: he united a large portion of the Serbian lands, and strove for the political independence of his country from the Byzantine Empire. In his zeal for the Orthodox Church, he defended his nation against heresy and false teaching.

At the age of eighty, Stephen went to Mt. Athos, where his son St Sava (January 12), was glorified by the holiness of his life. Together they restored the desolate Hilandar monastery, to which monks from various lands began to gather.

St Simeon was a great ascetic and wise guide for the monks. He died on February 13, 1200, and his relics began to exude myrrh. St Sava transported his father's relics back to Serbia, and placed them in a church of the Most Holy Theotokos at the River Studenitsa. St Simeon had richly adorned this church while he was still ruler of Serbia.

[Lance Goldsberry]

Hrm. Bad thread title, and this might be in the wrong section, sorry. I looked everywhere. :P

Why is it that Orthodox churches are so lavishly decorated? Hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on decor, icons, gold, etc. This confuses me. Why not just a few simple icons, a "poor" church, and all the proceeds actually going to the poor and needy? How does decorating the church lavishly help those in need?

Thanks!

~justin

Dear Justin,

I cannot say I am desperately poor, but I have been unemployed most this past year, and have been strapped financially, and I have had to accept gifts of private charity to get by at times.

Even though I have needed help, it has also been true that I find great solace in the beauty of my Church. Sunday morning is the high point of my week, and I having experienced such soul-crushing disappointment some weeks (not getting a job, not getting an interview), I have found attending the Divine Liturgy and drinking in the Iconography and the sights and sounds of the liturgy, and the proclamation of the Word of God, very healing. In fact, there are some weeks that the Divine Liturgy is the only part of my week that makes sense. This is not merely the opiate of the people, like Marx says. This is truly the work of the life giving Holy Spirit.

I guess what I am saying is, that not all of our needs are material. Of course, as the Hebrew prophets indicate, our worship would be a farce if the Church had no concern for the poor and oppressed. But thanks be to God, in most cases, I find that it does, and can tell you most of my benefactors this past year have been believers.

Hope this helps.

Blessings,

Lance

[Marie C.]

Hrm. Bad thread title, and this might be in the wrong section, sorry. I looked everywhere. :P

Why is it that Orthodox churches are so lavishly decorated? Hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on decor, icons, gold, etc. This confuses me. Why not just a few simple icons, a "poor" church, and all the proceeds actually going to the poor and needy? How does decorating the church lavishly help those in need?

Thanks!

~justin


Wow Justin, I wish I could see one of these churches your describing. There aren't any Orthodox churches as you describe were I live (south Louisiana, the Katrina devastated area). My own church is a small building behind the priests home. We do the best we can with what we have, which is what poor churches do.

But, praise be to God, we just recieved a gift from a friend of the churches, an Epitaphios. And just in time for Pascha. It is quite a blessing to us all, as our small church could not have afforded such a beautiful blessed item.

I have been trying to make the hanging lights (?lampadas?)for some of our icons at the altar. I can only imagine what a beautiful fully adorned Orthodox church looks like. Be blessed that you have actually seen one.

[Anna]

Why not just a few simple icons, a "poor" church, and all the proceeds actually going to the poor and needy? How does decorating the church lavishly help those in need?

This statement falls in line with those typically encountered when dealing with Protestant thought, no insult intended. The reforms arising out of the excesses of Roman Catholicism included a reaction to the adornment of church buildings. So, it's not an unexpected question and/or mindset from someone whose experience is outside Orthodoxy.

And you are quite right in quoting St. John Chrysostom's writings. "Do not, therefore, adorn the church and ignore your afflicted brother, for he is the most precious temple of all."

You won't get any arguments from me there. Let's not ignore the poor while we adorn the Church--let's do both.

We don't limit our prayers to just requests for those in need, we spend time worshipping God, lavishing upon him such praise as our mortal tongues can utter. So, can it not follow that we should give to the poor, and yet also adorn to the house of worship in a manner that presents God with a sacrifice of the best...not the poorest, simply because it is saves more money for the poor?

But laying aside a debate, let us instead look to the example God himself set for us.

Did God, when he was handing out the instructions on construction of the temple tell them to decorate the Holy of Holies with a wooden box for the Ark of the Covenant and instruct the priests to wear vestments of coarse cloth so that more money could be given to the poor they definitely had with them? No. There were considerable gold, jewels, and fine fabric placed throughout. He ordered the best of everything. This was to be a house of worship, a place that would reflect the beauty of heaven. Everything in it served a symbolic as well as functional purpose.

Should we not then follow this example--not to sinful excess and exclusion, but to give God the finest of sacrifice--and to the poor as well?

Just my poor opinion

[Amy]

Dear Justin,

I cannot say I am desperately poor, but I have been unemployed most this past year, and have been strapped financially, and I have had to accept gifts of private charity to get by at times.

Even though I have needed help, it has also been true that I find great solace in the beauty of my Church. Sunday morning is the high point of my week, and I having experienced such soul-crushing disappointment some weeks (not getting a job, not getting an interview), I have found attending the Divine Liturgy and drinking in the Iconography and the sights and sounds of the liturgy, and the proclamation of the Word of God, very healing. In fact, there are some weeks that the Divine Liturgy is the only part of my week that makes sense. This is not merely the opiate of the people, like Marx says. This is truly the work of the life giving Holy Spirit.

I guess what I am saying is, that not all of our needs are material. Of course, as the Hebrew prophets indicate, our worship would be a farce if the Church had no concern for the poor and oppressed. But thanks be to God, in most cases, I find that it does, and can tell you most of my benefactors this past year have been believers.

Hope this helps.

Blessings,

Lance


May God bless you, dear Lance. Your post really touched my heart. I would completely agree that not all of our needs are material. I, too, have experienced the healing grace of Christ in the beauty of His house.

It's been interesting to me (and in conversation with Protestant friends who do not understand my conversion) to note that how we adorn our churches is also a reflection of how we regard God's sanctuary. I think the key is "our best", the intention of the heart.

If the church in my community can afford only two icons on bare walls and candlelight, then praise God!
However, I think we can become unfairly biased in a sense when it comes to rich adornment. If "our best" includes a dozen stained-glassed windows, a full iconostasis, rich incense, etc., then praise God! Will there not be streets of gold in heaven? Would anyone question His use of richness there?

[Sarah Wagner-Wassen]

It does seem like most Orthodox "goods" are prohibitively expensive. Cassocks are expensive, vestments are expensive, chalices are expensive, icons are expensive, etc. But even so, I prefer these expensive things for two reasons:

1. Because they are real. Mass-produced cheap goods are overwhelming western culture. When I go to church I can (usually) get away from this impersonal chintz.

2. Because they are produced my master craftsmen. Artisans are a dying breed in the modern western world (because of #1) and fine artisans are worth their wages. Sure, a prokomedia table I saw recently was listed in the $10,000 range, but it was obvious that a master artisan had painstakingly hand-carved the delicate relief work in fine rich hardwood. Sure, it is expensive, but it is also absolutely beautiful. Most ecclesiastical tailors and iconographers are not in their trade for the money. When all is said and done, between cost of materials and man-hours for production, many of them make less than minimum wage. So though I may skimp and save my own meager income in order to buy their goods, they are worthy to be paid every last cent.

I agree that we should try to avoid the "baroque" look, it looks gaudy and extravagant (though usually most "baroque" items today are actually cheaply made). The aesthetics of church should point one towards the wonder and beauty of God. Baroque and like styles are very "Look at ME!" in their presentation.

The biggest expense of churches today is not the aesthetics however, it is utilities. If we all really wanted to give more money to the poor the first thing to go should be the heating and cooling system. Ancient churches didn't have them now did they? I'm only half joking here. But can you just imagine the row that would erupt if you told parishioners that they should plan on wearing their coat in church all winter?

[Denys Kosovsky]

Hey everyone,

St John of Kronstadt says that the clergy are meant by God to be adorned in beautiful clothing. Also there is the custom of giving God the best. It's like when we have a garden and we give the best fruits away. Or when we deal in cups, but give the golden chalice to the Church. God deserves the best from us. St John of K says that when you share everything with God He shares everything with you. If you had to give your father a present would you give him a cheap, artless present? So how much more bountiful you have to be with your heavenly Father.

Also, thanks for a number of people saying that Church decoration is an expression of LOVE. That's right, if it was a matter of building a garish city of casinos in the middle of the desert then we have all the money in the world, but if it is one little gym-sized church in a megacity we suddenly run out of money. We spend on ourselves what we would not give God. And remember that God gives more than a hundredfold in return. This is not to say that we should give things with an intention of using this, but simply that if we encourage the love of God in any measure we get infinitely more back. Literally.

Saint Isaac said God is not just, He is supremely good and supremely generous.

In Russia they had a tradition where the family icon was prayed to for generations. Every family would lovingly adorn it. Some of the icons themselves and their decorations were worth a fortune. In a fire the most precious thing to save would the icon!

I know that there is a tradition of giving to the Church. Why? Because it is bountiful. God loves you back. The tenth was introduced to help with this, and it carries immense gifts. But God loves voluntary contributions the best of all, hence if you give even more...

Also, so what if the churches are beautiful and richly decorated, this does not mean that a lot of money has been spent. I would think the other 'religions' spend more. Also, often churches are desperately poor but still remain beautiful, and paper icons (I have paper ones) are so beautiful sometimes. I have yet to see a lavishly decorated church. Ever. (To my taste).

For instance, the Vladimir Theotokos Icon is lavishly decorated, but it has saved Russia so many times. How much is too much to spend on it? Does all the world have the money to pay for it?

Myself, I would love it if all the orthodox churches became beautiful on the outside. It is not easy to convert people when our churches are hard to notice even when you are standing next to them.

What happened to pride in our Lord and our Church? The Indians are building statues of their man bigger than any other statue in the world. The Japanese decorate their buildings in thorough detail. The Romans have incredibly opulent buildings. No wonder to tourist comes to see St Serge's relics in the Lavra but everyone goes to Rome to see Roman relics.

We should not readily put a price on Church decorations. We should not give as little as possible, but as much as we can, as much as we can, it does not matter if give a penny or a million, so long as give as much as we can. Remember the widow?

I think if we treated God better, we would notice the effect.

More experienced Christians know that there are factors which affect our worldly prosperity. Respecting parents decides on our success and wealth in life. Seriously. And so does charity. And so do Church donations.

Sorry that it turned out so long

Denys

[Andreas Moran]

A new church has been built just across from our apartment block here in Moscow. The crypt is now open for services and we went there this last weekend. The church is dedicated to the Reigning Icon of the Mother of God (Derzhavnaya). I don't know what the upper church will be like but the crypt church has an unusual feature - the icons on the wooden iconostasis are set in ceramic frames as are the icons on the pillars around the crypt. I haven't seen a ceramic iconostasis before but it looks alright and not baroque or lavish.

[Olga]

Though carved wooden iconostases are generally the norm, iconostases of marble or other decorative masonry are also sometimes found. One such iconostasis was in dark green marble, with milky streaks. Quite impressive.

[Misha]

Two prominent greek writers Alexandros Papadiamantis (probably the most significant greek writer) and Fotis Kontoglou,who were faithful to the orthodox tradition , have written against the sumptuous churches.

I have to confess that i ve lived my best orthodox moments in small,humble byzantine churches in Mt Athos and elsewhere.

Being in big (and sometime enormous) churches makes me feel a bit uncomfortably.

I m sure that if st John Chrysostom was in charge he would share the disposable money with those in need.He has done something similar.

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head."Mat. 8,20

[Paul C.]

Hi everyone in this forum. I hope I am doing this right.

I have noticed something about spending money on my church parish. Whenever I spend money on something for the church like donating a couple pounds of incense, my bank account gets larger. I actually spend much less money on trivial things and entertainment and it makes a big difference to my bank balance.

Has anyone else noticed anything like that too?

Paul C.

[Paul Cowan]

Yes, I have also. When I tithe from my heart, I seem to get it all back in spades. This is actually the only place in the Bible that God tells us to test him.


Malachi 3:8 “ Will a man rob God?
Yet you have robbed Me!
But you say,

‘ In what way have we robbed You?’
In tithes and offerings.
9 You are cursed with a curse,
For you have robbed Me,
Even this whole nation.
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,

“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it. 11 “ And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes,
So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground,
Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,”
Says the LORD of hosts;
12 And all nations will call you blessed,
For you will be a delightful land,”
Says the LORD of hosts.
The People Complain Harshly

Paul

[James Haddad]

What a great thread. Two thoughts.

The most beautiful Church I know is located in a orphanage in Byblos' Lebanon. The roof is one step better than scrap metal and looks like it could blow away. The is gray painted cemented with a rug or two thrown down on it. It's about as poor as a church comes. But, it is more full of the Holy Spirit when all the little orphans and the Nuns are singing the Lord's Prayer together during the liturgy.

Second. I really liked the idea of cutting back on some of the utilities. Knock down the heat a couple degrees. Turn back the a/c in the summer. These sorts of things, not just will it save money, but it's also good for the the rest of God's creation (the environment). Of course, we dont have to go crazy, I sang during liturgies where I have seen my breath with every note I sang.